Vinatieri

[FireJimCaldwell]

The money argument is valid. We'd save $2.7 million on the cap this season and next by releasing him. But that's not an exorbitant price tag for a good kicker. And he's still a good kicker. So if you're getting rid of him, it's not because of production, or even age. It's because of money. He represents 2% of the salary cap. If you want that $2.7 million for another player, who are you replacing him with that's going to have the impact that a good kicker can have?

And as I said earlier, the argument that we're years away from contending isn't really a good reason to get rid of a player who can help us win games. The kicker plays a small role, but it's very important. Again, the Broncos don't make the playoffs last season without Matt Prater's leg. There's always a need for a good kicker, whether you think your team is a contender or not.

By the way, I need to go bleach my brain after that Rosie O'Donnell comment. Some of us think in pictures, man.

Sorry for the bleach, but at times I have to think of an analogy to help drive the point home.

At least I don't provide photographic evidence.

Oh wait

[Creekside]

Let me put it like this:

Adam Vinatieri is better than any college kicker, and any free agent. He's one of the best kickers in the league. He's not declining, he's actually had 2 productive seasons. He's the most clutch kicker of all time. He's still got a lot left in the tank.

Now, with that being said, you want to get rid of him because you want youth. I'm sorry, but that's very silly.

...............I want a good, young kicker two years from now....I'm sure that's what you want as well...I just believe it's better to start looking sooner than later...

[Superman]

...there are always exceptions to the rule......but even if he plays out his contract for the next two years, why not get a kicker who could probably make 85% of kicks under a rookie contract for 4 years?

The kicker position is an exception to the rule. Barring injury, a kicker can produce at a high level at 40 and 41 years old. I'm not advocating signing him beyond his current deal. I don't think he'll be kicking at 47 like Andersen was. Even if he was a free agent this year, I would be all for moving on. But I don't see the problem with having him on the roster. Age isn't a legitimate argument because he's still productive.

And to answer your question, the "why not" is because we already have a good kicker who can make 85% of his kicks. And we probably already have a replacement for him on the roster in McAfee, who was also a place kicker in college. I'm not interested in placing a premium on replacing him, especially not when we don't really need to replace him.

[Superman]

Sorry for the bleach, but at times I have to think of an analogy to help drive the point home.

At least I don't provide photographic evidence.

Oh wait

Be glad I'm not still a mod. You'd be hasta right now.

[dgambill]

I think we already have his replacement in Pat McAfee. He's shown that he has the leg to be a good kicker.

Just because he has a massive leg to me doesn't mean he is the heir to Vinatieri. Look, if you want to think we are going to the playoffs with this team in the next couple years that is fine. Irsay has even said this is a rebuilding process and will take several years. I don't see Vinny still being here after his current contract or possibly even still playing after the next two years. By year 3 we could be playing playoff football and yet Vinny wouldn't even have a contract...likely meaning we will have a brand new kicker. Perhaps we get a veteren...or perhaps we draft or pick up one now and get him battle tested. Really what bugs me SO FREAKING MUCH around here is everyone is so quick to defend cutting Peyton Manning but you CAN'T TOUCH Freeney or Vinatieri or this player or that. All of them are elite at their positions...all up there in age...all have big contracts yet we can only win if we get rid of one. Look...to me once you commit to rebuilding then you go at it 100%. Else I would rather have cut Freeney and kept Peyton. Holding onto guys that hurt our cap and don't fit into our long term plans don't make a lot of sense to me. Perhaps the organization sees some value in them but I certainly don't outside any trade value they can give us. Perhaps keeping Vinny this year while we bring in another kicker to help train or the same with Freeney ok..but these guys have expiring contracts and won't likely be on our team by the time we are winning so I say cut bait...and find the next stud.

[Superman]

Although he did impress everyone with that video of him kicking the 65 yard + kicks, the fact of the matter is is that in college he only had a 73% FG percentage, and the farthest kick he kicked was 52 yards. I think there are better options out there, whether it be in the draft or FA.

Either way, I rather ride Adam out then dump him.

In college, he was pulling double duty. He was considered a better kicking prospect than punting prospect. If he were dedicated as a place kicker/kickoff specialist, I think he'd be a viable option.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Be glad I'm not still a mod. You'd be hasta right now.

No reason for that.

You said you already had the bleach... There could have been worse pictures posted..

[lollygagger8]

Pat McAfee can kick 70 yarders....just sayin

[UndecidedFrog]

AV is in the middle of his 3 year contract, and has a cap hit of $3.9MM for each of this upcoming season and the next.

AV's dead cap space, should we cut him prior to June 1, would be $2.4MM.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Be glad I'm not still a mod. You'd be hasta right now.

Since there is a certain faction of "insert insult of your choice here" posters that seem to be taking turns at reporting every one of my posts, I did remove it.

[Superman]

Just because he has a massive leg to me doesn't mean he is the heir to Vinatieri. Look, if you want to think we are going to the playoffs with this team in the next couple years that is fine. Irsay has even said this is a rebuilding process and will take several years. I don't see Vinny still being here after his current contract or possibly even still playing after the next two years. By year 3 we could be playing playoff football and yet Vinny wouldn't even have a contract...likely meaning we will have a brand new kicker. Perhaps we get a veteren...or perhaps we draft or pick up one now and get him battle tested. Really what bugs me SO FREAKING MUCH around here is everyone is so quick to defend cutting Peyton Manning but you CAN'T TOUCH Freeney or Vinatieri or this player or that. All of them are elite at their positions...all up there in age...all have big contracts yet we can only win if we get rid of one. Look...to me once you commit to rebuilding then you go at it 100%. Else I would rather have cut Freeney and kept Peyton. Holding onto guys that hurt our cap and don't fit into our long term plans don't make a lot of sense to me. Perhaps the organization sees some value in them but I certainly don't outside any trade value they can give us. Perhaps keeping Vinny this year while we bring in another kicker to help train or the same with Freeney ok..but these guys have expiring contracts and won't likely be on our team by the time we are winning so I say cut bait...and find the next stud.

This has nothing to do with Peyton Manning or Dwight Freeney, or any other player.

More than any other position, you can look at your kicker and his value in a vacuum. Is he still productive? If so, then you keep him, end of story.

When it comes to the other players, especially Manning and Freeney, the money becomes a prohibitive issue. In Freeney's case, $14 million can have an immediate impact on your team's ability to win games. Manning's $28 million bonus represented a sizable investment in his future, which was uncertain. In Vinatieri's case, $2.7 million probably isn't going to get you an impact player. And then there are the scheme issues to take into consideration for Freeney. Much more complicated than evaluating whether or not to keep your veteran kicker. Either he can kick or he can't. Vinatieri can still kick.

And again, people keep saying that just because we're rebuilding, we have no need for a good kicker. That's absolutely preposterous. A good kicker can realistically be the difference between a playoff berth and a top five draft pick. And beyond that, if we get this thing right, we don't have to be cellar dwellers. We can challenge in our division right away. Whether we do or not remains to be seen, but I'm not in favor of getting rid of cost-effective players who are still productive. Our long-term plan doesn't need to preclude us keeping good players.

[Superman]

No reason for that.

You said you already had the bleach... There could have been worse pictures posted..

Since there is a certain faction of "insert insult of your choice here" posters that seem to be taking turns at reporting every one of my posts, I did remove it.

I was just joking. I don't think anyone who would be taken seriously would have reported that post. But whatever. All in good fun.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I was just joking. I don't think anyone who would be taken seriously would have reported that post. But whatever. All in good fun.

I know, I agree. Unfortunately some have an agenda.

[Andy]

In college, he was pulling double duty. He was considered a better kicking prospect than punting prospect. If he were dedicated as a place kicker/kickoff specialist, I think he'd be a viable option.

So you're saying he wasn't that good because he was kicking and punting. He would be kicking and punting in the NFL, so you would think he wont be a great kicker. It would also be too risky to move him to K and draft or sign a new punter. We've never seen him kick only. Let him stick to punting and kickoffs.

[Andy]

...............I want a good, young kicker two years from now....I'm sure that's what you want as well...I just believe it's better to start looking sooner than later...

For starters, there are good kickers in every draft, there is not that once in a lifetime kicker. You could also find a good kicker in the FA. Once Adam retires, which could be in 5 years, not 2 years, we should start looking then, either in the FA or through the draft. Don't worry about the kicker spot now, since we have a great piece there that is still performing at a high level. Even in 2 years from now, I still think Adam will be performing at a pretty high level. Keep Adam, worry about a new kicker when he retires.

[Superman]

So you're saying he wasn't that good because he was kicking and punting. He would be kicking and punting in the NFL, so you would think he wont be a great kicker. It would also be too risky to move him to K and draft or sign a new punter. We've never seen him kick only. Let him stick to punting and kickoffs.

I wouldn't be in favor of having him kick and punt. I'm saying that I think we should look at him as our new kicker when the time comes, and if we think he can hack it, we should move him over. He's indicated many times that he wants to be a full-time kicker. I wouldn't be surprised to see him test the waters when his contract is up.

[gspdx]

It's like Rosie O'Donnell in the newest Victoria Secret outfit of the month.

Not a fair analogy.

Adam was once the best kicker in the league.

Rosie was never the best anything...

[FireJimCaldwell]

Not a fair analogy.

Adam was once the best kicker in the league.

Rosie was never the best anything...

Not the part of the analogy I was getting at.

Rosie in that out fit has minimal benefit.

[gspdx]

Not the part of the analogy I was getting at. Rosie in that out fit has minimal benefit.

You are willing to use the word minimal? You are too nice to Rosie.

[Creekside]

AV is in the middle of his 3 year contract, and has a cap hit of $3.9MM for each of this upcoming season and the next.

AV's dead cap space, should we cut him prior to June 1, would be $2.4MM.

....if he were cut this year would his contract generate the same dead cap hit for 2013?

[dgambill]

This has nothing to do with Peyton Manning or Dwight Freeney, or any other player.

More than any other position, you can look at your kicker and his value in a vacuum. Is he still productive? If so, then you keep him, end of story.

When it comes to the other players, especially Manning and Freeney, the money becomes a prohibitive issue. In Freeney's case, $14 million can have an immediate impact on your team's ability to win games. Manning's $28 million bonus represented a sizable investment in his future, which was uncertain. In Vinatieri's case, $2.7 million probably isn't going to get you an impact player. And then there are the scheme issues to take into consideration for Freeney. Much more complicated than evaluating whether or not to keep your veteran kicker. Either he can kick or he can't. Vinatieri can still kick.

And again, people keep saying that just because we're rebuilding, we have no need for a good kicker. That's absolutely preposterous. A good kicker can realistically be the difference between a playoff berth and a top five draft pick. And beyond that, if we get this thing right, we don't have to be cellar dwellers. We can challenge in our division right away. Whether we do or not remains to be seen, but I'm not in favor of getting rid of cost-effective players who are still productive. Our long-term plan doesn't need to preclude us keeping good players.

Sorry I didn't mean to direct the second part directly at you. Still...what precludes us from getting a really good kicker?? Why if sign a new kicker can he not be just as good as Vinny today...not 3...5..10 years ago. Point is there comes a time to invest in a good kicker. Vinny has two years left. I don't necessarily mean we have to cut vinny today but we have to look at transitioning. By the time Vinny's contract is up we likely will be looking at a team that is dangerously close to making the playoffs (i hope). I would much rather have a kicker coming along then suddenly be looking for that piece to the puzzle. While Vinny is great paying that kind of money for a kicker that won't put us over the top any time soon seems luxurious. Remember we got Vinny to make kicks come playoff time to get us to the Super Bowl. He has done that but won't be ever again. By the time we get there he won't be around. Sure Vinny may kick 85% effectively. But I would be happy with someone kicking 80% at a fraction of the salary. Look..I just think we should be looking at other options....heck if Pat is the man then why not have him doing it right now...but to be paying someone 3.7 million dollars...more than what we pay meaningful every down players on a team that has WAY more needs on 99% of the game than the upgrade we get which is minimal over someone else for 1% of the plays. What I am saying is the opportunity of having better position players for that salary on a team that VERY badly needs upgrades at position players is way greater than having a small upgrade at kicker who only plays for a fraction of the plays. It just seems very costly to have such an expensive kicker who makes marginally more kicks than the avg kicker in the league for a team that is worst in the league. We lost 1/2 our games by 10 or more points last year and several by 3 touchdowns or more. The kicker is not going to help us that much...his salary to sign better players could. Look...NE let Adam go...and they replaced him with someone that has been every bit as good and used that extra money to sign FAs. We are the worst team in the NFL..we are not 1 kicker away from winning the Super Bowl like we were 7 years ago. He is a luxury we can not afford right now IMO. Draft a replacement late or sign a UDFA or a someone who will save us some money. When we are competing for championships then we can revisit the kicker position.

[FireJimCaldwell]

You are willing to use the word minimal? You are too nice to Rosie.

I try to be nice to everyone... yet some prevent that happening

[FireJimCaldwell]

....if he were cut this year would his contract generate the same dead cap hit for 2013?

Traded/Cut Pre 6/1
2,400,000 2012 Dead Cap Space
1,500,000 2012 Cap Savings
3,900,000 2013 Cap Savings

If traded/cut post 6/1
1,200,000 2012 Dead Cap Space
1,200,000 2013 Dead Cap Space
2,700,000 2012 Cap Savings
2,700,000 2013 Cap Savings

[jvan1973]

Is he a good kicker? No doubt.

Will he be utilized any time soon for it to matter? not very likely.

You know deep down he was wanting to be a member of "The Castaways". So he could go to a team where his kicks have playoff implications.

I know McaFee wants to be a kicker/punter. This seems like a perfect year to find out if he is capable. He is West Virginias all time leading scorer and third all time in the big east for FG's made

[Creekside]

Traded/Cut Pre 6/1
2,400,000 2012 Dead Cap Space
1,500,000 2012 Cap Savings
3,900,000 2013 Cap Savings

If traded/cut post 6/1
1,200,000 2012 Dead Cap Space
1,200,000 2013 Dead Cap Space
2,700,000 2012 Cap Savings
2,700,000 2013 Cap Savings

...............thanks for the info.....cap savings for 2012 is minimal (but could be usefull if Freeney's contract stays as is).....2013 cap savings is significant.....In my opinion Adam Vinitieri is, right now, a slightly above average field goal kicker who's release would be beneficial to the long term plans of the team....

[braveheartcolt]

Cut him. With all the TD's Luck is going to throw, a UDFA is all we need.

[bWild]

Just thinking out loud....why is Adam still on the roster with all the house cleaning?....he's old, his contract must be big (for a kicker), he's had injury problems in recent years....a decent, young, cheap kicker could be drafted late...why not get one with one of the three 7th round picks?.....Colts currently have the pick for Mr. Irrelevant....That's where the Chiefs drafted their good young kicker a few years ago....

At Kicker it's not about age, contract, or anything except consitancy. Why do you think there are kickers that play into their 40's? Nobody wants to wait for their Kicker to develop, they wants results now.

[vinatierifan4]

But Vinny can't kick more than a 45yd FG in Madden...

yeah he can. just aim the ball down farther. he can knock it down from 53 or so;)

[Creekside]

At Kicker it's not about age, contract, or anything except consitancy. Why do you think there are kickers that play into their 40's? Nobody wants to wait for their Kicker to develop, they wants results now.

....after NE let Vinitieri leave, they brought in rookie Gostkowski who did well and is still their kicker. In 2007 the Packers drafted Mason Crosby in the 6th round who made 80% his first year and is still in the team. In 2008 Miami brought in UFA rookie Dan Carpenter who made 84% his first year. In 2009 Chiefs drafted Mr. Irrelevant Ryan Succop who made 86% his first year and just signed a new contract with the Chiefs. Last year the Cowboys signed UFA Dan Bailey who made 86% his first year..he was 21 for 23 between 30 and 50 Yards and 2-4 beyond 50 yds....

[dgambill]

Traded/Cut Pre 6/1
2,400,000 2012 Dead Cap Space
1,500,000 2012 Cap Savings
3,900,000 2013 Cap Savings

If traded/cut post 6/1
1,200,000 2012 Dead Cap Space
1,200,000 2013 Dead Cap Space
2,700,000 2012 Cap Savings
2,700,000 2013 Cap Savings

Looks like if we cut him after 6/1 he would save us more money this year because his cap hit wouldn't be as bad this year because we would spread it out to next year (when we aren't so close to the cap) We would get savings this year allowing us to get closer to the cap. If we aren't restructuring or trading Freeney I see this as a likely alternative. Either way this won't happen til after 6/1 it looks.

[Warhorse]

He's a kicker. Morten Andersen kicked at a high level well into his 40s. Vinatieri kicked at a high level the past two seasons.

Next.

Would someone please post the vid of Tony D saying "Money".

[Creekside]

Looks like if we cut him after 6/1 he would save us more money this year because his cap hit wouldn't be as bad this year because we would spread it out to next year (when we aren't so close to the cap) We would get savings this year allowing us to get closer to the cap. If we aren't restructuring or trading Freeney I see this as a likely alternative. Either way this won't happen til after 6/1 it looks.

...........wow I see your point. This very well may be the answer to my original question. I won't be surprized then to see him cut after 6/1.

[Superman]

....after NE let Vinitieri leave, they brought in rookie Gostkowski who did well and is still their kicker. In 2007 the Packers drafted Mason Crosby in the 6th round who made 80% his first year and is still in the team. In 2008 Miami brought in UFA rookie Dan Carpenter who made 84% his first year. In 2009 Chiefs drafted Mr. Irrelevant Ryan Succop who made 86% his first year and just signed a new contract with the Chiefs. Last year the Cowboys signed UFA Dan Bailey who made 86% his first year..he was 21 for 23 between 30 and 50 Yards and 2-4 beyond 50 yds....

I don't know that the question is whether we can find another kicker. I think the question is more about why we should get rid of our kicker who is pretty good. The most prevalent argument to this point has been that we don't need a good kicker because we aren't going to win very many games. That's nuts, because having a good kicker can actually help you win more games.

If you want to get rid of him to save money, then you have to be aware of the fact that you're not saving very much against the cap this season by getting rid of him, nor does his cap hit represent very much in terms of percentage to the cap.

Also, the examples you note show that if we need to replace Vinatieri after this year or the next because he's not as productive as we need him to be, or because he's a free agent or he decides to retire, we can do so without having to worry very much about who is replacing him. When it's time to replace a kicker, you don't necessarily need a seasoning period.

[Creekside]

I don't know that the question is whether we can find another kicker. I think the question is more about why we should get rid of our kicker who is pretty good. The most prevalent argument to this point has been that we don't need a good kicker because we aren't going to win very many games. That's nuts, because having a good kicker can actually help you win more games.

If you want to get rid of him to save money, then you have to be aware of the fact that you're not saving very much against the cap this season by getting rid of him, nor does his cap hit represent very much in terms of percentage to the cap.

Also, the examples you note show that if we need to replace Vinatieri after this year or the next because he's not as productive as we need him to be, or because he's a free agent or he decides to retire, we can do so without having to worry very much about who is replacing him. When it's time to replace a kicker, you don't necessarily need a seasoning period.

.....I never said we don't need a good kicker....the above examples prove that it is very possible to get a good rookie kicker.......be honest, who would you wrather have on the team right now; Dan Bailey or Adam Vinitieri? Bailey at the beginning of a very promising career under contract at min. wage for next couple of years, or Vinitieri who costs alot more and will need to be replaced soon anyway....

[dgambill]

I don't know that the question is whether we can find another kicker. I think the question is more about why we should get rid of our kicker who is pretty good. The most prevalent argument to this point has been that we don't need a good kicker because we aren't going to win very many games. That's nuts, because having a good kicker can actually help you win more games.

If you want to get rid of him to save money, then you have to be aware of the fact that you're not saving very much against the cap this season by getting rid of him, nor does his cap hit represent very much in terms of percentage to the cap.

Also, the examples you note show that if we need to replace Vinatieri after this year or the next because he's not as productive as we need him to be, or because he's a free agent or he decides to retire, we can do so without having to worry very much about who is replacing him. When it's time to replace a kicker, you don't necessarily need a seasoning period.

I understand. I do feel though that he is costing us too much considering the value he will give us over the next couple years. His contract is very similar to that of our new starting Center or our newly acquired LB/DL Redding or 3 times that of Austin Collie or 4 times that of Pat Angerer. He is worthy of a great contract. Just on a team that will utilize him more...say Baltimore lol. Just saying we might be downgrading but upgrading other areas in my opinion. Also if we are going to be using a new kicker I would rather find out this year and next if he has a flaw then wait a few years when we are in a playoff game or down the stretch to see him choke. I would rather find out all that now before it costs us a season. I just see it as time to move on. He is a great player...it doesn't save us a ton..but we are still over the cap and his contract would get us very close to being under.

[Superman]

.....I never said we don't need a good kicker....the above examples prove that it is very possible to get a good rookie kicker.......be honest, who would you wrather have on the team right now; Dan Bailey or Adam Vinitieri? Bailey at the beginning of a very promising career under contract at min. wage for next couple of years, or Vinitieri who costs alot more and will need to be replaced soon anyway....

I have no interest in Dan Bailey; he's just another kicker. And I'm not putting up a fight for Vinatieri over principle. I just don't get the argument for getting rid of him, especially when we're talking about minimal cap savings.

I can't wrap my mind around the argument that money spent on a good kicker is money wasted, because the next couple of seasons don't matter since we're going to be sooo bad. I keep pointing out that, with the right moves, we don't have to be relegated to the bottom of the league. And having a good kicker who can come through in the clutch can actually help with that. Getting rid of Vinatieri could actually be counter-productive in that regard.

[WithSomeLuck12]

You can make the arguement that vinny has missed some kicks. BUT, in all honesty when was the last kicker to never miss a kick? Billy Cundif was a pro bowl kicker and mised a relatively easy kick against NE. Kickers always miss a kick at some point.

[Superman]

I understand. I do feel though that he is costing us too much considering the value he will give us over the next couple years. His contract is very similar to that of our new starting Center or our newly acquired LB/DL Redding or 3 times that of Austin Collie or 4 times that of Pat Angerer. He is worthy of a great contract. Just on a team that will utilize him more...say Baltimore lol. Just saying we might be downgrading but upgrading other areas in my opinion. Also if we are going to be using a new kicker I would rather find out this year and next if he has a flaw then wait a few years when we are in a playoff game or down the stretch to see him choke. I would rather find out all that now before it costs us a season. I just see it as time to move on. He is a great player...it doesn't save us a ton..but we are still over the cap and his contract would get us very close to being under.

If we're talking about money, let's talk about Dwight Freeney's contract. That's where the real savings are.

And again, it's not that I'm in love with Vinatieri. It's just that I don't think you get rid of good players who are still productive and cost-effective. Even though Vinatieri is a highly paid kicker, he's not choking our cap. And if we find ourselves needed a big kick to win a game (or four) this season, who would we rather have than Vinatieri? This isn't about resigning him. He's already under contract. Just keep him.

[ColtsPRIDE11]

I've got to agree with absolutely everything Superman has said regarding this issue. There is no sound, solid reason to let him go. Keep him. He can win us games this year. And the subtle underlying tone of a kicker is just a kicker and isn't that important other than playoffs is just ridiculous. Just like free throws win basketball games, so do field goals. 3 point is 3 points. Vinitari hasn't showed any sign of slowing down to me, so IMO we keep him.

[Carlos Danger]

I was thinking exactly what the original poster was thinking, but I'm not sure about the details of AV's contract, I know that he is one of the highest paid Colts now. I can see why we'd keep him though. Confidence for the rookie QB and ST players. AV will probably score a ton of points in 2012.

BTW: unrelated... I thought maybe my original name was too offensive, or at least it could be read that way, so I changed it... The forum didn't like the new one and edited it for me so I'm "illa" for the next 30 days. That should be enough time to think of one that is pure genius. Throw suggestions at my profile pg. if you want, but nothing too un-P.C. because I don't want to be stuck as "itch" or "ock" or "ucker" for 30 more....