This is good for a laugh

[The Peytonator]

And mine, thank you very much. And I nearly came back after FJC with a followup after looking at a couple of late Pats games from 2007 which demonstrated a determination to pile it on. They failed to do so - to their detriment - in both games, when simply managing the clock (like they ironically did so successfully during their SB winning years) would have put the games away. Their mindset that year was bizarre, unique, and a running irritant/controversy throughout the league for the entire year. Throwing it back in the Colts face about 2004 - which involved NO such controversy is revisionist history.

It's almost like he had a preconceived notion and didn't bother to actually read the thread. Funny how that works.

Yup. You get a gold star too lol.

I think a few of us had some solid points, but it's not like they're gonna see it our way....then when they do it's not like they're gonna admit it. What bugged me was someone saying, 'well look at how many 4,000 yard seasons Peyton had', as if that's even a good point. Some guys get numbers because they have to, and do so without running up the score in garbage time. Aaron Rodgers had a pretty good season last year, I don't remember anyone saying GB was running up the score.

[The Peytonator]

where are the laughs this thread promised me.....???

Indubitably!!!!

Did I use it in the right context? :highfive:

[BrentMc11]

Indubitably!!!!

Did I use it in the right context? :highfive:

A Perfect 10!!!! Just in time for the Olympics!!!!!

[southwest1]

Funny...he used indubitably. "without question," and "decidedly so, " but indubitably is his version of 'HECK yes."

In my dad's house indubitably meant "doubt me at your own peril son." Meaning: Go ahead and test me if you want to, but you'll be the one crying not me.

[ViriLudant]

Funny how you conveniently ignore FJC's post that completely dispells this notion.

Idiocy.

(void)

ROFL

So let me get this straight: because Peyton, in one game, took a knee, that means he never ran up stats?

You mean like that time that he stayed late in a game just to break a record with Marvin Harrison?

Or like when he stayed in that game against Detroit on Thanksgiving when it was 34-9, just to throw another TD? Even though the Lions were the Lions of '04, and couldn't win a game to save their lives?

Yeah, he NEVER cared about stats.

Sorry, folks, but only Colt fans believe that Peyton doesn't care about stats.

At the same time, however, I'm of the mindset that they're playing professional sports. Know what? You don't want an opposing QB to humiliate you?

Stop the QB, then. Make plays. NFL players are paid millions, and fans want to whine about stats?

[ViriLudant]

And mine, thank you very much. And I nearly came back after FJC with a followup after looking at a couple of late Pats games from 2007 which demonstrated a determination to pile it on. They failed to do so - to their detriment - in both games, when simply managing the clock (like they ironically did so successfully during their SB winning years) would have put the games away. Their mindset that year was bizarre, unique, and a running irritant/controversy throughout the league for the entire year. Throwing it back in the Colts face about 2004 - which involved NO such controversy is revisionist history.

It's almost like he had a preconceived notion and didn't bother to actually read the thread. Funny how that works.

Uh huh.

Sounds like someone never watched the Patriots in '07.

Tell you what, explain this to me:

Why is it that the Colts' '04 running game scored so few TDs?

The Patriots' 07 running game scored many more than the Colts did in '04. I wonder why. Hmm. Peyton called the plays at the line at times, right?

Huh. Interesting.

[Captain Americolt]

Uh huh.

Sounds like someone never watched the Patriots in '07.

Tell you what, explain this to me:

Why is it that the Colts' '04 running game scored so few TDs?

The Patriots' 07 running game scored many more than the Colts did in '04. I wonder why. Hmm. Peyton called the plays at the line at times, right?

Huh. Interesting.

Probably because the Patriots were classily blowing teams out by the 3rd quarter, and therefore no need for passing the ball much more, allowing more running opportunities. Wheras the 04 Colts didnt blow teams out. Many games came to the 4th quarter.

Funny how many pats games that year were done by halftime and Brady still has 80+ pass attempts than Manning had in 04

[Captain Americolt]

Tom Brady averaged a TD pass per 11.56 attempts in 07.

Peyton Manning averaged a TD per 10.14 attempts in 04.

Brady had exactly 81 more pass attempts. Give Peyton 81 more pass attempts in 04 and, according to the math, he would have 7.9 more Tds that year... round that ugly 7.9 number to 8.

Peyton would've had about 57 TD passes in 04 had he had about the same number of attempts as Brady... and if he wanted to blow out other teams.

[ViriLudant]

Tom Brady averaged a TD pass per 11.56 attempts in 07.

Peyton Manning averaged a TD per 10.14 attempts in 04.

Brady had exactly 81 more pass attempts. Give Peyton 81 more pass attempts in 04 and, according to the math, he would have 7.9 more Tds that year... round that ugly 7.9 number to 8.

Peyton would've had about 57 TD passes in 04 had he had about the same number of attempts as Brady... and if he wanted to blow out other teams.

Except that Brady often threw in lieu of the running game.

In other words, in '04 the Colts' main RB, Edgerrin James, ran for 1548. Look at that number again. That's pretty darn impressive.

For the Patriots in '07, the main RB was... um... I'm thinking BJGE? Nope.

Oh, that's right, Laurence Maroney. That season, he ran for 835. That's only slightly more than half of James' yards.

Due to to the ineffectiveness of the running game, Brady had to often resort to the short pass to guys like Welker and Faulk to substitute for the running game.

So, unfortunately, the TD per pass attempt doesn't work at all as an argument.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Except that Brady often threw in lieu of the running game.

In other words, in '04 the Colts' main RB, Edgerrin James, ran for 1548. Look at that number again. That's pretty darn impressive.

For the Patriots in '07, the main RB was... um... I'm thinking BJGE? Nope.

Oh, that's right, Laurence Maroney. That season, he ran for 835. That's only slightly more than half of James' yards.

Due to to the ineffectiveness of the running game, Brady had to often resort to the short pass to guys like Welker and Faulk to substitute for the running game.

So, unfortunately, the TD per pass attempt doesn't work at all as an argument.

So the post you just made is supposed to work as an argument? Well let's not call it an argument. Let's call it a valid point.

Was that supposed to be a valid point?

[Captain Americolt]

Except that Brady often threw in lieu of the running game.

In other words, in '04 the Colts' main RB, Edgerrin James, ran for 1548. Look at that number again. That's pretty darn impressive.

For the Patriots in '07, the main RB was... um... I'm thinking BJGE? Nope.

Oh, that's right, Laurence Maroney. That season, he ran for 835. That's only slightly more than half of James' yards.

Due to to the ineffectiveness of the running game, Brady had to often resort to the short pass to guys like Welker and Faulk to substitute for the running game.

So, unfortunately, the TD per pass attempt doesn't work at all as an argument.

So are you saying the Pats 07 team ran for a total of 835 yards the entire season? I hope not. Or are you leaving out the other players that helped accumulate 1849 yards on the ground for you guys in 07? Our 04 team ran for 1851 yards. Not a big difference at ALL. Obviously the lack of thought you put in your reply doesnt help your "argument"

So, unfortunately, the TD per pass attempt does work afterall as an argument.

[The Peytonator]

ROFL

So let me get this straight: because Peyton, in one game, took a knee, that means he never ran up stats?

You mean like that time that he stayed late in a game just to break a record with Marvin Harrison?

Or like when he stayed in that game against Detroit on Thanksgiving when it was 34-9, just to throw another TD? Even though the Lions were the Lions of '04, and couldn't win a game to save their lives?

Yeah, he NEVER cared about stats.

Sorry, folks, but only Colt fans believe that Peyton doesn't care about stats.

At the same time, however, I'm of the mindset that they're playing professional sports. Know what? You don't want an opposing QB to humiliate you?

Stop the QB, then. Make plays. NFL players are paid millions, and fans want to whine about stats?

Ummm. Yeah. Peyton did not care about stats. As evidenced by the many a time he didn't play more than a drive or two in the last game of the regular season. How many times has Brady done that? Stop slobbering all over Brady's knob and maybe you'll understand what everyone else understands.

Let me spell this out in clear english.....

When Peyton is on the verge of breaking a record, he takes a knee inside the opponents 5 yard line with a minute to go. When Brady is on the verge of breaking a record, he throws a jump ball to Randy Moss.

[Gavin]

Ummm. Yeah. Peyton did not care about stats. As evidenced by the many a time he didn't play more than a drive or two in the last game of the regular season. How many times has Brady done that? Stop slobbering all over Brady's knob and maybe you'll understand what everyone else understands.

Let me spell this out in clear english.....

When Peyton is on the verge of breaking a record, he takes a knee inside the opponents 5 yard line with a minute to go. When Brady is on the verge of breaking a record, he throws a jump ball to Randy Moss.

Actually not true as Peyton did break the Marino record to begin with so he didnt always take a knee, also there was talk about teams running up the score on one of these threads specifically the Pats and Colts, My question would be this, what would constitute a blow out in someones eyes (now obviously there real true no brainer blowouts such as 62-7) but other then that what is a blow out in some people eyes being up 21 in the 4th? cause its been proven that kind of lead isnt safe? being up 28? blow out would have to be defined I think except for the obvious which I already mentioned

[Gavin]

But to finish off my above statement, Im not about to take Peyton out just to show a team that I am beating the crap out of just to show mercy and not run up the score

[ViriLudant]

Ummm. Yeah. Peyton did not care about stats. As evidenced by the many a time he didn't play more than a drive or two in the last game of the regular season. How many times has Brady done that? Stop slobbering all over Brady's knob and maybe you'll understand what everyone else understands.

Let me spell this out in clear english.....

When Peyton is on the verge of breaking a record, he takes a knee inside the opponents 5 yard line with a minute to go. When Brady is on the verge of breaking a record, he throws a jump ball to Randy Moss.

Says the guy who was all of 13 when Peyton played in '04. I'm sure that you remember his games soooo well.

Child, please.

Those of us who actually watched him in '04 and know football know that Peyton was just as into stats as any other QB.

Of course, I tend to think that the whole "just into stats" argument is pretty weak, anyway. But then again, it was a Colts fan who apparently is obsessed about it.

Btw, you still haven't demonstrated that Peyton wasn't obsessed about stats in that Thanksgiving game. You know, that one where the Colts were winning 34-9 in the 3rd quarter.

[Nadine]

Everybody please, think before you post.

In general........simmer down now

http://www.hulu.com/watch/278020

[FireJimCaldwell]

Says the guy who was all of 13 when Peyton played in '04. I'm sure that you remember his games soooo well.

Child, please.

Those of us who actually watched him in '04 and know football know that Peyton was just as into stats as any other QB.

Of course, I tend to think that the whole "just into stats" argument is pretty weak, anyway. But then again, it was a Colts fan who apparently is obsessed about it.

Btw, you still haven't demonstrated that Peyton wasn't obsessed about stats in that Thanksgiving game. You know, that one where the Colts were winning 34-9 in the 3rd quarter.

If he were half as obsessed about stats/#'s in that game as you want people to believe, he would've stayed in and tied the NFL record of 7 or broke it with 8 touchdown passes in a single game. Considering #12 Jim Sorgi entered the game in the 3rd quarter it's quite clear that wasn't a goal on that particular game.

Thanks for playing.

[shakedownstreet]

sometimes i miss the dislike button :evil:

[21isSuperman]

Let's keep it friendly here folks, fans from all teams are welcome. The Peyton/Brady stuff has been going on for many years and neither side will budge. Both guys are great QBs and I feel lucky to have been able to watch both play. It's impossible to objectively determine who is the better QB, so think twice before posting, be respectful of the opinions of others, and try not to get into any bickering arguments.

[The Peytonator]

Says the guy who was all of 13 when Peyton played in '04. I'm sure that you remember his games soooo well.

Child, please.

Those of us who actually watched him in '04 and know football know that Peyton was just as into stats as any other QB.

Of course, I tend to think that the whole "just into stats" argument is pretty weak, anyway. But then again, it was a Colts fan who apparently is obsessed about it.

Btw, you still haven't demonstrated that Peyton wasn't obsessed about stats in that Thanksgiving game. You know, that one where the Colts were winning 34-9 in the 3rd quarter.

My age is irrelevent. Just because a team can take another team and dominate them for 3 quarters, does not mean they are padding stats. What are they supposed to do, punt on first down every other posession just to make it fair? Again, if Peyton were into his stats, he would have stayed in the game after putting up 6 TDs and would have went for the record of 7. Wouldn't of been too hard against the Lions that year. Instead, the coaches did the respectable thing and put in Sorgi. Also in the Ravens game, when he was inside their 5 yard line at the end of the game, he would have at least tried to get another TD in his stat column.

Look at Rodgers last year. He put up some big time numbers. He didn't run up the score on weak teams like Drew Brees did. He even sat out the last game of the regular season. Brees on the other hand, stayed in a game that was already won, just to break Marino's record.

Your arguments are laughable.....and you say I don't know football.

[The Peytonator]

Everybody please, think before you post.

In general........simmer down now

http://www.hulu.com/watch/278020

My apologies for the rude comment earlier. Arguing with a Pats fan can bring out the worst in us.

[Superman]

If he were half as obsessed about stats/#'s in that game as you want people to believe, he would've stayed in and tied the NFL record of 7 or broke it with 8 touchdown passes in a single game. Considering #12 Jim Sorgi entered the game in the 3rd quarter it's quite clear that wasn't a goal on that particular game.

Thanks for playing.

I wanted to point that out, but decided not to. Glad someone did.

[BrentMc11]

sometimes i miss the dislike button :evil:

I need more likes! I also want likes on status updates.....I would love dislikes.

[Nadine]

sometimes i miss the dislike button :evil:

I understand and feel that way sometimes myself.

But we had much more drama when we had that.

Less Drama = Better

[Yehoodi]

My age is irrelevent. Just because a team can take another team and dominate them for 3 quarters, does not mean they are padding stats. What are they supposed to do, punt on first down every other posession just to make it fair? Again, if Peyton were into his stats, he would have stayed in the game after putting up 6 TDs and would have went for the record of 7. Wouldn't of been too hard against the Lions that year. Instead, the coaches did the respectable thing and put in Sorgi. Also in the Ravens game, when he was inside their 5 yard line at the end of the game, he would have at least tried to get another TD in his stat column.

Look at Rodgers last year. He put up some big time numbers. He didn't run up the score on weak teams like Drew Brees did. He even sat out the last game of the regular season. Brees on the other hand, stayed in a game that was already won, just to break Marino's record.

Your arguments are laughable.....and you say I don't know football.

Been away for a few days but wanted to get back to some of your posts . . .

First off I have a question for you Peytonator . . . Peytonator you mentioned in your post (post #23 in this thread) that the Pats can be viewed as running up the score in the Washington game . . . you then write in the above post that the Colts did the right thing by taking PM out in the game . . . there seems to be an inconsistancy in your view on things and I would further elaboration if you dont mind. . .

In the game against Wash, the Pats had TB in the game for 6 possessions in the first half, then for 2 possessions in the second half, then pulled him in favor of our backup Cassell who threw on our 9th possession . . .

Similarly, in the Detriot game, the colts had PM in the game for 6 possessions in the first half, then for 2 possessions in the second half, and like the pats, pulled him in favor of the backup Sorgi who came out throwing for their 9th possession . . .

So my question is, if the Colts Coaching staff "did the respectible thing" by putting in Sorgi in the game after the 2nd possession of the second half . . . what is your opinion what the Pats coaching staff did in the Washington game when they put Cassel in after the 2nd possession of the second half?

[Yehoodi]

If he were half as obsessed about stats/#'s in that game as you want people to believe, he would've stayed in and tied the NFL record of 7 or broke it with 8 touchdown passes in a single game. Considering #12 Jim Sorgi entered the game in the 3rd quarter it's quite clear that wasn't a goal on that particular game.

Thanks for playing.

Please see my above post, Post 103 supra, and please give my you opinion on how the two coaching staffs handled the two games mentioned . . .

Overall for me, both franchised acted the same way, overall over the coarse of the season, taken knees when they could score, and pulling the starters when the game was out of hand . . . but leaving the starters in the 4th quarter when the game was not in hand and the opponent was still in reach of the game . . .

[Gavin]

Personally I dont see what the debate is over, the defense is paid to stop the offense, if they cant do that then its not the offenses problem that the score got out of hand they shouldn't have to show mercy just because the defense they played against on that particular day didnt show up, But its football not a social event I wouldnt be out to make friends and not hurt feelings, I didnt complain about the Saints running up the score, heck with our offense the score was ran up by the end of the first half, the defense couldn't have fought there way out of a paper bag in that game or many others for that matter and the offense......well yeah we all know how that went

[Yehoodi]

Pats vs. Colts, Brady vs. Manning, 2004 &49 vs. 2007 & 50, many are going to have various viewpoints.

I could throw out a list of facts that support the Pro-Manning or Pro Patriots Running up the score, but I'll pass..

Sitting on a 20-10 lead and 47 touchdowns, the Colts take position of the ball at the Ravens 4 with :59 seconds left. The crowd wants a shot at # 48.

Indianapolis Colts at 0:59

1-4-BLT 4 (:59) P.Manning kneels to BLT 5 for -1 yards.

2-5-BLT 5 (:18) P.Manning kneels to BLT 6 for -1 yards

To me that simply sums it up.

Thanks for posting FJC . . . I think PM did the right thing in taking a knee instead of throwing the ball . . . but at the same time discretion is the better part of valor . . . we all know what happened in the Miracle at the Meadowlands and even more recently in the 2005 Div playoff between Pitt and Indy and Bettis' fumble . . . alas, Vaderjadt was not able to get the FG, but in both games the games was all but over but the offense coughed up the ball and in the former the team ripped a loss from the jaws of victory . . .

if you look at the pats 07 games you find a few games last in the last possession the pats took and knee instead of chucking in the endzone or kicking a FG . . . also they would run a meanlingless run play on 4th and long and turn the ball over on downs as opposed to a FG or a throw to the endzone . . . the Buff game rings a bell to me one this one . . .

I am an sure the Colts did the same thing in other games on the last possession, running out the clock, as the pats did too . . .

but the overall point is, there seems to be this feeling that the Pats someone tried to score at every possible moment whilst the 04 colts somehow had this sort of uncommon valor and chose not to score when they otherwise could . . . sorry but nothing can be further from the truth . . .

both teams acted the same way in the two years, plus or minus, surely the pats might of be more angry after Spygate, and play harder throughout the game and thus maybe score once or twice more during the middle part of the game . . . but to say that the Pats were scoring unnecessarily (i.e. running up the score) is just not in compliance with the facts . . . well at least not different that how the colts handle 04 . .

you can call either team as you wish, but fans need to treat both teams with the same yard stick (see my post 103 supra) and call the same action by each time by the same set of glasses, and when you do they are the same animals, the only difference is the pats were just a tad more efficient at scoring, that is all, plan and simple . . .

[Superman]

Been away for a few days but wanted to get back to some of your posts . . .

First off I have a question for you Peytonator . . . Peytonator you mentioned in your post (post #23 in this thread) that the Pats can be viewed as running up the score in the Washington game . . . you then write in the above post that the Colts did the right thing by taking PM out in the game . . . there seems to be an inconsistancy in your view on things and I would further elaboration if you dont mind. . .

In the game against Wash, the Pats had TB in the game for 6 possessions in the first half, then for 2 possessions in the second half, then pulled him in favor of our backup Cassell who threw on our 9th possession . . .

Similarly, in the Detriot game, the colts had PM in the game for 6 possessions in the first half, then for 2 possessions in the second half, and like the pats, pulled him in favor of the backup Sorgi who came out throwing for their 9th possession . . .

So my question is, if the Colts Coaching staff "did the respectible thing" by putting in Sorgi in the game after the 2nd possession of the second half . . . what is your opinion what the Pats coaching staff did in the Washington game when they put Cassel in after the 2nd possession of the second half?

Not sure how much bearing this has, but Sorgi threw three passes in that game. He didn't "come out throwing." Neither did Matt Cassel, who threw the same three passes against the Redskins.

The difference is that Manning came out with 2:11 left in the third quarter, after securing a four touchdown lead (32 points), and Brady came out with 9:06 remaining in the 4th quarter, after securing a six touchdown lead (45 points).

There's really not much similarity to the way the Colts handled the Lions game and the way the Patriots handled the Redskins game. I don't think the Colts ran the score up on the Lions, and I don't remember anyone suggesting that they did at the time. When the Patriots pounded the snot out of the Redskins, the running up the score debate was all over the place.

I think there's a much easier defense to be made in the Dolphins game, even though that one was borderline itself. And every big win doesn't mean the winning team ran up the score. When the Patriots beat the Titans 59-0, I don't think anyone argued that they ran up the score. Every game is different. But Brady was out of the game early in the third quarter in that one. Again, different from the Redskins game.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I wanted to point that out, but decided not to. Glad someone did.

I have a list of things that I could point out that I have decided not to. Maybe I will at some point.

[Superman]

I have a list of things that I could point out that I have decided not to. Maybe I will at some point.

Tread lightly.

[Yehoodi]

Well obviously you aren't going to see it the way the rest of the league's fans do, as you are a Pats fan.....

I seem to recall a game from '07 against the Dolphins, you guys had a huge lead so you pull Brady out. Cassell comes in and throws a pick right away. Your offense gets the ball back, Brady comes back in and throws another TD.

This debate comes up every few months. You know your guys were running up the score. I remember it being brought up in the media a few times. The Saints got it a couple times, but you can't deny the Pats getting it more. I don't even care about the Washington game.....I remember Gibbs saying before the game that someone needs to figure out how to beat those guys, cuz he sure couldn't. They were finished before the game started.

You can argue all you want, but perception is reality, and the perception is, '07 Pats ran up the score on Miami, Buffalo, Washington, etc, then they got a nice dose of karma in the form of David Tyree. Fast forward and you've got '11 Saints running up scores for numbers.....see karmic offseason.

I remember that game Peytonator . . . and pulling Cassell was as much a teaching moment and it was the secure the game . . . we where playing in Miami, had the game in hand as you indicated, and in a one play Miami score . . . there was still plenty of time on the clock and if Miami score again, which they did on the next possession, its like a 14 points game with over half the 4th to go and anything can happen (this assumes the Cassell would of gone 3 and out, which he may have or even could of thrown another pick) . . . All BB was put TB back in, killed some clock (to shorten the game) and get back those 7 points and then its game set and match and Cassell can go play again . . .

I think we need to remember in the NFL that a 14-21 point lead early in the 4th qtr is not safe . . . I think that was the lead we had in three of our last games with the colts and they won two of them . . . even the Bills scored 17 points against us last season a 4th qtr to BEAT us (we LOST that game last year) . . . so is possible . . . it would be fool hardy to worry about perception more so than secure the game until its games set and match . . . I mentioned the Bills game and I always told my pats fan firend he in Massachusetts (yes there are pats fans that think we ran up the score and even some local talk show hosts too) . . . but I always told him that a 14-21 lead is not safe and look what Indy had done to us . . . he gets back to me and says "well the bills will never do it" but they did last year and we LOST the game . ..

I for one don't like losing and support any coach that does what is necessary, irregardless of public opinion, to ensure my teams wins . . . so for me after Cassell pick six, the game, altho still heavily on our favor, was not secure yet and needed to be, so i whole heartly support TB going back to kill some clock and get those 7 points back . . .

[FireJimCaldwell]

Tread lightly.

It's nothing to tread lightly about. It's nothing bad. Just facts. But why waste my time?

I guess by that comment the witch hunt is brewing again.

[Superman]

It's nothing to tread lightly about. It's nothing bad. Just facts. But why waste my time?

I guess by that comment the witch hunt is brewing again.

It was just a comment, tongue-in-cheek. Nothing to worry about.

[FireJimCaldwell]

It was just a comment, tongue-in-cheek. Nothing to worry about.

Maybe so... Yet I know otherwise.

[The Peytonator]

I'm done.

My fellow Colt fans are making all the points that need to be made. It's falling on deaf ears among Pat fans.

Once again. The Colts and Manning have never been said to be running up the score, among talking heads and/or fans of other teams.....apparently Pats fans feel differently. I guess they're just butthurt about the fact that everyone knows they've done it. It's like Superman said....each game, regardless of score, can be looked at differently in terms of running up the score. That blowout the Pats had against the Titans was not running up the score. They just kicked the crap out of them. The Washington game, everyone knew they were running up the score.

[Yehoodi]

I don't blame you for defending Brady, and I'm not going to debate you the details about the Patriots "padding stats" because I watch so few of their games (and I have no interest in doing tons of research). But hinting that the Colts are guilty of the same is a bit much. Lets not forget that in 2004 Manning barely played in the final game of the season (a routine occurrence). Jim Sorgi played and threw two TDs in a loss against a team that Manning then lit up in the playoffs. Compare that to 2007 when Brady had 5 TDs in the final two games where he had no need to play at all. How did the Colts handle a similar situation two years later? Many here (and elsewhere) rip the Colts for not trying to go undefeated when they had the chance - but then you could say that the mere act of trying to go undefeated (and breaking the TD record in the process) was an act of padding stats. The games meant nothing.

My personal perception of 2007 in it's entirety was that the Patriots felt that they had something to prove coming off the video controversy, and they had their foot on every opponents jugular from start to finish - every game. I felt that they scored at every opportunity regardless of the circumstances, and saw articles/tv broadcasts criticizing them for same (wasn't there a controversy about them going for it on fourth down - with Brady - late in a blowout - scoring one more time. The way the Pats handled the meaningless games - somethng most Pats fans are likely extremely proud of - was simply true to form. The Colts, on the other hand, have often ended games by running out the clock - even if on the opponents 10 yard line. It's a differing organizational philosophy having little to do with the QBs. For all we know Peyton wanted to run up the score but was told not to. But the actions speak for themselves, and you can't really have it both ways.

The ONLY time I have ever seen the Colts pad stats is in the first quarter of those same meaningless games, where Peyton would occasionally try to get one of his receivers (not himself) to a certain stat level. He was just trying to help out a team-mate, but I would never defend it to anyone. I found it embarrassing and pointless.

Mac I do agree with on some of your points but not have to respecfully disagree with you one others . . . I do think the Pats were very upset after Spygate and wanted to run the table . . . not that teams don't start the year wanting to go 19-0, but I think the Pats, nothwithstanding the "one game a time" montra, had decided, after Spygate, to run the table and go 19-0 (and add some bad words after this) . . .

Problem is if you want to go 19-0 you first got to 16-0 and worst still have to got 15-0 and 14-0 and so and so on . . . trouble is, if you decide week 2 to go 19-0, you can't loose a single game, so each game ends up a playoff type game . . . that is if you loose you are out and this case if we loose we are out of chance to go 19-0, to cant convert a 1 in the lose column back to a 0 later in the season . . .

and a part thinks the NFL teams knew this, and perhaps why the Path to Perfection on the NFLN started like week 4 . . . also each game was like a playoff game, each team were bring they A game even early in the season to be the one to knock us off . . . this is illustrated by the fact that our opponents were 1-14 the next game after playing us (with Phila the only team that won after playing us and the Giants did not play a regular season game after week 17) . . . but we had to go out and play , . .

but given the fact that we had to win each game or die (even if we well on our way securing the #1 seed) made us want to win each game and keep playing until it was absolutely game set and match . . . that is why BB put TB back in that Miami game i mentioned above . . . ya sure we had like a 95% to win after Cassell pick , but had a 99.9999% chance to win after TB came back in to kill 4 mins and get teh 7 points back . . . so it is not running up the score but trying to win at all cost . . .

I do think that 16-0 meant something to the Pats, even tho it carried a heavy burden of pressure as games 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 came along . . . some of the pats players admitted this after the year . . . I think if you look at history of the undefeated teams that lost late in the season and went on to have success in the playoffs, most will say they were happy they lost and it reset things and they could more focus on things ahead, as opposed to dragging this burden that dates back to September . . .

And for me if a franchise wants to go 16-0 I can't blame them (it is there choice and earned right) and in order to so you needs ur starters in the games for the last games even tho #1 seed is locked up ., . . the # 1 seed doesn matter as you still need to win each game to get to 16-0 . . . surely TB was the benefit of this in 2007 in that he played in every game . . . but I think it had as much to do with 16-0 as it did with 50 TDs . . .

as for the Colts "Decision" in 2009 which melted down the old board when it happened, that is a franchise decision based on resting starters and prepping for the playoffs as opposed to being a stats related goal . .. each philophsy take courage, the pats to carry that pressure into the playoffs and the colts dealing with letting history (i.e. 19-0) go in favor of the particular year's goal of resting and helping to win a ring that year . . .

and as I said previous, both teams are similar, with perhaps one of the few differences is that the pats wanted to go for 16-0 and the colts chose to rest after securing the #1, both had philophsy not directly born out of stats related goals . . . andyes TB did benefit in that because of this he got to play in the entire game on week 17

[Superman]

I remember that game Peytonator . . . and pulling Cassell was as much a teaching moment and it was the secure the game . . . we where playing in Miami, had the game in hand as you indicated, and in a one play Miami score . . . there was still plenty of time on the clock and if Miami score again, which they did on the next possession, its like a 14 points game with over half the 4th to go and anything can happen (this assumes the Cassell would of gone 3 and out, which he may have or even could of thrown another pick) . . . All BB was put TB back in, killed some clock (to shorten the game) and get back those 7 points and then its game set and match and Cassell can go play again . . .

I mentioned this game earlier as one that's more defensible than the Redskins game, but let's defend it on its actual merits.

The game was over. Miami's quarterback was Cleo Lemon, and their offense was dreadful. And, to be honest, with three minutes in the third quarter, after getting an interception, the Patriots came back out with their first teamers and were throwing the ball, although mostly short passes. The Pats punted, then Miami scored in the beginning of the fourth quarter, making the score 42-14. Then Cassel came in the next possession.

When Cassel threw the pick-six, there was 10:30 on the clock, and then the score was 42-21. Still a three touchdown game, not a 14 point game.

Putting Brady back in made sense: you just gave up a touchdown on defense, then you give up a touchdown on a turnover, and now your five touchdown lead is down to three, and there's still ten-plus minutes on the clock. You lost to the Colts in the playoffs the season before by giving up a big lead (smaller lead, better offense, but still). Go ahead and ice the game. Very defensible at that point.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that Brady needs to come back in and throw for a touchdown. He doesn't even really need to throw. He can hand the ball off, the offense can run the clock, and then you're looking at a much safer game. They came out and scored in two minutes, throwing three times and running twice -- and the run was working. It was NOT a clock-killing possession, as you suggest it was. It was about getting a four touchdown lead back, right away, and then putting in a different backup quarterback, who only threw once in six snaps.

More defensible than the Redskins game, but not entirely defensible on its own merits.

[Gavin]

in that particular game the Pats were up 42-7 at halftime, that score remained until the beginning of the 4th quarter when Brady was taken out, The Dolphins came out and scored a touchdown in the 4th quarter, that was followed by a interception on Matt Cassel by Jason Taylor that was ran back for a touchdown for the score to be 42-21 with 11:28 remaining. Brady came back out with 10:28 remaining and scored a touchdown to make the score 49-21 and then was taken out of the game, The Dolphins J. Chatman scored a touchdown after that, The Patriots had one more series on offense after that touchdown in which Gutierezz was brought into the game. Thats not running up the score, thats protecting a lead

[FireJimCaldwell]

Please see my above post, Post 103 supra, and please give my you opinion on how the two coaching staffs handled the two games mentioned . . .

Overall for me, both franchised acted the same way, overall over the coarse of the season, taken knees when they could score, and pulling the starters when the game was out of hand . . . but leaving the starters in the 4th quarter when the game was not in hand and the opponent was still in reach of the game . . .

I see and understand your point and the only reason why I am responding is because you are level-headed and you are one of a few Pats fans that post here that you can have a discussion with.

I guess the biggest difference to me is Brady going back in, and I highly doubt that Sorgi would have been pulled if he throws a pick six on his first drive after replacing Manning.

2007 was Welker's & Moss' first year in Boston and there is only so much you can do in practice. Some things have to be tested against an opponent and full speed. Personally I don't have a problem with a team keeping their foot on the gas. I wish the Colts would have done so. Even in 09 ended with the same result as the Pats in 07, and by that i mean 18-1, I would have rather lost 18-1 as opposed to 15-3.

I hate that Manning never played the prime of his career for an aggressive coach.

I guess the biggest complaint that many have in this thread is that VL is the one throwing stones at the Colts, but ignoring numerous facts in doing so.

Just like his un-thought out comment about Edge rushing for 1500 yards. So what? At the end of the year the Patriots had more carries, and the Colts had 3 more rushing yards. 1800 yards is 1800 yards just as 1500 is 1500 whether 1 man does it or 2 or 3 men do it.

I'd rather have some Patriots fan or a fan of another team come in and complain about Manning throwing 8 td's vs. the Lions, and him having the NFL record than him having 6 in that game, but on the other hand I like Ray Lewis has more than once commented on Manning taking a knee when he could have easily tried to get #48 in that game. So that knife cuts both ways.

As I said in another thread. Some people are worth responding to and some aren't. Thanks for being one of those worth responding to.