OLine problems?

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Pass protection was not to bad last night. It really was just in the run game. A lot of that may just be the vanilla run schemes they are running.

[Coffeedrinker]

On 8/17/2019 at 7:57 PM, Chloe6124 said:

Just a question. I dont no the answer. Is the mudd technique out dated with the speedier defensive lines in the league today?

What part of "the mudd technique" does not translate to speedier defensive lines?

[Archer]

Aw, it’s preseason for these guys.  With how little contact the teams are allowed in TC nowadays, I’m not surprised a physical OL like ours would take a little time to round into form.  The same starting five did well last year, so I’ll be surprised if they don’t perform well this year...

[richard pallo]

Chris Strausser is the OL coach and he has 31 years exp.  Mudd is an asst. with 41 yrs. exp.  Strausser is the boss though.  They probably go way back.  They have a lot of guys to look at and move around in different positions.  I'm not concerned.  That's what preseason is all about. Evaluation. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Brian Baldinger breaks down a couple of the oline protections against the Browns.

 

 

[EastStreet]

Saw a report on the Bears position battles.

https://beargoggleson.com/2019/08/19/chicago-bears-identifying-roster-battles/

 

One guy I really wish the Colts would have picked up late, or as a UDFA, was Alex Bars. Seems he's doing nicely in Chicago and has been playing both G and T.

 

[Peterk2011]

On 8/18/2019 at 4:29 AM, Chloe6124 said:

We will see what happens when the season starts. They will have a good test at the chargers.

We fired the oline coach and they are using different technique.

 

That's partially true, but primarily not because Strausser or Mudd. Whoever is it, the OL "technique" is 99,9% the same. Mudd has 1-2 unique elements how the teaches it, but every coaches have unique ways they are teaching the (almost) same thing. 

 

However, it's possible that this oline will struggle a bit in the beginning, because - and this is the real change from last year - they are changing to zone blocking. Last year they used some ZB, but mostly it was kind of a mixture of power and zone blocking. I believe that was the main, real reason behind the change. They wanted to change to ZB, that's what Philly uses (I believe Reich is trying to implement the Philly oline here. He has the talent here to do it.) Anyway, a scheme change might take a while for these guys get used to. 

 

In the other hand, if they manage to make the switch successfully, then this oline can be a joy to watch. The ZB scheme requires players with good lateral movement, and for this specific reason, ZB lines usually have smaller, more agile men. What's unique in Nelson, Kelly and Glowinsky, is that they are huge poweful guys - especially Nelson -, all of them are great pullers, but still all of them have very quick feet and good lateral movement. Imagine a ZB oline which has the quick movement, but also pulls like a truck. That's what this oline can look like once they get in comfort mode in the new scheme. It may take a while (a few games, maybe even a half season), but then....

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

4 minutes ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

That's partially true, but primarily not because Strausser or Mudd. Whoever is it, the OL "technique" is 99,9% the same. Mudd has 1-2 unique elements how the teaches it, but every coaches have unique ways they are teaching the (almost) same thing. 

 

However, it's possible that this oline will struggle a bit in the beginning, because - and this is the real change from last year - they are changing to zone blocking. Last year they used some ZB, but mostly it was kind of a mixture of power and zone blocking. I believe that was the main, real reason behind the change. They wanted to change to ZB, that's what Philly uses (I believe Reich is trying to implement the Philly oline here. He has the talent here to do it.) Anyway, a scheme change might take a while for these guys get used to it. 

 

On the other side, if they manage to make the switch successfully, then this oline can be a killer in the running game. The ZB scheme requires players with good lateral movement, and for this specific reason, ZB lines usually have smaller, more agile men. What's unique in Nelson, Kelly and Glowinsky, is that they are huge powefull guys - especially Nelson -, all of them are great pullers, but still all of them have very quick feet and good lateral movement. Imagine a ZB oline which has the quick movement, but can also pull like a truck. That's what this oline can look like once they get in comfort mode in the new scheme. It may take a while (a few games, maybe even a half season), but then....

 

Hopefully it won’t cost us any games if it takes awhile. Having luck with.a injured ankle won’t be pretty. I do think once Luck is back it will get better because Kelly and luck are so good at calling out protections. Hopefully all 5 guys play against the bears sat. 

[Peterk2011]

5 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Hopefully it won’t cost us any games if it takes awhile. Having luck with.a injury ankle won’t be pretty. I do think once Luck is back it will get better because Kelly and luck are so good at calling out protections. Hopefully all 5 guys play against the bears sat. 

 

The level of pass protection should not drop, it's about the running game. Of course, if they'll struggle running the ball, it will limit the playcalling, and as a whole, it will affect the offense.

 

This is when I always remind everyone, that Ballard and Reich are building this team for the long term. They want to win, and want to win now of course, but if there's something that might have positive effect in the long term, they'll always pull the trigger, even if it'll cause headaches in the short term.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

12 minutes ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

The level of pass protection should not drop, it's about the running game. Of course, if they'll struggle running the ball, it will limit the playcalling, and as a whole, it will affect the offense.

 

This is when I always remind everyone, that Ballard and Reich are building this team for the long term. They want to win, and want to win now of course, but if there's something that might have positive effect in the long term, they'll always pull the trigger, even if it'll cause headaches in the short term.

Well if it costs us games where we don’t make the playoffs Reich will have some explaining to do. Fans won’t care if it is meant to be a long term solution. All they see is the best oline last year and a fired coach.

[Peterk2011]

12 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Well if it costs us games where we don’t make the playoffs Reich will have some explaining to do. Fans won’t care if it is meant to be a long term solution. All they see is the best oline last year and a fired coach.

 

Do you think they care? There's hardly any GM or HC gig in the entire NFL that's more secure than Ballards and Reichs at the moment. So I don't think they make any decisions due to keep their jobs. (Which is a good thing imo.) 

 

Yeah, fans will complain, but 31 of 32 team's fans do complain after every season. Then comes free agency, then draft time, and everyone will be exited about the new season. ;)

 

I'm not saying the Colts will suck. I'm just saying that neither Ballard nor Reich cares about "explaining" if it happens. Their full focus on building a team for the upcoming 5-6-8-10 years. and if it comes with some rollercoaster, so be it - assuming it pays off eventually.

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Well if it costs us games where we don’t make the playoffs Reich will have some explaining to do. Fans won’t care if it is meant to be a long term solution. All they see is the best oline last year and a fired coach.

I wonder what really went down with DeGuglielmo. It's rare for an OL with several moving and new pieces to take a giant step forward like we did last year. It's more rare that a coach who managed that transition and improvement is fired. It can't be just the fact that he was the only coach hired for the McDaniels staff. 

 

If the OL does regress, the optics will be pretty bad.

[BeanDiasucci]

I sure hope it wasn't only because Reich wanted one of his guys. 2017 - 56 sacks and team average of 3.7 yards per carry. 2018 - 18 sacks and team average of 4.2 yards per carry.  Maybe the most improved unit of any position in the league. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

25 minutes ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

Do you think they care? There's hardly any GM or HC gig in the entire NFL that's more secure than Ballards and Reichs at the moment. So I don't think they make any decisions due to keep their jobs. (Which is a good thing imo.) 

 

Yeah, fans will complain, but 31 of 32 team's fans do complain after every season. Then comes free agency, then draft time, and everyone will be exited about the new season. ;)

 

I'm not saying the Colts will suck. I'm just saying that neither Ballard nor Reich cares about "explaining" if it happens. Their full focus on building a team for the upcoming 5-6-8-10 years. and if it comes with some rollercoaster, so be it - assuming it pays off eventually.

It still will look bad. When it was working even in the run game last year. Luck is 30. We can’t mess things up where it takes a year or two to fix it. When your as close as as the colts are messing things up for even a year is going to look very bad. Hopefully we will see all five play together SAT. Reich did mention also today they aren’t doing any scheming with the oline which does effect what we are seeing.

[Peterk2011]

1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

It still will look bad. When it was working even in the run game last year. Luck is 30. We can’t mess things up where it takes a year or two to fix it. When your as close as as the colts are messing things up for even a year is going to look very bad. Hopefully we will see all five play together SAT. Reich did mention also today they aren’t doing any scheming with the oline which does effect what we are seeing.

 

How you mean a "messing things up"? And how you mean a year or two to fix? They are not messing things up just for fun so they can fix it.  

 

They're trying to make the team better. The Colts are getting close to the very best teams, but they're not yet there. They acquired plenty of talents, but talents alone can take so so far. You have to put the best scheme out there for these guys to maximize their production. Bill Belichick has been building his team for 20 years. He has veterans, who's been around for years and years all over the roster. who have seen "everything". You can't compete with them just with talent, speed, athleticism and youth. You have to desig and apply the best scheme for this team as well. They don't change the run blocking scheme to "mess things up". They do it to make the running game better eventually. Eberflus doesn't tweak/change his defensive scheme (you can be sure he will tweak it a lot compared to last year) to "mess things up". He is doing it to make the defense better.

 

But every tweak, every change is a learning process for the players. Some tweaks can't be teached in practice, some they will learn when playing real games. That's inevitable. Is it sometimes a rollercoaster? Yes, it is. But you still do it, because you believe it eventually worths it. Hopefully, the zone blocking scheme will eventually help the Colts to have a consistent running game in the most important games in January. That's their goal.

[SteelCityColt]

12 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

Well if it costs us games where we don’t make the playoffs Reich will have some explaining to do. Fans won’t care if it is meant to be a long term solution. All they see is the best oline last year and a fired coach.

 

Massive generalisation here. Some fans can understand the nuance of what the team might be trying to achieve as show by @Peterk2011's posts. Given how much the offense improved last year despite Reich being a late hire, not having had time to get the pieces in place he might have ideally wanted, wouldn't you want to see what it can do if can fully implement his vision?

 

12 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

I wonder what really went down with DeGuglielmo. It's rare for an OL with several moving and new pieces to take a giant step forward like we did last year. It's more rare that a coach who managed that transition and improvement is fired. It can't be just the fact that he was the only coach hired for the McDaniels staff. 

 

If the OL does regress, the optics will be pretty bad.

 

Two points, I think you're right that we might never know the full reason for DeGuglielmo's departure. He seems to wear out his welcome quickly in most places. However he wasn't the only McDaniels hire, I believe Eberflus was as well. 

[EastStreet]

45 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Massive generalisation here. Some fans can understand the nuance of what the team might be trying to achieve as show by @Peterk2011's posts. Given how much the offense improved last year despite Reich being a late hire, not having had time to get the pieces in place he might have ideally wanted, wouldn't you want to see what it can do if can fully implement his vision?

 

 

Two points, I think you're right that we might never know the full reason for DeGuglielmo's departure. He seems to wear out his welcome quickly in most places. However he wasn't the only McDaniels hire, I believe Eberflus was as well. 

Great point on Eberflus. IIRC, he was as much a Ballard hire as it was a JM hire. I think I read something that Ballard was very convincing with Reich in terms of Eberflus. Glad he stuck!

 

Not sure if it's he wore out his welcome, or if he's just bouncing to places/people he's familiar with. He's on his 3rd stint now with Miami, and working for Flores whom he worked with 5ish years ago in NE. He was hired here by a NE guy. He's also had multiple stints with Coughlin. He may be a guy who has topped out at OL coach and will never be an OC, and just happy to jump for the money and familiarity. He has had pretty darn good results at most of his stops.

[CoachLite]

Is there really "an o-line problem"? Or is perfection the standard that most fans expect? I think I'll wait for a few games that count to see what happens.

[Creekside]

20 minutes ago, CoachLite said:

Is there really "an o-line problem"? Or is perfection the standard that most fans expect? 

 

Against Buff. Hines had 6 carries for 1 yard.

 

Against Clev. Mack had 6 carries for 10 yards ( thanks to a 9 yd run where Mack avoided a 3 yd loss)

 

Not one time did the "starting" 0-Line open anything resembling a hole for Hines or Mack.

They were essentially 12 carries for no gain.

 

Not one hole. Not one time.  

[CoachLite]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

 

Against Buff. Hines had 6 carries for 1 yard.

 

Against Clev. Mack had 6 carries for 10 yards ( thanks to a 9 yd run where Mack avoided a 3 yd loss)

 

Not one time did the "starting" 0-Line open anything resembling a hole for Hines or Mack.

They were essentially 12 carries for no gain.

 

Not one hole. Not one time.  

So I saw. What's your point? The preseason is often an experimental laboratory for trying a few new techniques and evaluating players. Many if not most of these won't work out. Knowing what doesn't work, and why, seems important information. You'd want to know that before the games really count. 

[IndyScribe]

1 hour ago, egg said:

 

Against Buff. Hines had 6 carries for 1 yard.

 

Against Clev. Mack had 6 carries for 10 yards ( thanks to a 9 yd run where Mack avoided a 3 yd loss)

 

Not one time did the "starting" 0-Line open anything resembling a hole for Hines or Mack.

They were essentially 12 carries for no gain.

 

Not one hole. Not one time.  

Nelson was out, so it's not the starting O-Line. It's also hard to run when you tell them you're going to run 

[Creekside]

1 hour ago, CoachLite said:

So I saw. What's your point? The preseason is often an experimental laboratory for trying a few new techniques and evaluating players. Many if not most of these won't work out. Knowing what doesn't work, and why, seems important information. You'd want to know that before the games really count. 

 

If Brissett was O-12 and failed to throw one accurate pass, would you say it's just pre-season?

 

Or maybe they were just "experimenting"? 

 

Would you say, "I'm not looking for perfection"?

 

 

[Creekside]

17 minutes ago, IndyScribe said:

Nelson was out, so it's not the starting O-Line. It's also hard to run when you tell them you're going to run 

 

If Brissett was O-12 and failed to throw one accurate pass, would you be content that he's not the starter anyway?

 

Would you say,  "O well, it's hard to pass when the other team knows you are going to pass"?

[SteelCityColt]

21 minutes ago, egg said:

 

If Brissett was O-12 and failed to throw one accurate pass, would you say it's just pre-season?

 

Or maybe they were just "experimenting"? 

 

Would you say, "I'm not looking for perfection"?

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, egg said:

 

If Brissett was O-12 and failed to throw one accurate pass, would you be content that he's not the starter anyway?

 

Would you say,  "O well, it's hard to pass when the other team knows you are going to pass"?

 

But he wasn't... 

 

As outlined above, the shift in scheme is likely to have more impact on the running game, especially when there is no game planning.  Throw in that I'd say a lot of our best running plays last year came from Nelson pulling to the right side and that he's our best run blocker on the o line and I'm not surprised. 

 

Besides... yeah I would still say it's preseason. You're seeing more and more teams treating it as an extended way to try out bottom end roster churners rather than actual installation or first team practice. 

[CoachLite]

32 minutes ago, egg said:

 

If Brissett was O-12 and failed to throw one accurate pass, would you say it's just pre-season?

 

Or maybe they were just "experimenting"? 

 

Would you say, "I'm not looking for perfection"?

 

 

It depends on the reasons for inaccurate passing. He might have an ear infection, or his receivers dropped everything thrown at them. In other words, there's insufficient information for me on which to judge.