Eagles's Cary Williams: Patriots are 'cheaters'

[Jiggy]

Man, you guys truly have no idea what Soygate was about.

None of you apparently read Goodell's quote up above .

If you don't want to understand the facts, that's your own problem.

This has been very amusing, but if you refuse to use reason and understand what Goodell said, then it's simply because your hatred is blinding you.

how come you didnt answer my question i answered yours? 

 

 

Shhhh... It's been proven that the Patriots didn't use the film in games, but some are blinded by their hatred.

Myths are created in such ways.

 

how could anyone possibly prove that? because the saint bill said so? or this https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

 

 

Those are still photos not game film. You still have to get all the videos from the camera men - watch them and then try to sync up with the photos in just 12 minutes. There is no earthly possibility of getting much done beyond maybe one or two formations and even then teams change their signals at halftime. Charlie Weiss, the Pats OC who was with Notre Dame when spygate broke said the taping was done for R&D. It just made the process quicker to have the signals on tape vs someone writing them down from the stands which is how they used to do it.

just because you cant do it doesnt mean there isnt someone who can. 

 

do you really think it is not possible that the Patriots members of the organization past or present didnt downplay or outright lie about spygate? sheeple i swear...

[amfootball]

 

how come you didnt answer my question i answered yours? 

 

 

 

how could anyone possibly prove that? because the saint bill said so? or this https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

 

 

just because you cant do it doesnt mean there isnt someone who can. 

 

Can I just say it is hard to take you seriously with the screen name "Jiggy."

[Jiggy]

Can I just say it is hard to take you seriously with the screen name "Jiggy."

when all else fails just change the subject...

 

hard to take seirously a bunch of clown patriot trolls on a colts board saying the patriots commited spy gate for no reason at all and just broke serious nfl rules for no reason just to mess around

[xXBOXADDICTx]

Shhhh... It's been proven that the Patriots didn't use the film in games, but some are blinded by their hatred.

Myths are created in such ways.

Wheres the proof they did'nt gain an advantage from the rule they were breaking?

[Bobbycovert]

For those who value data over irrational ramblings....http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the-patriots-opponents-wont-let-spygate-die-but-did-it-really-matter/

[Kyle]

Wow.

You didn't even answer my question.

Guess that's because you know the real answer.

Just like Polian.

Just like Dungy.

wow.

 

you didn't even read my post.

 

you are majoring on the minors.  I don't remember exactly what they filmed.  Don't care to look it up because if you read what I am saying, it doesn't matter.  The only reason, i repeat, only reason they would have taken the time to record what they did, would be to gain an advantage or benefit.  Argue with me on that statement again, and I am just going to ignore you.  You are still embarrassing yourself 

[Kyle]

 

 

hard to take seirously a bunch of clown patriot trolls on a colts board saying the patriots commited spy gate for no reason at all and just broke serious nfl rules for no reason just to mess around

EXACTLY!!!!! 

[amfootball]

when all else fails just change the subject...

 

hard to take seirously a bunch of clown patriot trolls on a colts board saying the patriots commited spy gate for no reason at all and just broke serious nfl rules for no reason just to mess around

lol. Just trying to lighten the mood. Relax. These threads on spygate have been going on forever and in case you didn't know the thread was started by a Colts fan to incite Pats fans.

[amfootball]

wow.

 

you didn't even read my post.

 

you are majoring on the minors.  I don't remember exactly what they filmed.  Don't care to look it up because if you read what I am saying, it doesn't matter.  The only reason, i repeat, only reason they would have taken the time to record what they did, would be to gain an advantage or benefit.  Argue with me on that statement again, and I am just going to ignore you.  You are still embarrassing yourself 

Who is arguing the benefit? They admitted to taping the signals and were fined for the location of the camera. They taped them because it was faster for R&D using taped signals then having someone write them down from the stands which was how they used to do it. 

[ViriLudant]

Wheres the proof they did'nt gain an advantage from the rule they were breaking?

Wait, YOU are claiming that an advantage was gained. Polian and Dungy say otherwise.

[xXBOXADDICTx]

Wait, YOU are claiming that an advantage was gained. Polian and Dungy say otherwise.

Wheres YOUR proof they did'nt gain an advantage from the rule they were breaking?

[Shane Bond]

 

This is one of the most stupid questions asked on this forum.  

 

Many teams change signals week to week.  That is because teams see the signals during their film review.  But to answer your question, teams develop their game plan based on tendencies, team A runs the ball over the RG 43.4% of the time one 2 and 6 when they are between the 20, for example.  The taping of signals takes the guess work out for the coordinators.  In the 2nd half of the game, rather than calling a defense based on the tendency of the team to run, all they have to do is watch the signal and call the appropriate D.  Sure the players still have to play but it's much easier to play when you know it's going to be a run over the RG rather than thinking well, it's most likely a run but I can't commit too quickly in case that TE sneaks out for a pass.

 

I know Pats fans will say, "But BB said they never used it during the game..."  Yeah right, kind of like Obama said if you like your insurance you will get keep your insurance.

 

Now answer these questions:

• If there is no competitive advantage then why do it?
• If there is no value to watching film then why do coaches and players spend hours watching film/
• If it wasn't any big deal then why did the league fine the coach(largest fine in league history at the time) and the owner(largest owner fine in league history) and take away draft picks?

 

Other than getting edgy and starting to make personal attack, there wont be answer to these from any of them.

[Shane Bond]

Personally I don't blame him for not responding.  Its ignorant at best to argue that the Patriots have somehow imploded post-spygate. Since then, they have had an undefeated regular season, two AFC Championships, and the highest winning percentage in the league.  They were a miracle catch by Tyree and a drop by Welker from winning two more Superbowls.  It is especially ridiculous hearing the "postseason" argument from Colts fans who rush to defend Peyton whenever someone mentions how often he craps the bed in the post season.

Yeah very true. We have a post season record without *.

 

Not trying to generalize but why cant most of the Pats fans in this forum have a conversation decent without getting all edgy and defensive?. Is it that bad up in Boston?. It is becoming hilarious. 

 

Of course, my man Yehoodi is not included in that list and i am sure there are a few good ones. He is one class act.  

[Shane Bond]

Can I just say it is hard to take you seriously with the screen name "Jiggy."

Yeah, SOP ( Standard Operating Procedure ). Deviate from topic and make personal attacks. 

[Shane Bond]

lol. Just trying to lighten the mood. Relax. These threads on spygate have been going on forever and in case you didn't know the thread was started by a Colts fan to incite Pats fans.

LOL, another post about the poster. 

 

Yeah i don't make up stories or talk garbage and make personal attacks. The original post was created with a link provided. Thanks to Cary Williams.

[Vance]

Wheres YOUR proof they did'nt gain an advantage from the rule they were breaking?

 

Burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

[Bobbycovert]

Yeah very true. We have a post season record without *.

 

Not trying to generalize but why cant most of the Pats fans in this forum have a conversation decent without getting all edgy and defensive?. Is it that bad up in Boston?. It is becoming hilarious. 

 

Of course, my man Yehoodi is not included in that list and i am sure there are a few good ones. He is one class act.  

First off, I'm not a Pats fan. I'm a Colts fan who finds these petty shots at the Patriots organization embarrassing.  Second, you can make infantile quips about asterisks but the Patriots don't have an asterisk.  Lets be honest.  Which team currently has a star player with a four game suspension for using a banned substance to possibly gain a competitive advantage? It ain't the Pats. Glass houses etc. 

[Shane Bond]

First off, I'm not a Pats fan. I'm a Colts fan who finds these petty shots at the Patriots organization embarrassing.  Second, you can make infantile quips about asterisks but the Patriots don't have an asterisk.  Lets be honest.  Which team currently has a star player with a four game suspension for using a banned substance to possibly gain a competitive advantage? It ain't the Pats. Glass houses etc. 

First off, i never said you are a Pats fan.

 

Secondly, since you have come forward and being kind enough to disclose your fanhood, i don't see a single post of yours saying  Pats fans petty for calling out Howard Mudd when he indeed was not fined a single dollar for his actions.

 

Nice job, "Colts fan".

[Kyle]

Who is arguing the benefit? They admitted to taping the signals and were fined for the location of the camera. They taped them because it was faster for R&D using taped signals then having someone write them down from the stands which was how they used to do it. 

Who is arguing the benfit??  2 ways you could figure this out.    1. Read the thread  2.  Look at who i quoted and responded to when making my post. 

 

First off, I'm not a Pats fan. I'm a Colts fan who finds these petty shots at the Patriots organization embarrassing.  Second, you can make infantile quips about asterisks but the Patriots don't have an asterisk.  Lets be honest.  Which team currently has a star player with a four game suspension for using a banned substance to possibly gain a competitive advantage? It ain't the Pats. Glass houses etc. 

Prove he had a competitive advantage..........just kidding.  

 

Yep, Mathis broke the rules and is being penalized for it.  I am willing to admit that.  I wish he wouldn't have done it but if he truly needed it to have another child, and that's what him and his wife wanted to do, I would have done the same thing he did.  4 game suspension in exchange for a child for the rest of your life.   

[amfootball]

Who is arguing the benfit??  2 ways you could figure this out.    1. Read the thread  2.  Look at who i quoted and responded to when making my post. 

 

Prove he had a competitive advantage..........just kidding.  

 

Yep, Mathis broke the rules and is being penalized for it.  I am willing to admit that.  I wish he wouldn't have done it but if he truly needed it to have another child, and that's what him and his wife wanted to do, I would have done the same thing he did.  4 game suspension in exchange for a child for the rest of your life.   

No one is saying there was no benefit. The issue is the perceived benefit vs the real benefit.

[Shane Bond]

Who is arguing the benfit??  2 ways you could figure this out.    1. Read the thread  2.  Look at who i quoted and responded to when making my post. 

 

Prove he had a competitive advantage..........just kidding.  

 

Yep, Mathis broke the rules and is being penalized for it.  I am willing to admit that.  I wish he wouldn't have done it but if he truly needed it to have another child, and that's what him and his wife wanted to do, I would have done the same thing he did.  4 game suspension in exchange for a child for the rest of your life.   

You, Coffeedrinker and myself and many others will ask them to answer few questions.

 

We will never get answers to them except cheap shots. Wait and watch.

[sweetsurrender]

Boy does Williams come off as sour grapes. Guessed he missed Ray and his deer antler spray. 

 

As for spygate, Pats record shows it was the biggest sports non-story of the 21st century. As a Colts fan, it is sad the comments here. Mudd was a notorious signal stealer and I was glad we have him. Every team employs people to gain a competitive advantage. Up to opponents to keep the guessing.

[Kyle]

No one is saying there was no benefit. The issue is the perceived benefit vs the real benefit.

READ THE THREAD!!!!   multiple requests to "prove" the pats benefited have been requested.  If you are going to butt in...at least read the thread. 

[ViriLudant]

READ THE THREAD!!!! multiple requests to "prove" the pats benefited have been requested. If you are going to butt in...at least read the thread.

Polian and Dungy both said that Spygate didn't help the Patriots win.

So where's your actual complaint?

[amfootball]

READ THE THREAD!!!!   multiple requests to "prove" the pats benefited have been requested.  If you are going to butt in...at least read the thread. 

Oh stop. I was talking about why they videotaped the signals to begin with which is what Bill has said over and over. He taped them to use for R&D. They were never used in game. So there is your benefit as to why they did it in the first place. In terms of how doing that helped them win games? There is no proof of that because in the end it is just signal stealing and teams change signals. As Bill said there are a myriads of things, over 100 that go into a game plan. He put watching signals as 1 out of 100 on the list in terms of helping the pre-game preparation. At some point you really need to educate yourself on this. All of the articles and Bills quotes are out there. He never hid or concealed anything and admitted he was wrong for not for following the memo and keeping the camera off the sideline.

[TAPLOOK]

You guys do understand that the memo was sent out to all 32 teams right?

[Coffeedrinker]

Those are still photos not game film. You still have to get all the videos from the camera men - watch them and then try to sync up with the photos in just 12 minutes. There is no earthly possibility of getting much done beyond maybe one or two formations and even then teams change their signals at halftime. Charlie Weiss, the Pats OC who was with Notre Dame when spygate broke said the taping was done for R&D. It just made the process quicker to have the signals on tape vs someone writing them down from the stands which is how they used to do it.

Oh my word.  Do you think they have a guy up there with a Nikon snapping pictures?  It's a video camera that they print screen shots from.  As far as the absolutely ridiculous comment about they have to wait until half time is almost as weak.  Most video is stored digitally (that is how players can view game film on their IPAD and Tablets (in case you haven't noticed there is no tape slot on a tablet).  

 

Lastly, Weiss towed the company line and gave the standard talking points... wow, big surprise.

[dynasty13]

... I would be embarrassed if the Colts did.  Would I disown them?  no, but i sure would admit to it

 

So is your main beef actually the perception that it doesn't seem like Patriots fans are 'admitting' to it?

 

Because having been on this board now for about 10 years now, I can say with certainly that no Patriots fan has ever denied that Spygate happened, nor have they tried to dispute any facts about what actually took place.

 

Read that part again: Patriots fans haven't tried to dispute any facts about what actually took place.

 

But when you are a fan of a team, you want to defend them. Opinions are easy to dispute. Facts are not.

 

Unfortunately many consistently confuse what is a fact and what is their personal opinion based solely on speculation. THAT is what Patriots fans respond to. THAT is what causes these threads to degenerate into what they typically turn into. If people want to have legitimate discussions about Spygate, nobody has a problem with that. In fact we have had many good ones here over the years, but the ones that turn bad usually start with a piece of misinformation or the accuser makes some blanket statement proving they don't actually know the facts while simultaneously trying to present their opinion as fact. As I said earlier, it's very telling that the ones who typically make the most noise about Spygate are those who seem to know the least about it.

 

But look...yes, Patriots fans were embarrassed about it. I was here when the story broke, I was here during the immediate aftermath. I never once tried to make the case that it didn't happen, I never once tried to make the case they didn't do it. It was a black mark on the organization that unfortunately still has many looking at it as some kind of trump card when trying to undermine any accomplishments. And I never mind a respectful discussion about it, and most Patriots fans are the same way. But what I have no tolerance for is when someone is ignorant about a topic when they are so sure they are right about it. I am 100% aware of the reasons many hate this team. Some reasons are well-warranted, some are not. When fans hate you, it means you are relevant. We welcome that. But when it gets to the point where that hate blinds you from truth...when it gets to the point where that hate skews your objectivity....well....it just makes it difficult to have a good discussion. Both sides of the argument are looking for and claiming the same thing: proof. The problem is that while one side accuses the other of not having anything to confirm their belief, they themselves don't either. What makes one side right and one side wrong when neither has anything other than speculation and belief based on what color jersey their team wears? In the end, we are right back where we started, Spygate happened 7 years ago and nothing new has been proved or disproved since, and it's time to stop using it as excuse for why a team won the Superbowl 10 years ago. 

[Coffeedrinker]

Burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

One that is in a court of law, the NFL can hand down punishment based on whatever evidence they want to use.

 

The NFL got the proof it needed, that is why they handed down some the largest fines in NFL history and took a 1st round draft pick.  Then, literally, burned all the evidence to protect the integrity of the game.

 

Only after the evidence was burned did the talk begin, around the league, that it didn't help them.

[Coffeedrinker]

So is your main beef actually the perception that it doesn't seem like Patriots fans are 'admitting' to it?

 

Because having been on this board now for about 10 years now, I can say with certainly that no Patriots fan has ever denied that Spygate happened, nor have they tried to dispute any facts about what actually took place.

 

Read that part again: Patriots fans haven't tried to dispute any facts about what actually took place.

 

But when you are a fan of a team, you want to defend them. Opinions are easy to dispute. Facts are not.

 

I can't speak from everyone but of course Pat fans have to admit spygate happened.  It's the attitude that it was no big deal and that it really wasn't any more different than a holding penalty.  I've read quotes from Pats that state, everyone does it, if you're not cheating, your not trying, they didn't use it during the games, blah blah blah.

 

When the fact is the Patriots lost a first round pick and received some of the largest fines in NFL history.  That does not happen if:

• Because the camera was in the wrong spot.
• If not competitive advantage was gained.
• If it is something that everyone else does.
• If it really wasn't that big a deal.

[ViriLudant]

One that is in a court of law, the NFL can hand down punishment based on whatever evidence they want to use.

The NFL got the proof it needed, that is why they handed down some the largest fines in NFL history and took a 1st round draft pick. Then, literally, burned all the evidence to protect the integrity of the game.

Only after the evidence was burned did the talk begin, around the league, that it didn't help them.

Wrong. Again.

A sample of the videos was aired . Did you actually see it? Apparently not.

[ViriLudant]

<p>

I can't speak from everyone but of course Pat fans have to admit spygate happened. It's the attitude that it was no big deal and that it really wasn't any more different than a holding penalty. I've read quotes from Pats that state, everyone does it, if you're not cheating, your not trying, they didn't use it during the games, blah blah blah.

When the fact is the Patriots lost a first round pick and received some of the largest fines in NFL history. That does not happen if:

• Because the camera was in the wrong spot.
• If not competitive advantage was gained.
• If it is something that everyone else does.
• If it really wasn't that big a deal.

I've asked this many times , and NONE of you have answered this.

What competitive advantage was gained?

Polian said none.

Dungy said none.

So how do YOU know more than those two?

You all refuse to answer this.

[Coffeedrinker]

Wrong. Again.

A sample of the videos was aired . Did you actually see it? Apparently not.

Yes when it first broke... That is how I knew they filmed the signals and then filmed the game clock.  That was before the league started it's investigation.  But if you don't believe me about destroying the evidence then perhaps you should read:

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3225539

http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/story?id=09000d5d8066c8af&template=with-video&confirm=true

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/sports/football/16spy.html?_r=0

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2008-02-01/goodell-defends-destroying-spygate-evidence

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/2008/02/02/Destruction-of-Spygate-tapes-a-crooked-act/stories/200802020159

 

There are many others is you don't believe, ESPN, NFL, NY Times, Sporting News or the Post Gazette.

[Kyle]

 

But look...yes, Patriots fans were embarrassed about it. I was here when the story broke, I was here during the immediate aftermath. I never once tried to make the case that it didn't happen, I never once tried to make the case they didn't do it. It was a black mark on the organization that unfortunately still has many looking at it as some kind of trump card when trying to undermine any accomplishments. And I never mind a respectful discussion about it, and most Patriots fans are the same way. But what I have no tolerance for is when someone is ignorant about a topic when they are so sure they are right about it. I am 100% aware of the reasons many hate this team. Some reasons are well-warranted, some are not. When fans hate you, it means you are relevant. We welcome that. But when it gets to the point where that hate blinds you from truth...when it gets to the point where that hate skews your objectivity....well....it just makes it difficult to have a good discussion. Both sides of the argument are looking for and claiming the same thing: proof. The problem is that while one side accuses the other of not having anything to confirm their belief, they themselves don't either. What makes one side right and one side wrong when neither has anything other than speculation and belief based on what color jersey their team wears? In the end, we are right back where we started, Spygate happened 7 years ago and nothing new has been proved or disproved since, and it's time to stop using it as excuse for why a team won the Superbowl 10 years ago. 

Thank you.  Very respectable well spoken comment.  Please read the quote below from your fellow Pats fan and you may see more of where I was coming from though.

 

I've asked this many times , and NONE of you have answered this.

What competitive advantage was gained?

Polian said none.

Dungy said none.

So how do YOU know more than those two?

You all refuse to answer this.

 

I answered many times.   The exact way the befitted is impossible to explain because the tapes were destroyed.  

 

Will you answer a couple questions please?      

 

1.  Did the Patriots ever video tape anything that was against the rules?

 

2.  If answer yes to question 1 then....  Why would they do that other than to gain something from it?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is so stupid

[Coffeedrinker]

I've asked this many times , and NONE of you have answered this.

What competitive advantage was gained?

Polian said none.

Dungy said none.

So how do YOU know more than those two?

You all refuse to answer this.

I've answered it several times,  Look back on page three.

 

I realize that as a Pats fan that if Kraft or Bill say it then you believe it and perhaps even change your mind to agree with them.  Me, not so much.  I like Polian and and I'm a big Dungy fan that doesn't mean just because they say something that I agree with it.  Do I know more than those two?  About some things most definitely, about football probably not.  But my lively hood is not tied to the NFL and therefore I'm not told to spout the company line.

[GoPats]

Oh my word.  Do you think they have a guy up there with a Nikon snapping pictures?  It's a video camera that they print screen shots from.  As far as the absolutely ridiculous comment about they have to wait until half time is almost as weak.  Most video is stored digitally (that is how players can view game film on their IPAD and Tablets (in case you haven't noticed there is no tape slot on a tablet).  

 

Lastly, Weiss towed the company line and gave the standard talking points... wow, big surprise.

 

Not a Nikon, but at one point it was a Polaroid:

 

NEW YORK -- NFL teams used to take Polaroid pictures of plays from atop the stadium during games then send them down to the field on a rope.

 

 

Technology improved so that an automated camera could deliver the images to a printer on the sideline, creating that familiar sight of a quarterback staring at a sheet of paper to figure out what went wrong on an interception.

 

 

 

That was still the case last season, when fans in the stands could watch highlights on their smartphones, but players and coaches were flipping through three-ring binders of black-and-white photos.

 

The NFL sideline is finally catching up.

 

 

Sort of.

 

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26271954/nfl-sideline-tech-inches-forward-tablets-replace-polaroids

 

 

You know I've been here for a long time and am a straight shooter. Teams do not get video in-game. Of course it's available to anyone with a tablet, smart phone, DVR, etc. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but no source out there indicates that the "all 22" film is created and/or distributed to teams while the game is being played.

 

I obviously would not argue any facts about Spygate. They were caught filming. The question, like I said earlier, is how much did it help, and how was it used?

 

Let's discuss - respectfully as always. Consider for a moment what would be necessary to use the sideline video in-game. 

 

1. Sideline cameraman films the clock and defensive play calls.

 

2. That video then needs to be lined up with televised game film, which must be recorded on a DVR or hard drive so it can be ran back and forward. 

 

3. The play has to be broken down and (roughly) decoded in terms of man/zone coverage, blitz or 4-man rush, etc.

 

4. The coordinators hand signals have to be deciphered. I assume that, like in baseball, the "real" signal is hidden in a bunch of random gesturing. I don't know for sure because no NFL teams responded to my unsolicited resume and cover letter. ;)  But even if that's not the case, the task remains the same: You have to line up the play they ran with the signal you saw.

 

5. Then you have to create some kind of index of plays and calls to reference on the fly. Maybe this info would be jotted down. Maybe it would be laid out with screen captures. Either way it's something that would be necessary in order to use the information that you have. 

 

6. Then you have to take that information and, within the confines of the play clock, "steal" the defensive play call, select a play to counter, and communicate it to the QB. This happens on the fly with the clock ticking, substitutions coming in and out, etc.

 

7. Even if 1-6 goes perfectly, then you have to execute the play. 

 

 

How many people would an operation like that require? How many cameras, monitors, computers, etc? What about communication systems? Radios, etc. There are a lot of people running around on NFL sidelines but would you be able to conceal an operation of that magnitude? And if you did conceal the rest of it, why leave the cameraman out there in plain view when you can put him up in the stands, in a team box, or anywhere else? What's the most logical and believable answer? 

 

Also, how many times in a single game does a team call the same play? I'm sure that varies. 

 

I'm not sure myself if this is all coming from the logical part of my brain or the fan part. When a person wants to believe something he/she will tend to believe it. But trying to be as objective as I can, I honestly don't see this immensely elaborate and clandestine operation ever existing in Foxboro. Belichick is known for his thoroughness and tenacity; I'm sure there was some sort of long term, R&D type value in filming the signals, but doubt that it could have made an immediate impact on any games. My guess is that it was more about tendencies. 

 

To speak to Cary Williams' rant... defensive calls are no longer signaled in. Maybe he believes something else is going on, but if he does he didn't have the stones to say it. 

 

And I'd add that most of you, in the ongoing debates over the years, mostly credit the Patriots' defense with the 3 championships. I'd agree that unit was the heart and soul of the team, and certainly the catalyst for the Rams-Pats Super Bowl. Keeping that in mind, Spygate was never about stealing offensive plays. If you believe the defense carried the team, then - by default, almost - you've got to believe that the impact of Spygate was nominal. 

 

That's what I got. Looking forward to your reply... 

[GoPats]

EDIT: Double post.  

[sweetsurrender]

So is your main beef actually the perception that it doesn't seem like Patriots fans are 'admitting' to it?

 

Because having been on this board now for about 10 years now, I can say with certainly that no Patriots fan has ever denied that Spygate happened, nor have they tried to dispute any facts about what actually took place.

 

Read that part again: Patriots fans haven't tried to dispute any facts about what actually took place.

 

But when you are a fan of a team, you want to defend them. Opinions are easy to dispute. Facts are not.

 

Unfortunately many consistently confuse what is a fact and what is their personal opinion based solely on speculation. THAT is what Patriots fans respond to. THAT is what causes these threads to degenerate into what they typically turn into. If people want to have legitimate discussions about Spygate, nobody has a problem with that. In fact we have had many good ones here over the years, but the ones that turn bad usually start with a piece of misinformation or the accuser makes some blanket statement proving they don't actually know the facts while simultaneously trying to present their opinion as fact. As I said earlier, it's very telling that the ones who typically make the most noise about Spygate are those who seem to know the least about it.

 

But look...yes, Patriots fans were embarrassed about it. I was here when the story broke, I was here during the immediate aftermath. I never once tried to make the case that it didn't happen, I never once tried to make the case they didn't do it. It was a black mark on the organization that unfortunately still has many looking at it as some kind of trump card when trying to undermine any accomplishments. And I never mind a respectful discussion about it, and most Patriots fans are the same way. But what I have no tolerance for is when someone is ignorant about a topic when they are so sure they are right about it. I am 100% aware of the reasons many hate this team. Some reasons are well-warranted, some are not. When fans hate you, it means you are relevant. We welcome that. But when it gets to the point where that hate blinds you from truth...when it gets to the point where that hate skews your objectivity....well....it just makes it difficult to have a good discussion. Both sides of the argument are looking for and claiming the same thing: proof. The problem is that while one side accuses the other of not having anything to confirm their belief, they themselves don't either. What makes one side right and one side wrong when neither has anything other than speculation and belief based on what color jersey their team wears? In the end, we are right back where we started, Spygate happened 7 years ago and nothing new has been proved or disproved since, and it's time to stop using it as excuse for why a team won the Superbowl 10 years ago. 

Well said sir. Maybe the best and most rational post on this topic but I know somehow it will get twisted. The hate is deep.

[dynasty13]

Thank you.  Very respectable well spoken comment.  Please read the quote below from your fellow Pats fan and you may see more of where I was coming from though.

 

 

I answered many times.   The exact way the befitted is impossible to explain because the tapes were destroyed.  

 

Will you answer a couple questions please?      

 

1.  Did the Patriots ever video tape anything that was against the rules?

 

2.  If answer yes to question 1 then....  Why would they do that other than to gain something from it?  

 

 

This is so stupid

 

1. Yes and no. What they recorded was not against the rules...but where they recorded it from was. But by the letter of the law, yes...they cheated. That's the term you are waiting for a Patriots fan to say, right?

 

2. From all accounts, taping allowed them to break down play calls and signals more easily and quickly than if they had to do it with pen and paper. It seems as though what they actually gained was time.

 

With that said, using the phrase they 'cheated' implies that they did something to dishonestly help them win...and I don't think (and again, this is just my opinion) that 'filming signals' instead of 'writing down signals' is a comparable 'cheat' to something like copying answers on a test to get an A, stashing an ace during a card game, or corking a bat. 

 

I hope those answers suffice and helps to 'clear up' the perspective that most Patriots fans have on the topic.

[amfootball]

1. Yes and no. What they recorded was not against the rules...but where they recorded it from was. But by the letter of the law, yes...they cheated. That's the term you are waiting for a Patriots fan to say, right?

 

2. From all accounts, taping allowed them to break down play calls and signals more easily and quickly than if they had to do it with pen and paper. It seems as though what they actually gained was time.

 

With that said, using the phrase they 'cheated' implies that they did something to dishonestly help them win...and I don't think (and again, this is just my opinion) that 'filming signals' instead of 'writing down signals' is a comparable 'cheat' to something like copying answers on a test to get an A, stashing an ace during a card game, or corking a bat. 

 

I hope those answers suffice and helps to 'clear up' the perspective that most Patriots fans have on the topic.

The other point I would add to this is as a Pats fans when this first broke, I was watching intently to see if the team's success declined post-spygate. I think had then been a dramatic decline then I would have put much more stock in spygate but the team has had a higher winner percentage, been back to the bowl 2 more times and was within a miracle catch of a perfect season. And, as others have already pointed out, Brady became an elite, league MVP QB post spygate when the defensive signal stealing was supposed to help him the most. As they say, the proof is in the pudding and all the haters like Williams really have is that the Pats have not won another SB which really is no argument at all.