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Is Taylor the best player on the team?


CR91
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17 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Well the big knock on Wisconsin backs was they were overused and have too much mileage on them by the time they get to the NFL which is one of the reasons Taylor fell, but Taylor is just a freak athlete both physically and in terms of conditioning 

 

He's still early in his career. But the mileage or injury odds likely will catch up to him if we don't use him sensibly. 

A lot of RBs are freak athletes physically and conditioning wise, until they're not lol... One day prime, next day never the same.

I hated seeing us keep pounding JT late in a few games last season when the game was comfortably in hand. 

IIRC, the Texans game really irked me. 

 

With Ryan, simply no reason to not pass against mediocre or bad pass Ds. Hoping to see more balance both within individual games, and from game to game throughout the season. 

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30 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

He's still early in his career. But the mileage or injury odds likely will catch up to him if we don't use him sensibly. 

A lot of RBs are freak athletes physically and conditioning wise, until they're not lol... One day prime, next day never the same.

I hated seeing us keep pounding JT late in a few games last season when the game was comfortably in hand. 

IIRC, the Texans game really irked me. 

 

With Ryan, simply no reason to not pass against mediocre or bad pass Ds. Hoping to see more balance both within individual games, and from game to game throughout the season. 

 

Plenty of backs have had long careers into their thirties. Peterson, Gore, Emmitt, Bettis, Payton, Sanders was still going strong turning 30. 

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47 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Plenty of backs have had long careers into their thirties. Peterson, Gore, Emmitt, Bettis, Payton, Sanders was still going strong turning 30. 

Certainly. But many haven't. 

College mileage does matter in some cases. Pro usage/workload can also have an impact. 

 

I've read several articles on RB life span, fungibility, injury likelihood (based on usage), etc..

IIRC, there's the rule of 27 (or 28), and the curse of 3xx (either 350, 370, or 390, can't remember).

In short the majority of RBs peak around 27, and decline after. And whatever that number number is for the curse, Henry hit it in 2020 lol. 

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34 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Certainly. But many haven't. 

College mileage does matter in some cases. Pro usage/workload can also have an impact. 

 

I've read several articles on RB life span, fungibility, injury likelihood (based on usage), etc..

IIRC, there's the rule of 27 (or 28), and the curse of 3xx (either 350, 370, or 390, can't remember).

In short the majority of RBs peak around 27, and decline after. And whatever that number number is for the curse, Henry hit it in 2020 lol. 

 

One freak injury doesn't exactly prove Henry is on the decline. A player fell on his foot.

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*Henry's best season was 2020:

2,027 Yards, 5.4 a carry, 17 TD's, 19 Receptions 

 

*Taylor's best season was 2021 (last year)

1,811 Yards, 5.5 a carry, 18 TD's, 40 Receptions

 

*I would say pretty even but Taylor is clearly the better Receiver. He had twice as many catches. Taylor is also the better blocking back - things that don't go on the stat sheet, this is why eye test is important. I have seen him pick up numerous blitzes with blocks that would've got Rivers and Wentz drilled. 

 

*Henry is 28, Taylor 23 entering the season. At the RB position 5 years youth is a lot. It isn't the QB position where one can play until they are 39 or 40 and still be good to great.

 

*What makes Henry standout is his 2019 Post Season. Where he had 2 monster games against the Pats and Ravens on the road carrying that team to the AFC Title Game with an Above Average QB. Until we go deep in the playoffs, Henry will be looked at by the media as the better RB. Having said that I would take Taylor now because he is only 23.

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We had to run taylor a lot last season because Mack didnt want to play,Hines isnt a solid up the gut runner no matter how often we tried and Jackson was last in the NFL in ypc last season so wasnt a logical fit thus limited carries. Now we have Tyson Williams,Lindsay (Hopefully healthy) and Verdell as upgrades. Who ever emerges as the #2  standard back will relieve Taylor more then last season,how much more we shall see.

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On 6/18/2022 at 7:30 PM, RockThatBlue said:

No question he is the teams best player. The guy was putting up MVP numbers with Wentz next to him. Cant wait to see what he does with Matt Ryan (JTs numbers will probably be a little lower only cause Matt is way better than Wentz...but still will have a big year I'm sure)

 

I agree. I would take Taylor over any RB in the NFL for many reasons.  He is smart, has great vision, stays on the field, and is a great RB... And he is a class act. 

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On 6/18/2022 at 8:49 PM, Goatface Killah said:

I think it goes

 

Taylor

Leonard

Nelson

Buck

Moore

 

Confused how or why Moore gets into top 5? He was targeted and gave up more receptions than any CB in the league last year.  Sure he had a couple highlight reel plays throughout the year, but if you watch every game closely (not just SportsCenter Top 10), it seems like for every highlight reel INT he has multiple plays where he gets burnt.  @EastStreetput a nice list up a couple weeks ago showing Moore isn't top 10 in the league in terms of slot-specific CBs. All other guys you mentioned are clearly top 5 in the league specific to their position group.

 

With the addition of Gilmore, Moore clearly isn't the best player on this team within his position group.  I actually sort of expect him to be behind Facyson and perhaps I. Rodgers soon.

 

I don't disagree with your top 4 much (not entirely sure how I'd rank those guys in terms of value to team.. all 4 are at or near All-Pro level and I could entertain arguments about who is most valuable to this team all day).... but, Moore in the top 5 when he's not even the best among his position group on this team? C'mon man.. I just can't buy that.

 

5 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

*Henry's best season was 2020:

2,027 Yards, 5.4 a group, 17 TD's, 19 Receptions 

 

*Taylor's best season was 2021 (last year)

1,811 Yards, 5.5 a carry, 18 TD's, 40 Receptions

 

*I would say pretty even but Taylor is clearly the better Receiver. He had twice as many catches. Taylor is also the better blocking back - things that don't go on the stat sheet, this is why eye test is important. I have seen him pick up numerous blitzes with blocks that would've got Rivers and Wentz drilled. 

 

*Henry is 28, Taylor 23 entering the season. At the RB position 5 years youth is a lot. It isn't the QB position where one can play until they are 39 or 40 and still be good to great.

 

*What makes Henry standout is his 2019 Post Season. Where he had 2 monster games against the Pats and Ravens on the road carrying that team to the AFC Title Game with an Above Average QB. Until we go deep in the playoffs, Henry will be looked at by the media as the better RB. Having said that I would take Taylor now because he is only 23.

 

To be fair, Taylor also gets a lot more opportunities as a receiver as Reich and Vrabel run pretty different offensive schemes. 

 

I'd take Taylor, too. Because of his age and injury history... but, Taylor didn't become nfl rushing Yards leader last year until a couple weeks after Henry was sidelined due to injury. Prior to that, it looked like Henry was well on his way to becoming the NFL rushing leader again.

---

@EastStreet has a very nice post earlier in this thread.. you could spin the argument a lot of ways as we have 5 guys on this team who are top 3-5 in NFL at their position (Buckner, Gilmore, Leonard, Nelson, Taylor)... then we have a future HOF QB in Ryan...

 

I'd hate to see any of them get hurt, but just due to the nature of the position, Taylor's loss may be the easiest to overcome. 

 

I think it's pretty fair to say Aaron Donald has been the best DT in the league lately, and if he retired today he's a first-ballot HOFer who is in the argument for best IDL to ever play in the NFL.  So because Buckner maybe isn't the top in the league at his position isn't fair in the argument that Taylor is the best player on our team bc he is the best in league at his position (i.e., he's not playing in the same Era as Barry Sanders, Emmett Smith, Jim Brown, or guys who are in the alltime greatest to do it debate like Donald is at his position.. you could say, Henry had an all time great season 2 years ago and it was better than Taylor's so maybe Taylor isn't the best at his position).

 

Q., if he stays healthy, may go down as the best interior OL of all-time (1st team all-pro from rookie-year 3 and 2nd team in year 4 which was riddled with injury).  If he plays 12 years and is first-team 11 of them and 2nd team 1x, hard to say he's not the GOAT OG.

 

Leonard, he's doing stuff no LB has ever done in terms of forcing turnovers, sacks,tackles, etc..and he's also been all-pro every year he's in the league.  You could make an argument that Buckner makes his job easier, just like you could make an argument that he cleans up the little bit of Buckner mistakes very well..

 

Gilmore hasn't been in a game for us yet, but the guy has been the best CB in the league in very recent history and is still playing at a high-level.  If he neutralizes Diggs, Adams, and other very tough WR1s for us in the playoffs, he could be our defensive MVP just as easily as Buckner or Darius. 

 

Then, although he's older .. Matt Ryan was a former MVP and if he takes us to the promised land, there could be the argument that he was the MVP for pushing us over the top.. 

 

Anyways, I love Taylor and there is no other RB I'd take over him right now, but I don't think I could really peg him or any of the aforementioned guys in as our sure-fire best player right now without developing scenarios and arguments which could really put any of these guys in that spot. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Confused how or why Moore gets into top 5? He was targeted and gave up more receptions than any CB in the league last year.  Sure he had a couple highlight reel plays throughout the year, but if you watch every game closely (not just SportsCenter Top 10), it seems like for every highlight reel INT he has multiple plays where he gets burnt.  @EastStreetput a nice list up a couple weeks ago showing Moore isn't top 10 in the league in terms of slot-specific CBs. All other guys you mentioned are clearly top 5 in the league specific to their position group.

 

With the addition of Gilmore, Moore clearly isn't the best player on this team within his position group.  I actually sort of expect him to be behind Facyson and perhaps I. Rodgers soon.

 

I don't disagree with your top 4 much (not entirely sure how I'd rank those guys in terms of value to team.. all 4 are at or near All-Pro level and I could entertain arguments about who is most valuable to this team all day).... but, Moore in the top 5 when he's not even the best among his position group on this team? C'mon man.. I just can't buy that.

 

 

To be fair, Taylor also gets a lot more opportunities as a receiver as Reich and Vrabel run pretty different offensive schemes. 

 

I'd take Taylor, too. Because of his age and injury history... but, Taylor didn't become nfl rushing Yards leader last year until a couple weeks after Henry was sidelined due to injury. Prior to that, it looked like Henry was well on his way to becoming the NFL rushing leader again.

---

@EastStreet has a very nice post earlier in this thread.. you could spin the argument a lot of ways as we have 5 guys on this team who are top 3-5 in NFL at their position (Buckner, Gilmore, Leonard, Nelson, Taylor)... then we have a future HOF QB in Ryan...

 

I'd hate to see any of them get hurt, but just due to the nature of the position, Taylor's loss may be the easiest to overcome. 

 

I think it's pretty fair to say Aaron Donald has been the best DT in the league lately, and if he retired today he's a first-ballot HOFer who is in the argument for best IDL to ever play in the NFL.  So because Buckner maybe isn't the top in the league at his position isn't fair in the argument that Taylor is the best player on our team bc he is the best in league at his position (i.e., he's not playing in the same Era as Barry Sanders, Emmett Smith, Jim Brown, or guys who are in the alltime greatest to do it debate like Donald is at his position.. you could say, Henry had an all time great season 2 years ago and it was better than Taylor's so maybe Taylor isn't the best at his position).

 

Q., if he stays healthy, may go down as the best interior OL of all-time (1st team all-pro from rookie-year 3 and 2nd team in year 4 which was riddled with injury).  If he plays 12 years and is first-team 11 of them and 2nd team 1x, hard to say he's not the GOAT OG.

 

Leonard, he's doing stuff no LB has ever done in terms of forcing turnovers, sacks,tackles, etc..and he's also been all-pro every year he's in the league.  You could make an argument that Buckner makes his job easier, just like you could make an argument that he cleans up the little bit of Buckner mistakes very well..

 

Gilmore hasn't been in a game for us yet, but the guy has been the best CB in the league in very recent history and is still playing at a high-level.  If he neutralizes Diggs, Adams, and other very tough WR1s for us in the playoffs, he could be our defensive MVP just as easily as Buckner or Darius. 

 

Then, although he's older .. Matt Ryan was a former MVP and if he takes us to the promised land, there could be the argument that he was the MVP for pushing us over the top.. 

 

Anyways, I love Taylor and there is no other RB I'd take over him right now, but I don't think I could really peg him or any of the aforementioned guys in as our sure-fire best player right now without developing scenarios and arguments which could really put any of these guys in that spot. 

 

 

Because I dont value the advanced analytics the way you do and I think people dont understand them nearly as well as they think. Production is way more important to me, especially in a zone coverage system. 

 

Kenny Moore is a better player than Stephon Gilmore at this stage of his career.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Confused how or why Moore gets into top 5? He was targeted and gave up more receptions than any CB in the league last year.  Sure he had a couple highlight reel plays throughout the year, but if you watch every game closely (not just SportsCenter Top 10), it seems like for every highlight reel INT he has multiple plays where he gets burnt.  @EastStreetput a nice list up a couple weeks ago showing Moore isn't top 10 in the league in terms of slot-specific CBs. All other guys you mentioned are clearly top 5 in the league specific to their position group.

 

With the addition of Gilmore, Moore clearly isn't the best player on this team within his position group.  I actually sort of expect him to be behind Facyson and perhaps I. Rodgers soon.

 

I don't disagree with your top 4 much (not entirely sure how I'd rank those guys in terms of value to team.. all 4 are at or near All-Pro level and I could entertain arguments about who is most valuable to this team all day).... but, Moore in the top 5 when he's not even the best among his position group on this team? C'mon man.. I just can't buy that.

 

 

To be fair, Taylor also gets a lot more opportunities as a receiver as Reich and Vrabel run pretty different offensive schemes. 

 

I'd take Taylor, too. Because of his age and injury history... but, Taylor didn't become nfl rushing Yards leader last year until a couple weeks after Henry was sidelined due to injury. Prior to that, it looked like Henry was well on his way to becoming the NFL rushing leader again.

---

@EastStreet has a very nice post earlier in this thread.. you could spin the argument a lot of ways as we have 5 guys on this team who are top 3-5 in NFL at their position (Buckner, Gilmore, Leonard, Nelson, Taylor)... then we have a future HOF QB in Ryan...

 

I'd hate to see any of them get hurt, but just due to the nature of the position, Taylor's loss may be the easiest to overcome. 

 

I think it's pretty fair to say Aaron Donald has been the best DT in the league lately, and if he retired today he's a first-ballot HOFer who is in the argument for best IDL to ever play in the NFL.  So because Buckner maybe isn't the top in the league at his position isn't fair in the argument that Taylor is the best player on our team bc he is the best in league at his position (i.e., he's not playing in the same Era as Barry Sanders, Emmett Smith, Jim Brown, or guys who are in the alltime greatest to do it debate like Donald is at his position.. you could say, Henry had an all time great season 2 years ago and it was better than Taylor's so maybe Taylor isn't the best at his position).

 

Q., if he stays healthy, may go down as the best interior OL of all-time (1st team all-pro from rookie-year 3 and 2nd team in year 4 which was riddled with injury).  If he plays 12 years and is first-team 11 of them and 2nd team 1x, hard to say he's not the GOAT OG.

 

Leonard, he's doing stuff no LB has ever done in terms of forcing turnovers, sacks,tackles, etc..and he's also been all-pro every year he's in the league.  You could make an argument that Buckner makes his job easier, just like you could make an argument that he cleans up the little bit of Buckner mistakes very well..

 

Gilmore hasn't been in a game for us yet, but the guy has been the best CB in the league in very recent history and is still playing at a high-level.  If he neutralizes Diggs, Adams, and other very tough WR1s for us in the playoffs, he could be our defensive MVP just as easily as Buckner or Darius. 

 

Then, although he's older .. Matt Ryan was a former MVP and if he takes us to the promised land, there could be the argument that he was the MVP for pushing us over the top.. 

 

Anyways, I love Taylor and there is no other RB I'd take over him right now, but I don't think I could really peg him or any of the aforementioned guys in as our sure-fire best player right now without developing scenarios and arguments which could really put any of these guys in that spot. 

 

 

I had Taylor #1 simply because IMO he is the best RB in the league. Having said that losing Matt Ryan to injury would be worse (who I had 2nd) because he's the QB = most important position on the field. I had Leonard #3, Q at #4, and Buck at #5. Same 5 most have but some have them in different order.

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4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Losing Matt Ryan would ruin our season so I do get your point.

Yeah, I guess there is the teams best player and the teams most important player.   Taylor is the teams best RB but not the teams best receiver, tackler, d-lineman or field goal kicker.   Ryan is none of those either but he is the most important player on the team.

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In 2021, Taylor was the best player on the team.  On offense, it should certainly still revolve around him.  If they can't stop it, keep feeding him.  

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5 minutes ago, Myles said:

Yeah, I guess there is the teams best player and the teams most important player.   Taylor is the teams best RB but not the teams best receiver, tackler, d-lineman or field goal kicker.   Ryan is none of those either but he is the most important player on the team.

QB is/will be and has always been the most important position on the field. Taylor is our best player but is not a QB. If we lose Ryan, we might as well fold the ol' tents up. If we lose Taylor, it would be bad but Hines and RB by committee could still get us to the playoffs.

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17 minutes ago, #12. said:

In 2021, Taylor was the best player on the team.  On offense, it should certainly still revolve around him.  If they can't stop it, keep feeding him.  

I do agree, even with Ryan we should be run first considering Ryan isn't in his prime anymore. Between Taylor and Ryan we should be pretty damn good no matter how anyone slices it. I think Pittman and Hines will have huge years which will help. Nelson being 100% is important too.

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2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I had Taylor #1 simply because IMO he is the best RB in the league. Having said that losing Matt Ryan to injury would be worse (who I had 2nd) because he's the QB = most important position on the field. I had Leonard #3, Q at #4, and Buck at #5. Same 5 most have but some have them in different order.

 

I get your logic to an extent.. but here's where I lose it.. Henry was the best back in the league 2 years ago and Taylor wasn't really in a top 3 RB in league discussion. Last year, before injury, Henry was also on his way to a rushing title. As i said, I would take Taylor at this point in their careers, but had Henry not been hurt last year, if he won the rushing title again, I don't think anyone confidently says JT is a better back. JT, because DH got hurt, has widely been considered the best back in the league after last year.. but look at the numbers other backs put up - that's not a product of the league having bad backs, its a product also of no other team in the NFL ran as much as us AND there are no Barry Sanders' or other all-time greats in the league right now with the exception of maybe Henry (and his best season was > than Jt's best).

 

What Aaron Donald is doing at IDL is absurd. He will go down as the most dominant IDL in NFL history. Is he a better IDL than Buckner? Probably, but he's also a better IDL than pretty much any other to have ever played in the NFL. Remove AD and Buckner is easily in the convo as the best IDL in the current NFL. And Buckners been up there for several years now. 

 

Similarly, add Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, etc. to the NFL today and JT likely is no longer in the convo as the best at his position. And JT has only had 1 very good year.  Once Henry got hurt, JT isn't playing in a league with any RBs that are once in a generation talents (like Buckner has with AD).

 

Because of that, I'm a bit skeptical about putting much weight into 'because JT is the best at his position in the league, he's the best overall player on our team."  The RB position in today's NFL is far from the most talented position group.. like if McAfee was still here, I doubt we'd be saying "because he is the best player in the league at his position, he's the best player on our team by default." 

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16 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

One freak injury doesn't exactly prove Henry is on the decline. A player fell on his foot.

Nope, it doesn't. But injury was bound to happen, freak or not, given his high use. 

Hope he comes back strong as the league is better when he's playing well. 

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On 6/19/2022 at 3:45 PM, JTfan said:

 

Indianapolis pass blocking was 23rd (Tenn 29th), run blocking was 9th (Tenn 10th)

 

Quote from PFF

 

"The Colts ranked 30th as a unit in pass-blocking efficiency, but they dominated as a run-blocking group, helping pave the way for Jonathan Taylor to lead the league in rushing."

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