RG way ahead of schedule for return

[T Y Goodbye]

Because most teams don't have Hampton, McMichael, Dent, Marshall, Wilson, Singletary, Fincik, Bell, Duerson, , .....

 

That D was stacked.     NO scheme is going to succeed without talented players executing it.     The Ravens have basically used the old Bear philosophy ....      but they have had some really good personnel.

 

I'm sure that somewhere in the 38 years since 1985 that some team would draft personnel to fit that scheme if it was still relevant,  but it became obsolete. I'm not knocking the Bears D..I'm just saying that 4-6 defense was figured out and is no longer used because of that. The Ravens don't even use anything resembling a 4-6, they just have great personnel.

[John Dee]

sigh....     ok...     

 

 

 

I'm sure that somewhere in the 38 years since 1985 that some team would draft personnel to fit that scheme if it was still relevant,  but it became obsolete. I'm not knocking the Bears D..I'm just saying that 4-6 defense was figured out and is no longer used because of that. The Ravens don't even use anything resembling a 4-6, they just have great personnel.

[Jules]

Who is RG?

 

Ryan Gosling!!!

 

He must have a new movie out soon and it is ahead of schedule!

[Jules]

RG=Ryan Grigson

 

[T Y Goodbye]

Just for clarification...

 

The 46 defense, made popular by
defensive co-ordinator, Buddy Ryan, and the Chicago Bears, back in the
early 1980's. The Bears had a formidable defense, one of the best
defenses ever, with DE Richard Dent, DT William Perry, MLB Mike
Singletary, to name just a few. The 46 defense is not used very often
anymore, except for some variations, mainly because of it's weaknesses
against the passing game
which is much more prolific today then in the 1980's. Essentially, a 46
defense rolls the weak and strong linebackers at or near the line to
cover up the tight-end, while the strong safety becomes pretty much like
a linebacker, lining up over the left, defensive end, beside the middle
linebacker.

[Vance]

I admit it, I have two accounts on this forum. The other is shecolt.

 

 

[Jules]

I admit it, I have two accounts on this forum. The other is shecolt.

 

 

 

Gave you a like since I like the gif.

[Vance]

Gave you a like since I like the gif.

 

Gave you a like since I like the gif too. Even though I'm too cool for likes.

 

 

And the 46 D (not 4-6, that's a misnomer) was great because the offenses of the day relied heavily on long, drawn out routes that were susceptible to a pressure-heavy defense. Along came the West Coast offense to counter the 46, and it became obsolete. 

 

It's well known that the Ryan brothers still sometimes used this defense, however. It's why I think the Colts got pummeled by the Jets during the regular season last year. Arians offense is not a WC offense.

[John Dee]

Just for clarification...

 

The 46 defense, made popular by

defensive co-ordinator, Buddy Ryan, and the Chicago Bears, back in the

early 1980's. The Bears had a formidable defense, one of the best

defenses ever, with DE Richard Dent, DT William Perry, MLB Mike

Singletary, to name just a few. The 46 defense is not used very often

anymore, except for some variations, mainly because of it's weaknesses

against the passing game

which is much more prolific today then in the 1980's. Essentially, a 46

defense rolls the weak and strong linebackers at or near the line to

cover up the tight-end, while the strong safety becomes pretty much like

a linebacker, lining up over the left, defensive end, beside the middle

linebacker.

The next time Indy lines up 8 defenders on the LOS pre snap ......      think Buddy Ryan... 

[John Dee]

I admit it, I have two accounts on this forum. The other is shecolt.

 

 

Why do I somehow believe that ....   ???

[amfootball]

In the NFL you can't hit a QB when he doesn't have the ball unless he sells the fake.  If you insist on blowing the QB up every time he will cease to do so and will just hand it off.  What happens then?  Well, for one thing, Alfred Morris is going to get a TON of yardage because your DE won't be playing contain on the play (he will be playing contain on the QB, who is out of the play).  The refs will also look at the play differently than they would if Griffin took off at a sprint and pretended to be a runner and contact will be frowned upon and likely penalized (not so under the replacement refs, as we saw, but holds true with regular officials).

 

If you tell a LB to hit the QB and a DE to play contain on Griffin or vice versa what then happens on a similarly constructed play action pass?  You've got a large area of space vacated by the LB.

 

It's not that the plays are indefensible but when the execution of the mix of plays is very high and the playcalling is unpredictable you can't take that simplistic an approach to it.

I love this, great football analysis here going on besides the texan jabs. Watch the Pats/Denver playoff game from two seasons ago. The Pats basically hit Tebow on every play whether he had the ball or not. What it did is make him hesitant every time he went to run the option. They also flanked the pitch man so he had to hesitate with his decision. It was brilliant to watch. The Pats had something like 10 plays stopped behind the line of scrimmage as a result. While I agree with you that great execution always beats defense, there is also something to be said for getting into the mind of the QB. I think that is what defenses will try to employ. Let's face it other than Roethlisberger, no QB wants to get hit and get hit often. Throws their game off. I believe Tebow emerged from that playoff game with broken ribs.

[BrentMc11]

In the NFL you can't hit a QB when he doesn't have the ball unless he sells the fake.  If you insist on blowing the QB up every time he will cease to do so and will just hand it off.  What happens then?  Well, for one thing, Alfred Morris is going to get a TON of yardage because your DE won't be playing contain on the play (he will be playing contain on the QB, who is out of the play).  The refs will also look at the play differently than they would if Griffin took off at a sprint and pretended to be a runner and contact will be frowned upon and likely penalized (not so under the replacement refs, as we saw, but holds true with regular officials).

 

If you tell a LB to hit the QB and a DE to play contain on Griffin or vice versa what then happens on a similarly constructed play action pass?  You've got a large area of space vacated by the LB.

 

It's not that the plays are indefensible but when the execution of the mix of plays is very high and the playcalling is unpredictable you can't take that simplistic an approach to it.

I agree again.  That is why these are option offenses requiring a 'read.'  Defense has to read as well.  The offense has more options.  The defense needs to stay 'home.'

 

In defensive theory, the defense should have someone assigned to contain ALL options.  I guess I should just say you contain and 'try' to hit the guy with the ball.  There were some fakes by RG3 as well as Kaep that were flat out magical....If I assign a guyt to the QB...his job is to hit him legally....yet let him know he has been hit.

 

I want to be clear I am not arguing this point.  This is defense as it should be played against options.  I do insist on hitting the QB...especially if he is the fakes...most dangerous player on the field like RG3, Kaep, and even Wilson.  I would hit Luck as hard as I could too on a 'boot' or designed roll out.  

[BrentMc11]

I love this, great football analysis here going on besides the texan jabs. Watch the Pats/Denver playoff game from two seasons ago. The Pats basically hit Tebow on every play whether he had the ball or not. What it did is make him hesitant every time he went to run the option. They also flanked the pitch man so he had to hesitate with his decision. It was brilliant to watch. The Pats had something like 10 plays stopped behind the line of scrimmage as a result. While I agree with you that great execution always beats defense, there is also something to be said for getting into the mind of the QB. I think that is what defenses will try to employ. Let's face it other than Roethlisberger, no QB wants to get hit and get hit often. Throws their game off. I believe Tebow emerged from that playoff game with broken ribs.

That has been my point in this entire thread, and my object was not to break anybodies ribs....make them know they are not running the ball my way.  A DE or OLB has to have that mentality or there will be huge plays.  Insert Green Bay video here.

 

I agree RGIII makes valid analysis. 

[Nadine]

A personal augment was removed from this thread

Please, no further problems with this back and forth off topic posting ....... shots at each other

[Qwiz]

I love this, great football analysis here going on besides the texan jabs. Watch the Pats/Denver playoff game from two seasons ago. The Pats basically hit Tebow on every play whether he had the ball or not. What it did is make him hesitant every time he went to run the option. They also flanked the pitch man so he had to hesitate with his decision. It was brilliant to watch. The Pats had something like 10 plays stopped behind the line of scrimmage as a result. While I agree with you that great execution always beats defense, there is also something to be said for getting into the mind of the QB. I think that is what defenses will try to employ. Let's face it other than Roethlisberger, no QB wants to get hit and get hit often. Throws their game off. I believe Tebow emerged from that playoff game with broken ribs.

Dude, that situation is way different. Everyone at that point knew that Tebow's throwing was horrible and inaccurate. They were not afraid to let him pass, and they knew that he was going to be running more often than not. That is not the case with guys like Wilson or Griffin. They can kill you with the deep ball (Griffin is particularly good at that), freeze the DEs with the handoff, and either let the stud RB do their work or keep it and bounce to the outside themselves. There are so many different possibilities that this type of offense is going to give defenders headaches for years to come. As myself and RGIII have mentioned numerous times before, just blowing up the quarterback every play isn't going to help anyone win a game. They'll be more likely to lose money and or players doing stuff like that. And I highly doubt that Roethlisberger wants to get hit often lol. He just had a life threatening injury last season...the last thing he wants is to get hammered.

[BrentMc11]

Dude, that situation is way different. Everyone at that point knew that Tebow's throwing was horrible and inaccurate. They were not afraid to let him pass, and they knew that he was going to be running more often than not. That is not the case with guys like Wilson or Griffin. They can kill you with the deep ball (Griffin is particularly good at that), freeze the DEs with the handoff, and either let the stud RB do their work or keep it and bounce to the outside themselves. There are so many different possibilities that this type of offense is going to give defenders headaches for years to come. As myself and RGIII have mentioned numerous times before, just blowing up the quarterback every play isn't going to help anyone win a game. They'll be more likely to lose money and or players doing stuff like that. And I highly doubt that Roethlisberger wants to get hit often lol. He just had a life threatening injury last season...the last thing he wants is to get hammered.

I would hit him even harder if he COULD throw!!!  Good morning Quiz!!    

[Qwiz]

I would hit him even harder if he COULD throw!!!  Good morning Quiz!!  

Lol good morning my persistent friend.

[jvan1973]

Dude, that situation is way different. Everyone at that point knew that Tebow's throwing was horrible and inaccurate. They were not afraid to let him pass, and they knew that he was going to be running more often than not. That is not the case with guys like Wilson or Griffin. They can kill you with the deep ball (Griffin is particularly good at that), freeze the DEs with the handoff, and either let the stud RB do their work or keep it and bounce to the outside themselves. There are so many different possibilities that this type of offense is going to give defenders headaches for years to come. As myself and RGIII have mentioned numerous times before, just blowing up the quarterback every play isn't going to help anyone win a game. They'll be more likely to lose money and or players doing stuff like that. And I highly doubt that Roethlisberger wants to get hit often lol. He just had a life threatening injury last season...the last thing he wants is to get hammered.

Did you watch the super bowl? Kapernick was getting blasted everyone he handed the ball off. That will be the norm for these guys from now on

[Qwiz]

Did you watch the super bowl? Kapernick was getting blasted everyone he handed the ball off. That will be the norm for these guys from now on

Yes I watched the Super Bowl, but I don't remember Kaep getting hit on every single handoff. I also doubt that it happened because a fiery guy like Harbaugh isn't going to stand by quietly and let murder happen and neither would that SF offensive line. There would have been flags, fights, arguments all sorts of those kind of things. I don't recall seeing Ndamukong Suh playing in the Super Bowl. And even if D coordinators do decide to go Gregg Williams then you can bet your hat that there will be new rules made for the QBs.  

[BrentMc11]

I love the persistent comment....I know I am a pain on this topic because I will not change my stance.  All I am advocating is an aggressive 'read' defense against the 'read offenses.'

 

I still like your comment yesterday...had to look back...

 

Good. I like seeing unstoppable forces meet with immovable objects.    I had to laugh when you said/persistent friend....good stuff.

[Qwiz]

I love the persistent comment....I know I am a pain on this topic because I will not change my stance.  All I am advocating is an aggressive 'read' defense against the 'read offenses.'

 

I still like your comment yesterday...had to look back...

 

Good. I like seeing unstoppable forces meet with immovable objects.    I had to laugh when you said/persistent friend....good stuff.

No worries, friend. You're not being a pain or anything. I like it when I can have solid debates with my friends. There are way less insults and irrational disagreements going on when you get to debate with someone you usually agree with.

[BrentMc11]

Did you watch the super bowl? Kapernick was getting blasted everyone he handed the ball off. That will be the norm for these guys from now on

I personally would have like to see a young Ray Lewis and an in shape Suggs...with a dose of Ngata get more hits on him....

 

Ngata did get the 15 yard penalty....'a little message I believe from the lil fella.

[BrentMc11]

No worries, friend. You're not being a pain or anything. I like it when I can have solid debates with my friends. There are way less insults and irrational disagreements going on when you get to debate with someone you usually agree with.

It is fun.  I am just an advocate of not letting a QB beat you.  If he beats me, it is not going to be because he runs.  If he wants to run or 'fake the run' he is going to get the helmet and pads to him.  Stay home...contain...and hit. 

 

I just ran out of likes....did not know I gave that many yesterday  

[Qwiz]

It is fun.  I am just an advocate of not letting a QB beat you.  If he beats me, it is not going to be because he runs.  If he wants to run or 'fake the run' he is going to get the helmet and pads to him.  Stay home...contain...and hit. 

 

I just ran out of likes....did not know I gave that many yesterday  

Yep, but this new brand of QBs specialize in beating you in both ways...we'll see how their careers go, but if this past season was a sign of things to come, well..... ;)

[smittywerb]

Good for RG3!!!  He will need that knee as defenses continue to hit him.....Good luck!!  Boy do I wish I was an NFL DC....

Greg Williams's that you? Lol

[BrentMc11]

Yep, but this new brand of QBs specialize in beating you in both ways...we'll see how their careers go, but if this past season was a sign of things to come, well..... ;)

That is why I am on a mission to stop them....and so are the NFL defenses....no....not gonna happen overnight.  I love this subject...not gonna kid anyone

[jvan1973]

Yes I watched the Super Bowl, but I don't remember Kaep getting hit on every single handoff. I also doubt that it happened because a fiery guy like Harbaugh isn't going to stand by quietly and let murder happen and neither would that SF offensive line. There would have been flags, fights, arguments all sorts of those kind of things. I don't recall seeing Ndamukong Suh playing in the Super Bowl. And even if D coordinators do decide to go Gregg Williams then you can bet your hat that there will be new rules made for the QBs.

Watch it again. When they tried the zone read kap got blasted every time.

[BrentMc11]

Greg Williams's that you? Lol

Read on...

 

No just wittle ole me....      

[Qwiz]

Watch it again. When they tried the zone read kap got blasted every time.

I'll try to see if I recorded it if not I'll have to wait till they start doing replays. My point still stands regardless. When we see an increase in QBs getting hit...we will see an increase in penalties. It's just nature.

[Hans Moleman]

That's great news.

 

That tornado you'll hear about is Mike Shanahan's sigh of relief, because I would not want to be him next year if RGIII were behind schedule and the Skins struggled.

[jvan1973]

I'll try to see if I recorded it if not I'll have to wait till they start doing replays. My point still stands regardless. When we see an increase in QBs getting hit...we will see an increase in penalties. It's just nature.

There isn't a penalty for hitting a rb if the ball is faked to him. There shouldn't be a penalty if thepremise of the play is to deceive the defense

[Qwiz]

There isn't a penalty for hitting a rb if the ball is faked to him. There shouldn't be a penalty if thepremise of the play is to deceive the defense

The premise of every play is to deceive the defense. No, there is no penalty for hitting a RB but that is what the defense is supposed to do. Hitting the quarterback, the one player who is protected the most in this sport, is another story, especially when said quarterback obviously does not have the ball and is getting whacked anyway.

[dw49]

Not a lot of substance there.  The one thing I've heard throughout this process is that the biggest challenge is holding Griffin back a little in his rehab to ensure that he's not pushing too hard.  It would be naive to say that there isn't pressure on the kid from multiple directions to come back sooner than later but it should be obvious that no one wants him to suffer a setback or come back before he's ready.  Both Dr. Andrews and our coaching staff have made public statements attesting that their primary desire to get Griffin healthy for the long haul, not just for the 2013 season.

 

 

 

You hope there's not a lot of substance there. Like I said , I can't discount it as stupid as it sounds as I saw a guy that looked an awful like like RG3 limping around in wild card weekend. But if I were a Redskin fan , I would choose to poo-poo it also. What you " heard" and what we saw seem to be two different things. Anyway , Ive read this whole thread , as unlike most others , I don't want to post something that someone else already has and I don't see "a lot of substance " anywhere in the 4 pages. But no ... I have no idea if this is true . I just can't dismiss it after seeing those * clear a guy that was obvs. stiill hurting last year.

[amfootball]

Dude, that situation is way different. Everyone at that point knew that Tebow's throwing was horrible and inaccurate. They were not afraid to let him pass, and they knew that he was going to be running more often than not. That is not the case with guys like Wilson or Griffin. They can kill you with the deep ball (Griffin is particularly good at that), freeze the DEs with the handoff, and either let the stud RB do their work or keep it and bounce to the outside themselves. There are so many different possibilities that this type of offense is going to give defenders headaches for years to come. As myself and RGIII have mentioned numerous times before, just blowing up the quarterback every play isn't going to help anyone win a game. They'll be more likely to lose money and or players doing stuff like that. And I highly doubt that Roethlisberger wants to get hit often lol. He just had a life threatening injury last season...the last thing he wants is to get hammered.

Did you miss his 300 yard, 3 TD performance against the #1 ranked steelers D the week before? That is total baloney and you know it. Fact is Tebow was one of the best at the long ball ALL season and a threat to throw. The Pats were not coming up to just stop the run, they were coming up to disrupt the whole timing of the zone read. That is the point. They flanked the pitch man and put pressure up the middle. Watch what the Steelers did to RG in the regular season game they played in Pitt and you will see the same thing. For this thing to really work it has to be used sparingly and even then it can just as easily go for a loss or a fumble. Defeneses will be keyed up just like they were the second year after the wild cat made its splash.

[Qwiz]

Did you miss his 300 yard, 3 TD performance against the #1 ranked steelers D the week before? That is total baloney and you know it. Fact is Tebow was one of the best at the long ball ALL season and a threat to throw. The Pats were not coming up to just stop the run, they were coming up to disrupt the whole timing of the zone read. That is the point. They flanked the pitch man and put pressure up the middle. Watch what the Steelers did to RG in the regular season game they played in Pitt and you will see the same thing. For this thing to really work it has to be used sparingly and even then it can just as easily go for a loss or a fumble. Defeneses will be keyed up just like they were the second year after the wild cat made its splash.

You're right. Tebow was a threat to throw....in the last five minutes of the 4th quarter. I'm one of the biggest Tebow fans out there but his skill set is not comparable to Griffin's. The pistol has been used for more than a decade now and will not fizzle like the wildcat. Flank the pitchman all you want, but be warned: These guys can and will throw it over your LBs.

[RGIII]

Did you miss his 300 yard, 3 TD performance against the #1 ranked steelers D the week before? That is total baloney and you know it. Fact is Tebow was one of the best at the long ball ALL season and a threat to throw. The Pats were not coming up to just stop the run, they were coming up to disrupt the whole timing of the zone read. That is the point. They flanked the pitch man and put pressure up the middle. Watch what the Steelers did to RG in the regular season game they played in Pitt and you will see the same thing. For this thing to really work it has to be used sparingly and even then it can just as easily go for a loss or a fumble. Defeneses will be keyed up just like they were the second year after the wild cat made its splash.

 

Steelers blew the coverage on Thomas in OT which is the only reason Tebow got to 300 yards (a number that is by far a career outlier for Timmy Tim Tim Tim) and even that wasn't a great pass.  I don't understand how some people think that a guy who can't even complete 50% of his passes is a capable QB.  Tebow is not a good passer even by the QBing standards of 50 years ago.

 

Did you watch the Steelers and Redskins game?  They didn't even have to defend the zone read that much because we played from behind all game and aired it out far more than we'd have liked to.  The stats show Griffin ran 6 times for 8 yards but those numbers include two sneaks to push the ball out of the end zone for a kneel down at the half (3/6 runs), a kneel to end the game (4/6), and a scramble for the end zone from inside the five yard line (5/6).  The only time Griffin took off with it on the zone read play went for an easy 7 yard gain and Alfred Morris was pretty effective on it when it went to him.  Where they did a good job of hitting Griffin was on conventional pass plays.

 

That game was lopsided because the execution was very poor (our receivers dropped a TON of passes, including several would-be TDs) and it was our worst game of the season by far in terms of offensive play-calling.  Lots of head scratchers in that game.  All-in-all, the Steelers responded more poorly to our misdirection elements than most people would believe based on the outcome.

 

I agree again.  That is why these are option offenses requiring a 'read.'  Defense has to read as well.  The offense has more options.  The defense needs to stay 'home.'

 

In defensive theory, the defense should have someone assigned to contain ALL options.  I guess I should just say you contain and 'try' to hit the guy with the ball.  There were some fakes by RG3 as well as Kaep that were flat out magical....If I assign a guyt to the QB...his job is to hit him legally....yet let him know he has been hit.

 

I want to be clear I am not arguing this point.  This is defense as it should be played against options.  I do insist on hitting the QB...especially if he is the fakes...most dangerous player on the field like RG3, Kaep, and even Wilson.  I would hit Luck as hard as I could too on a 'boot' or designed roll out.  

 

I get it.  I'm just saying that you have to be real careful if that's what you want to do because there are ways to exploit it.  Griffin was also starting to get some of that high profile franchise QB referee favoritism late in the season ala Brady and Manning where defenses got some phantom calls made against them on contact.

 

You hope there's not a lot of substance there. Like I said , I can't discount it as stupid as it sounds as I saw a guy that looked an awful like like RG3 limping around in wild card weekend. But if I were a Redskin fan , I would choose to poo-poo it also. What you " heard" and what we saw seem to be two different things. Anyway , Ive read this whole thread , as unlike most others , I don't want to post something that someone else already has and I don't see "a lot of substance " anywhere in the 4 pages. But no ... I have no idea if this is true . I just can't dismiss it after seeing those * clear a guy that was obvs. stiill hurting last year.

 

No, there just plain isn't any substance there.  There might be merit to what's being said but there's nothing to back it up.  A few people who are in all likelihood medically unqualified expressing concern for Griffin isn't even newsworthy.  Every fan of the guy is concerned about what could go wrong.  After a point you just have to trust that he's getting good treatment and pacing himself.

[jvan1973]

You're right. Tebow was a threat to throw....in the last five minutes of the 4th quarter. I'm one of the biggest Tebow fans out there but his skill set is not comparable to Griffin's. The pistol has been used for more than a decade now and will not fizzle like the wildcat. Flank the pitchman all you want, but be warned: These guys can and will throw it over your LBs.

Chris Ault started running the pistol at Nevada in 2005. Before that a few division 3 schools ran something similar. But it hasn't been a main stay for over a decade. Not sure where you're getting your info.

[Qwiz]

Chris Ault started running the pistol at Nevada in 2005. Before that a few division 3 schools ran something similar. But it hasn't been a main stay for over a decade. Not sure where you're getting your info.

It was popularized in 2005 but existed and was being run in the late 90s. That's over a decade.

[jvan1973]

It was popularized in 2005 but existed and was being run in the late 90s. That's over a decade.

By division three schools. Not by any division 1 school until 2005.

[Qwiz]

By division three schools. Not by any division 1 school until 2005.

I'm just saying that it's been around longer than people think, whether it was highly popular or not.