Do you see any progress with Richardson?

[luv_pony_express]

41 minutes ago, Patrick Miller said:

I posted this in another thread, but I’ll post it here as well. Do you think Ballard’s job is safe if we have to endure a losing season (or two) while Richardson gets his reps? Say we go 3-14. Is Ballard gone? 

 

Given the expectations of the season, I don't think Ballard would survive a 3-14 record.  I do think Ballard can survive a subpar year that misses the playoffs again.  But probably only for one more season, in that case.  But 3-14, compared to the expectations coming into the season, would almost certainly lead to a lot of heads rolling.  Ballard already survived one round of that.  It's hard to imagine him surviving another one.

 

It's worth remembering that Ed Dodds (probably among others) were wary of AR because of his tendency to miss so many layups.  Dodds asked Richardson about it point blank when they interviewed him.  Everybody was aware of it, of course.  But Dodds, in particular, was said to be skeptical.  Morocco Brown was AR's biggest cheerleader.

[ADnum1]

40 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

This is exactly right. In the offseason, every coach (Steichen, Turner, Cooter, AR's personal QB coach) talked about what he has been working on to refine his throwing motion. And all of the improvements he has made.

 

And so far, he doesn't look improved at all. If anything, he's gotten a bit worse. He throws those side-arm passes, sails passes, doesn't show much touch, etc.

 

I know it's his 7th game, but he's had NFL coaching for two years now, so some improvement in this area is a reasonable expectation. So is it coaching OR is is the player? 

 

And if it's the player, then short of a Josh Allen-like transformation, not sure what they can do.

 

 

Bills had OC's, QB coaches and throwing coaches as well to help Josh Allen in his accuracy.

 

But Josh felt like it wasn't helping so he recruited Jordan Palmer and the computer imaging of his throwing motion by himself.

 

The Bills never suggested those two steps.

 

Think of it this way.  If you have a poor golf swing, you can swing it a thousand times and you will have no improvement.

 

You have to fix your swing and then swing it a thousand times the correct way.

 

That is why throwing accuracy is so hard to fix but it can be done...

[RollerColt]

1 hour ago, ADnum1 said:

I see lots of comparisons to AR to Josh Allen, but please know that Allen is the exception not the rule on fixing accuracy.

 

After Allen's 2018 Rookie season, Allen hired QB guru Jordan Palmer and worked with him the entire offseason on fixing his footwork, mechanics etc, and most importantly the mental approach to the game.

 

 

Josh paid for it out of his own pocket too.  Bills did not pay for it.

 

He worked obsessively to constantly improve the mental aspect of his game as well and also using Digital Mapping to map out his current throwing motion to what it needed to be.

 

He did this with Jordan Palmer

 

https://darimotion.com/post/josh-allen-qb-for-the-bills-discusses-changing-his-throwing-motion-through-dari/

 

He re-vamped his throwing motion completely ground up from what it was during his rookie season.  His throwing motion is completely different now.  And he constantly practiced his new throwing motion until it was second nature.

 

He worked on 

• Basic Footwork
• Foot placement (lining up your feet to the target)
• Stepping into the throw
• Waist turn
• Shoulder turn
• And finally the throw itself.  He usually uses the same motion every time and does not vary it like AR does.

Never content, he did another digital remapping last summer https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/football/nfl/bills/2024/06/12/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-using-technology-change-throwing-mechanics/74064098007/  

 

And continued to refine it, always trying to improve it.

 

He did not get more accurate by "throwing more".  He had it fixed and practiced his new throwing motion obsessively

 

So essentially... We're screwed. 

[luv_pony_express]

13 minutes ago, el duderino said:

honestly he doesnt look like a nfl quarterback to me, but what do you expect from a guy who has 15 college games and 8 nfl games under his belt? 

 

That's the important point.  He's not NFL-ready.  And I can flat guarantee that everybody in the Colts' FO knows this -- as does everybody who matters on every other team.

 

The question is whether he'll ever be able to reach his potential sitting on the bench, given his lack of experience.  That doesn't mean that he's guaranteed to reach his potential as a starter.  He's not.  It's very much on the table that AR will end up the bust that some people insisted he would turn out to be.

 

Personally, I've just tempered my expectations in order to give him and the team the time to get him all the reps he needs to get all these defects worked out.  Because I agree that it isn't going to happen in practice.  There is no way to replicate game reps, unfortunately.  He needs to have the bullets flying.

 

What I'm going to need to see is that, in the final 5-6 games of this season, he's not doing the kinds of things we saw yesterday.  He's not badly missing wide open targets on easy throws.  He's not unnecessarily making off-balance throws.  He's not making terrible decisions to force throws when he needs to just eat it.  He's not waiting too long to decide what he's doing on RPOs.  He's not calling for the ball to be snapped when motion guys haven't been set.

 

If these things can largely be in the past by then, then I'll think we've found our guy.  And I'm willing to wait it out.  We've been missing the playoffs for a number of years now as it is.  What's one more season?  And, besides, it's not like there are ready solutions to the issue right there for the GM (be it Ballard or anybody else) to grab and turn things around.

[luv_pony_express]

2 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

 

So essentially... We're screwed. 

 

I think his point is that AR's throwing mechanics problems (which is of course different than his decision-making problems) are fixable....but that Josh Allen is among the minority of QBs who have gotten them fixed.

 

I don't know if that's the case or not.  Maybe.  It's not the first time this has been said.

 

Personally, I think every case is unique and it doesn't make a lot of sense to say that AR can do it because JA did it...or that AR can't do it because most inaccurate QBs don't do it.  Every case is unique.

 

I'll say this much:  I'm encouraged by AR's attitude to this point.  It's important that he recognizes the problem, has taken ownership of it, is working all the time to fix it, and is maintaining his confidence that he's capable of fixing it and still belongs under center for the Indianapolis Colts.

 

To me, the mental aspect of this is far more critical than the mechanical aspect of it.

[runthepost]

Not every QB will be a Mahomes or a Stroud it takes time. Lamar was viewed as an RB but won 2 MVPs as a QB

[shasta519]

1 minute ago, ADnum1 said:

Bills had OC's, QB coaches and throwing coaches as well to help Josh Allen in his accuracy.

 

But Josh felt like it wasn't helping so he recruited Jordan Palmer and the computer imaging of his throwing motion by himself.

 

The Bills never suggested those two steps.

 

Think of it this way.  If you have a poor golf swing, you can swing it a thousand times and you will have no improvement.

 

You have to fix your swing and then swing it a thousand times the correct way.

 

That is why throwing accuracy is so hard to fix but it can be done...

 

It can be done. But Allen was starting from a different spot. He wasn't as inaccurate as AR was in college in a lot of ways. So the increase that AR needs is even greater than Allen needed, who is already an outlier for that type of improvement.

 

Could just be that he hasn't found the right teacher, but to use the golfing analogy, it's not only about the swing either. There are different types of shots. It's like AR has figured out how to hit a driver far and straight, but is incapable of adjusting his swing for the other types of shots. So first, he has to do that AND then get in the reps to refine it. 

 

AR's INT rate is currently at 8.2%...and it could easily be above 10%. That means one out of every 12 passes is an INT. AR needs the reps, but can they have him go out there and throw 2-3 INTs on 20 PAs for several weeks in a row? 

 

 

[RollerColt]

Well this thread sure is depressing... 

[Solid84]

2 hours ago, ADnum1 said:

I see lots of comparisons to AR to Josh Allen, but please know that Allen is the exception not the rule on fixing accuracy.

 

After Allen's 2018 Rookie season, Allen hired QB guru Jordan Palmer and worked with him the entire offseason on fixing his footwork, mechanics etc, and most importantly the mental approach to the game.

 

 

Josh paid for it out of his own pocket too.  Bills did not pay for it.

 

He worked obsessively to constantly improve the mental aspect of his game as well and also using Digital Mapping to map out his current throwing motion to what it needed to be.

 

He did this with Jordan Palmer

 

https://darimotion.com/post/josh-allen-qb-for-the-bills-discusses-changing-his-throwing-motion-through-dari/

 

He re-vamped his throwing motion completely ground up from what it was during his rookie season.  His throwing motion is completely different now.  And he constantly practiced his new throwing motion until it was second nature.

 

He worked on 

• Basic Footwork
• Foot placement (lining up your feet to the target)
• Stepping into the throw
• Waist turn
• Shoulder turn
• And finally the throw itself.  He usually uses the same motion every time and does not vary it like AR does.

Never content, he did another digital remapping last summer https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/football/nfl/bills/2024/06/12/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-using-technology-change-throwing-mechanics/74064098007/  

 

And continued to refine it, always trying to improve it.

 

He did not get more accurate by "throwing more".  He had it fixed and practiced his new throwing motion obsessively

And he did it during the offseason, which AR lost because of injury. You can't work on this at this frequency and effectiveness during the season. Perspective

 

IIRC AR already said he's been in contact with Allen about this, but he needs an offseason to actually work at it.

[chad72]

2 hours ago, ADnum1 said:

I see lots of comparisons to AR to Josh Allen, but please know that Allen is the exception not the rule on fixing accuracy.

 

After Allen's 2018 Rookie season, Allen hired QB guru Jordan Palmer and worked with him the entire offseason on fixing his footwork, mechanics etc, and most importantly the mental approach to the game.

 

 

Josh paid for it out of his own pocket too.  Bills did not pay for it.

 

He worked obsessively to constantly improve the mental aspect of his game as well and also using Digital Mapping to map out his current throwing motion to what it needed to be.

 

He did this with Jordan Palmer

 

https://darimotion.com/post/josh-allen-qb-for-the-bills-discusses-changing-his-throwing-motion-through-dari/

 

He re-vamped his throwing motion completely ground up from what it was during his rookie season.  His throwing motion is completely different now.  And he constantly practiced his new throwing motion until it was second nature.

 

He worked on 

• Basic Footwork
• Foot placement (lining up your feet to the target)
• Stepping into the throw
• Waist turn
• Shoulder turn
• And finally the throw itself.  He usually uses the same motion every time and does not vary it like AR does.

Never content, he did another digital remapping last summer https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/football/nfl/bills/2024/06/12/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-using-technology-change-throwing-mechanics/74064098007/  

 

And continued to refine it, always trying to improve it.

 

He did not get more accurate by "throwing more".  He had it fixed and practiced his new throwing motion obsessively

 

I had no idea of all the things he had to do outside the confines of what the Bills provided.

 

Thanks for this perspective!!! It will be interesting to see how the Colts approach AR during the season and the off season. 

 

David Sutcliffe was a key part of Peyton Manning getting his throwing motion back after his 2011 season before he went to the Broncos. Tom House, a great throwing coach, worked with the likes of Tom Brady, Drew Brees etc. Recently, Jordan Palmer with Josh Allen.

 

The Colts should choose the right one that works to get AR to the next level.

[luv_pony_express]

2 minutes ago, runthepost said:

Not every QB will be a Mahomes or a Stroud it takes time. Lamar was viewed as an RB but won 2 MVPs as a QB

 

Maybe the team needs to start looking at AR's completion percentages in buckets.  For instance:

 

1) High-percentage -- this rate needs to be more than 90%.  Has plenty of time, receiver is open, route is properly run, the throw is either behind the LoS or no more than say 10 yards downfield.

 

2) Mid-percentage -- some of the above characteristics aren't met.  May be flushed out of the pocket.  Pass is defended, tighter window, longer distance (10-20 yards).  Completion rate should be 55-65%?  I don't know...spitballing.

 

3) Low-percentage -- Deep routes, tight windows and/or coverage. thrown under pressure, thrown off balance, etc.  And these are going to have completion percentages more like 25-30%.

 

 

AR doesn't have to be Mahomes or Stroud.  All QBs are different.  And he has a different set of skills than they do.  What he needs to be is sufficiently competent at the things that all NFL QBs have to be competent at.

 

If he can just take care of that (and that's still an outstanding question, obviously), then the rest will take care of itself.

[Superman]

15 hours ago, chad72 said:

I’m not disagreeing but will the mechanics break down under duress easily, only time will tell 

 

Absolutely, which is why he needs to play. Anyone can go out and run a passing drill with perfect mechanics. What really matters is what you do when the action is live.

 

I hope they're coaching him consistently on this, because every one of his overthrows is due to him rushing and whipping a sloppy pass from a funky arm angle. And several of them happen when he has plenty of time to get his feet set and make a routine throw.

 

What I said a few weeks ago, and I believe even more now, is that he's still adjusting to the speed of the game. When he sees a receiver pop open, sometimes he's late, or surprised, and reacts quickly to hit the receiver. When he starts seeing this more effectively, he'll anticipate these throws, and be more settled, and his mechanics will be more consistent. Then the overthrows will calm down. But in the meantime, he needs to be coached to just slow it down, he has to respect the process of making a good throw. 

[chad72]

1 minute ago, Solid84 said:

And he did it during the offseason, which AR lost because of injury. You can't work on this at this frequency and effectiveness during the season. Perspective

 

IIRC AR already said he's been in contact with Allen about this, but he needs an offseason to actually work at it.

 

Yep, he needs a NORMAL off season for sure. We just roll with the punches this season  

[Solid84]

13 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

AR's INT rate is currently at 8.2%...and it could easily be above 10%. That means one out of every 12 passes is an INT. AR needs the reps, but can they have him go out there and throw 2-3 INTs on 20 PAs for several weeks in a row? 

 

Yes? I don't get the question. This season is about getting AR ready and trying to win with the condition that AR has to play. Does that put a ceiling on our performance? Sure, but that's something we live with until we know what we have with AR.

[Superman]

2 hours ago, ADnum1 said:

I see lots of comparisons to AR to Josh Allen, but please know that Allen is the exception not the rule on fixing accuracy.

 

After Allen's 2018 Rookie season, Allen hired QB guru Jordan Palmer and worked with him the entire offseason on fixing his footwork, mechanics etc, and most importantly the mental approach to the game.

 

 

Josh paid for it out of his own pocket too.  Bills did not pay for it.

 

He worked obsessively to constantly improve the mental aspect of his game as well and also using Digital Mapping to map out his current throwing motion to what it needed to be.

 

He did this with Jordan Palmer

 

https://darimotion.com/post/josh-allen-qb-for-the-bills-discusses-changing-his-throwing-motion-through-dari/

 

He re-vamped his throwing motion completely ground up from what it was during his rookie season.  His throwing motion is completely different now.  And he constantly practiced his new throwing motion until it was second nature.

 

He worked on 

• Basic Footwork
• Foot placement (lining up your feet to the target)
• Stepping into the throw
• Waist turn
• Shoulder turn
• And finally the throw itself.  He usually uses the same motion every time and does not vary it like AR does.

Never content, he did another digital remapping last summer https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/football/nfl/bills/2024/06/12/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-using-technology-change-throwing-mechanics/74064098007/  

 

And continued to refine it, always trying to improve it.

 

He did not get more accurate by "throwing more".  He had it fixed and practiced his new throwing motion obsessively

 

This is good stuff. I just want to point out that Allen's mechanics will still break down from time to time. You can see this quite a bit in the first half of last season, but also at various other points throughout his career. To his credit, he's constantly working on his fundamentals, so he quickly recognizes when something is off and gets it corrected.

 

I believe Richardson is doing similar work, and has been for a while. But he has a long way to go to be consistent.

[Jz0204945]

15 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

He is basically a rookie but we aren't using him right. I love Shane but the last 2 weeks his play calling has me puzzled. We need to use a playbook similar to what the Ravens do with Lamar, AR needs to run more. 

Shane is calling Frank Reich games and it is ticking me off because he is better than that...

[Jz0204945]

Just now, Superman said:

 

This is good stuff. I just want to point out that Allen's mechanics will still break down from time to time. You can see this quite a bit in the first half of last season, but also at various other points throughout his career. To his credit, he's constantly working on his fundamentals, so he quickly recognizes when something is off and gets it corrected.

 

I believe Richardson is doing similar work, and has been for a while. But he has a long way to go to be consistent.

All fair points we all need to stay patient even though we may lose alot of winable games.

[BlackTiger]

2 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

This season is about getting AR ready and trying to win with the condition that AR has to play. Does that put a ceiling on our performance? Sure, but that's something we live with until we know what we have with AR.

This is a football team with more than one player and a fan base that wants to see wins.

 

Its not sacrifice everything for the sake of playing one guy

[Superman]

18 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

AR's INT rate is currently at 8.2%...and it could easily be above 10%. That means one out of every 12 passes is an INT. AR needs the reps, but can they have him go out there and throw 2-3 INTs on 20 PAs for several weeks in a row? 

 

Probably not, but they can adjust their coaching and play calling to put him in better positions. I think they've put a little too much on his shoulders as a passer so far, and have been overly restrictive with him as a runner, and if they get that balanced out, I think the INT rate comes down.

 

They also need to lean on the run game more, and play better defense. 

[indyagent17]

Sadly, I see regression. He is making bad decisions and has no touch. Mitchell and AR have no chemistry and they finally threw to Taylor and look what happened. Steichen coaching is mindboggling right now, I think he is trying to hard to force things and it is not working.  The worst plays were the interception in the endzone and lobbing a ball to Mitchell when he was wide open and would have scored with a harder pass   

[Solid84]

1 minute ago, BlackTiger said:

This is a football team with more than one player and a fan base that wants to see wins.

 

Its not sacrifice everything for the sake of playing one guy

That's what you do when you have a young QB who's a massive project. It's the way it's going to be for the next couple of seasons. Whether you're on board with that or not is really irrelevant.

[Superman]

Just now, Solid84 said:

That's what you do when you have a young QB who's a massive project. It's the way it's going to be for the next couple of seasons. Whether you're on board with that or not is really irrelevant.

 

The other part of it is that we'll only frustrate ourselves if we try to do a deep dive into every one of Richardson's performances. His development needs to be observed on a macro level, because there will be ups and downs over the course of the season. It's kind of silly to even be talking about "progress" at this point. 

[ShuteAt168]

2 hours ago, RollerColt said:

For the record, I really get and understand where some of those who are concerned with the accuracy are coming from. I really do. 

 

I don't like the straight up haters who just want to see this kid fail because for whatever reason they don't like him and refuse to give him a chance. It's a very long season. But thankfully that means as long as he stays healthy we should have plenty of tape on him by season's end. 

 

I'll say this. The kid is starting to really earn the respect of his teammates with effort like the Goodson scrum TD play. That type of stuff will win over a locker room. It's super frustrating. He's got the right mind, and the right attitude and the right work ethic to be great. It's all there. He's just got to figure out how to make those passes connect. 

 

I hope this works out. I hope beyond hope. Because if we indeed do have to tear everything down and start over? Well it's going to continue to be a really dark place around here for years to come. 

Due respect, I just don’t understand posts like this. You think there are Colts fans who hate AR and want to see him fail. What posts say this? Who says this? 

[Solid84]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The other part of it is that we'll only frustrate ourselves if we try to do a deep dive into every one of Richardson's performances. His development needs to be observed on a macro level, because there will be ups and downs over the course of the season. It's kind of silly to even be talking about "progress" at this point. 

100% agree. It's a little silly this is a thread yet to be honest.

[BlackTiger]

6 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

That's what you do when you have a young QB who's a massive project. It's the way it's going to be for the next couple of seasons. Whether you're on board with that or not is really irrelevant.

You are acting like you personally made the decision for this team to tank the next several years all for the sake of Anthony Richardson.

 

Nobody said its going to be like that and that isnt normal.  You are taking it too far bud and its not accurate

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, BlackTiger said:

You are acting like you personally made the decision for this team to tank the next several years all for the sake of Anthony Richardson.

 

Nobody said its going to be like that and that isnt normal.  You are taking it too far bud and its not accurate

 

What an exaggeration... 

[BlackTiger]

Just now, Superman said:

 

What an exaggeraton... 

That is exactly how that guy is acting

[Solid84]

Just now, BlackTiger said:

You are acting like you personally made the decision for this team to tank the next several years all for the sake of Anthony Richardson.

 

Nobody said its going to be like that and that isnt normal.  You are taking it too far bud and its not accurate

No I don't I've just accepted it is what it is.

 

The Colts knew AR had (I'd say) a historic lack of college QB experience coming into the NFL. He's massive project and getting that to pan out will take time. He's not going to get better sitting on the bench. He needs game reps and everyone from the Colts' FO to coaches know this. So again, whether you're on board with that or not is really irrelevant.

[BlackTiger]

Just now, Solid84 said:

So again, whether you're on board with that or not is really irrelevant.

Its not up to you, he could be benched or replaced.  He isnt above that

[shasta519]

1 minute ago, Solid84 said:

Yes? I don't get the question. This season is about getting AR ready and trying to win with the condition that AR has to play. Does that put a ceiling on our performance? Sure, but that's something we live with until we know what we have with AR.

 

Not about the impact on the W/L record or team performance...moreso just regarding AR's development and mindset. 

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

100% agree. It's a little silly this is a thread yet to be honest.

 

I don't mind a running thread that talks about his progress, but this thread seems to be asking whether Richardson has improved overall, and that's a miss, IMO. 

[Solid84]

1 minute ago, BlackTiger said:

Its not up to you, he could be benched or replaced.  He isnt above that

Sure, but that's not going to happen this season and probably not next season either.

[BlackTiger]

Just now, Solid84 said:

Sure, but that's not going to happen this season and probably not next season either.

if he plays like this all season long he wont get another full season to do the same.  its been pretty bad.

 

that wont happen

[Solid84]

Just now, BlackTiger said:

if he plays like this all season long he wont get another full season to do the same.  its been pretty bad.

 

that wont happen

Of course he will. AR needed a full offseason to work on his mechanics and he didn't get that. After this season he'll get that chance and the chance to prove it's paid off next season.

[BlackTiger]

1 minute ago, Solid84 said:

Of course he will. AR needed a full offseason to work on his mechanics and he didn't get that. After this season he'll get that chance and the chance to prove it's paid off next season.

not a chance, its been really bad this year.  We will rack up losses and he would  be looking terrible out there.  he wont get 2 seasons of that

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, BlackTiger said:

That is exactly how that guy is acting

 

No he isn't. This is absurd. 

 

Here's the point: If the goal was more stable, reliable QB play, there are tons of options available. But that's not the goal. We've been doing that since Luck retired. The goal is to find a franchise QB who raises the level of play for the entire team. And that process is more difficult, and will come with some growing pains. 

 

When we drafted a young, inexperienced QB at #4, the franchise openly signaled that we would be developing a QB, and putting up with those growing pains. And that's where we are right now. 

[Solid84]

1 minute ago, BlackTiger said:

not a chance, its been really bad this year.  We will rack up losses and he would  be looking terrible out there.  he wont get 2 seasons of that

K, I'll bookmark this. When next years season comes around, we can revisit this and see who turned out to be right.

[BlackTiger]

6 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

K, I'll bookmark this. When next years season comes around, we can revisit this and see who turned out to be right.

Ok but the premise is that he sucks all year and all of next year too without ever getting benched.  I dont think they would do that without benching him at some point

 

Im not saying there is no chance he could play better, im saying he could sit if he is bad

[chad72]

We have to keep this in perspective that this was one of his worst games w.r.t his mechanics, IMO, that I have seen. You have to average it out over the course of the season where there will be games where his decision making and feet will show him to be more comfortable, just the law of averages.

 

So, the variability i.e. beta / risk will be higher this season and the goal is that it will be lower by the end of the season and start hitting a good floor next season, at least that is how I am reasoning with it. Jalen Hurts, despite all his sufficient starting prowess in college, still took till Year 3 to show the big jump. AR might be a better athlete than Hurts and bigger arm but Hurts started getting more accurate around Year 3, and they never shied away from Hurts' running game being an active part of the offense. AR's arm, his runs, his accuracy, Steichen's usage, ARE ALL EVOLVING.

 

The NFLPA limits what they can do at team facilities, which is a big part of these QBs seeking outside help outside the confines of the franchise facilities too for mechanics development/corrections, let us keep that in mind.

[richard pallo]

It’s sad really.  I feel bad for the rest of the team.  We averaged 30 points a game last season with Minschew.  Now we are in the teens.  This offense is easily capable of putting up 30 but is being held back by a developmental quarterback.  All we can do is hope he improves to give the team a chance at more victories.  This is a playoff team with a good quarterback.  We just have to hope he figures it out.