Fixing The Offensive Line

[hoosierhawk]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.  2010 was pathetic.  2009 wasn't much better.  We didn't have a LT.  Except for Jeff, I don't think we had a guy that could start for any other team.

 

This line is heads and tails better than 2010.

Start with Saturday. Think he was all pro. Diem was as good as anyone we have now and Charlie Johnson wasn't as bad as 4 out of 5 of our current starters. Pollack would fit in with this group. can't remember the left guard.

[MSColtsFan]

Start with Saturday. Think he was all pro. Diem was as good as anyone we have now and Charlie Johnson wasn't as bad as 4 out of 5 of our current starters. Pollack would fit in with this group. can't remember the left guard.

 

Saturday is an All Pro this season too - and the Packers benched him weeks ago.

[hoosierhawk]

Saturday is an All Pro this season too - and the Packers benched him weeks ago.

So what does that have to do with 2010?

[dw49]

Good!  Which one?  The 6th, 7th, or both?  Thanks by the way - I have looked for news about those picks with no success.

 

 

We kept both the 6th and 7th round picks that were conditional in those trades. Both were due to playing time stipulations that were not met. The draft picks that I mentioned are correct. We have traded away our 2nd and 5th. It's possible to gain maybe a 6th and 7th at the most (IMO) as compensation for losing free agents. However we signed a bunch of guys and just how what we signed stacks up against what we lost is a pure guess.

[TheJACKCOLT]

We didn't have Lilja, Diem was a shadow of his former self, remember they had to move him to G.  CJ was a decent utility player but he was no LT.  He was horrible at Minn last year but is doing okay at G this year.

 

Yes, I'm serious.  

I would have to disagree with you on this one, more than any post I have ever seen on this board, this is not even close. Lilga has been to a pro bowl since leaving the Colts. Johnson is a starting guard for the Vikings, who's running back just ran for the second most yards in a single, season in the history of the nfl. Kyle DeVan is a starter for the Titans right now. Diem at the level he played last year, much less 2009 or 2010 and any of the three formentioned are way better than Olsen or Mcglynn by a longshot. Only Reitz would even have a chance to compete with these four guys. You can't be serious that you wouldn't take any of these guys over Mcglynn or Olsen. All four would be a huge upgrade, this team would have a real shot. Tell me you would take Mcglynn or Olsen over any of these four.

[Smonroe]

Start with Saturday. Think he was all pro. Diem was as good as anyone we have now and Charlie Johnson wasn't as bad as 4 out of 5 of our current starters. Pollack would fit in with this group. can't remember the left guard.

 

I'll give you Jeff, but anyone who watched the Colts know he was declining by 2010.  Diem was bad in 10, he was an average G who couldn't really move well.   CJ was getting killed at LT.  Pollak can fit in with this group?  Really?  

 

The 10 line was undersized with no real tackles.  How can anyone think they're better than this group?  Wow, you guys have really short memories.

[MSColtsFan]

So what does that have to do with 2010?

 

You used Saturday's selection as an 'all pro' as supporting the argument that the 2010 line was better than the current OL.  I take it you mean pro bowl.  To me, those selections are meaningless in assessing on the field performance, given that Saturday is on the Pro Bowl team yet again and isn't even on the field any more.  More specifically, as much as I loved Saturday, I think he was in decline in 2010, nearly done last year, and as his performance this season seems to suggest, now likely done for good.

[Smonroe]

I would have to disagree with you on this one, more than any post I have ever seen on this board, this is not even close. Lilga has been to a pro bowl since leaving the Colts. Johnson is a starting guard for the Vikings, who's running back just ran for the second most yards in a single, season in the history of the nfl. Kyle DeVan is a starter for the Titans right now. Diem at the level he played last year, much less 2009 or 2010 and any of the three formentioned are way better than Olsen or Mcglynn by a longshot. Only Reitz would even have a chance to compete with these four guys. You can't be serious that you wouldn't take any of these guys over Mcglynn or Olsen. All four would be a huge upgrade, this team would have a real shot. Tell me you would take Mcglynn or Olsen over any of these four.

 

Sorry, I missed this post when I responded to your other one.

 

You're changing the question - it's not guys in their prime or guys that WERE here, it's if the 10 O line is better than this one.

 

We didn't have Lilja in 10.  DeVan was third team for the Titans until he had to play because of injury.  Diem was at G in 10, barely able to move.  CJ played LT for us, not G.  He was horrible last year at LT for the Vikes, but he's better at G.

 

So you'd rather have CJ, Pollak, Jeff (not in his prime, but in 10), Devan/Diem, Link than the guys we have right now?  That's the question.

[dw49]

I think comparing the O Lines of 2010 and 2012 is like trying to argue what smells worse ... poop or crap ? Didn't Jamie Richards also get some starts that year and when Diem went to guard , did Link get some playing time as a rookie ? 

[TheJACKCOLT]

Can you honestly say that you wouldn't take Lilga, who was on the 2009 team and even at his level now, starting for the Chiefs. Johnson starting now for the Vikings, DeVan starting now for the Titans, and even Diem at last years level, much less 2009 and 2010 over Mcglynn or Olsen. Castanzo is the only guy on this team who would definetly start for the 2009 and 2010 team, even Saturday was still playing at a decent level, grant you not as good as 2006, but much better than Mcglynn or Olsen by a longshot. Come on dude be serious.

[Smonroe]

Can you honestly say that you wouldn't take Lilga, who was on the 2009 team and even at his level now, starting for the Chiefs. Johnson starting now for the Vikings, DeVan starting now for the Titans, and even Diem at last years level, much less 2009 and 2010 over Mcglynn or Olsen. Castanzo is the only guy on this team who would definetly start for the 2009 and 2010 team, even Saturday was still playing at a decent level, grant you not as good as 2006, but much better than Mcglynn or Olsen by a longshot. Come on dude be serious.

 

Dude, I'm serious.  You keep wanting to change it up.  Lilja WAS NOT ON THE 2010 TEAM!  DeVan is 3rd STRING!

 

Let's open this up on another thread.  I'm interested in other people's opinions.

[TheJACKCOLT]

I'm not changing anything, Lilga was on the 2009 team, Johnson played guard for the Colts too, he was moved back out to tackle because of the Ugoh experiment. and was better than he got credit for, would take him at right tackle or either guard position now. I would love to hear other peoples opinions. I would take Saturday at his 2009 or 2010 level, johnson at 2009 until now,Lilga at 2009 up until now Diem at 2009, 2010, or 2011 and DeVan at 2009, 2010, or now over Mcglynn or Olsen now. Cut Mcglynn and OLsen and give me these four and we have a much better line. Please other opinions join in. 

[hoosierhawk]

Worst offensive we have ever had in recent memory. someone had a stat a week or two ago from somewhere that recorded the amount of time given to a QB to get rid of the ball after the snap. Luck had like two seconds if I remember. I think the worst in the league. He was sacked 41 times to Peytons' 16. I sure you will blame Luck for all of that but if not for his mobility you could add a hell of a lot more.

[#12]

It's difficult to rebuild to championship mode in a year or two.   I would be happy going into next season with more or less the same team, but a rebuilt O-line.  Spend money rebuilding the O-line, add incrementally elsewhere in the draft and with cheap free agents.  Add a few more Redding vet-types.

[#12]

 I sure you will blame Luck for all of that but if not for his mobility you could add a hell of a lot more.

An immobile QB without a Manning-style quick release would get killed behind this O-line. 

[TheJACKCOLT]

My last post on the subject, its hard for me to believe, any team at any time has had a "much worse" o-line than this one.  "GO COLTS"

[unitaswestand]

I actually would hope we can get 2-3 mid level, young vets at more like 2-3 mill

[GoColts8818]

We have to get better players no question about and the good news is that Grigson seems to know it.  He pretty much did what he could on a shoe string budget this year.  I think we need to go the free agent market to do it because while the draft might be able to help over the long run it's not going to help right away and it's clear the Colts are rapidly developing into a team that is going to expect to win sooner rather than later. 

[Superman]

I actually would hope we can get 2-3 mid level, young vets at more like 2-3 mill

 

Carl Nicks was arguably the best guard on the market last year. His contract with five years, $47.5m, with $25m guaranteed in the first two years. After those two years, there's not even a bonus structure worked into his contract, meaning if he's not working out, you could essentially release him with no cap penalty.

 

I want us to sign players that can help the team, including mid-level vets that have potential to improve but that don't cost a lot of money. However, if we identified a high caliber player at a particular position of need, and could get him, I wouldn't mind seeing us open up the pocketbook to acquire him. If you sign a high caliber guard for five years, you're essentially sewing up the left side of the line for the next half decade, making life a lot easier for your young quarterback. And if you're creative with the contract structure, you can do so in a way that doesn't hurt you later on down the line. I'd be disappointed if we had an opportunity at a player of that caliber and didn't pull the trigger.

[Malakai432]

It's difficult to rebuild to championship mode in a year or two. I would be happy going into next season with more or less the same team, but a rebuilt O-line. Spend money rebuilding the O-line, add incrementally elsewhere in the draft and with cheap free agents. Add a few more Redding vet-types.

I agree I think the 2014 season is when we will start to see the beginning of a somewhat Super Bowl caliber team that has potential to make deep playoff runs consistently. After this season I think we need to heavily work on the trenches enhancing both the OL & DL. I think it might be a tad difficult to fill all holes like signicantly improving the backfield w another CB and SS, while molding the DL into a solid 3-4 line and also trying to make this OL into a top 15 consistent OL. Definitely takes time but I think they can focus heavily on the OL and DL after this year via FA and the draft.

Should be an interesting offseason, they might also bring in some new coordinators. Who knows if BA will stay and how confident they feel in Manusky, and the OL coach, perhaps others.

The team in general was broken up and patched together pretty quickly so I still think we will see many changes. However this "reloaded," team ended up holding its own this year and that is an unbelievable feet.

I myself would definitely be happy going into next season with pretty much just a signicantly improved OL. However, it is possible with this staff that they will suprise us with many efficient key upgrades to various positions.

[Carlos Danger]

Levitre is very good... not sure if he fits well enough to justify paying him what he will demand... other options include...

 

Sebastian Vollmer OT, Patriots, 28

Andre Smith OT, Bengals, 25

Branden Albert, OT, Chiefs, 28

Phil Loadholt OT, Vikings, 27

Jermon Bushrod OT, Saints, 28

William Beatty OT, Giants, 27

Tyronne Green G, Chargers, 26

Ramon Foster G, Steelers, 27

Chris Williams G, Rams, 27

Louis Vasquez G, Chargers, 25

 

I left out Clady and Long because I also think that they will either not be available or will be too expensive to commit to, IMO.

 

I really like Bushrod due to the fact that he is comfortable at G also, but most of these guys could probably make that adjustment... Vasquez looks like a perfect fit. I think Beatty might be able to be signed at a better bargain than some of the others, but any of these guys would help our line tremendously... I just want to see the $$ spent wisely.

[Carlos Danger]

I agree with many of you that OL is something that we should address through FA as much as possible, because OL prospects are so hit and miss through the draft.

There are a ton of guys in the draft that we can plug into our D immediately, but I might look at getting some secondary help through FA, also... Mike Jenkins from Dallas or Keenan Lewis from Pittsburgh might be good values...Dashon Goldson, the S from San Francisco would look good in blue as well.

[dw49]

I actually would hope we can get 2-3 mid level, young vets at more like 2-3 mill

 

 

That doesn't even get you a guy like Justice. 

[GoColts8818]

Levitre is very good... not sure if he fits well enough to justify paying him what he will demand... other options include...

Sebastian Vollmer OT, Patriots, 28

Andre Smith OT, Bengals, 25

Branden Albert, OT, Chiefs, 28

Phil Loadholt OT, Vikings, 27

Jermon Bushrod OT, Saints, 28

William Beatty OT, Giants, 27

Tyronne Green G, Chargers, 26

Ramon Foster G, Steelers, 27

Chris Williams G, Rams, 27

Louis Vasquez G, Chargers, 25

I left out Clady and Long because I also think that they will either not be available or will be too expensive to commit to, IMO.

I really like Bushrod due to the fact that he is comfortable at G also, but most of these guys could probably make that adjustment... Vasquez looks like a perfect fit. I think Beatty might be able to be signed at a better bargain than some of the others, but any of these guys would help our line tremendously... I just want to see the $$ spent wisely.

i would love to get Vasquez if we can.

[jbaron04]

I think what we should do is go after Levi in free agency , draft a guard in the 3rd round bring Winston back for reasonable deal like 3 yr 10m ijalana can come to came to compete for g or tackle spot maybe guard do to his acl injurys lack of agility but I would not be mad if we went after long to play rt and Levi I mean if u gonna spend money were better than the oline

[Superman]

That doesn't even get you a guy like Justice. 

 

Sure it does. Justice is at one year, $1.5m. Jake Scott wound up signing for $825k, and I believe that's prorated. And on and on.

[dw49]

Sure it does. Justice is at one year, $1.5m. Jake Scott wound up signing for $825k, and I believe that's prorated. And on and on.

 

 

Jake Scott was out of football for most of 2012 and he certainly is not a "2nd tier young O lineman."  Justice is not really a 1.5 m player. Little more than that to the deal....In any event , I think it's wishful thinking to hope to fix the O line with a "couple of young guys at 2-3 million." To my knowledge , there is no market that cheap for 4 year vets with upside.  But what do I know....

 

 

 

 

Indianapolis Colts OT Winston Justice has agreed to restructure his contract and will have his 2012 base salary drop from $3.225 million to $1.5 million. In exchange for reducing his contract, the team voided the final deal of Justice's contract.

 

 

 

[dw49]

Sure it does. Justice is at one year, $1.5m. Jake Scott wound up signing for $825k, and I believe that's prorated. And on and on.

 

 

Or I could have said it won't get you a guy like Samson Satale. He costs 10.8m over 3 years. Even if cut after 2 years he would still cost about 6.6 as we would eat around 1.1 mill in cap hit.

[NewColtsFan]

I think we'll be okay even if we spend a little more than we should in free agency. Just so long as we get players that fill holes, and aren't bums.

As for the draft, it's much more hit and miss than free agency is, but mistakes cost less.

 

Surprised you think this.....    I think it's the opposite...  that FA is more hit and miss.     And I think with the new CBA,  mistakes in FA are now often MUCH more expensive.

 

Just my two cents....