Big Ben says Tom Brady is best QB

[Moose Of Woe]

if people think logically for a moment, if you are using them to track signals of coaches it would be prudent to save them and have a dossier on each coach and/or teams . . . and as you have indicated that the only way the pats would use it was in manner in full force in the endeavor they choose . . . a lack of an archive is a proof that they were not in the business of tracking coaches signals . . . for if they were, and were smart and prudent using all the resources you said they would, than the pats would of had a large archive . . .

 

Fair points. I'd argue we'll never know just how many tapes the Patriots actually had given Goodell's damage control/not being forthcoming and publicly displaying any and all evidence. It was handled very, very shadily.

 

Like I said I don't really want to go back and forth over it. It's been sevenish years since any if it has had any relevance and it just needs to stay dead and buried. Yes it happened, but nothing else will change or come of it.

[AntonMcG]

Overall good post but the only part I take issue with is the bolded. Pats were taping signals not plays - BIG difference. They were trying to ferret out tendencies based on the signals assuming they could even dicipher the signals and that the signals they taped were actual signals and not dummy signals as most teams switched up their signals half to half or quarter to quarter.

 

To then take their SB wins because they were close games and somehow make that justify the advantage they got is just plain silly given the two SBs they lost after spygate were by a combined 7 points and were decided by the other team making a few plays and some luck.

 

I think the real baraometer you have to look at is how the Pats performed AFTER spygate. As you say, they went 18-1 the year that they stopped taping and since then they have averaged more points on offense and have a better winning percentage and made the big game TWICE. I mean at some point the proof is in the pudding. Afterall, like you say the defensive signal taping was supposed to help Brady and the O the most and since then Brady became one of the most profolic QBs in the league and won two league MVPs along with Bill winning two coach of the year awards.

 

 

I thought it was all about winning championships?

[amfootball]

I thought it was all about winning championships?

That's what Jim Irsay says ...

[AntonMcG]

That's what Jim Irsay says ...

 

It's also what you say... just another massive contradiction in the daily ramblings of amfootball

[House]

It's also what you say... just another massive contradiction in the daily ramblings of amfootball

Not to mention Jim Irsay never said it's all about championships. Just that he wished we had won more.

[amfootball]

Not to mention Jim Irsay never said it's all about championships. Just that he wished we had won more.

Slamming down his hand and pointing to his finger with the ring says it is all about the rings ...

[amfootball]

It's also what you say... just another massive contradiction in the daily ramblings of amfootball

I was not talking about rings but the success of the Pats post-spygate which includes two shots at the title and 8 playoff wins ...

[AntonMcG]

I was not talking about rings but the success of the Pats post-spygate which includes two shots at the title and 8 playoff wins ...

 

How can you have success without rings? You said it was all about rings??

 

I'm confused.

[amfootball]

How can you have success without rings? You said it was all about rings??

 

I'm confused.

Never said it was all about the rings. But good try ...

[AntonMcG]

Slamming down his hand and pointing to his finger with the ring says it is all about the rings ...

 

And what a ring it is.

 

They tend to get rusty when they get over 10 years old.

[amfootball]

And what a ring it is.

 

They tend to get rusty when they get over 10 years old.

Jim's must be getting there too at 7 years old ... ;)

[AntonMcG]

Never said it was all about the rings. But good try ...

 

lol, you have, many times.

[GoPats]

I thought it was all about winning championships?

 

I know you're playing with AM because you're too intelligent to make a statement like this and mean it.  ;)

[Yehoodi]

How can you have success without rings? You said it was all about rings??

 

I'm confused.

 

Hey Anton, I do know that you like go back and forth with amfootball, which is fun to watch . . . and am not too sure if you are jesting or serious or somewhere in between with this go around . . . amfootball is not being inconsistent as much as she is addressing an issue about the perception of the pats not being successful post spygate and thus by deduction their pre spygate success is related to the taping . . .

 

I think if we all step back for a moment and look at what the pats critics are trying to say, or give the impression, with their comments is that they have not done anything post spygate . . . which would be true had they had a handful of 2009 10-6 seasons after spygate and were one and done many times in the playoffs and missed a few playoffs .  . .  in which case one could make the argument that there was a drop off of performance post spygate . . .

 

To the contrary there has not be a drop off just more along the lines of a bounce or two not go their way (unlike 2009 where we were not that great all year and were smoked in the playoffs, a bounce or two aint gonna matter) . . . we had bounce or two go our way in our 2001 and 2003 runs but not go our way in the 2007 and 2011 runs . . . if you flip those 4-6 bounces around we have two one and dones in 2001 and 2003, no "championship defense" to help brady, no real Adam V legacy and two wins in 2007 (and a 19-0 btw) and 2011 where the defense was the weaker relation . . . a few bounce does not change one's body of work . . . all you can ask is to get yourself in position to win and hope lady luck shines on you . . .and we did that in 2001, 03, 07 and 11 . . . so we have be consistent in that we gotten near the top on occasions before and after spygate . . .

 

so when you are looking at "success" as it is insinuated by the comments, there has not been a drop off to being a 10-6 out of or one and done in the playoffs each year . . . this what she is stating . . . for those people who try to draw a conclusion based on a few bounces and say you have not had "success" they then are missing the point . . . people are trying to make a point that could possible be proven if we had gone 10-6, but that is not the reality of the situation . . . so people can not make that comment as it is related to the spygate influence . . .

 

and yes we have mentioned that ring are a mark of success, true, but what we are address is a different type of success and that it getting your team to the gate of the promise land, and this has not changed . . .

[Kyle]

1. Defensive calls are not signaled in anymore. Defensive players started having radios put in their helmets (like QBs) a few years ago. I'm sure teams still have signals for emergency situations (if the audio fails, injuries in-game, etc), but it would be a somewhat obsolete practice today.

 

2. The Patriots never had a video of the Rams' walk-through. That's speaks right to what I'm saying about people having opinions without actually knowing facts. The story was proven to be baseless speculation and the Boston Herald printed a major retraction. 

 

3. Spygate happened in 2007. The Patriots offense is struggling right now, but it's 2013. I don't know if you just started watching football, but their offense was pretty good from 2007-2012. If you're equating their recent struggles to not having video of other teams' signals, your argument is weak, because it doesn't explain why they had a top offense for the 6 years in between Spygate and this season.

1. OK

 

2. That is YOUR OPINION and you do not know the facts either.  One person says yes, another says no,  and you choose to believe no.  that does not make it a fact.  innocent until proven guilty i guess... you know, like OJ Simpson.

 

3.  People found out they were cheating in '07.  Who knows how long they had been cheating and studying film they illegally had.  Brady knew the defensive tendencies until enough players, coaches, and philosophies changed.  Until the entire D scheme changed, the Pats were still benefiting from the videos they had.  Now that defenses have changed enough, we see the real Tom Brady.  He is a above average QB, just not on Peyton's level ;)

[The Old Crow]

I'm glad no one brought up the Deer Antler Spray -gate episode. Ray gained back 10 football years with his youth tonic. I think Granny mixed it up for him back at the cement pond !

[Yehoodi]

Not to mention Jim Irsay never said it's all about championships. Just that he wished we had won more.

 

to the contrary he seem to me to be lamenting about the fact that we "only got one of these" {point to the finger on his ring}, I have some things I want to say about his speech but not have had the time to set it out here, but bottom line I think Irsay was trying to deal with the delicate situation, and perhaps no win situation, of letting go a HOFer, bringing in a new kid, perhaps changing the philopshy of the team, anticipating a few rings, and trying to lay a ground work that whatever the success is of Manning and Luck is for there respective teams, that past or future success is not really the fault or credit of a single player . . .  

 

but with the above said, I got the impression that given the opportunities to get to the gates of the promise land, he wished his team was able to open the gate more than once, and if moving forward they have a similar amount of opportunities that they will be able to open the gate more than just one time . . . so to this extent championships are important moving forward for Isray . . .

[Yehoodi]

I'm glad no one brought up the Deer Antler Spray -gate episode. Ray gained back 10 football years with his youth tonic. I think Granny mixed it up for him back at the cement pond !

 

omg, a Beverly Hillbillies comment, gotta love it . . .

[GoPats]

1. OK

 

2. That is YOUR OPINION and you do not know the facts either.  One person says yes, another says no,  and you choose to believe no.  that does not make it a fact.  innocent until proven guilty i guess... you know, like OJ Simpson.

 

3.  People found out they were cheating in '07.  Who knows how long they had been cheating and studying film they illegally had.  Brady knew the defensive tendencies until enough players, coaches, and philosophies changed.  Until the entire D scheme changed, the Pats were still benefiting from the videos they had.  Now that defenses have changed enough, we see the real Tom Brady.  He is a above average QB, just not on Peyton's level ;)

 

Aw, buddy... you may want to pick up a dictionary and look up the word "opinion." The word you're thinking of is "fact."

 

I'll use it in context for you for comprehension purposes:

 

"It is a fact that there has never been any evidence to suggest that the Patriots had a tape of the Rams' walk-through prior to Super Bowl 36." 

 

;)

 

And yeah, you're absolutely right, that Brady is just a mediocre QB. If he only had a sub-.500 postseason record... I can dream, right? 

[AntonMcG]

to the contrary he seem to me to be lamenting about the fact that we "only got one of these" {point to the finger on his ring}, I have some things I want to say about his speech but not have had the time to set it out here, but bottom line I think Irsay was trying to deal with the delicate situation, and perhaps no win situation, of letting go a HOFer, bringing in a new kid, perhaps changing the philopshy of the team, anticipating a few rings, and trying to lay a ground work that whatever the success is of Manning and Luck is for there respective teams, that past or future success is not really the fault or credit of a single player . . .  

 

but with the above said, I got the impression that given the opportunities to get to the gates of the promise land, he wished his team was able to open the gate more than once, and if moving forward they have a similar amount of opportunities that they will be able to open the gate more than just one time . . . so to this extent championships are important moving forward for Isray . . .

 

Unfortunately the majority of people cannot grasp this concept.

[-JJ-]

3.  People found out they were cheating in '07.  Who knows how long they had been cheating and studying film they illegally had.  Brady knew the defensive tendencies until enough players, coaches, and philosophies changed.  Until the entire D scheme changed, the Pats were still benefiting from the videos they had.  Now that defenses have changed enough, we see the real Tom Brady.  He is a above average QB, just not on Peyton's level ;)

Wait a sec here- I don't think half of you get what the deal is. Defensive schemes? you can see that in game films that all teams get.

It's defensive SIGNALS that were taped. These are stolen everyday but by other old fashioned means- ie pencil and paper, naked eye thru binocs or whatever. Obviously video is more "convenient". Teams also had changed their signals from week to week. So what you were looking for is tendencies in the offseason.

Many rules have been broken in the past (including on the field) and penalties/fines accessed.

[Kyle]

Aw, buddy... you may want to pick up a dictionary and look up the word "opinion." The word you're thinking of is "fact."

 

I'll use it in context for you for comprehension purposes:

 

"It is a fact that there has never been any evidence to suggest that the Patriots had a tape of the Rams' walk-through prior to Super Bowl 36." 

 

;)

 

And yeah, you're absolutely right, that Brady is just a mediocre QB. If he only had a sub-.500 postseason record... I can dream, right? 

 

1.  facts can be proven.   Here is an example:  "The Colts standard uniform helmet is white."  Now I will prove it.

 

 

Now here is an opinion.  "The Patriots video taped the rams walk through before the superbowl."  That is not a fact, but neither is saying they didn't.  

 

 

2. I never called Brady mediocre so it is just stupid that you replied as if I did.  I said he is above average.  Take away the super bowls during spy gate and he is a Dan Marino.  Is Dan Marino mediocre??  no, but he absolutely is not the greatest QB of all time and that is what some consider Brady BECAUSE of the super bowls he won while cheating

[Kyle]

Wait a sec here- I don't think half of you get what the deal is. Defensive schemes? you can see that in game films that all teams get.

It's defensive SIGNALS that were taped. These are stolen everyday but by other old fashioned means- ie pencil and paper, naked eye thru binocs or whatever. Obviously video is more "convenient". Teams also had changed their signals from week to week. So what you were looking for is tendencies in the offseason.

Many rules have been broken in the past (including on the field) and penalties/fines accessed.

oh i get it.  I meant the D scheme had to change so he no longer understood the signals.   and yes, there are other ways to steal signals and figure out a D, so why did they take the easy road and cheat rather than put in the work?

[GoPats]

1.  facts can be proven.   Here is an example:  "The Colts standard uniform helmet is white."  Now I will prove it.

 

 

Now here is an opinion.  "The Patriots video taped the rams walk through before the superbowl."  That is not a fact, but neither is saying they didn't.  

 

 

2. I never called Brady mediocre so it is just stupid that you replied as if I did.  I said he is above average.  Take away the super bowls during spy gate and he is a Dan Marino.  Is Dan Marino mediocre??  no, but he absolutely is not the greatest QB of all time and that is what some consider Brady BECAUSE of the super bowls he won while cheating

 

Lordy-Lordy you are a special one, aren't you? 

 

Honest question for you. Do you actually know any of the history associated with this? Or did you hear, six years ago, someone say, "The Patriots taped the Rams' walk-through" and it just got imprinted on your brain as fact?

 

Do you also know what it takes, from a libel standpoint, for a major metropolitan newspaper to print a front-page retraction? 

 

The original story was printed in the Boston Herald with an anonymous source. The source said that former Pats employee Matt Walsh was instructed to tape the walk-through. But Walsh himself told Goodell that was false:

 

In New York, where Walsh and Goodell met at 7:30 a.m. and league officials later publicly showed footage from Walsh's tapes, Goodell said a key purpose in speaking with Walsh was to learn more about the alleged filming of the Rams' walkthrough.

 

"We were able to verify that there was no Rams walkthrough tape," Goodell said. "No one asked him to tape the walkthrough. He's not aware of anybody else who may have taped the walkthrough. He had not seen such a tape. He does not know of anybody who says there is a tape."

 

The Herald said today that while it based its Feb. 2 report on sources it believed to be credible, "we now know that this report was false, and that no tape of the walkthrough ever existed." The paper said it never possessed or viewed a tape of the walkthrough or spoke to anyone who had.

 

 

Full article: http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2008/05/14/patriots_never_taped_walkthrough_goodell_finds/?page=full

[amfootball]

Lordy-Lordy you are a special one, aren't you? 

 

Honest question for you. Do you actually know any of the history associated with this? Or did you hear, six years ago, someone say, "The Patriots taped the Rams' walk-through" and it just got imprinted on your brain as fact?

 

Do you also know what it takes, from a libel standpoint, for a major metropolitan newspaper to print a front-page retraction? 

 

The original story was printed in the Boston Herald with an anonymous source. The source said that former Pats employee Matt Walsh was instructed to tape the walk-through. But Walsh himself told Goodell that was false:

 

In New York, where Walsh and Goodell met at 7:30 a.m. and league officials later publicly showed footage from Walsh's tapes, Goodell said a key purpose in speaking with Walsh was to learn more about the alleged filming of the Rams' walkthrough.

 

"We were able to verify that there was no Rams walkthrough tape," Goodell said. "No one asked him to tape the walkthrough. He's not aware of anybody else who may have taped the walkthrough. He had not seen such a tape. He does not know of anybody who says there is a tape."

 

The Herald said today that while it based its Feb. 2 report on sources it believed to be credible, "we now know that this report was false, and that no tape of the walkthrough ever existed." The paper said it never possessed or viewed a tape of the walkthrough or spoke to anyone who had.

 

 

Full article: http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2008/05/14/patriots_never_taped_walkthrough_goodell_finds/?page=full

The Herald is a piece of trash. Always was and always will be.

 

How about those Red Sox!! Man, was that awesome or what!? Are you going to the parade tomorrow? I am going to try to get there for some of it. Duck Boats rock!

[Kyle]

Lordy-Lordy you are a special one, aren't you? 

 

Honest question for you. Do you actually know any of the history associated with this? Or did you hear, six years ago, someone say, "The Patriots taped the Rams' walk-through" and it just got imprinted on your brain as fact?

 

Do you also know what it takes, from a libel standpoint, for a major metropolitan newspaper to print a front-page retraction? 

 

The original story was printed in the Boston Herald with an anonymous source. The source said that former Pats employee Matt Walsh was instructed to tape the walk-through. But Walsh himself told Goodell that was false:

 

In New York, where Walsh and Goodell met at 7:30 a.m. and league officials later publicly showed footage from Walsh's tapes, Goodell said a key purpose in speaking with Walsh was to learn more about the alleged filming of the Rams' walkthrough.

 

"We were able to verify that there was no Rams walkthrough tape," Goodell said. "No one asked him to tape the walkthrough. He's not aware of anybody else who may have taped the walkthrough. He had not seen such a tape. He does not know of anybody who says there is a tape."

 

The Herald said today that while it based its Feb. 2 report on sources it believed to be credible, "we now know that this report was false, and that no tape of the walkthrough ever existed." The paper said it never possessed or viewed a tape of the walkthrough or spoke to anyone who had.

 

 

Full article: http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2008/05/14/patriots_never_taped_walkthrough_goodell_finds/?page=full

oh ok.  goodell asked him and he said he didnt do it.  LOL

 

 

lets pretend there was no taped walkthough.  my main point stands that they cheated other ways and were found to be guilty.  the cheating occurred over the time period of Brady's best years.  so it wasnt something that guaranteed a win but helped.  how many times have you heard football is a game of inches?  1 play can change a whole game.  They knowingly did something against the rules, won superbowls, then got caught, and the nfl tried its hardest to bury it as quick as possible.  There should be an * next to all their wins and records like Barry Bonds.

[Kyle]

The Herald is a piece of trash. Always was and always will be.

 

How about those Red Sox!! Man, was that awesome or what!? Are you going to the parade tomorrow? I am going to try to get there for some of it. Duck Boats rock!

glad they won.  Ortiz is the man.

[amfootball]

glad they won.  Ortiz is the man.

Yes, he is. The official Mr. October right alongside Reggie.

 

He is the first non-Yankee in decades to win three championships with the same team. Makes my 80 year old dad very, very happy.   

[Kyle]

Yes, he is. The official Mr. October right alongside Reggie.

 

He is the first non-Yankee in decades to win three championships with the same team. Makes my 80 year old dad very, very happy.   

that is truly awesome.  i bet your dad was freakin pumped

[amfootball]

that is truly awesome.  i bet your dad was freakin pumped

Yeah. He is a dream state these days. All of those years of heart breaking losses and now the Sox have morphed into the Yankees of this century. Honestly, I don't know what is going on here in this town but every team seems to have become a champion this century. It has been a great time to be in Boston. I can't believe we have another parade tomorrow. Our mayor just adds the planning to his calendar every year now. lol.

[The Old Crow]

omg, a Beverly Hillbillies comment, gotta love it . . .

 

Next to the NFL Network, you gotta love ME-TV with all those good old shows. 

[The Old Crow]

The Herald is a piece of trash. Always was and always will be.

 

How about those Red Sox!! Man, was that awesome or what!? Are you going to the parade tomorrow? I am going to try to get there for some of it. Duck Boats rock!

 

It was a good win for the Red Sox, but anytime the Yankees or Red Sox win, Baltimore is draped in black. Tell Ortiz he owes us one thousand dollars for breaking the bullpen phone in the dug out in Baltimore ! LOL

[Kyle]

It was a good win for the Red Sox, but anytime the Yankees or Red Sox win, Baltimore is draped in black. Tell Ortiz he owes us one thousand dollars for breaking the bullpen phone in the dug out in Baltimore ! LOL

lol

[Kyle]

i liked seeing Ryan Dempster (came to Boston from the Cubs) got a world series win.  He stayed until after 3AM throwing batting practice to his kids and random people lol.  

[-JJ-]

oh i get it.  I meant the D scheme had to change so he no longer understood the signals.   and yes, there are other ways to steal signals and figure out a D, so why did they take the easy road and cheat rather than put in the work?

I would guess more convenient- easier.

 

So the camera would catch the hand signals and then pan to the scoreboard to get down and distance. So that would be easier to look at later on than the other methods.

 

But they change the signals each game so what you're getting are tendencies. Unless you mean to use in the game being played which was the point how Bill read the rule.  Not to mention that would take some serious military technology and the camera was a standard video camera.

[Kyle]

I would guess more convenient- easier.

 

So the camera would catch the hand signals and then pan to the scoreboard to get down and distance. So that would be easier to look at later on than the other methods.

 

But they change the signals each game so what you're getting are tendencies. Unless you mean to use in the game being played which was the point how Bill read the rule.  Not to mention that would take some serious military technology and the camera was a standard video camera.

 

word it however you want to.  There is a rule, they broke the rule, they gained an advantage from it.  Therefore, they cheated.

[GoPats]

The Herald is a piece of trash. Always was and always will be.

 

How about those Red Sox!! Man, was that awesome or what!? Are you going to the parade tomorrow? I am going to try to get there for some of it. Duck Boats rock!

 

Just amazing... I didn't know what to do with myself last night because I didn't have a five-hour baseball game to watch, lol...

 

I live out north of Worcester so I'll probably skip the duck boats this time. (I also have two kids who weren't around back in '07!) I did get to go in '04 and went to all three of the Pats' parades, as well as the B's two years ago. Always a good time.

 

These are the glory days eh? We'll be telling our kids about it. Eight championships in 12 years, pretty unreal. 

 

oh ok.  goodell asked him and he said he didnt do it.  LOL

 

 

lets pretend there was no taped walkthough.  my main point stands that they cheated other ways and were found to be guilty.  the cheating occurred over the time period of Brady's best years.  so it wasnt something that guaranteed a win but helped.  how many times have you heard football is a game of inches?  1 play can change a whole game.  They knowingly did something against the rules, won superbowls, then got caught, and the nfl tried its hardest to bury it as quick as possible.  There should be an * next to all their wins and records like Barry Bonds.

 

I hear ya, and I respect opinions that differ from mine so long as the person who has them is informed. If you say you are, I believe you, and do not begrudge you at all. I wasn't honestly trying to be a wise guy in this thread, I just hear a lot of misinformation out there. You're free to think whatever you'd like to think, of course... I can't help it if you're wrong. (J/K, J/K... peace and love man, peace and love!) 

 

;)

[GoPats]

It was a good win for the Red Sox, but anytime the Yankees or Red Sox win, Baltimore is draped in black. Tell Ortiz he owes us one thousand dollars for breaking the bullpen phone in the dug out in Baltimore ! LOL

 

With his money he should have just left the cash in the dugout when the Sox left town! LOL... 

[amfootball]

word it however you want to.  There is a rule, they broke the rule, they gained an advantage from it.  Therefore, they cheated.

No one is arguing they broke a rule but what the value was of the advantage gained. That's it.

 

And you seem to forget that the memo emphasizing the rule that was sent to ALL 32 teams becaue the league believed it was a widespread issue.

[amfootball]

Just amazing... I didn't know what to do with myself last night because I didn't have a five-hour baseball game to watch, lol...

 

I live out north of Worcester so I'll probably skip the duck boats this time. (I also have two kids who weren't around back in '07!) I did get to go in '04 and went to all three of the Pats' parades, as well as the B's two years ago. Always a good time.

 

These are the glory days eh? We'll be telling our kids about it. Eight championships in 12 years, pretty unreal. 

 

 

I hear ya, and I respect opinions that differ from mine so long as the person who has them is informed. If you say you are, I believe you, and do not begrudge you at all. I wasn't honestly trying to be a wise guy in this thread, I just hear a lot of misinformation out there. You're free to think whatever you'd like to think, of course... I can't help it if you're wrong. (J/K, J/K... peace and love man, peace and love!) 

 

;)

I went to the first two Pats parades but have not made the others. I have three kids under 10 so I am home bound tomorrow in the morning for soccer which is the new football. lol. I am hoping to be able to go for some of it.

 

I know what you mean. Our kids are so spoiled. I have a Super Bowl party every year and my eight year now asks when the Pats are playing in the Super Bowl. She just assumes they will be there because they have been there almost every year of her life. Pretty surreal.

 

My brother called me the other night and said that if the Sox win game 6 the real MVP should be Tom Brady. He has been saying for years that Brady is the one that brought winning to this city and he deserves the credit for all the championships. A bit over the top even for someone like me but he does make me laugh. Brady did begin it all.