Rivers Replacing Brees

[CR91]

no one seems to like the example of rodgers replacing favre or young replacing montana so how about rivers replacing brees. rivers is drafted in 2004 pretty much 1st overall since the chargers picked first and sat behind brees for two years. i know people are gonna poke holes in this, but still rivers didnt get to be the full time starter til 06 luck can do the same

[FireJimCaldwell]

Imagine, Brees, Tomlinson & Larry Fitzgerald.

[SubZero]

Ya i agree i would really like to pick Luck. But i really dont get why the Chargers pick Rivers when they had Brees im just still stumped on the reasoning.

[HGRekks]

Brees was a decent QB before Rivers came along. He only became a superstar after Rivers was drafted. His worst season was right before Rivers was drafted. It's not even close to the same.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Ya i agree i would really like to pick Luck. But i really dont get why the Chargers pick Rivers when they had Brees im just still stumped on the reasoning.

I get why they let him go, he had the shoulder injury, but I'm not sure why they drafted Rivers to start with. Brees is obviously bettter with Payton than he ever was in SD, but they could have had a really scary offense, if they draft Fitzgerald instead of Eli.

[The Fish]

Sorta, but Brees wasn't and isn't Peyton. I'm rooting for Luck and a healthy Peyton. Sounds good.

[CR91]

Brees was a decent QB before Rivers came along. He only became a superstar after Rivers was drafted. His worst season was right before Rivers was drafted. It's not even close to the same.

yes i know its not the same which is why i said people will poke holes, but still the chargers drafted a qb with a the first pick when they already had one who sat and is a top 10 arguably top 5 qb

[doogansquest]

It's not only not the same, but neither is the Favre/Rodgers transition the same as the Colts dilemma, and Montana/Young doesn't even belong in the discussion because Young wasn't even drafted by the 49ers. In both of those instances, the team receiving said QB didn't have to give up a 1st overall pick to acquire their replacement, and those back ups were developmental anyway. Their talents weren't wasted on the bench for practically $0.

[CR91]

It's not only not the same, but neither is the Favre/Rodgers transition the same as the Colts dilemma, and Montana/Young doesn't even belong in the discussion because Young wasn't even drafted by the 49ers. In both of those instances, the team receiving said QB didn't have to give up a 1st overall pick to acquire their replacement, and those back ups were developmental anyway. Their talents weren't wasted on the bench for practically $0.

which is why i got away from that example and used rivers and brees which is the same. rivers sat for two years expecting to replace brees. it just so happens the chargers lucked out in making that decision.

[chad72]

which is why i got away from that example and used rivers and brees which is the same. rivers sat for two years expecting to replace brees. it just so happens the chargers lucked out in making that decision.

But they paid a premium for Rivers, at 5 yr. $40 mil., that mattered too in their decision. Brees' separated shoulder in their last regular season game in 2005 just made the decision easier. Marty who was on the Brees' bandwagon was sent packing for trying to get his son to do some playcalling as well. Heck, even the Dolphins passed on Brees due to his shoulder even without having a backup plan themselves (which was dumb, in hindsight). The Chargers did the right thing but they have been losing talent (Merriman, Turner, Cromartie, LT, Sproles etc. - man, they were really talented but did not have the right coaching, IMO) and have not replenished them as well in the draft, just like the Colts.

[mouthofsouth]

Ya i agree i would really like to pick Luck. But i really dont get why the Chargers pick Rivers when they had Brees im just still stumped on the reasoning.

San Diego did not pick Rivers. They picked Eli Manning. Brees had not yet proven himself, and San Diego had he first pick and took Manning as the first pick. No one would pass on Peyton Manning's brother. Then the Giants negotiated a trade because Manning did not want to play for San Diego. The Giants drafted Rivers and then swapped with San Diego for Manning.

[SanAntonioColt]

no one seems to like the example of rodgers replacing favre or young replacing montana so how about rivers replacing brees. rivers is drafted in 2004 pretty much 1st overall since the chargers picked first and sat behind brees for two years. i know people are gonna poke holes in this, but still rivers didnt get to be the full time starter til 06 luck can do the same

Rivers was not pretty much #1 overall; the Giants gave up #3 pick and other concessions to get Eli. Rivers didn't have close to the hype of Luck and was not considered nearly as NFL ready. At the time Rivers was drafted, Brees was considered an OK QB, but nothing like Peyton except they were both dealing with an injury. Luck and Peyton will not coexist for long if the Colts draft Luck. One will have to go and Luck has the best trade value.

[CR91]

Rivers was not pretty much #1 overall; the Giants gave up #3 pick and other concessions to get Eli. Rivers didn't have close to the hype of Luck and was not considered nearly as NFL ready. At the time Rivers was drafted, Brees was considered an OK QB, but nothing like Peyton except they were both dealing with an injury. Luck and Peyton will not coexist for long if the Colts draft Luck. One will have to go and Luck has the best trade value.

and how do you know this are you psychic? do you have a crystal to see in the future? i dont know if you know this or not but peyton and andrew have known each other since luck went to peyton's passing camp

[CR91]

San Diego did not pick Rivers. They picked Eli Manning. Brees had not yet proven himself, and San Diego had he first pick and took Manning as the first pick. No one would pass on Peyton Manning's brother. Then the Giants negotiated a trade because Manning did not want to play for San Diego. The Giants drafted Rivers and then swapped with San Diego for Manning.

i know that, but your missing the point im trying to make

[SanAntonioColt]

and how do you know this are you psychic? do you have a crystal to see in the future? i dont know if you know this or not but peyton and andrew have known each other since luck went to peyton's passing camp

No, I'm not psychic. My wife may have some crystal dinnerware, but I' not a fortuneteller. Like everybody else on this forum, I give my opinion. I believe a player of Peyton's stature and pride is not going to stand on the sidelines in meaningful games while another QB takes the snaps. I think the same could be said of Luck although he has not earned the acclaim Peyton has. If they are both Colts after the draft, it will not last for more trhan one season. That's my opinion. If it comes to pass that Luck is a Colt, we will see.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Rivers was not pretty much #1 overall; the Giants gave up #3 pick and other concessions to get Eli. Rivers didn't have close to the hype of Luck and was not considered nearly as NFL ready. At the time Rivers was drafted, Brees was considered an OK QB, but nothing like Peyton except they were both dealing with an injury. Luck and Peyton will not coexist for long if the Colts draft Luck. One will have to go and Luck has the best trade value.

Brees wasn't dealing with the shoulder injury until his last year in SD. It wasn't an issue when they acquired Rivers.

[Ramblinwreck7]

yes i know its not the same which is why i said people will poke holes, but still the chargers drafted a qb with a the first pick when they already had one who sat and is a top 10 arguably top 5 qb

And how has that worked out? Not so well considering that Drew Brees has been quite a bit better than Rivers lately.

[CR91]

And how has that worked out? Not so well considering that Drew Brees has been quite a bit better than Rivers lately.

true, but you guys are missing the point

[imacoltfan]

Brees wasn't dealing with the shoulder injury until his last year in SD. It wasn't an issue when they acquired Rivers.

No it wasn't the issue when they acquired Rivers, but the contract they offerred him after the 2005 season was so incentive laden it was a joke. He was a pro bowler in 2004 was an alternate in 2005 (but couldn't play becasue of the surgery) The shoulder injury accelerated his departure from San Diego. It was also the reason Miami passed on him.

[Jason_]

and how do you know this are you psychic? do you have a crystal to see in the future? i dont know if you know this or not but peyton and andrew have known each other since luck went to peyton's passing camp

Peyton also has known Nick Foles, Matt Barkley, Kellen Moore and many, many other QBs since the passing academy as well. Some people try to use the passing academy connection to prove the point that the Colts will draft Luck and all parties will be happy (not saying that's what you meant to imply) and that simply isn't true because there were a number of QBs at that camp, several who will be available in the 2012 draft.

[CR91]

Peyton also has known Nick Foles, Matt Barkley, Kellen Moore and many, many other QBs since the passing academy as well. Some people try to use the passing academy connection to prove the point that the Colts will draft Luck and all parties will be happy (not saying that's what you meant to imply) and that simply isn't true because there were a number of QBs at that camp, several who will be available in the 2012 draft.

thats just one connection. you saw the article on nfl.com right? how polian's son is an assistant at stanford. and how both peyton and andrew's dads know each other

[CR91]

No it wasn't the issue when they acquired Rivers, but the contract they offerred him after the 2005 season was so incentive laden it was a joke. He was a pro bowler in 2004 was an alternate in 2005 (but couldn't play becasue of the surgery) The shoulder injury accelerated his departure from San Diego. It was also the reason Miami passed on him.

the shoulder injury was just an escape reason from forcing them to make a decision on who to keep. most likely it would have been rivers either way.

[GoColts8818]

When Rivers was drafted Brees looked like a bust. Then Brees "figured" it out. So the Chargers left Rivers on the bench waiting to see if Brees had figured it out or was just having a fluke season. Once it became clear Brees had figured it out the Chargers were then faced with a choice once Brees deal was up, trade Rivers and resign Brees or let Brees leave and play Rivers. Depending on who you listened to in the media up till when Brees got hurt there were people who said they were going to keep Brees and move Rivers.

Also one could argue this has not worked out for the Chargers. While Brees went to a down and out team and won a Super Bowl with them Rivers stepped into maybe the most talented team in the NFL and has yet to even be to a Super Bowl. Not to say them losing is all his fault or that if Brees was there the Chargers would have won a Super Bowl but you can make a case the Chargers picked the wrong one.

[CR91]

When Rivers was drafted Brees looked like a bust. Then Brees "figured" it out. So the Chargers left Rivers on the bench waiting to see if Brees had figured it out or was just having a fluke season. Once it became clear Brees had figured it out the Chargers were then faced with a choice once Brees deal was up, trade Rivers and resign Brees or let Brees leave and play Rivers. Depending on who you listened to in the media up till when Brees got hurt there were people who said they were going to keep Brees and move Rivers.

Also one could argue this has not worked out for the Chargers. While Brees went to a down and out team and won a Super Bowl with them Rivers stepped into maybe the most talented team in the NFL and has yet to even be to a Super Bowl. Not to say them losing is all his fault or that if Brees was there the Chargers would have won a Super Bowl but you can make a case the Chargers picked the wrong one.

very true, but you also have to look at the coaches. if you look at marty's track record with the browns,chiefs, and chargers he had difficulty winning the playoffs. same with norv with the redskins and raiders

[Jason_]

thats just one connection. you saw the article on nfl.com right? how polian's son is an assistant at stanford. and how both peyton and andrew's dads know each other

Yes I am aware of the other connections as well. None of these connections, however, give any "clues" as to what will happen come draft day. And again, I'm not meaning to imply that's what you're saying...merely clarifying for the purpose of the thread.

[CR91]

Yes I am aware of the other connections as well. None of these connections, however, give any "clues" as to what will happen come draft day. And again, I'm not meaning to imply that's what you're saying...merely clarifying for the purpose of the thread.

well my intention for this thread is to show that a high drafted qb can sit for a couple years

[Jason_]

well my intention for this thread is to show that a high drafted qb can sit for a couple years

Sure he can. That doesn't mean that he will. We won't know that until April.

Also, in doing so you've also taken us to the last point in time when a #1 overall QB was drafted to a team with, let's just say QB uncertainty, and he (Eli) refused to sign with the team that drafted him and instead forced a trade. Perhaps to a team with a better FO or perhaps to a team where he felt he'd have a better chance of getting on the field as quickly as possible.

[CR91]

Sure he can. That doesn't mean that he will. We won't know that until April.

Also, in doing so you've also taken us to the last point in time when a #1 overall QB was drafted to a team with, let's just say QB uncertainty, and he (Eli) refused to sign with the team that drafted him and instead forced a trade. Perhaps to a team with a better FO or perhaps to a team where he felt he'd have a better chance of getting on the field as quickly as possible.

i remember the story about that and how archie told eli not to go to san diego because something about not treating there players right or something.

[Jason_]

i remember the story about that and how archie told eli not to go to san diego because something about not treating there players right or something.

Honestly I don't know what exactly went into the decision making that caused Eli to refuse to sign with SD, and I'd be skeptical of any reason that was given publicly by the family. Odds are, the actual truth will probably never be known to anyone outside the family. It might have been playing time, concerns about the front office, not wanting to live on the west coast...who knows. lol

[FireJimCaldwell]

I agree that we likely will never know the exact truth, but I do remember reading something at some point back then that one of the contributing factors was the Chargers being in the AFC, and that if the two sons faced each other in the Super Bowl then so be it, but they didn't really want them knocking one another out of the playoffs. That makes sense.

From what I remember each Manning brother share an agent with Schoteinheimer and he clearly clashed with J.A. Smith in San Diego and I'd be willing to bet that he was the source that suggested that Eli should try to get out of SD, even though he would be coaching him initially.

[GoColts8818]

very true, but you also have to look at the coaches. if you look at marty's track record with the browns,chiefs, and chargers he had difficulty winning the playoffs. same with norv with the redskins and raiders

Which is why I said I am not saying it's all Rivers fault or that I know if Brees would have won there if he had stayed there.

[bayone]

Brees was a decent QB before Rivers came along. He only became a superstar after Rivers was drafted. His worst season was right before Rivers was drafted. It's not even close to the same.

absolutely true, & then the shoulder injury at seasons end decided who they keep

[joshuajosh89]

Rivers was not pretty much #1 overall; the Giants gave up #3 pick and other concessions to get Eli. Rivers didn't have close to the hype of Luck and was not considered nearly as NFL ready. At the time Rivers was drafted, Brees was considered an OK QB, but nothing like Peyton except they were both dealing with an injury. Luck and Peyton will not coexist for long if the Colts draft Luck. One will have to go and Luck has the best trade value.

I dont know how you can say with certainty that they can not coexist together. Peyton is as professional as any player in the NFL, and if healthy he starts no matter if they draft Luck or not. Luck strikes me as a different sort of guy, not the normal NFL players that is only worried about himself. This is a guy Who passed up being the #1 pick and going into a situation were he would probably be starting from day 1, and potentially injuring himself, which would plummet his draft stock, in order to play for a chance at winning a national title. Mind you he had nothing else to prove physically, he was already the consensus #1 pick among 99% of people.

I believe he would welcome the opportunity to sit and learn behing the GOAT, and eventually take over the reins when his number was called.

[Jason_]

I dont know how you can say with certainty that they can not coexist together. Peyton is as professional as any player in the NFL, and if healthy he starts no matter if they draft Luck or not. Luck strikes me as a different sort of guy, not the normal NFL players that is only worried about himself. This is a guy Who passed up being the #1 pick and going into a situation were he would probably be starting from day 1, and potentially injuring himself, which would plummet his draft stock, in order to play for a chance at winning a national title. Mind you he had nothing else to prove physically, he was already the consensus #1 pick among 99% of people.

I believe he would welcome the opportunity to sit and learn behing the GOAT, and eventually take over the reins when his number was called.

Based on all the reports that came out, I believe earning his degree was the deciding factor in Luck staying in school.

[joshuajosh89]

Based on all the reports that came out, I believe earning his degree was the deciding factor in Luck staying in school.

Perfect, it reinforces my point even more, not many players are going to risk 10's of millions of dollars in order to earn a degree That they potentially will not use by choice, or because they are playing in the NFL.

Nothing Andrew Luck has said has made me believe that he will not sign with the Colts if drafted.

[MAC]

There are a couple of similarities in the situation which are relevant to the Colts, and they do nothing to alter my opinion that the Colts should trade the pick.

1) The Chargers, in essence, completely wasted an extremely high draft pick. Drafting Rivers created 2+ years of discomfort and disruption, then Brees walked away for free, and SD ended up with a QB who is clearly inferior to the one that they already had. Rivers can be a top flight QB, but it's pretty obvious that if they had either drafted another player or traded the pick, they would be in a much better situation today.

2) Rivers was forced to utterly waste the first two years of his career. That helps no one. He should have been starting from day one on a team that wanted to build around him.

3) Brees endured two years of garbage before being thrown away. He landed on his feet, but aside from the pure luck of ending up with a coach who knows how to play to his skills, that is hardly the desired career path for someone with that kind of talent. (And as an aside, maybe the Colts win the Super Bowl two years ago if Brees had stayed with the Chargers).

When you invest a high draft pick in a player, you put yourself in a situation where there is enormous pressure to play him - damaging your relationship with the previous QB. I don't want years of tension and controversy, I don't want to see Peyton playing for another team, I don't want to see a top QB prospect wasting away on the bench. IF Peyton is healthy, I say trade the pick and try to maximize the years he has left.

[doogansquest]

There are a couple of similarities in the situation which are relevant to the Colts, and they do nothing to alter my opinion that the Colts should trade the pick.

1) The Chargers, in essence, completely wasted an extremely high draft pick. Drafting Rivers created 2+ years of discomfort and disruption, then Brees walked away for free, and SD ended up with a QB who is clearly inferior to the one that they already had. Rivers can be a top flight QB, but it's pretty obvious that if they had either drafted another player or traded the pick, they would be in a much better situation today.

2) Rivers was forced to utterly waste the first two years of his career. That helps no one. He should have been starting from day one on a team that wanted to build around him.

3) Brees endured two years of garbage before being thrown away. He landed on his feet, but aside from the pure luck of ending up with a coach who knows how to play to his skills, that is hardly the desired career path for someone with that kind of talent. (And as an aside, maybe the Colts win the Super Bowl two years ago if Brees had stayed with the Chargers).

When you invest a high draft pick in a player, you put yourself in a situation where there is enormous pressure to play him - damaging your relationship with the previous QB. I don't want years of tension and controversy, I don't want to see Peyton playing for another team, I don't want to see a top QB prospect wasting away on the bench. IF Peyton is healthy, I say trade the pick and try to maximize the years he has left.

The End.

Seriously, there is no viewpoint contradictory to this one that makes as much sense.

The only thing people are using as a reason for why we ABSOLUTELY HAVE to take Luck, is the Favre/Rodgers transition. Which was messy in it's own right, by the way.

[Andy]

The End.

Seriously, there is no viewpoint contradictory to this one that makes as much sense.

The only thing people are using as a reason for why we ABSOLUTELY HAVE to take Luck, is the Favre/Rodgers transition. Which was messy in it's own right, by the way.

But look at the result of it... a super bowl 3 years into his stint, and the favorites to win another.

[doogansquest]

But look at the result of it... a super bowl 3 years into his stint, and the favorites to win another.

So that means Luck is going to be exactly the same, right? That mess is worth dumping Manning for? Unlike Favre, Manning isn't a diva. Unlike the Packers, the Colts also don't have a stupid-amazing team in place to make that happen.

What then? Complete philosophy change? Great, wait 5 years and hope it pans out.

Keep Manning and build for Luck? Great, wait 5 years and hope it pans out.

Dump Manning and start Luck immediately? Great, watch his career cut short while he gets creamed; maybe in 5 years there will be a team around him.

The situation isn't the same. The players in question aren't the same. The teams aren't the same. Rodgers was under no pressure to succeed (as there were no projections or expectations of success for the little-known, awkward throwing motion passer from California).

We could try to win 2-3 more Super Bowls with Manning, and then worry about QB #Next; or plan for Luck, and probably regress for the next 10 years.

The latter happens a lot to pseudo-dynasties when teams don't try and maximize what they have. The Elway situation would be infinitely better for us, and for more likely (given our circumstances) than the Rodgers scenario, which has happened all of once in history, and may not last.

Speaking of whom: how much of the Packers success do you attribute to Rodgers anyway? A 38 year old Favre lead that same team to an NFC Championship. If Rodgers were on our team, he'd have missed the playoffs every year thus far. He's a system guy; nothing more, nothing less. Luck is another system guy, and needs 200+ yards of rushing per game to be threatening to lowly PAC12 defenses.

As per usual, your arguments are weak, flawed, and the least likely to result in success were they to translate to real life.

[Ramblinwreck7]

But look at the result of it... a super bowl 3 years into his stint, and the favorites to win another.

Yeah, but they lost 2 or 3 years where they probably had a very good chance of winning a Super Bowl with Brett Favre. They had to waste a couple of years of a very talented team to let Aaron Rodgers develop. Rodgers is a good quarterback, but I didn't like the transition from Favre to him at all and how the Packers basically threw Favre away and forced him into a trade with the Jets.