Reich to Philly?

[Two_pound]

You think this Colt team is underachieving because of Frank? Well here's another way to look at it. The combined post season record of Dungy and Caldwell was .500 and they were the head coaches of Colt teams quarterbacked by the greatest qb to ever play the game. Manning revolutionalized the way the position is played. Frank has a 28-20 record and one of his three seasons Brissett was the qb. When Dungy was in Tampa his teams played great defense, he comes to Indy and his teams played very little defense, did he forget how to coach defense? Yes, Caldwell is obviously a better head coach than Patricia based on results in Detroit, but again, who would be a better option than Frank? Bring back Dungy? For 48 years the Colt franchise has come up short  47 times and yet Frank is an inferior coach now? Looking back at the Manning years to some of the bizzarre inexplicable losses who's fault are those? Geeez, Sean Payton must really suck. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it is getting old that people think a different coach here or there a different player here or there would get us over the top, sorry it won't. History tells us that. One of the most irritating and ridiculous things about the nfl is Manning played 14 years in Indy and makes 2 sb's. He then goes to Denver, a team run by a car salesman with no experience ever as a scout and Manning makes 2 sb';s in 4 years. And everyone has seen how bad that gm in Denver really is. It is what it is.

[compuls1v3]

15 hours ago, compuls1v3 said:

This topic doesn't have anything to do with your handle, does it?

In all seriousness, interesting topic, yet I wouldn't trade our coach.  I'd be interested to see what he can do with our current team plus a good mobile QB + star wide out.  Rivers is good, just not mobile, and TY played well towards the back half of the year, but was non existent in the play off game.  T.Y. 2 receptions on 5 targets for 32 yards.

[Smoke317]

5 hours ago, Two_pound said:

You think this Colt team is underachieving because of Frank? Well here's another way to look at it. The combined post season record of Dungy and Caldwell was .500 and they were the head coaches of Colt teams quarterbacked by the greatest qb to ever play the game. Manning revolutionalized the way the position is played. Frank has a 28-20 record and one of his three seasons Brissett was the qb. When Dungy was in Tampa his teams played great defense, he comes to Indy and his teams played very little defense, did he forget how to coach defense? Yes, Caldwell is obviously a better head coach than Patricia based on results in Detroit, but again, who would be a better option than Frank? Bring back Dungy? For 48 years the Colt franchise has come up short  47 times and yet Frank is an inferior coach now? Looking back at the Manning years to some of the bizzarre inexplicable losses who's fault are those? Geeez, Sean Payton must really suck. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it is getting old that people think a different coach here or there a different player here or there would get us over the top, sorry it won't. History tells us that. One of the most irritating and ridiculous things about the nfl is Manning played 14 years in Indy and makes 2 sb's. He then goes to Denver, a team run by a car salesman with no experience ever as a scout and Manning makes 2 sb';s in 4 years. And everyone has seen how bad that gm in Denver really is. It is what it is.

Great points.  But you never addressed any of the numbers I showed.  Frank has a .500 record vs winning teams. Sub .500 vs winning AFC teams.  All while playing the easiest schedule in the league 2 of those years.  So is it just bad luck that we can’t beat our AFC peers?  Is it just misfortune that we lose 1-3 games to teams with terrible records every year?  I’m being serious.  I think the teams are underachieving. How can the Coach not get blame for that?  Mike Davis took IU to a championship. Not Long after it was See Ya. Caldwell got run out of town for poor game management despite winning records and playoff appearances.  Frank Vogel shown the exit.  He wasn’t a great coach.  He was never gonna get the Pacers over the hump.  Give him Lebron and voila. World Champion Coach.  
 

I contend that Frank Reich is basically Frank Vogel.  We’re not winning it all with him.  He needs a LeBron type of game changer to inspire his play calling and overcome his deficiencies. I say that guy is Justin Fields. If he’s gone before we can get him (I’m suggesting we move up for him no matter what), then try to go get Trey Lance or Zach Wilson.  Lance is from the same school as Wentz. So maybe Frank could recreate the magic with Lance that he supposedly created with Wentz.  I haven’t seen enough of Lance to know how special he can ultimately end up being.
 

But Fields has STAR written all over him.  You see the NFL caliber throws he was making in the college playoffs?  Throwing guys open. 50-60 yard bombs through the air (hello TY we’ve missed you since Luck left).  He’s good enough to come in and get TY back to being a 1000 yard receiver next year. Good enough for Frank to implement the read option.  Good enough to have us in the AFC Championship game within 2 years if Ballard keeps at his pace of adding the right pieces.  If Tannehill could get the Titans there, Fields & Frank can get us there quickly. If Frank is gonna be our coach, we gotta go get him the right QB right now or else we’re wasting one of our most talented & balanced rosters in Indy Colts history. 

[EastStreet]

10 hours ago, John Waylon said:

I’d be willing to try another year with someone else in charge of the offense and calling plays. The team seems to love Frank, and Frank is a genuinely good guy that every organization benefits from having in its culture. So if we can structure things differently and make it work great. 
 

But we’ve seen it before, literally to a painful level: being a great human being that the players love to play for doesn’t equal being a good coach. I’m afraid that’s what we’ve got with Frank. 
 

Lots of people will try to balk at that, but go watch those same people’s reactions out in the wild when you bring up a name like Marty Schottenheimer. They’ll immediately peg him as a coach who couldn’t cut it in the playoffs. 
 

It’s ok to acknowledge someone’s weaknesses and limits. It really is. 

Bingo. I love Frank as a guy too. I also liked Pagano as a guy too. I also think Frank has some distinct and clear advantages over Pagano (better OL, better D, much better overall roster, light years better GM).

 

Good coaches make tough decisions. Hope Frank makes the tough decision to give up play calling. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

I don't have much to add but I have been a Colts fan since 1984 and have watched most of their games in that time, IMO Frank is the 2nd best coach I have seen here in Indianapolis. Only Dungy was better. Frank has his flaws but so do the other 31 head coaches in this league. I could nitpick and say the other 31 coaches do this wrong or don't do that right, etc.. Most good coaches against teams with winning records are around .500 by the way, but beat the teams they should beat like we did this year. If people want Frank gone, who are you going to bring who is better? See that is the problem. Frank is better than Chuck and Caldwell, Caldwell was great when he had Peyton healthy, look what he did without Peyton, he went 2-14. Chuck without Luck was a below .500 coach here.

[EastStreet]

16 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I don't have much to add but I have been a Colts fan since 1984 and have watched most of their games in that time, IMO Frank is the 2nd best coach I have seen here in Indianapolis. Only Dungy was better. Frank has his flaws but so do the other 31 head coaches in this league. I could nitpick and say the other 31 coaches do this wrong or don't do that right, etc.. Most good coaches against teams with winning records are around .500 by the way, but beat the teams they should beat like we did this year. If people want Frank gone, who are you going to bring who is better? See that is the problem. Frank is better than Chuck and Caldwell, Caldwell was great when he had Peyton healthy, look what he did without Peyton, he went 2-14. Chuck without Luck was a below .500 coach here.

I think you have to look at more than just QB or Ws and Ls when trying to grade a coach. I think you also have to look at what side of the ball the coach is on (offense or defense), talent level support of all units, and also GM support. 

 

Pagano was a D coach. If you're going to add weight to the offensive side of the ball, and talk about QBs, you need to look at the OCs during his time (Arians, Pep, Chud). Compare those guys to Reich's play calling if you want. We all know what Arians is doing now.... Not many know Pep was Luck's guy in his first year, and Pep just coached Herbert to one of the best rook seasons. Chud, never crazy about him, but I have a feeling he'll get another chance somewhere in the NFL.

[2006Coltsbestever]

In the Indianapolis era (1984 to now) I would probably rank our coaches like this:

1. Tony Dungy

2. Frank Reich

3. Ted Marchibroda

4. Jim Caldwell

5. Chuck, Lindy Infante, Jim Mora, and Ron Meyer are all pretty even for the 5 spot.

- I didn't include Bruce Arians because he just filled in for Chuck for 12 games in 2012. 

 

I will say this, we have had some doozies  = Frank Kush, Rod Dowhower, and Rick Venturi  , talk about bad at its finest. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

17 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I think you have to look at more than just QB or Ws and Ls when trying to grade a coach. I think you also have to look at what side of the ball the coach is on (offense or defense), talent level support of all units, and also GM support. 

 

Pagano was a D coach. If you're going to add weight to the offensive side of the ball, and talk about QBs, you need to look at the OCs during his time (Arians, Pep, Chud). Compare those guys to Reich's play calling if you want. We all know what Arians is doing now.... Not many know Pep was Luck's guy in his first year, and Pep just coached Herbert to one of the best rook seasons. Chud, never crazy about him, but I have a feeling he'll get another chance somewhere in the NFL.

Some of our play calling when we had Luck was plain awful in his early days.

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Some of our play calling when we had Luck was plain awful in his early days.

Perhaps, but his best season was in 14 with Pep, with considerable less talent all around. The OL was shaky, horrible RB unit, etc. 

 

2 good WRs, and that's about it.

 

The D was pretty decent without much talent, which is a tip of the hat to Pagano. Besides Matthis, who was suspended part of the season, name 3 of the starting front 7, or 2 of the starting DBs.

[GoColts8818]

26 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

In the Indianapolis era (1984 to now) I would probably rank our coaches like this:

1. Tony Dungy

2. Frank Reich

3. Ted Marchibroda

4. Jim Caldwell

5. Chuck, Lindy Infante, Jim Mora, and Ron Meyer are all pretty even for the 5 spot.

- I didn't include Bruce Arians because he just filled in for Chuck for 12 games in 2012. 

 

I will say this, we have had some doozies  = Frank Kush, Rod Dowhower, and Rick Venturi  , talk about bad at its finest. 

Chuck got to AFC Title game.  I’d say that gives him the number five spot.  
 

I’d go 

1.  Dungy

2.  Grandpa Ted (did more with way less than any of the others on this list)

3.  Frank

4.  Caldwell 

5.  Chuck 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Perhaps, but his best season was in 14 with Pep, with considerable less talent all around. The OL was shaky, horrible RB unit, etc. 

 

2 good WRs, and that's about it.

 

The D was pretty decent without much talent, which is a tip of the hat to Pagano. Besides Matthis, who was suspended part of the season, name 3 of the starting front 7, or 2 of the starting DBs.

I remember Walden and Redding and of course Jackson but he played MLB.

1 minute ago, GoColts8818 said:

Chuck got to AFC Title game.  I’d say that gives him the number five spot.  

Good point.

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Chuck got to AFC Title game.  I’d say that gives him the number five spot.  
 

I’d go 

1.  Dungy

2.  Grandpa Ted (did more with way less than any of the others on this list)

3.  Frank

4.  Caldwell 

5.  Chuck 

That is a good reasonable list.

[GoColts8818]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is a good reasonable list.

I went back and forth on Frank and Caldwell.  In the end I gave it to Frank for three different starting QBs in three years.

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I remember Walden and Redding and of course Jackson but he played MLB.

 

You get my point though. Luck's best season came with Pep as OC, and with considerable less talent on O and D than 2018, and had a horrible GM. Luck's 2018 was good, but he had all kinds of advantages under Reich/Ballard, and also it looked like Reich was pretty hands off in terms of scheme change. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

You get my point though. Luck's best season came with Pep as OC, and with considerable less talent on O and D than 2018, and had a horrible GM. Luck's 2018 was good, but he had all kinds of advantages under Reich/Ballard, and also it looked like Reich was pretty hands off in terms of scheme change. 

I think it took time for Luck to get going in 2018 after missing a whole season. I doubt we go 1-5 had Luck not missed the entire season before. Reich did great with Luck after the 1-5 start.

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think it took time for Luck to get going in 2018 after missing a whole season. I doubt we go 1-5 had Luck not missed the entire season before. Reich did great with Luck after the 1-5 start.

IMO, I don't think Reich had much to do with Luck's 2018, or rebounding from our bad start. Our bad start was due to musical chairs at OL for the first 5-6 games, and being without Mack until week 6. 

 

Luck's first game of 2018 was actually pretty darn good. Our OL, after giving up 10 sacks in the first 5 weeks, gave up only 8 the rest of the year. Mack went on to rush for 900ish yards after missing the first big chunk of the season. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

IMO, I don't think Reich had much to do with Luck's 2018, or rebounding from our bad start. Our bad start was due to musical chairs at OL for the first 5-6 games, and being without Mack until week 6. 

 

Luck's first game of 2018 was actually pretty darn good. Our OL, after giving up 10 sacks in the first 5 weeks, gave up only 8 the rest of the year. Mack went on to rush for 900ish yards after missing the first big chunk of the season. 

I thought Frank opened the playbook up a bit in 2018 with stuff I haven't seen us do with Luck prior. I guess we see this one different, you have a good point though about the O.Line wasn't in sync until about week 6.

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I thought Frank opened the playbook up a bit in 2018 with stuff I haven't seen us do with Luck prior. I guess we see this one different, you have a good point though about the O.Line wasn't in sync until about week 6.

I just see no tangible/clear evidence of Frank impacting things. And I don't see a difference in Luck's performance over and above what I would expect once our OL gelled and once Mack came back.

 

I do recall one of the worst O-play-called games in my life though. The 0-6 Jax loss later in the season was incredibly hard to watch. Like this year, Jax was not great vs the run either in 2018. We rushed Mack only 8 times, and Hines an additional 4. So 12 total RB carries. WUT? Just bad.

[2006Coltsbestever]

11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I just see no tangible/clear evidence of Frank impacting things. And I don't see a difference in Luck's performance over and above what I would expect once our OL gelled and once Mack came back.

 

I do recall one of the worst O-play-called games in my life though. The 0-6 Jax loss later in the season was incredibly hard to watch. Like this year, Jax was not great vs the run either in 2018. We rushed Mack only 8 times, and Hines an additional 4. So 12 total RB carries. WUT? Just bad.

That wasn't one of Frank's best games no doubt nor was the Miami game in 2019 eventhough Hoyer stunk it up. A lot of coaches have 2 or 3 bad games a year though where you just scratch your head. I have seen that with Caldwell and Chuck as well. On Saturday if Rivers throws a perfect pass to Pittman and we go up 17-7, then Frank looks a genius for going for it, he didn't so many are hating the decision. I can point to 2 other main factors why we lost, when Turay jumped offsides that gave Buffalo 7 on that drive instead of 3 and Blakenship's missed FG, neither were Frank's fault. Right there alone is 7 points going the other way.

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That wasn't one of Frank's best games no doubt nor was the Miami game in 2019 eventhough Hoyer stunk it up. A lot of coaches have 2 or 3 bad games a year though where you just scratch your head. I have seen that with Caldwell and Chuck as well. On Saturday if Rivers throws a perfect pass to Pittman and we go up 17-7, then Frank looks a genius for going for it, he didn't so many are hating the decision. I can point to 2 other main factors why we lost, when Turay jumped offsides that gave Buffalo 7 on that drive instead of 3 and Blakenship's missed FG, neither were Frank's fault. Right there alone is 7 points going the other way.

Players should be expected to make mistakes. Coaches, not so much. Reich chose to not run vs Jax in 2018, and instead force it to TY a bunch who was defended by Ramsey. Reich chose not give Hoyer reps in 2019, and then throw it all over the field vs a Miami team that was bad vs the run. Reich chose in the first game of the season with no preseason and a new QB, to throw it all over the field vs a Jax, a team who is arguably the worst run D in the league. 

 

Those are not small, simple mistakes, They are planned decisions that absolutely go against the grain of logic. Very big difference between horrible planed decisions/strategy, and players making mistakes in the heat of the moment. 

[GoColts8818]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

IMO, I don't think Reich had much to do with Luck's 2018, or rebounding from our bad start. Our bad start was due to musical chairs at OL for the first 5-6 games, and being without Mack until week 6. 

 

Luck's first game of 2018 was actually pretty darn good. Our OL, after giving up 10 sacks in the first 5 weeks, gave up only 8 the rest of the year. Mack went on to rush for 900ish yards after missing the first big chunk of the season. 

Castonzo was also out most of those six weeks.  He came back in the Jets game which was the last of that streak and in the second half of that game is when everything clicked.  

[EastStreet]

5 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

Castonzo was also out most of those six weeks.  He came back in the Jets game which was the last of that streak and in the second half of that game is when everything clicked.  

Yup. I was counting that into the musical chairs on the OL. 

[Two_pound]

Smoke317, I honestly don't know why we play just bad enough to lose so many critical games over the past 48 years. And it does happen over  and over, time and again. It is super frustrating. But the fact Manning only got us to 2 sb's in 14 years, I think, says it all. I'm not sold on Fields. I think it's going to be Rivers next year or we are going to go with the young guy Eason. This years steeler game was a prime example, the steelers really are bad we should have beaten them 45-10, no contest, but as soon as we kicked that field goal to go up 24-7, I knew it was over, and it was a typical"we are not going to win this game from there on". I don't know how many on here are old enough to remember the Bert Jones years, but it was ridiculous how often we got 10-14 points ahead and the game plan changed from attack, attack, attack, to Jones handing off. Mitchell to the right, Mitchell to the left, someone up the middle, punt. Always, then the game became a dog fight. I like Frank, I think we are fortunate to have him, but, at the same time I don't think his results are going to be any different than any other Colt coach over the last 48 years. But, who knows, maybe Frank is the guy who can change history!!

[coltsva]

32 minutes ago, Two_pound said:

 I don't know how many on here are old enough to remember the Bert Jones years, but it was ridiculous how often we got 10-14 points ahead and the game plan changed from attack, attack, attack, to Jones handing off. Mitchell to the right, Mitchell to the left, someone up the middle, punt. Always, then the game became a dog fight.

The game that epitomizes this was the Raiders playoff game. When we were behind we'd easily move the ball down the field and score. Once we got the lead and the D made a stop, with the opportunity to take a two score lead, we got ultra conservative and did run, run, incomplete pass, punt. this happened several times. Pretty sure this was Marchibroda coaching.

 

Thanks for jogging this wonderful memory.