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Is Taylor the best player on the team?


CR91
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For the longest time the discussion was either Nelson or Leonard, but now you can make the argument it's Taylor. I still think a fully healthy Leonard is the best player. Even with a bum ankle, he was easily our best defensive player with his ability to create turnovers.

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No question he is the teams best player. The guy was putting up MVP numbers with Wentz next to him. Cant wait to see what he does with Matt Ryan (JTs numbers will probably be a little lower only cause Matt is way better than Wentz...but still will have a big year I'm sure)

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I'm eager to see how they use Taylor out of the backfield now that they have a vet QB who can get through reads.  Taylor might benefit quite a bit from Ryan's addition in the pass game.  I hope so at least.

 

 

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I think Taylor is the best on the team because he is #1 in the NFL at his position without much doubt. Q can be argued is the best Guard but other Guards are in the convo, same for Leonard but not many would suggest any rb is better then Taylor,certainly isnt Henry and C McC is coming off injury.....so...

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1 minute ago, holeymoley99 said:

I think Taylor is the best on the team because he is #1 in the NFL at his position without much doubt. Q can be argued is the best Guard but other Guards are in the convo, same for Leonard but not many would suggest any rb is better then Taylor,certainly isnt Henry and C McC is coming off injury.....so...

I love Taylor as much as the next guy, but until I see Henry start to fade, he is still the best rb.

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Just now, Chucklez said:

I love Taylor as much as the next guy, but until I see Henry start to fade, he is still the best rb.

Taylor avg 5.5 yards a carry....Henry avg 4.3....sorry but we arent talking about .1,.2 even .5 it's 1.2 per carry ever carry.....thats over 20% more per carry.....its not close currently.

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20 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

I think Taylor is the best on the team because he is #1 in the NFL at his position without much doubt. Q can be argued is the best Guard but other Guards are in the convo, same for Leonard but not many would suggest any rb is better then Taylor,certainly isnt Henry and C McC is coming off injury.....so...

 

yu can like who yu like but to say taylor is undisputed the best w/out doubt is non sense 

 

i love taylor but rbs are flavors so what 1 offense/play caller needs another might not prefer. Kamara is probably the best of both blends of power, agility, receiving threat with Henry being on the other end of the spectrum. 

 

Each have their pros n cons but they're all en the same realm just depends what yu need

 

taylor 

cmc

henry 

kamara 

cook 

ekeler 

fournette

mixon 

harris 

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I understand why most would think JT is the best on our team. I will say he had the biggest impact last year.  Still, Leonard played lights out. 4ints and 8 forced fumbles.  Q is fantasic and everyone sleeps on Braden Smith. Buckner is extremely capable as well. 
 

However, I think Matt Ryan is the Colts best player. 

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6 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

I understand why most would think JT is the best on our team. I will say he had the biggest impact last year.  Still, Leonard played lights out. 4ints and 8 forced fumbles.  Q is fantasic and everyone sleeps on Braden Smith. Buckner is extremely capable as well. 
 

However, I think Matt Ryan is the Colts best player. 

 

If this was prime Matt Ryan you'd have an argument, but this 37 year old Matt Ryan

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47 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

Taylor avg 5.5 yards a carry....Henry avg 4.3....sorry but we arent talking about .1,.2 even .5 it's 1.2 per carry ever carry.....thats over 20% more per carry.....its not close currently.

I think Henry would he over 5 if he ran behind our OL.

 

I still prefer Taylor, but its closer than you suggest.

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Honestly….   I don’t care.  
 

Whatever the order, I like having 4 top 100 players.   Deciding who is the best is a nice problem to have.   Plenty of other teams would love to have this kind of debate among their fans.   Our roster is good to very good and getting better.   I think we have a good future in the near term. 

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He's probably the best at his position (right now). Given his age and health profile, probably the most "peaked" player on the roster.

 

The impact of losing him vs the impact of losing other key players (like Leonard or others) though, is very debatable. 

 

And RB is one of the more fungible positions. Rams won the SB last with a RB by committee and no RB over 1000 yards. 

 

"Best" is vague and subjective. So most talented at position, probably. Best in terms of most impactful, most valuable, least replaceable, etc. to the team, very debatable. 

 

He's awesome though, no doubt. I'm going to enjoy the ride while on he's healthy and on his cheap rook deal. 

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JT is imho one of the best young RB's the colts havehaha

 

But seriously, he's the most impactful player for the colts. Though matty ice plays the most important position, at this point in his career he'll probably be more game manager in most games especially with  the lack of proven high end talent at WR & TE, making us more dependent on our running game. 

And Taylor can be more IMPACTFUL player than a LB, DT, or G.....that is of course if our HC doesn't ignore giving him the ball for 26 consecutive offensive plays. :funny:

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10 hours ago, Goatface Killah said:

I think Henry would he over 5 if he ran behind our OL.

 

I still prefer Taylor, but its closer than you suggest.

Colts running blocking win rate in 2021 was 72% while Tenn was 69% so the odds if Henry having the 18% jump in ypc you propose while seeing just 2% better blocking doesnt appear to be very realistic stat wise.

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14 hours ago, CR91 said:

For the longest time the discussion was either Nelson or Leonard, but now you can make the argument it's Taylor. I still think a fully healthy Leonard is the best player. Even with a bum ankle, he was easily our best defensive player with his ability to create turnovers.

Yes, Taylor is. Top RB in the league last year. Problem is, he plays a position where historically that success is rather short lived. So we need to capitalize NOW. I hope with Ryan we can get it done. 

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40 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

Colts running blocking win rate in 2021 was 72% while Tenn was 69% so the odds if Henry having the 18% jump in ypc you propose while seeing just 2% better blocking doesnt appear to be very realistic stat wise.

 

 

RBWR is really not a great metric to look at for team level performance IMO. #1 is 75%, #32 is 65% (10pt delta). But most teams are between 73% and 68%. That's a really small delta, so 3pts is actually 30% better if you look at the entire 10pt span, or 60% better if you normalize. And Indy was #7 overall, while TN was #24.... 

 

IMO, it's best to look at top individual performers at T, G, and C. Titans had nobody in the top 10 last season. And even then, still not perfect. We had Smith in the top 10, but normally Nelson would be there topping almost everyone in the league. But last season is really not a the best year to look at it due to injuries on both teams, not to mention Henry's injury situation which is a big factor in and of itself. 

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17 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

 

RBWR is really not a great metric to look at for team level performance IMO. #1 is 75%, #32 is 65% (10pt delta). But most teams are between 73% and 68%. That's a really small delta, so 3pts is actually 30% better if you look at the entire 10pt span, or 60% better if you normalize. And Indy was #7 overall, while TN was #24.... 

 

IMO, it's best to look at top individual performers at T, G, and C. Titans had nobody in the top 10 last season. And even then, still not perfect. We had Smith in the top 10, but normally Nelson would be there topping almost everyone in the league. But last season is really not a the best year to look at it due to injuries on both teams, not to mention Henry's injury situation which is a big factor in and of itself. 

We can look at their careers as a whole as well and can include receptions numbers.....

Henry 4.9 ypc and Taylor 5.3 ypc...

Henry ypg   79.0   Taylor 93.1

 

Henry 9.8 rec yards a game.....Taylor 20.6......

Henry 75.2 rec %    Taylor  84.4

Henry 86-68 total tds...Taylor 32 games-32 total tds

 

If we are talking right now it's Taylor hands down based on last season, if talking body of work per career per season again Taylor. Not even including runs over 20 yards (big runs,no need but again Taylor big).

 

Colts O line was banged up last year, with a healthy Q and Pinter added to the line we may see a bigger jump in ypc and with Ryan better rec numbers as well. The disparity between the two likely grows not shrinks in the future.

 

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36 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

We can look at their careers as a whole as well and can include receptions numbers.....

Henry 4.9 ypc and Taylor 5.3 ypc...

Henry ypg   79.0   Taylor 93.1

 

Henry 9.8 rec yards a game.....Taylor 20.6......

Henry 75.2 rec %    Taylor  84.4

Henry 86-68 total tds...Taylor 32 games-32 total tds

 

If we are talking right now it's Taylor hands down based on last season, if talking body of work per career per season again Taylor. Not even including runs over 20 yards (big runs,no need but again Taylor big).

 

Colts O line was banged up last year, with a healthy Q and Pinter added to the line we may see a bigger jump in ypc and with Ryan better rec numbers as well. The disparity between the two likely grows not shrinks in the future.

 

 

I'd take JT over Henry easily in the here and now, but I think you're ignoring context. Indy has had superior OLs. Even last season which was a down year for Indy's OL, we still graded out better than TN. And overall, even though our pass pro was 30th ranked, our overall OL rank was 12, meaning our run blocking rank was more than likely top 3 or top 5 at min. Even Fisher, who was horrible in pass pro, was very solid in run blocking. 

 

Given Henry's injury situation, not sure he'll ever get back to his old self. But his 2020 was better than anything Taylor has done so far. And that was with an inferior OL compared to either of JT's years.

 

You could make a strong case also Henry made his OL grade better, while our OL has really graded near elite in run blocking for a while now (even with Mack). And until last season, Henry's broken tackle % was better.

 

But the biggest factor you've overlooked is the stack box carry rate. If you look at JT's two seasons, he's ranked 27th and 31st in stacked carry %. Over that same period, Henry on the other hand saw some of the highest stacked box rates (4th and 12th). This means teams loaded the box and keyed on Henry at a high rate, while not really focusing on stopping JT. I'm guessing that could chance this season lol... 

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5 hours ago, holeymoley99 said:

Colts running blocking win rate in 2021 was 72% while Tenn was 69% so the odds if Henry having the 18% jump in ypc you propose while seeing just 2% better blocking doesnt appear to be very realistic stat wise.

I dont think win rate is a good way to project that on its own. 

 

The YPC was as high as it was for Taylor because he had a lot of long runs last year. So its not just about win rate as much as creating huge plays in the run game, which our line was exceptionally good at. Not all "wins" are created equal. Some wins produce 4 yards. Some produce 70 yards.

 

There is no reason to think Henry couldnt do similar things if given the same opportunities. 

 

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1 hour ago, Goatface Killah said:

I dont think win rate is a good way to project that on its own. 

 

The YPC was as high as it was for Taylor because he had a lot of long runs last year. So its not just about win rate as much as creating huge plays in the run game, which our line was exceptionally good at. Not all "wins" are created equal. Some wins produce 4 yards. Some produce 70 yards.

 

There is no reason to think Henry couldnt do similar things if given the same opportunities. 

 

The long runs Taylor had are a big part of the reason he is a superior talent to Henry, some arguments say take away the long runs and taylor's avg comes back to Henry because Henry rarely get the long runs...BUT that is exactly why taylor is better, he has a league best 20 plus runs he has vision to hit the holes and explode through them it is unfair to remove the big runs.

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This is a tough question because you have to go by importance of position, QB is the most important position on the field and we a good one now (an all-time top 25 great). Having said that, Taylor is the best RB in the league so I would say:

 

1. Taylor - he is our best player

 

2. Matt Ryan

 

3. Leonard - the way he creates Turnovers is almost something I have never seen. Top 3 at his position.

 

4. Nelson - our O.Line can play good without him for a game or 2 but in the long run it would be inconsistent without him. He makes our O.Line top 5 in the league when healthy.

 

5. Buckner - Top 3 at his position. 

 

-in that order

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5 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

I'd take JT over Henry easily in the here and now, but I think you're ignoring context. Indy has had superior OLs. Even last season which was a down year for Indy's OL, we still graded out better than TN. And overall, even though our pass pro was 30th ranked, our overall OL rank was 12, meaning our run blocking rank was more than likely top 3 or top 5 at min. Even Fisher, who was horrible in pass pro, was very solid in run blocking. 

 

Given Henry's injury situation, not sure he'll ever get back to his old self. But his 2020 was better than anything Taylor has done so far. And that was with an inferior OL compared to either of JT's years.

 

You could make a strong case also Henry made his OL grade better, while our OL has really graded near elite in run blocking for a while now (even with Mack). And until last season, Henry's broken tackle % was better.

 

But the biggest factor you've overlooked is the stack box carry rate. If you look at JT's two seasons, he's ranked 27th and 31st in stacked carry %. Over that same period, Henry on the other hand saw some of the highest stacked box rates (4th and 12th). This means teams loaded the box and keyed on Henry at a high rate, while not really focusing on stopping JT. I'm guessing that could chance this season lol... 

 

Indianapolis pass blocking was 23rd (Tenn 29th), run blocking was 9th (Tenn 10th)

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2 hours ago, holeymoley99 said:

The long runs Taylor had are a big part of the reason he is a superior talent to Henry, some arguments say take away the long runs and taylor's avg comes back to Henry because Henry rarely get the long runs...BUT that is exactly why taylor is better, he has a league best 20 plus runs he has vision to hit the holes and explode through them it is unfair to remove the big runs.

To be fair sometimes the holes are so huge ray charles could find them.

 

ive seen Henry break long runs quite a bit.

 

Also, I said I prefer JT also but I think you are forgetting how good Henry is. You put him behind Nelson I think hed be just fine. I mean he got 2k without him. 

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2 hours ago, holeymoley99 said:

The long runs Taylor had are a big part of the reason he is a superior talent to Henry, some arguments say take away the long runs and taylor's avg comes back to Henry because Henry rarely get the long runs...BUT that is exactly why taylor is better, he has a league best 20 plus runs he has vision to hit the holes and explode through them it is unfair to remove the big runs.

I didnt say take the runs away.

 

I said put Henry behind our line and he would get more long runs and close that gap.

 

You are being very disrepectful to Derrick Henry man. The dude is an all time great running back. Thats not a knock on Taylor to say that.

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2 hours ago, Goatface Killah said:

I didnt say take the runs away.

 

I said put Henry behind our line and he would get more long runs and close that gap.

 

You are being very disrepectful to Derrick Henry man. The dude is an all time great running back. Thats not a knock on Taylor to say that.

It's not disrespectful to Henry,taylor is simply better the numbers show it clearly. One could say it is disrespectful to Taylor to say a player with much lesser stats is a better player because IF their line was better they may have similar numbers. Taylor has only been in the league 2 seasons and already has had a better ypc season then Henry's had in his entire career, again better td per game avg,much better rec ypg and much higher catch %. There is nothing Henry has on JT.

 

Taylor was the most prolific back in NCAA history (More yards per season average then any player in history....). It is no surprise he has becomes the NFL's best back so quickly either. There are many good backs in the NFL Chubb,Mixon,Kamara,C Mc,Cook....there is but 1 JT and we are very very fortunate to have him.....

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30 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

It's not disrespectful to Henry,taylor is simply better the numbers show it clearly. One could say it is disrespectful to Taylor to say a player with much lesser stats is a better player because IF their line was better they may have similar numbers. Taylor has only been in the league 2 seasons and already has had a better ypc season then Henry's had in his entire career, again better td per game avg,much better rec ypg and much higher catch %. There is nothing Henry has on JT.

 

Taylor was the most prolific back in NCAA history (More yards per season average then any player in history....). It is no surprise he has becomes the NFL's best back so quickly either. There are many good backs in the NFL Chubb,Mixon,Kamara,C Mc,Cook....there is but 1 JT and we are very very fortunate to have him.....

 

Like I said, I'd absolutely take JT easily over Henry in the here and now.

 

But you ignore pretty basic things

  • The last two years when both played, Henry faced a much higher stacked box rate (4th and 12th most), while JT faced some of the lowest stacked box rates (27th and 31st).
  • To add to the first bullet and compounding it, our OL has been clearly better the last two years (better since 2018 actually).
    • JT's YBC (yards before contact) averaged 2.8 yards the last two seasons, while Henry didn't get near the room (2.3 average). Half a yard difference on average is pretty big (20+% better)
    • The year Henry got his best YBC from the OL (2020), he got 2000+ yards that season, which only 2 RBs have done in the last 20 years. He also was number 1 in breakaway runs that season (2020). JT had more YBC cushion both seasons, and interestingly enough, he was #1 in breakaways last season. 
  • Henry's broken tackle rate is clearly better than JTs until 

 

Regardless, JT has had the better start. But has had some luxuries Henry didn't. It's not really cut and dry like the picture you paint. If JT has 2000+ in a season the next 3 years and his broken tackle rate improves, it's a much easier conversation. Personally though, I hope they put JT on a pitch count unless we really need him. I don't want to run the tread off the tires like TN did to Henry. 

 

And yes, JT had an amazing career at Wiscy. But I'll point out that Henry was behind Drake and Yeldon coming in to Bama sos didn't get near the opportunity JT did coming in to Wiscy. Wiscy wasn't nearly as stacked depth wise. And in Henry's last season though, he had more yards than JT ever had in a college season.

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1 hour ago, holeymoley99 said:

It's not disrespectful to Henry,taylor is simply better the numbers show it clearly. One could say it is disrespectful to Taylor to say a player with much lesser stats is a better player because IF their line was better they may have similar numbers. Taylor has only been in the league 2 seasons and already has had a better ypc season then Henry's had in his entire career, again better td per game avg,much better rec ypg and much higher catch %. There is nothing Henry has on JT.

 

Taylor was the most prolific back in NCAA history (More yards per season average then any player in history....). It is no surprise he has becomes the NFL's best back so quickly either. There are many good backs in the NFL Chubb,Mixon,Kamara,C Mc,Cook....there is but 1 JT and we are very very fortunate to have him.....

I didnt say that Henry was better than Taylor.

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48 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Like I said, I'd absolutely take JT easily over Henry in the here and now.

 

But you ignore pretty basic things

  • The last two years when both played, Henry faced a much higher stacked box rate (4th and 12th most), while JT faced some of the lowest stacked box rates (27th and 31st).
  • To add to the first bullet and compounding it, our OL has been clearly better the last two years (better since 2018 actually).
    • JT's YBC (yards before contact) averaged 2.8 yards the last two seasons, while Henry didn't get near the room (2.3 average). Half a yard difference on average is pretty big (20+% better)
    • The year Henry got his best YBC from the OL (2020), he got 2000+ yards that season, which only 2 RBs have done in the last 20 years. He also was number 1 in breakaway runs that season (2020). JT had more YBC cushion both seasons, and interestingly enough, he was #1 in breakaways last season. 
  • Henry's broken tackle rate is clearly better than JTs until 

 

Regardless, JT has had the better start. But has had some luxuries Henry didn't. It's not really cut and dry like the picture you paint. If JT has 2000+ in a season the next 3 years and his broken tackle rate improves, it's a much easier conversation. Personally though, I hope they put JT on a pitch count unless we really need him. I don't want to run the tread off the tires like TN did to Henry. 

 

And yes, JT had an amazing career at Wiscy. But I'll point out that Henry was behind Drake and Yeldon coming in to Bama sos didn't get near the opportunity JT did coming in to Wiscy. Wiscy wasn't nearly as stacked depth wise. And in Henry's last season though, he had more yards than JT ever had in a college season.

Henry had many more carries to get the yards in 2015, for that season he avg 5.6 ypc, Taylor never avg less then 6.3 in any season and for their college careers JT avg .7 more per carry which is quite significant. Both had solid O line and both played higher caliber competition so it was pretty much a wash there.

 

I agree I dont want us to run him into the ground , his overall yards may well go down but his ypc may well go up as well as his rec yards. His ypc (5.3) is the 3rd best in nfl history currently behind Marion Motley and Jamal Charles and he could move to 2 on that list by the end of the season. We are talking rare air here.

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50 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

Henry had many more carries to get the yards in 2015, for that season he avg 5.6 ypc, Taylor never avg less then 6.3 in any season and for their college careers JT avg .7 more per carry which is quite significant. Both had solid O line and both played higher caliber competition so it was pretty much a wash there.

 

I agree I dont want us to run him into the ground , his overall yards may well go down but his ypc may well go up as well as his rec yards. His ypc (5.3) is the 3rd best in nfl history currently behind Marion Motley and Jamal Charles and he could move to 2 on that list by the end of the season. We are talking rare air here.

 

Please don't compare the B10 West to the SEC West lol. It's not remotely close in terms of level of schedule competition, or level of recruiting competition to get snaps. Alabama's SoS averages top 3 easily if not top 2 over the last 10 years. Wiscy's SoS sometimes is good, but sometimes doesn't even make the top 25. The delta in recruiting talent (Wisc vs Bama, and SECW vs B10W) is likely even a larger gap than SoS. Wiscy has been great over the years with OL and RBs no doubt. But the B10W is not really known for run stopping D on the big stage. 

 

He had a remarkable year last season. Let's see how it goes the next 3-4 years. I would love to say he's undoubtedly the best (he was last season) and he's the best over the last XX years. But it's simply early. 

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24 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Please don't compare the B10 West to the SEC West lol. It's not remotely close in terms of level of schedule competition, or level of recruiting competition to get snaps. Alabama's SoS averages top 3 easily if not top 2 over the last 10 years. Wiscy's SoS sometimes is good, but sometimes doesn't even make the top 25. The delta in recruiting talent (Wisc vs Bama, and SECW vs B10W) is likely even a larger gap than SoS. Wiscy has been great over the years with OL and RBs no doubt. But the B10W is not really known for run stopping D on the big stage. 

 

He had a remarkable year last season. Let's see how it goes the next 3-4 years. I would love to say he's undoubtedly the best (he was last season) and he's the best over the last XX years. But it's simply early. 

 

Yea, but Taylor was basically the only good player Wisconsin had. Everyone knew he was getting the ball and still put up 2000 yard seasons 

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16 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Yea, but Taylor was basically the only good player Wisconsin had. Everyone knew he was getting the ball and still put up 2000 yard seasons 

 

Wisconsin has always been known for putting OL into the NFL. Pretty sure ESPN ranked them #1 or #2 in terms of being "OL U".

During JT's days there, they had great OLs. I'm pretty sure they were ranked #1 in the nation either his last or second to last season. They put OL into the NFL just about every year. There was a OG that I was hoping might fall into the 4th or 5th that I liked from Wiscy. Didn't fall enough for us to have a shot. 

 

And overall looking at the B10W, it's just not a good conference from year to year. The B10E with OSU, PSU, and Michigan (now good again) is a different story. But the B10W is just not known for being good, or having great D. So you kind of expect Wiscy to do well every year rushing. And Wiscy's scheme has been pretty unique in the way they use the OL and 2 back sets. 

 

Fun fact, Wiscy has been known a long time for putting OL, TE, and RBs into the league. 

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11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Wisconsin has always been known for putting OL into the NFL. Pretty sure ESPN ranked them #1 or #2 in terms of being "OL U".

During JT's days there, they had great OLs. I'm pretty sure they were ranked #1 in the nation either his last or second to last season. They put OL into the NFL just about every year. There was a OG that I was hoping might fall into the 4th or 5th that I liked from Wiscy. Didn't fall enough for us to have a shot. 

 

And overall looking at the B10W, it's just not a good conference from year to year. The B10E with OSU, PSU, and Michigan (now good again) is a different story. But the B10W is just not known for being good, or having great D. So you kind of expect Wiscy to do well every year rushing. And Wiscy's scheme has been pretty unique in the way they use the OL and 2 back sets. 

 

Fun fact, Wiscy has been known a long time for putting OL, TE, and RBs into the league. 

 

I'm not comparing the SEC to the big ten. I'm just giving Taylor his due. He put Wisconsin on his back

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2 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

I'm not comparing the SEC to the big ten. I'm just giving Taylor his due. He put Wisconsin on his back

 

Like I said, Wiscy is frequently called OL "U", TE "U", and RB "U". 

They've been a throw back run first team for a good long while. 

They've churned out some great RBs over the years. I think Wiscy folks still hold Ron Dayne as their GOAT. 

I like Taylor the best, especially in the sense of the new age RBs. 

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3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Like I said, Wiscy is frequently called OL "U", TE "U", and RB "U". 

They've been a throw back run first team for a good long while. 

They've churned out some great RBs over the years. I think Wiscy folks still hold Ron Dayne as their GOAT. 

I like Taylor the best, especially in the sense of the new age RBs. 

 

Well the big knock on Wisconsin backs was they were overused and have too much mileage on them by the time they get to the NFL which is one of the reasons Taylor fell, but Taylor is just a freak athlete both physically and in terms of conditioning 

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