Brandon Williams expected to get more lucrative contract elsewhere

[I'm mad, bro]

1 hour ago, Boiler_Colt said:

I agree, last season was almost certainly his peak. Anything more than 1-2 years at his current salary and he's not worth it. I'd even venture to say that Ayers would be just as good, given Walden's share of PT. Ayers is also MUCH better in coverage.

Akeem Ayers is so much better in many aspects of football especially having the versatility to drop in coverage. I know we have nothing else at the moment but to me, Erik Walden is not much better then nothing

 

1 hour ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

Walden is what he is; a middle of the pack starter that is usually good for 1-2 clutch plays a game (like a 3rd down stop, a hurried throw incomplete or a sack). Lots of teams have these players, and in fact every team that is good relies on these players to round out their roster. The big difference is they usually surround them with talent so that they only need to come up big a handful of plays each week. 

I think hes a decent stop gap until the young guys get their act together, as most first year pass rushers have trouble making plays for their team. I wouldnt give him 10 million a year, but hes worth what he is, a middle of the pack salary for a LB. 

Besides, we dont really have anyone else signed on the roster at OLB so it would be one more hole to fill for 2017. With any luck hes our 4th or 5th best OLB by the end of 2018 and we cut ties. 

What? Clutch plays from Erik Walden? Noooo! Nooo never happened. I'm on your side man we want this team to be great, so why on gods green earth would we even resign him? He's not only an inconsistent pass rusher, he's not good against the run ethier, gets washed by TE on god watch this dude on film. I dont live and die by what PFF has to say, but him being the worst player on the worst front seven in the NFL is a joke and doesn't deserve 4 mil a year, not 3 not 2 give this bum a 1 year 1 mil after he hits the market and finds no one wants him

[backshoulderfade]

4 hours ago, richard pallo said:

I respectively disagree. You are not going to improve the defense by constantly adding average players to the rotation.  I think Williams would look great on this defense and he would help and improve the players around him.  Difference makers do make a difference.  That's why they get paid.  Heaven knows we need a few. 

That's not what I am suggesting. But what is the point in adding a 2 down NT for 10 million if he wont perform to that price tag bwcause there isn't the linebackers behind him good enough to make plays. Williams isn't as good as Damon Harrison, IMO. Harrison is on another level and he got around 9.5 last year.

[scousecolt]

Williams would be a great signing. Keep the linebackers clean to make tackles. Considering they're likely to be rookies or 2nd year players that would be a huge help to them having someone eating up blockers.

[richard pallo]

4 hours ago, backshoulderfade said:

That's not what I am suggesting. But what is the point in adding a 2 down NT for 10 million if he wont perform to that price tag bwcause there isn't the linebackers behind him good enough to make plays. Williams isn't as good as Damon Harrison, IMO. Harrison is on another level and he got around 9.5 last year.

If the linebackers behind him aren't good enough than that's another problem.  If he does his job then it's up to them to do theirs.  Williams better than Harrison, Poe better than Williams everybody has an opinion.  They are all extremely better than what we have and all are difference makers. 

[backshoulderfade]

1 hour ago, richard pallo said:

If the linebackers behind him aren't good enough than that's another problem.  If he does his job then it's up to them to do theirs.  Williams better than Harrison, Poe better than Williams everybody has an opinion.  They are all extremely better than what we have and all are difference makers. 

It really isn't another problem though. Run defense is a team effort. It's great having a big strong nose tackles who can lock down both A-gaps. The problem with our defense in the run game is that our linebackers don't play with the prerequisite technique, discipline and strength to properly occupy their gaps. That will make a good NT look bad.

 

By no stretch are Williams or Poe better than Harrison as run stuffers. He stops the run at the highest % in the league. He is the best NT in the league by a huge margin.

 

Sure, sign BW. But 10 million is excessive. Draft Ruben Foster, Sign one of the better ILBs along with Williams and he will look great. Let me be explicit here. Brandon Williams is not worth 1/16th of 2017s salary cap for what he brings to this team. I apologize to anyone who feels I may have been dismissive of their opinions. It was not intentional. I enjoy the debate.

[richard pallo]

53 minutes ago, backshoulderfade said:

It really isn't another problem though. Run defense is a team effort. It's great having a big strong nose tackles who can lock down both A-gaps. The problem with our defense in the run game is that our linebackers don't play with the prerequisite technique, discipline and strength to properly occupy their gaps. That will make a good NT look bad.

 

By no stretch are Williams or Poe better than Harrison as run stuffers. He stops the run at the highest % in the league. He is the best NT in the league by a huge margin.

 

Sure, sign BW. But 10 million is excessive. Draft Ruben Foster, Sign one of the better ILBs along with Williams and he will look great. Let me be explicit here. Brandon Williams is not worth 1/16th of 2017s salary cap for what he brings to this team. I apologize to anyone who feels I may have been dismissive of their opinions. It was not intentional. I enjoy the debate.

No guarantee Rueben Foster and one of the better linebackers will make him look great either.  You are taking a chance.  At least Williams has proven himself Foster hasn't proven anything.  The market and how bad a team wants him will determine his contract.  So who knows where that will end up.  I would rather look into acquiring Dan Shelton if I had my way but regardless if either Poe or Williams comes free they would both be huge upgrades and a major asset to the team. and worth the money. 

[backshoulderfade]

19 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

No guarantee Rueben Foster and one of the better linebackers will make him look great either.  You are taking a chance.  At least Williams has proven himself Foster hasn't proven anything.  The market and how bad a team wants him will determine his contract.  So who knows where that will end up.  I would rather look into acquiring Dan Shelton if I had my way but regardless if either Poe or Williams comes free they would both be huge upgrades and a major asset to the team. and worth the money. 

Yeh. Shelton on a rookie contract which is far more preferable. If we can get Williams for 6 or 8 mill per, I would be all for it.

[krunk]

15 hours ago, richard pallo said:

Me too.  He was out there for a long time before he signed with Giants.  I couldn't believe we didn't go after him.  Either Poe or Williams would be fantastic though.  I tend to lean towards Poe if he even comes free.  I have mentioned him before but Dan Shelton of the Browns will probably be available in a trade and he's only 23.  Have to keep all options on the table.  Maybe offer Dorsett for Shelton to start the talks.  Both No.1 picks for their teams.  It can't hurt to talk. 

What's making you think Shelton will be available?  Just curious

[Jason_]

23 hours ago, DaColts85 said:

I definitely can not disagree with you there.  Having a solid NT (either one) would be a dramatic help for us.  Adding one of Perry or Ingram would also be nice.  I hope we can or even will actually go after someone.  The problem is Grigson's past and going after mid level guys or players 30 and above.

 

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that the situation was different when Grigson was signing the "mid level guys".  At the time, we had no offense or defense.  The front office and coaching staff decided to build the Offense through the draft first, which mean that in order to field a remotely competitive defense they had to go with multiple mid level FAs instead of signing a couple of high priced difference makers like everyone wanted. 

 

Now, however, the holes on the team are fewer (than they were in 2012 and 2013 anyway) and the offense, for the most part, is set.  We have an OL that seems to have a lot of promise and the only real need is at RB.  Yes, there are several holes in the defense, but they'll be able to spend the majority of their draft picks on defense.  We also have some solid role players now on defense, so really the biggest need is to add some playmakers. 

 

Let me put it this way...if we gave a letter grade to every player on defense, would you rather have all 11 players be in the B-C range, or would you rather have 2 or 3 players with an A grade, but the other 8-9 are Ds and Fs?  If you go the second route, then those 2 or 3 playmakers aren't able to make the plays that they'd otherwise be able to due to such a poor supporting cast.  And by the time we had the necessary role players and support around those playmakers, it'd be about time for their contracts to expire anyway.

[Jason_]

On 1/18/2017 at 1:03 PM, chad72 said:

 

Wasn't Poe in the line up when LeVeon Bell ran for all these yards, and the Chiefs have given up all these rushing yards and TDs to Latavius Murray, Derrick Henry & DeMarco Murray etc.? The Steelers, Raiders and Titans have good O-lines and that evaluation tells me he is not all that when it comes to dealing with good O-lines.

 

 

Come on now Chad, you know better than that.  Just because teams ran on Kansas City doesn't mean that Poe himself performed poorly.  It takes all 11 guys to play defense.  Poe could be doing exactly what he needs to do but if just one guy around him misses a key or leaves his gap then the opposing RB is likely to get a big gain.

 

[Jason_]

18 hours ago, richard pallo said:

Me too.  He was out there for a long time before he signed with Giants.  I couldn't believe we didn't go after him.  Either Poe or Williams would be fantastic though.  I tend to lean towards Poe if he even comes free.  I have mentioned him before but Dan Shelton of the Browns will probably be available in a trade and he's only 23.  Have to keep all options on the table.  Maybe offer Dorsett for Shelton to start the talks.  Both No.1 picks for their teams.  It can't hurt to talk. 

 

Was it ever reported that we didn't?

[MTC]

Brandon Williams would be a huge upgrade over David Parry. I would love this signing to shore up our poor D-line.

[Jason_]

18 hours ago, I'm mad, bro said:

What is up with this obsession with Erik Walden after 1 year in his entire career of production? Do you know how many sacks he had in the first 3 years for us? 12 in total. So Yea let's waste another 20 mil over 3 years for a 1 year floozy I mean he's only ganna be 32, he's only getting younger

 

Do you understand what Walden's role in our defense is supposed to be?  He was signed to play the SAM LB role.  That role's primary responsibilities are NOT in pass rushing but rather in coverage and run support. 

 

tl:dr version....Walden was not brought here to be a sack master.  So his low sack totals the first few years should not be a surprise.

[Jason_]

5 hours ago, backshoulderfade said:

It really isn't another problem though. Run defense is a team effort. It's great having a big strong nose tackles who can lock down both A-gaps.

 

Yes...if you're playing a 2-gap defense.  However, the Colts, for the most part, have not been doing that which makes me wonder why so many people think we need this big, 2 gap NT.  If that's not the type of defense that the Colts are trying to run then why would we need that player...especially for big $$$?

[chad72]

39 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

 

Come on now Chad, you know better than that.  Just because teams ran on Kansas City doesn't mean that Poe himself performed poorly.  It takes all 11 guys to play defense.  Poe could be doing exactly what he needs to do but if just one guy around him misses a key or leaves his gap then the opposing RB is likely to get a big gain.

 

 

While I realize that, he used to make plays even when double teamed, he had not been doing that recently. That was what I was inferring to.

[Jason_]

13 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

While I realize that, he used to make plays even when double teamed, he had not been doing that recently. That was what I was inferring to.

 

well see now that makes more sense. Reading your previous post it sounded like you were simply basing the opinion that he's not that good on the total rushing stats and PFF grades.

 

[chad72]

7 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

 

well see now that makes more sense. Reading your previous post it sounded like you were simply basing the opinion that he's not that good on the total rushing stats and PFF grades.

 

 

Details, details...it always comes down to that, doesn't it?

 

Like someone else said, the down and distances will be in our favor if we do get a good NT. For a season or two, I started thinking Parry and Kerr would do, not anymore. However, the NE coaches seem to rotate players constantly in their front 7 to get most out of their unit, and that is why they could send Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins packing. They just have not played enough QBs that go no huddle and keep them on the field long enough to expose them, IMO. 

[DaColts85]

1 hour ago, Jason_S said:

 

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that the situation was different when Grigson was signing the "mid level guys".  At the time, we had no offense or defense.  The front office and coaching staff decided to build the Offense through the draft first, which mean that in order to field a remotely competitive defense they had to go with multiple mid level FAs instead of signing a couple of high priced difference makers like everyone wanted. 

 

Now, however, the holes on the team are fewer (than they were in 2012 and 2013 anyway) and the offense, for the most part, is set.  We have an OL that seems to have a lot of promise and the only real need is at RB.  Yes, there are several holes in the defense, but they'll be able to spend the majority of their draft picks on defense.  We also have some solid role players now on defense, so really the biggest need is to add some playmakers. 

 

Let me put it this way...if we gave a letter grade to every player on defense, would you rather have all 11 players be in the B-C range, or would you rather have 2 or 3 players with an A grade, but the other 8-9 are Ds and Fs?  If you go the second route, then those 2 or 3 playmakers aren't able to make the plays that they'd otherwise be able to due to such a poor supporting cast.  And by the time we had the necessary role players and support around those playmakers, it'd be about time for their contracts to expire anyway.

I get your point and you are quoting one small portion that talks about a FA move and mentioning stuff with the draft.  My point had nothing in reference to the draft.  So yes every team would love to have a range of guys on both sides of the ball that are at least an average C grade.  Grigson has done poor when talking about the draft.  So to your point, if he spends majority picks this year on hopefully some promising draft picks plus a few nice FA moves we would be pretty well off.  I am also not meaning that we spend all of our money on this either.  You building a lot off of a few words here...

[Jason_]

1 hour ago, DaColts85 said:

I get your point and you are quoting one small portion that talks about a FA move and mentioning stuff with the draft.  My point had nothing in reference to the draft.  

 

Well that's the thing...yes it does.  Your point was that Grigson's past indicates he has gone after mid level free agents.  You have to view the entire offseason to understand what was going on, not the draft and free agency independently.  As I said, in 2012 and 2013, there were holes in literally every single position group on the team outside of the 3 primary Special Teamers (K, P, LS).  The entire roster went through an overhaul in those couple of years.  They (the powers that be) decided to build the offense through the draft first so that those players would be growing and developing with Luck. 

 

However, they still needed to field a defense, and they only kept a few players from the previous regime. 

 

In 2012, only 3 offensive starters were from the previous regime (Wayne, Castonzo and Reitz) and 7 on defense (Moala, Antonio Johnson, Kavell Conner, Freeney, mathis, Jerraud Powers and Bethea).  That meant that, in the offseason leading up to the 2012 season, they had to get 8 new starters for offense and 4 for defense.  So we needed 12 new starters and expecting to get more than 1 or 2 through the draft is setting yourself up for disappointment.  That meant they had to find approximately 8-9 starters through FA.

 

We didn't have playmakers, solid role players or any quality depth, and when you need that many new players  you can't really afford to shop for the best playmakers (Finding playmakers through Free agency is the worst way to go about it anyway).  When you're in that situation, that's when you have to choose between going after 1 or 2 great players with a bunch of duds around them, or a group of average to hopefully above average guys with no true standouts.  They went with the latter approach, which was smart because, like I said, by the time they got the proper depth and role players around those playmakers, the playmakers would have been due for new contracts anyway.

 

1 hour ago, DaColts85 said:

Grigson has done poor when talking about the draft.

 

the tl:dr version is that this is correct.  Grigson had been doing a poor job drafting, and that, plus the huge amount of roster turnover in 2012 and 2013 are why he hasn't been able to spend big in Free Agency.  He's had to fill far too many holes on the roster through FA which requires more bargain shopping and prevents you from being able to go after any high priced difference makers.  However, Grigson has been much better with the draft the past 2 years, so now is the time they actually can choose to go after a playmaker or 2 in FA. 

 

Basic point being that his tendencies in free agency in the past does not necessarily indicate what his tendencies will be in the future because situations can change drastically from year to year.

[COLTS449]

I wasn't expecting he or Poe to hit the market. We have the cap room for 2-3 major signings, and could add 1-2 other really good players. But this........

 

Brandon Williams NT

Nick Perry EDGE

AJ Bouye CB

Zach Brown ILB

TJ Lang G

 

Would be a perfect offseason. 3 big money deals in Williams, Perry, and Bouye. Then 2 signings that wont break the bank in Lang and Brown. Williams would give us that big beast, run stuffing NT who commands dubs. Perry would give us an ascending double digit sack EDGE rusher. Bouye would give us another number 1 CB. Brown is a very underrated ILB, and Lang is still a beast. He shouldn't command big money because he's in his 30's.

[richard pallo]

7 hours ago, krunk said:

What's making you think Shelton will be available?  Just curious

Greg Williams is switching to a 4-3 defense from a 3-4.  Shelton has been their starting NT since he was drafted and is better suited for a 3-4.  He along with some other players on their roster might be in play as they look to make the change. 

[krunk]

1 hour ago, richard pallo said:

Greg Williams is switching to a 4-3 defense from a 3-4.  Shelton has been their starting NT since he was drafted and is better suited for a 3-4.  He along with some other players on their roster might be in play as they look to make the change. 

If it's somewhat similar to how Bellichick runs his 4-3 then there should still be room for a big body in there.  Similar to how they use Vincent Valentine and I think Siliga or whoever the other guy is.  Valentine ain't much of a pass rusher

[I'm mad, bro]

6 hours ago, Jason_S said:

 

Do you understand what Walden's role in our defense is supposed to be?  He was signed to play the SAM LB role.  That role's primary responsibilities are NOT in pass rushing but rather in coverage and run support. 

 

tl:dr version....Walden was not brought here to be a sack master.  So his low sack totals the first few years should not be a surprise.

Do you understand that erik Walden couldn't cover my grandma out of the back field, and feel free to go back watch a game and see erik get washed in the run game. Never throughout his career be4 coming here did he show he can pass cover, and in green bay am I wrong or was he not the situational pass rusher? I think I'm right, just becuz most SAM backers in the NFL can pass cover and actually be stout in run support AND pass rush, doesn't mean old erik walden is good at it. Just means were dumb enough to drop him in to a zone coverage

[Jason_]

14 hours ago, I'm mad, bro said:

Do you understand that erik Walden couldn't cover my grandma out of the back field, and feel free to go back watch a game and see erik get washed in the run game. Never throughout his career be4 coming here did he show he can pass cover, and in green bay am I wrong or was he not the situational pass rusher? I think I'm right, just becuz most SAM backers in the NFL can pass cover and actually be stout in run support AND pass rush, doesn't mean old erik walden is good at it. Just means were dumb enough to drop him in to a zone coverage

 

let's just say I disagree with just about all of that.

[DaColts85]

20 hours ago, Jason_S said:

 

Well that's the thing...yes it does.  Your point was that Grigson's past indicates he has gone after mid level free agents.  You have to view the entire offseason to understand what was going on, not the draft and free agency independently.  As I said, in 2012 and 2013, there were holes in literally every single position group on the team outside of the 3 primary Special Teamers (K, P, LS).  The entire roster went through an overhaul in those couple of years.  They (the powers that be) decided to build the offense through the draft first so that those players would be growing and developing with Luck. 

 

However, they still needed to field a defense, and they only kept a few players from the previous regime. 

 

In 2012, only 3 offensive starters were from the previous regime (Wayne, Castonzo and Reitz) and 7 on defense (Moala, Antonio Johnson, Kavell Conner, Freeney, mathis, Jerraud Powers and Bethea).  That meant that, in the offseason leading up to the 2012 season, they had to get 8 new starters for offense and 4 for defense.  So we needed 12 new starters and expecting to get more than 1 or 2 through the draft is setting yourself up for disappointment.  That meant they had to find approximately 8-9 starters through FA.

 

We didn't have playmakers, solid role players or any quality depth, and when you need that many new players  you can't really afford to shop for the best playmakers (Finding playmakers through Free agency is the worst way to go about it anyway).  When you're in that situation, that's when you have to choose between going after 1 or 2 great players with a bunch of duds around them, or a group of average to hopefully above average guys with no true standouts.  They went with the latter approach, which was smart because, like I said, by the time they got the proper depth and role players around those playmakers, the playmakers would have been due for new contracts anyway.

 

 

the tl:dr version is that this is correct.  Grigson had been doing a poor job drafting, and that, plus the huge amount of roster turnover in 2012 and 2013 are why he hasn't been able to spend big in Free Agency.  He's had to fill far too many holes on the roster through FA which requires more bargain shopping and prevents you from being able to go after any high priced difference makers.  However, Grigson has been much better with the draft the past 2 years, so now is the time they actually can choose to go after a playmaker or 2 in FA. 

 

Basic point being that his tendencies in free agency in the past does not necessarily indicate what his tendencies will be in the future because situations can change drastically from year to year.

As you complete breakdown was solid I understand this and will obviously say that I feel he has clearly shown his tactics.  We have had the salary cap needed in the past and building a team is expensive and clearly you can't go out and get great players at every spot in FA.  With the multiple failed drafts that he had this causes more stress on everything as a whole.  So with his mid-level pick-ups he had to fill all of these spots he also hurt us with many compensatory picks.  Would that have helped?  Not likely since he, to me, has a lack of judging the right players for us.  Regardless he has failed with draft and with FA he has made moves that have been lackluster and questionable.  You spend money of Andre Johnson - over 30 and was slowing down, but then draft WR in round 1.  All of this combined is what has caused this issue we are in now.  That being said at no point do I think we need to go grab half a team in FA.  Never have I said or indicated that.  Can we grab a few now and hope f or better drafts in the future of course.  That being said, I do not see Grigson changing his style and I think people will be angry after this year in FA as well.

[krunk]

Wouldn't surprise me if we went after Brandon Williams

[BProland85]

23 minutes ago, krunk said:

Wouldn't surprise me if we went after Brandon Williams

 

Since it's looking like Pagano will be back it won't surprise me either. Let's just hope it works out better than when they signed Art Jones. If Williams followed the same trend of injury that Jones did, then I believe Indy is truly cursed in regards to injuries.

 

Just don't overpay Grigson.

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, BProland85 said:

 

Since it's looking like Pagano will be back it won't surprise me either. Let's just hope it works out better than when they signed Art Jones. If Williams followed the same trend of injury that Jones did, then I believe Indy is truly cursed in regards to injuries.

 

Just don't overpay Grigson.

Or What?   It's pretty hard not to overpay when you are going after the premier players.  You want older average role players again?   Not me thank you.  

[RockThatBlue]

On 1/18/2017 at 11:52 AM, MPStack said:

Yeah, me too! He would be my number one signing, to start building a monster. 

If we hire Ballard, maybe he can do us a solid and bring Poe with him.

[UKColt13]

Damon Harrison set the market. He'll probably reset it.