Irsay was not at fault for moving the colts?

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

Certainly a great point, but those early days teams just went bankrupt and died. For example , the 47-49 Baltimore Colts are not part of the Indy franchise , but the 1953-1983 is. Let’s use the Houston Oilers. Why not just leave that history in Houston and start fresh in Tennessee ? Wouldn’t it be better for Texans fans, who were also Oilers fans, to enjoy that history they watched , rooted for, and were part of ?

Isn’t it better for Warren Moon and Earl Campbell to be celebrated in Houston, the city they played, had relationships with fans, and perhaps lived, or Nashville , where they never played a down ? Same for Kurt Warner and the St Louis Rams ? It creates interesting scenarios. 

I understand that but we can't erase history no matter what scenarios we want to acknowledge. 

You can say the Ravens didn't take the Browns history but it don't erase the history of the Browns becoming the Ravens. 

[The Old Crow]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

I understand that but we can't erase history no matter what scenarios we want to acknowledge. 

You can say the Ravens didn't take the Browns history but it don't erase the history of the Browns becoming the Ravens. 

That is true, that is also part of history. I’m pretty fair minded about this. Let’s say Jim Irsay had moved the Colts to LA. I would also advocate that your 2006 Super Bowl win, your Hall of Famers, etc. stay in Indy, with the hopes you would get another team , or expansion franchise. I would even be for keeping the logo and colors there. 
That’s another thing, logos that don’t make sense. The Colts is about the Preakness Stakes and horse racing in Baltimore. The New Orleans Jazz became the Utah Jazz because of all those great Mormon jazz players out there. 
The point is franchises move because of business purposes, but it can be a lot cleaner as far as the fans go when they do leave. 

[crazycolt1]

23 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

That is true, that is also part of history. I’m pretty fair minded about this. Let’s say Jim Irsay had moved the Colts to LA. I would also advocate that your 2006 Super Bowl win, your Hall of Famers, etc. stay in Indy, with the hopes you would get another team , or expansion franchise. I would even be for keeping the logo and colors there. 
That’s another thing, logos that don’t make sense. The Colts is about the Preakness Stakes and horse racing in Baltimore. The New Orleans Jazz became the Utah Jazz because of all those great Mormon jazz players out there. 
The point is franchises move because of business purposes, but it can be a lot cleaner as far as the fans go when they do leave. 

 

Look, I understand your point of view but no matter how butt hurt fans get you can't erase history. 

Fandom makes people crazy. 

There are still Brooklyn fans who have a grudge over the Dodgers leaving town in 1958. 

All I can say is "get the hades over it". 

[The Old Crow]

13 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

Look, I understand your point of view but no matter how butt hurt fans get you can't erase history. 

Fandom makes people crazy. 

There are still Brooklyn fans who have a grudge over the Dodgers leaving town in 1958. 

All I can say is "get the hades over it". 

I’m fine with it and without grudges. I’m just saying it mucks up the records. It’s two different things. 

[crazycolt1]

16 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

I’m fine with it and without grudges. I’m just saying it mucks up the records. It’s two different things. 

You see no matter what teams move where it still don't change the records. The records are part of the history and only becomes an issue to those fans who don't want to accept it.

The history is still there, it don't disappear and it don't change. 

 Fan is short for fanatic and there is no explanation for that. 

 

[The Old Crow]

12 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

You see no matter what teams move where it still don't change the records. The records are part of the history and only becomes an issue to those fans who don't want to accept it.

The history is still there, it don't disappear and it don't change. 

 Fan is short for fanatic and there is no explanation for that. 

 

In examples , the records do, in fact change. Is Kurt Warner a Los Angelos Ram or a St Louis Ram, in the Hall of Fame. To say he is a Los Angelos Ram is historically incorrect , as he never played a down for the LA Rams. So the HOF is promoting historical inaccuracies. 
I would have never have said this years ago, but I’m glad the Colts moved. It was better for Baltimore, the Irsay’s , and Indy. Now that the Browns are good again , I feel less guilty about what happened to them. The point I’m making is ,franchise history doesn’t jive with actual history. It places players and events in an inaccurate historical context. 

[crazycolt1]

14 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

In examples , the records do, in fact change. Is Kurt Warner a Los Angelos Ram or a St Louis Ram, in the Hall of Fame. To say he is a Los Angelos Ram is historically incorrect , as he never played a down for the LA Rams. So the HOF is promoting historical inaccuracies. 
I would have never have said this years ago, but I’m glad the Colts moved. It was better for Baltimore, the Irsay’s , and Indy. Now that the Browns are good again , I feel less guilty about what happened to them. The point I’m making is ,franchise history doesn’t jive with actual history. It places players and events in an inaccurate historical context. 

Did you forget that Players are not enshrined into the HOF under a designated team? 

 

[The Old Crow]

43 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Did you forget that Players are not enshrined into the HOF under a designated team? 

 

Yes, it’s not like baseball. But the players get designated under cities where they did not play, because of franchise rules, even if they played for multiple teams. The average fan looking at franchise players is left confused that Warren Moon was a Tennessee Titan. 

[The Old Crow]

Let’s put it in terms we can all understand , as far as the HOF. Let’s say for example, the Colts moved to St Louis years from now. Would you, as an Indianapolis Colt fan enjoy seeing Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison under a St Louis Rams Hall of Fame area ? Would you like St Louis hoisting your 2006 Super Bowl banner ? To me, that would be trying to erase the fine history that occurred in Indy. 
Honestly, I don’t like this happening to St Louis and San Diego. Move the team, but leave the history and legacy to the fans and players  that lived it. 

[PrincetonTiger]

10 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

Yes, it’s not like baseball. But the players get designated under cities where they did not play, because of franchise rules, even if they played for multiple teams. The average fan looking at franchise players is left confused that Warren Moon was a Tennessee Titan. 

That is wrong 

  Players are enshrined.by the team that they played for not the current franchise

[The Old Crow]

Just now, PrincetonTiger said:

That is wrong 

  Players are enshrined.by the team that they played for not the current franchise

The busts will have the team they played for, but the players fall under the current franchise city. 

[The Fish]

The Atlanta Braves made mention of Hank Aaron's passing..

 

I dunno what the best way to handle that is, but franchises that have moved aren't going to totally abandon their history. It's on Indy fans to know they don't care about Unitas like Bmore fans did and vice versa.

 

 

[PrincetonTiger]

7 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

The busts will have the team they played for, but the players fall under the current franchise city. 

On the site they are listed Alphabetically and in most publications and the last time I went it was by Enshrinement 

4 minutes ago, The Fish said:

The Atlanta Braves made mention of Hank Aaron's passing..

 

I dunno what the best way to handle that is, but franchises that have moved aren't going to totally abandon their history. It's on Indy fans to know they don't care about Unitas like Bmore fans did and vice versa.

 

 

So true

 

it is a teaching moment 

[The Old Crow]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

On the site they are listed Alphabetically and in most publications and the last time I went it was by Enshrinement 

He also played in Atlanta

Milwaukee Braves first 

[Four2itus]

A small list of 4 types of strife.......

 

A hurtful event that I did to someone that I should have realized would be hurtful.

A hurtful event that I did to someone that there was no way for me to know would be hurtful. 

A hurtful event that someone did to me, and I could have done something about it.

A hurtful event that someone did to me that I could do nothing about.

 

Sometimes we carry the pain of the first three for years. 

 

To carry the pain of the last one, even years.....is unfortunate.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, The Old Crow said:

Milwaukee Braves first 

Same franchise 

 

  

[The Old Crow]

I’ve been to the HOF twice in Canton. If you see the Unitas bust he is listed as  Baltimore Colt, but under the team franchise is Indianapolis Colt. Although it is technically accurate according to franchise rules, it is historically inaccurate as they played in a different city than listed. In my opinion, it should be listed by city, ie. St Louis cardinals, St Louis Rams, etc. Its just a purer way of presenting NFL history. 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Four2itus said:

A small list of 4 types of strife.......

 

A hurtful event that I did to someone that I should have realized would be hurtful.

A hurtful event that I did to someone that there was no way for me to know would be hurtful. 

A hurtful event that someone did to me, and I could have done something about it.

A hurtful event that someone did to me that I could do nothing about.

 

Sometimes we carry the pain of the first three for years. 

 

To carry the pain of the last one, even years.....is silly IMO.  

There are still people that struggle to root for Princeton Community because of the Consolidation of Princeton, Mount Olympus, and White River Township(Patoka and Hazleton) that happened in 1965

[The Old Crow]

3 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Same franchise 

 

  

True, but no similarities between the town or eras. Odd to try to marry them together. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

That is wrong 

  Players are enshrined.by the team that they played for not the current franchise

Overall, really I would've been fine if Jim Irsay would've changed our name during sometime after we won a SB. Just kept what we have accomplished here in Indy and let Baltimore have what the Colts accomplished before 1984. Just call us the Indianapolis Horseshoes  

 

Since 1984:

We have been to 2 SB's = 2006, 2009

 

We have a won a SB in 2006

 

We have been to 5 AFC Title Games = 1995, 2003, 2006, 2009, 2014

 

We have been to an amazing 12 Divisional Round Games = 1987, 1995, 1999, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2013, 2014, 2018.

 

I would have these numbers retired = Peyton Manning (18), Marvin Harrison (88), Eric Dickerson (29), Reggie Wayne (87), Dwight Freeney (93), Edge James (32), Robert Mathis (98), Marshall Faulk (28), and Bob Sanders (21) and be done with it. That is only 9 numbers retired so plenty of other jerseys to be worn.

 

 

 

That resume alone is very good/borderline great. Just call us the Indianapolis Horseshoes  .

 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, The Old Crow said:

True, but no similarities between the town or eras. Odd to try to marry them together. 

Not really hard

  

[The Old Crow]

6 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Not really hard

  

It’s odd how the football HOF displays players , MLB is even weirder, where teams vie or pay to put their logo on the player’s HOF bust. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, The Old Crow said:

It’s odd how the football HOF displays players , MLB is even weirder, where teams vie or pay to put their logo on the player’s HOF bust. 

Yeah I think of Moon as a Houston Oiler.

[Smoke317]

14 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Overall, really I would've been fine if Jim Irsay would've changed our name during sometime after we won a SB. Just kept what we have accomplished here in Indy and let Baltimore have what the Colts accomplished before 1984. Just call us the Indianapolis Horseshoes  

 

Since 1984:

We have been to 2 SB's = 2006, 2009

 

We have a won a SB in 2006

 

We have been to 5 AFC Title Games = 1995, 2003, 2006, 2009, 2014

 

We have been to an amazing 12 Divisional Round Games = 1987, 1995, 1999, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2013, 2014, 2018.

 

I would have these numbers retired = Peyton Manning (18), Marvin Harrison (88), Eric Dickerson (29), Reggie Wayne (87), Dwight Freeney (93), Edge James (32), Robert Mathis (98), Marshall Faulk (28), and Bob Sanders (21) and be done with it. That is only 9 numbers retired so plenty of other jerseys to be worn.

 

 

 

That resume alone is very good/borderline great. Just call us the Indianapolis Horseshoes  .

 

Nice list.  As nice as Faulk and Dickerson were, I don't think they were here long enough to have their numbers retired.  They had better careers with the Rams.  The rest are solid locks for retired numbers.  

[PrincetonTiger]

Compared to Cleveland and St Louis fans Baltimore fans have very little room to complain

   Both lost 2 modern day franchises

    St Louis a modern NBA franchise(Hawks)

     St Louis lost a MLB franchise

    Cleveland lost a NHL franchise

 

  Ironically 

Both cities had a team relocate to Baltimore 

[The Old Crow]

9 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Overall, really I would've been fine if Jim Irsay would've changed our name during sometime after we won a SB. Just kept what we have accomplished here in Indy and let Baltimore have what the Colts accomplished before 1984. Just call us the Indianapolis Horseshoes  

 

Since 1984:

We have been to 2 SB's = 2006, 2009

 

We have a won a SB in 2006

 

We have been to 5 AFC Title Games = 1995, 2003, 2006, 2009, 2014

 

We have been to an amazing 12 Divisional Round Games = 1987, 1995, 1999, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2013, 2014, 2018.

 

I would have these numbers retired = Peyton Manning (18), Marvin Harrison (88), Eric Dickerson (29), Reggie Wayne (87), Dwight Freeney (93), Edge James (32), Robert Mathis (98), Marshall Faulk (28), and Bob Sanders (21) and be done with it. That is only 9 numbers retired so plenty of other jerseys to be worn.

 

 

 

That resume alone is very good/borderline great. Just call us the Indianapolis Horseshoes  .

 

Indy has a great individual history. I really like the town. I think the combine should always be in Indy, as it is tradition. 
I’m fine with Indy being the Colts. If I was an Indy fan, I would just want my own history starting in 1984. I know everyone doesn’t agree with that , but I know I feel that way with the Orioles. I don’t like the Orioles overall record being combined with a bad season by the 1903 St Louis Browns. 

[PrincetonTiger]

3 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Nice list.  As nice as Faulk and Dickerson were, I don't think they were here long enough to have their numbers retired.  They had better careers with the Rams.  The rest are solid locks fro retired numbers.  

Dickerson is one of the reasons the Indianapolis and the state of Indiana are relevant in the NFL

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Nice list.  As nice as Faulk and Dickerson were, I don't think they were here long enough to have their numbers retired.  They had better careers with the Rams.  The rest are solid locks fro retired numbers.  

I like Dickerson better than Faulk because Dickerson put us on the map in 1987, he also led the league in rushing in 1988. That Halloween game in 88 where had 159 yards and 4 TD's by half was so unreal. We blew Elway out. I almost mentioned Jim Harbaugh but he had really only 1 great year, that was 1995. You can only retire so many numbers. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Dickerson is one of the reasons the Indianapolis and the state of Indiana are relevant in the NFL

Yep. He made the Colts relevant for the 1st time here in Indy.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yep. He made the Colts relevant for the 1st time here in Indy.

I still remember the day that I got a gift package from him and the Colts

[The Old Crow]

3 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Compared to Cleveland and St Louis fans Baltimore fans have very little room to complain

   Both lost 2 modern day franchises

    St Louis a modern NBA franchise(Hawks)

     St Louis lost a MLB franchise

    Cleveland lost a NHL franchise

 

  Ironically 

Both cities had a team relocate to Baltimore 

We also lost the Baltimore Bullets to Washington , who later became the Wizards. 
I have to look back as to why the St Louis Browns moved to Baltimore. They used to play at old Sportsman Park in St Louis. 
The old International league Orioles, eventually became the New York Yankees. And Babe Ruth’s dads tavern was located right where the current center field area is at Camden Yards. A lot of ironies. 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, The Old Crow said:

We also lost the Baltimore Bullets to Washington , who later became the Wizards. 
I have to look back as to why the St Louis Browns moved to Baltimore. They used to play at old Sportsman Park in St Louis. 
The old International league Orioles, eventually became the New York Yankees. And Babe Ruth’s dads tavern was located right where the current center field area is at Camden Yards. A lot of ironies. 

St Louis could only support one team

    

[The Old Crow]

Just now, PrincetonTiger said:

St Louis could only support one team

    

Probably right on that one. The Cardinals had Stan the Man. 

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, The Old Crow said:

Probably right on that one. The Cardinals had Stan the Man. 

The had the Anheuser Busch backing

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I like Dickerson better than Faulk because Dickerson put us on the map in 1987, he also led the league in rushing in 1988. That Halloween game in 88 where had 159 yards and 4 TD's by half was so unreal. We blew Elway out. I almost mentioned Jim Harbaugh but he had really only 1 great year, that was 1995. You can only retire so many numbers. 

To add to this Andrew Luck's #12 could be retired in reality, he carried this franchise for 3 years (2012-2014) with no running game and a crappy O.Line with and average coaching. He got us to an AFC Title Game in 2014. 

[The Old Crow]

14 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Nice list.  As nice as Faulk and Dickerson were, I don't think they were here long enough to have their numbers retired.  They had better careers with the Rams.  The rest are solid locks fro retired numbers.  

Interesting point. I think retired numbers, statues, or Ring of Honor are for long term or very significant members of the team. They could be Ring of Honor types , but not retired or statue guys. That belongs to guys like Peyton Manning. 
Ring of Honors are weird with some odd inclusions. Bob Irsay is in for moving the team and being a dad. Same for Art Modell in Baltimore. We have Ernest Byner is ours for playing two seasons , and is better known for the fumble in Cleveland. The ROH is more of an owner prerogative type award.  

[Smoke317]

18 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Dickerson is one of the reasons the Indianapolis and the state of Indiana are relevant in the NFL

Can't argue with that.  That is one of the greatest moments in Colts history.  Definitely the one that put us on the map.  I think he deserves to be in the Colts Ring of Honor (like he currently is).  He definitely had a bigger impact on the franchise than Faulk.  I just don't think his number should be retired with us.  I think you've gotta put in excellent work over a long period of time to have your number retired though. 

All those other names listed had at least like a near decade plus of dominant work for the Shoe.  Except the Colonel.  But he was the catalyst for our only Lombardi.  The strength of that trumps Dickerson or Faulk's short brilliance but not the other's sustained excellence.  And maybe I'm biased because I'm already liking Taylor in the 28.  I can see him joining the others in retired number status by then end of this decade if he can stay healthy.

[The Old Crow]

5 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

The had the Anheuser Busch backing

I’m sure the wanted the Browns gone. The Redskins sure didn’t want the Ravens in Baltimore. They wanted the whole markets. The Orioles didn’t want the Nationals either. I’m sure the Bears probably weren’t crazy about the Colts moving to Indy. 

[PrincetonTiger]

8 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

I’m sure the wanted the Browns gone. The Redskins sure didn’t want the Ravens in Baltimore. They wanted the whole markets. The Orioles didn’t want the Nationals either. I’m sure the Bears probably weren’t crazy about the Colts moving to Indy. 

The Bears didn’t care 

    They still have the same main coverage area and fan base

     The Bears Preseason and Pre Game Coverage is still covered here in the Pocket

       I can watch every preseason game for the a Bears, Colts, and Titans

 

 

 

 

  

[The Old Crow]

Looking at the Colts Ring of Honor, besides Bob Irsay , the ones that would be shaky based on long term accomplishments in Indy would be Bill Brooks, Ted Marchibroda, and Jim Harbaugh. It’s not that these three didn’t have great highlights , or were an important part of team history, but are not really up to the longer term standards of other inductees.