The biggest impact pass catcher in NFL history is...

[Yehoodi]

Can't imagine what his all-time numbers would look like if he was playing with Peyton his entire career.

 

Geez plenty of post in this thread . . . gonna want to response to a few and I guess this is a good as any to start with . .  . I might end up answering other posts with this one, but like get started and see where we end up . . .  

 

First off, Welker is white, 5'8" and so that by definition can not make him the greatest impact WR . . .   . . .  he has had the luck to play with two great QBs and have had surrounding talent . . . surely he was a key factor and glad to see him doing well in Denver . . . but when one looks back you see a steady stream of teammates from Moss/Gaffney and crew, to Gronk/Hernandez/Lyodd to the teammates in Denver . . .

 

Second, your statement sounds nice but one must understand the two teams, players, and philosophies . . . had Welker played in NE with Peyton, and Moss, and Gronk, and Hernandez, and our rushing TDs, and so on and so on . . . his number would not be that different . . . Indeed, his present receptions and yards are not that much off but are even lower, which as something to do with other weapons on Denver . . . yes he has more TDs but he is being thrown to more in the red zone then when he was here in NE . . . he was not the top option for NE . . . and as such his numbers will be lower . . . It never bothered me that he did not garner a lot of TDs here in NE and I never held it against him or that he did "not" produce TDs that some stats blinded people would say against him . . . he help get the team to the red zone and if others are targets, so be it . . . he did his job in my book . . . I do not get too wrapped up in stats as some in the media might get . . .

[Yehoodi]

Edleman has nowhere near Welker's productivity and  what does the return game have to do with anything? Edleman was returning punts when Welker was there anyway. 

 

Just admit you're team outsmarted itself in opting to sign Danny "Glass" Amendola over Welker.

 

the return game has to do with roster spots . . . this team was unlikely going to have three slot WRs . . . and if Edelman can produce in the return game (and as fan of stats that you are Dustin you will appreciate the fact that Edelman has one of the best averages in the history of the NFL) . . . and you have Amendola coming in to replace Welker, you are not going to carry all three . . .

 

look basically Welker v. Amendola is Manning v. Luck 2.0 on a smaller scale, and what was one of the key points of the discussion?  it was point about lets not talk about this year but the entire body of work moving forward, which includes not the instant year (in which Manning is out performing Luck) but years 3, 4, 5, 6, and so on . . . the problem with Welker is not this year but perhaps next year and certain two years from now . . . Welker may very well still be productive but I there is a lot of wear on his tires . . . meanwhile we will have Amendola in the 3rd year of his contract in his prime  . . . the "problem" with Welker (and manning too) is that sure you might have better option in this year and perhaps next, but where does it leave us year . . . if Amendola is signed somewhere else, who else are we going to go to down the road, yes we may find a good slot WR, but like the Luck draft pick, its a bird in the hand or two in the bush . . . we have Amendola waiting, we like what we see and we jump on it and opposed to seeing what will be in the bush in 2015 . .. that is all . .

 

let see how the careers turn out . . . BB and NE have the philosophy of jettison players one year too soon as opposed to one year too late . . . they do not always work out, like Adam V., but more often than not it works out for the pats . . . and we really can not just the decision just based on a half season . . .  

[Moose Of Woe]

From Welker, to Manning, to Brady, to racism.

 

 

 

 

 

I love this forum.

[Yehoodi]

I agree they needed new blood on the outside...and those youngins will be good....but Edelman definately isn't replacing Welkers numbers....in fact he is only at 1/3 of Welkers production half way through the season. Amendola is basically replacing Edelman and if that is what you signed him for....you got it. Lets be honest...nothing we say will convince her otherwise so its pointless....we have no dog in the fight but we just can't be objective.

 

Edelman has 49 receptions and 473 yards . . . that brings him to something like 90+ receptions for the year and close to 900 yards not to shabby when you look at those numbers are being produced in a year in which our offense is having its worst year since Brady has come to town . . . Also, Edelman is having to share duty with Amendola . . . which is taking away from his snaps and opportunity . . .

[Dustin]

Geez plenty of post in this thread . . . gonna want to response to a few and I guess this is a good as any to start with . . . I might end up answering other posts with this one, but like get started and see where we end up . . .

First off, Welker is white, 5'8" and so that by definition can not make him the greatest impact WR . . . . . . he has had the luck to play with two great QBs and have had surrounding talent . . . surely he was a key factor and glad to see him doing well in Denver . . . but when one looks back you see a steady stream of teammates from Moss/Gaffney and crew, to Gronk/Hernandez/Lyodd to the teammates in Denver . . .

Second, your statement sounds nice but one must understand the two teams, players, and philosophies . . . had Welker played in NE with Peyton, and Moss, and Gronk, and Hernandez, and our rushing TDs, and so on and so on . . . his number would not be that different . . . Indeed, his present receptions and yards are not that much off but are even lower, which as something to do with other weapons on Denver . . . yes he has more TDs but he is being thrown to more in the red zone then when he was here in NE . . . he was not the top option for NE . . . and as such his numbers will be lower . . . It never bothered me that he did not garner a lot of TDs here in NE and I never held it against him or that he did "not" produce TDs that some stats blinded people would say against him . . . he help get the team to the red zone and if others are targets, so be it . . . he did his job in my book . . . I do not get too wrapped up in stats as some in the media might get . . .

Lol I was just messing with AM.

[Dustin]

From Welker, to Manning, to Brady, to racism.

I love this forum.

I saw that thing at the state fair a few weeks back. True story.

[amfootball]

No problem...look I know you yearn for the SB days....everything looks rosie remembering good ol Troy Brown...offense/defense...and thats fine but that is like us saying we would take Addai over James or Faulk just because he helped us win a SB. Brown was a great team player but on the field...he would be outplayed every way possible by Welker. Of course just my opinion.

 

I think the premise for this article was definately faulty....can't argue there...but I guess it just gets old the bitter, jilted lover routine.

Did you really just try to compare Faulk/James to Addai and then say Welker was the Faulk/James of the Pats and Brown was like Addai? You are joking, right? Troy Brown had 101 receptions in Brady’s FIRST season as a starter and was flanked by David Patten and Jermaine Wiggins. It was his punt return for a TD and recovery of a blocked FG that helped the Pats beat the Steelers in AFC championship game in 2002. And it was his clutch catch with under half a minute to go that put the Pats in FG range to kick the game winner in the Super Bowl.

 

He is one of the rarest players that was able to play offense, defense and special teams and never questioned his role. Bill Parcells said Troy Brown was one of the best football players he ever drafted. When Brady is asked who the best receivers are he has ever played with he says Brown first then Moss. Brown was the very definition of a play making machine. His strip of the Chargers DB that had intercepted Brady in the divisional round of the playoffs in 2007 is one of the  headiest plays you will ever see by a player that completely turned the momentum of that game.

 

But this is all you reall need to know. Welker has played with all-star casts his entire career. Brown played with cast-offs. And he won three rings.

[Yehoodi]

Lol I was just messing with AM.

 

yes you guys were going at it back and forth :highfive: . . . none the less it is kind of a cool off topic up here in NE on the talk radio, but there are some that are still bringing it up . . . it likely the Amendola-Welker discussion will not go away up here for some time, unless there is a huge impact one way or the other . . . I always get frustrated up here when I hear the talking heads get into the discussion and just talk about this years impact without getting into the impact in years 3 and beyond, as Welker's contracts were only two years in both cities . . .  

 

and it does not help the talking heads up here that amendola has been injured a bit this year . . . I like welker and wish him well and really wished we had him, but I think 3 slots WRs would be too much . . . alas we fans want it all, but with only 53 man roster, we can only get so much . . .

 

I trust BB a great deal, and for the most part he is not wrong . . .time will tell what will happen . . .

[Yehoodi]

Did you really just try to compare Faulk/James to Addai and then say Welker was the Faulk/James of the Pats and Brown was like Addai? You are joking, right? Troy Brown had 101 receptions in Brady’s FIRST season as a starter and was flanked by David Patten and Jermaine Wiggins. It was his punt return for a TD and recovery of a blocked FG that helped the Pats beat the Steelers in AFC championship game in 2002. And it was his clutch catch with under half a minute to go that put the Pats in FG range to kick the game winner in the Super Bowl.

 

He is one of the rarest players that was able to play offense, defense and special teams and never questioned his role. Bill Parcells said Troy Brown was the best football he ever drafted. When Brady is asked who the best receivers are he has ever played with he says Brown first then Moss. Brown was the very definition of a play making machine. His strip of the Chargers DB that had intercepted Brady in the divisional round of the playoffs in 2007 is one of the  headiest plays you will ever see by a player that completely turned the momentum of that game.

 

But this is all you reall need to know. Welker has played with all-star casts his entire career. Brown played with cast-offs. And he won three rings.

 

co-signed . . . I love Troy Brown . . . I got "Bingo" . . .

[Moose Of Woe]

I saw that thing at the state fair a few weeks back. True story.

 

Capybaras are awesome. Giant rodents...they make great pets and are very social fellows.

 

Plus they look so dignified.

[ruksak]

Capybaras are awesome. Giant rodents...they make great pets and are very social fellows.

 

Plus they look so dignified.

But....how do they taste? 

[Moose Of Woe]

But....how do they taste? 

 

If I were to venture a guess, sophisticated.

[dgambill]

Did you really just try to compare Faulk/James to Addai and then say Welker was the Faulk/James of the Pats and Brown was like Addai? You are joking, right? Troy Brown had 101 receptions in Brady’s FIRST season as a starter and was flanked by David Patten and Jermaine Wiggins. It was his punt return for a TD and recovery of a blocked FG that helped the Pats beat the Steelers in AFC championship game in 2002. And it was his clutch catch with under half a minute to go that put the Pats in FG range to kick the game winner in the Super Bowl.

 

He is one of the rarest players that was able to play offense, defense and special teams and never questioned his role. Bill Parcells said Troy Brown was one of the best football players he ever drafted. When Brady is asked who the best receivers are he has ever played with he says Brown first then Moss. Brown was the very definition of a play making machine. His strip of the Chargers DB that had intercepted Brady in the divisional round of the playoffs in 2007 is one of the  headiest plays you will ever see by a player that completely turned the momentum of that game.

 

But this is all you reall need to know. Welker has played with all-star casts his entire career. Brown played with cast-offs. And he won three rings.

Really...I'm not here to argue how great Brown is...but Addai was a 1000yd rusher too and his numbers werent far off James for a season or two...but for his career and in just plain ability they weren't nearly equal nor was he superior because he was a big part of a SB team. Addai played a great role in that SB run...just as you've pointed out about Troy Browns roles....but to say Troy played with castoffs??? Wow...Tom Brady, Bruschi, Seymour, Mcginnist, Harrison, Dillon, Branch, Faulk and on and on....he was part of some great teams. I don't try to minimize Troy Browns career...he has a great legacy there...but to measure everyones career in SB rings is extremely short sighted imo...and one of the reasons why I guess there are so many disagreements on these boards but I'm not getting into that. As an outsider that watches most your games because of how they influence our seeding I always envied Welker and thought he was a huge catalyst for that offense...and I agree in the history of the nfl to support him by his offenses points alone is a flawed arguement I do think he was EXTREMELY impactful...and had he been there this year instead of Amendola...your record would likely not changed a lot...its great now...but the offense would have been much better during the first half because Tom and him had chemistry that was out of this world.....well except for in the SB...but of course had that pass been on target well we all know the result would have been different and Wes would had a SB ring of his own.

[amfootball]

Really...I'm not here to argue how great Brown is...but Addai was a 1000yd rusher too and his numbers werent far off James for a season or two...but for his career and in just plain ability they weren't nearly equal nor was he superior because he was a big part of a SB team. Addai played a great role in that SB run...just as you've pointed out about Troy Browns roles....but to say Troy played with castoffs??? Wow...Tom Brady, Bruschi, Seymour, Mcginnist, Harrison, Dillon, Branch, Faulk and on and on....he was part of some great teams. I don't try to minimize Troy Browns career...he has a great legacy there...but to measure everyones career in SB rings is extremely short sighted imo...and one of the reasons why I guess there are so many disagreements on these boards but I'm not getting into that. As an outsider that watches most your games because of how they influence our seeding I always envied Welker and thought he was a huge catalyst for that offense...and I agree in the history of the nfl to support him by his offenses points alone is a flawed arguement I do think he was EXTREMELY impactful...and had he been there this year instead of Amendola...your record would likely not changed a lot...its great now...but the offense would have been much better during the first half because Tom and him had chemistry that was out of this world.....well except for in the SB...but of course had that pass been on target well we all know the result would have been different and Wes would had a SB ring of his own.

When I said cast-offs, I was referring to the offense. He had Brady but that was before Brady becamse the best QB of his generation. Brown may have been the most instrumental receiver in getting Brady to the upper echeleon.

 

I don't disagree about Welker being an impactful player but as you say he is most remembered for coming up short in the big games with his drop in the SB and his drop last year in the AFCCG, whereas Brown is rememered for making numerous key plays to help the Pats win rings.

[dgambill]

When I said cast-offs, I was referring to the offense. He had Brady but that was before Brady becamse the best QB of his generation. Brown may have been the most instrumental receiver in getting Brady to the upper echeleon.

 

I don't disagree about Welker being an impactful player but as you say he is most remembered for coming up short in the big games with his drop in the SB and his drop last year in the AFCCG, whereas Brown is rememered for making numerous key plays to help the Pats win rings.

That offense was still very good....just not compared to today's spread passing offenses where you can't mug the reciever. Well..outside of Boston most percieve that was a bad pass in the SB(even by a mortal qb...not to mention it came from the touched by God hands of Tom Brady)...not a drop...but another time lol.

[chad72]

He is like a little mouse chasing cheese amongst all those big men...Welker that is . Entertaining to watch nevertheless.

[amfootball]

That offense was still very good....just not compared to today's spread passing offenses where you can't mug the reciever. Well..outside of Boston most percieve that was a bad pass in the SB(even by a mortal qb...not to mention it came from the touched by God hands of Tom Brady)...not a drop...but another time lol.

Not Brady's best pass but Welker had two hands on it and not a defender in sight or the sideline. Every NFL receiver has to make that catch. He is paid to make that catch. The ball was not even coming in fast as Brady put an arc on it over the middle of the defense. Welker also stumbled coming out of his break as it was an off-shoulder throw to keep him from getting plastered by the safety that was in front of him.

 

That one last year was horrific. Hit him right in the chest and bounced off. A sure first down missed on a third and 7 from the Ravens 30 that would have given the Pats the chance to go up 20-7.

[dgambill]

The truth is often "racist". 

 

 I was being somewhat facetious (imagine that?). 

 

It does trouble me to think how far and fast the game would've advanced if people weren't so damned racist back then. 

I'm not going to get further into this sensitive subject but I hardly think over-generalizing white players by saying they could only run 6.5/40yds has any merit...or is even rooted in truth at all. In fact even if it was true the playing field was still even...and it has no meaning on the accomplishments he made. While there was no doubt racism and thats ashame those athletes we didn't get to witness or have the opportunity to compete I don't see why that has to mean Hutson wasn't one of the most impactful players the league has ever seen.

[ruksak]

I'm not going to get further into this sensitive subject but I hardly think over-generalizing white players by saying they could only run 6.5/40yds has any merit...or is even rooted in truth at all. In fact even if it was true the playing field was still even...and it has no meaning on the accomplishments he made. While there was no doubt racism and thats ashame those athletes we didn't get to witness or have the opportunity to compete I don't see why that has to mean Hutson wasn't one of the most impactful players the league has ever seen.

One of the key reasons the league didn't want African Americans in the league was because of exactly what happened when they were allowed in the league. 

 

They dominated and made MANY white players.....obsolete. Many of these legendary white players of old....you would've never heard of if blacks were allowed to play. I'm sorry to inform you, I don't honor accomplishments of racist 'second-best' players of olde. 

[Fx Stryker]

 

Oh yea. Edleman is close to Welker in New England through 9 games. And don't forget he only played 7/9 of games in 2009.

[Gavin]

Big impact pass catcher? Seriously? come on now

[The Old Crow]

Raymond Berry- the original impact catcher.

[Yehoodi]

One of the key reasons the league didn't want African Americans in the league was because of exactly what happened when they were allowed in the league. 

 

They dominated and made MANY white players.....obsolete. Many of these legendary white players of old....you would've never heard of if blacks were allowed to play. I'm sorry to inform you, I don't honor accomplishments of racist 'second-best' players of olde. 

 

I see you have your concerns about the early NFL and I hear yah . . . but you still need to look at the records and even with or without the "stiff" competition from African Americans, records and accomplished can stand on their own, regardless of the racial make up of the sport . . .

 

For instance, I do not think that African Americans have made whites obsolete in the QB, Safety, kickers, punters, linemen, and LB positions . . . there are just as many legendary white players at those positions as African Americans and post admission of the later . . .

 

Indeed, the very person in question, Don Huston, held many records when he retired, two of which were TDs and receptions, his receptions records was not broken until the 60s and his TDs record of 99 was not broken until Steve Largent (another white guy btw) broke it in 1989 (with a 3rd white guy, Don Maynard, close at 88) . . . so as of circa 1989 the top three TD reception leaders where all white . . . but regardless Hutson's record held up for a very long long time . . . it was not until the mid to late 90s that African Americans WRs started to break Huston record, Hudson still at #9 all time . . .  and all of the top 8 played post 5 yard chuck rule and a some have played with HOF top 10 or so QBs . .  .

 

If the African Americans were so dominant at a position, well such that one wished to water down an earlier athlete's accomplishments, how come it took till the 90s before they could break the man's record? 

[dgambill]

I see you have your concerns about the early NFL and I hear yah . . . but you still need to look at the records and even with or without the "stiff" competition from African Americans, records and accomplished can stand on their own, regardless of the racial make up of the sport . . .

 

For instance, I do not think that African Americans have made whites obsolete in the QB, Safety, kickers, punters, linemen, and LB positions . . . there are just as many legendary white players at those positions as African Americans and post admission of the later . . .

 

Indeed, the very person in question, Don Huston, held many records when he retired, two of which were TDs and receptions, his receptions records was not broken until the 60s and his TDs record of 99 was not broken until Steve Largent (another white guy btw) broke it in 1989 (with a 3rd white guy, Don Maynard, close at 88) . . . so as of circa 1989 the top three TD reception leaders where all white . . . but regardless Hutson's record held up for a very long long time . . . it was not until the mid to late 90s that African Americans WRs started to break Huston record, Hudson still at #9 all time . . .  and all of the top 8 played post 5 yard chuck rule and a some have played with HOF top 10 or so QBs . .  .

 

If the African Americans were so dominant at a position, well such that one wished to water down an earlier athlete's accomplishments, how come it took till the 90s before they could break the man's record? 

He is going to say because african americans are guarding/play defense against them currently....there is no arguement against there being racism...but going into this any further would just not go well on a forum. The fact that one of the greatest wrs of all time is white and there are plenty of examples of great white wrs now Welker, Nelson, Decker and a ton more is lost on this guy.