Lombardi: Colts Will Try To Keep Manning

[FireJimCaldwell]

Gotcha Cleveland but what would the Colts be on the hook for if the Colts decided to pay the option and later in the season he had to suddenly retire?

Yes. They would likely place him on IR, and then formally put him on the retirement list after the season.

[FireJimCaldwell]

So correct me if i'm wrong. If the option bonus is not picked up (manning cut), we are on the cap for this year and this year alone.

That would be correct. For it to have any affect on 2013, he would have to sign a new deal.

[JoKeR]

Say the bonus is paid.. he plays 2012 flawlessly.

2013 he suffers another injury and is placed on IR and is forced to retire after 2013. The 2014/15 salaries aren't paid, but the unamoritized bonus dollars would accelerate into the 2014 cap.

Ok that's what I was looking for. Sudden retirement = cap Armageddon

[LUVTHESHOE]

I am with you brother!!!!!!!!!!!! :ashamed: For an organization based on class this whole thing has been a joke!!!! My hope is we keep Peyton.

Name one thing that this organization has done to lose the class label. Some of you just don't seem to get the fact that there are tough decisions to be made here. If the wrong decisions are made it could set this franchise back years. So if doing due diligence is classless, then you are correct in slapping that classless label on them.In my opinion nothing has changed, classy as ever regardless of how this ends.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Ok that's what I was looking for. Sudden retirement = cap Armageddon

For the most part yes... Even then, there are ways to attempt to lighten the hit.

[JWF]

I dont see how Lombardi thinks its not a cap issue when the Colts will be essentially locking into the original deal along with paying the bonus. Its a cap issue no matter how you slice it.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I dont see how Lombardi thinks its not a cap issue when the Colts will be essentially locking into the original deal along with paying the bonus. Its a cap issue no matter how you slice it.

I think his mistake of 16 without vs. 17 with is making him think that. 1 million dollars isn't much of a difference in that case, but the biggest part is that the option bonus creates even more cap issues later on unless he plays out the contract.

[JoKeR]

For the most part yes...

So for that reason alone Manning will have to restructure/resign. Lombardi should focus more on this or atleast be aware of it. Its not all about paying the 28million, its about replacing a potentially dangerous contract.

[UndecidedFrog]

I think his mistake of 16 without vs. 17 with is making him think that. 1 million dollars isn't much of a difference in that case, but the biggest part is that the option bonus creates even more cap issues later on unless he plays out the contract.

Yes, and to fully illustrate what Joker's cap armageddon looks like:

If the option bonus is paid, and PM is cut or retires before June 1, 2012, the 2012 cap will be hit $38.4MM

If the option bonus is paid, and PM is cut or retires before June 1, 2013, the 2013 cap will be hit $28.8MM

If the option bonus is paid, and PM is cut or retires before June 1, 2014, the 2014 cap will be hit $19.2MM

If the option bonus is paid, and PM is cut or retires before June 1, 2015, the 2015 cap will be hit $9.6MM

It is getting so, that I will have these numbers memorized soon enough.

[FireJimCaldwell]

So for that reason alone Manning will have to restructure/resign. Lombardi should focus more on this or atleast be aware of it. Its not all about paying the 28million, its about replacing a potentially dangerous contract.

That's a good way of looking at it.

The contract combined with the neck/arm gives it much more risk unless he plays out the contract then it will likely be the value based contract that many thought(outside of last year).

Andrew Brandt has still had the best write up on it in his 4 part series.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-1.html

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-2.html

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-3.html

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-4.html

[Restored]

Couldn't they re-negotiate the deal down the road say after this coming season if they decided to go ahead and do the orginal contract deal (Though highly unlikely).

[FireJimCaldwell]

Yes, and to fully illustrate what Joker's cap armageddon looks like:

If the option bonus is paid, and PM is cut or retires before June 1, 2012, the 2012 cap will be hit $38.4MM

If the option bonus is paid, and PM is cut or retires before June 1, 2013, the 2013 cap will be hit $28.8MM

If the option bonus is paid, and PM is cut or retires before June 1, 2014, the 2014 cap will be hit $19.2MM

If the option bonus is paid, and PM is cut or retires before June 1, 2015, the 2015 cap will be hit $9.6MM

It is getting so, that I will have these numbers memorized soon enough.

I'm sure... I just hope you're copying and pasting

This seems like a good place for the chart my brother and threw together.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Couldn't they re-negotiate the deal down the road say after this coming season if they decided to go ahead and do the orginal contract deal (Though highly unlikely).

Parts of it can be.. Such as lowering of a base salary. But when the Signing Bonus and Option bonus are set in stone, then the cap ramifications of him not being on the roster at any point in time are set in stone.

[Restored]

Parts of it can be.. Such as lowering of a base salary. But when the Signing Bonus and Option bonus are set in stone, then the cap ramifications of him not being on the roster at any point in time are set in stone.

If that's the case, I think you have to renegotiate parts of the deal then. Heck if Peyton opts to retire in 2014, we get hit in 2015.

[FireJimCaldwell]

If that's the case, I think you have to renegotiate parts of the deal then. Heck if Peyton opts to retire in 2014, we get hit in 2015.

What would he renegotiate at that point? The only thing he could do is lower his base salary. It won't affect the cap ramifications if he were forced to retire. The base salaries go away when he's not on the roster.

[Coltswarriors]

This is crazy... I'd still like to keep Manning, but I hope we can restructure his contract.

[Restored]

What would renegotiate at that point? The only he could do is lower his base salary. It won't affect the cap ramifications if he were forced to retire. The base salaries go away when he's not on the roster.

I mean you have to renegotiate the current deal and see if we can work around that bonus locking up the remaining 4 years. This is too confusing lol I can't wait till this is over!

[FireJimCaldwell]

I mean you have to renegotiate the current deal and see if we can work around that bonus locking up the remaining 4 years. This is too confusing lol I can't wait till this is over!

There is still a difference of opinion on whether that could even be done at this point. I thought you were talking about renegotiating it after paying the 28 million. He could then lower his base salaries to league minimums which would help in those years, but if he were cut/traded there are the same penalties in place if he didn't touch the base salaries.

It can be complicated.

[Restored]

There is still a difference of opinion on whether that could even be done at this point. I thought you were talking about renegotiating it after paying the 28 million. He could then lower his base salaries to league minimums which would help in those years, but if he were cut/traded there are the same penalties in place if he didn't touch the base salaries.

It can be complicated.

I mean Polian said it can be done (before the deadline) as well as others. If they believe it can be restructured and negotiated, I think it can get done.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I mean Polian said it can be done (before the deadline) as well as others. If they believe it can be restructured and negotiated, I think it can get done.

Time will tell. If it doesn't happen, that doesn't mean it couldn't have. Both sides would have to agree to terms. Since the bonus is due and accounted for in 2011, I don't see how it can be altered at this point, but that might just be my interpretation of the language.

Time will tell.

[jvan1973]

IMO it was a terrible contract for the team even if Peyton was healthy last year. I wonder how much BP had to do with it, or if Irsay thought it was a good idea to have 54 mill in bonuses within the first 8 months of the contract?

[jskinnz]

I think this is to the point where the only way Manning comes back to the Colts is if Irsay has a bout of emotionitis and makes an irrational decision. The best thing and lowest risk to the team is if Manning and the team just part ways. When Manning signed his deal that was unimaginable. Now if anyone truly analyzes it without emotion, it is the only move the team can make. And the only move for Manning as well.

Lombardi I think is just simply wrong.

[FireJimCaldwell]

IMO it was a terrible contract for the team even if Peyton was healthy last year. I wonder how much BP had to do with it, or if Irsay thought it was a good idea to have 54 mill in bonuses within the first 8 months of the contract?

One alternative was a 48 million signing bonus, which would put us in a much worse spot than we are now.

From my understanding. Manning wasn't happy with the speed that Polian/Condon were going at it. He knew that the franchise tag was hampering the signing on Addai/AV/CJ and others.

He and Irsay met. worked it out and had Polian/Condon clean it up... Manning was the one that insisted on the split bonus payments, just in case he wasn't able to return.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Name one thing that this organization has done to lose the class label. Some of you just don't seem to get the fact that there are tough decisions to be made here. If the wrong decisions are made it could set this franchise back years. So if doing due diligence is classless, then you are correct in slapping that classless label on them.In my opinion nothing has changed, classy as ever regardless of how this ends.

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, but honestly DUE DILIGENCE in my opinion IS OVER. GET THE THING DONE! Irsay knows what he is going to do NOW! He knows Peyton can throw, he knows he is going to play, we are talking about 1 of the greatest QB of all time, change the deal to a deal that covers the teams butt period! If Peyton doesn't want to do a cap[ friendly deal than cut him, shut up all the broadcasters & talk show guys & take the BIG TOP OFF THIS CIRCUS. Just how I see it!

[RowdyB]

First question. What would prevent the Colts from paying the bonus then restructuring the remainder of the contract prior to the start of next season? I realize they can't do so prior to the start of the league calendar year under the current CBA (which necessitates them paying the bonus), but it is a viable option if Manning were willing to do so, no?

Another question. Even if the Colts did opt out in hopes of bidding for him going forward, wouldn't an incentive laden deal still hit the cap for the total of his base salary + incentives? Just curious.

[LUVTHESHOE]

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, but honestly DUE DILIGENCE in my opinion IS OVER. GET THE THING DONE! Irsay knows what he is going to do NOW! He knows Peyton can throw, he knows he is going to play, we are talking about 1 of the greatest QB of all time, change the deal to a deal that covers the teams butt period! If Peyton doesn't want to do a cap[ friendly deal than cut him, shut up all the broadcasters & talk show guys & take the BIG TOP OFF THIS CIRCUS. Just how I see it!

I agree with most of what you are saying. I just feel that this team always been run on the high side of the class line.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

I think this is to the point where the only way Manning comes back to the Colts is if Irsay has a bout of emotionitis and makes an irrational decision. The best thing and lowest risk to the team is if Manning and the team just part ways. When Manning signed his deal that was unimaginable. Now if anyone truly analyzes it without emotion, it is the only move the team can make. And the only move for Manning as well.

Lombardi I think is just simply wrong.

I hear you, but did NO ONE think about this contract BEFORE IT WAS SIGNED? Irsay wanted to make Peyton the HIGHEST PAID PLAYER "hes own words" & now it is biting him in the butt. He, I would have to believe signed off on the deal!

[FireJimCaldwell]

First question. What would prevent the Colts from paying the bonus then restructuring the remainder of the contract prior to the start of next season? I realize they can't do so prior to the start of the league calendar year under the current CBA (which necessitates them paying the bonus), but it is a viable option if Manning were willing to do so, no?

Another question. Even if the Colts did opt out in hopes of bidding for him going forward, wouldn't an incentive laden deal still hit the cap for the total of his base salary + incentives? Just curious.

Q1: They can restructure it at that point but they are limited in adjusting base salaries at that point. They can't do anything to alter the cap ramifications if he were to leave the roster at x. His base salaries are:

2012 $7,400,000.00
2013 $8,400,000.00  
2014 $9,400,000.00  
2015 $10,400,000.00

Lowering those has nothing to do with what happens to the cap if he's cut/traded/retires. It only affects the given year they are earned, but they could alter those once the new league year starts.

Q2: Any dollar spent will hit the cap one way or another and some point in time. So yes the base salary/incentives would hit the cap. When the incentives hit, is calculated differently depending on the incentive.

[Andy]

Another good positive step towards resigning our star. They want him, which erases any thoughts of not wanting him.

[RowdyB]

Q1: They can restructure it at that point but they are limited in adjusting base salaries at that point. They can't do anything to alter the cap ramifications if he were to leave the roster at x. His base salaries are:

2012 $7,400,000.00
2013 $8,400,000.00  
2014 $9,400,000.00  
2015 $10,400,000.00

Lowering those has nothing to do with what happens to the cap if he's cut/traded/retires. It only affects the given year they are earned, but they could alter those once the new league year starts.

Q2: Any dollar spent will hit the cap one way or another and some point in time. So yes the base salary/incentives would hit the cap. When the incentives hit, is calculated differently depending on the incentive.

Thanks for the clarification. So technically, if he retired or was cut in two years and the salaries were reduced (to say, $4mil/year) the cap hit would pretty much be based on his bonus money paid up to that point and how that was previously distributed against the cap?

On the 2nd question ... The only reason I ask that is I feel his negotiated incentives would probably equate to his current value (roughly 18mil/year) so any team signing him would still need to have the cap room to do so. Correct? Just seems to make the 'deal' that less appealing, although a bit more flexible.

[ColtsBlueFL]

You made that up! (j/k)

I'm not sure the NFL even knows what the team cap figure for 2012 is yet. It is interesting that all those guys who had Peyton cut in January are now saying he may stay.

Quite a few of us stated it made no sense to pay option bonus, and we'd be 10.4 million behind other teams as far as cap in signing a free agent Peyton. So it didn't look favorable for us. But, since there was no cutting of him, that restructuring talks might have been part of the dealing process. If Manning will restructure to CBA approval, we may keep him, and not end up paying the 28, nor with a cap hit >17 million by re-signing him to a new deal; and he might be back under incentive deal. At least that's has been and still is my take on it. To me, jury is still out.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Thanks for the clarification. So technically, if he retired or was cut in two years and the salaries were reduced (to say, $4mil/year) the cap hit would pretty much be based on his bonus money paid up to that point and how that was previously distributed against the cap?

On the 2nd question ... The only reason I ask that is I feel his negotiated incentives would probably equate to his current value (roughly 18mil/year) so any team signing him would still need to have the cap room to do so. Correct? Just seems to make the 'deal' that less appealing, although a bit more flexible.

The cap penalties are based on the bonus dollars that are unamortized.

His 20 million signing bonus is paid up front, but for cap purposes it's accounted for 20/5 = 4 million per year, in each of the 5 years.

His 28 million option bonus if paid will be paid in one payment during the 2011 league year, but it's accounted for 28/5= 5.6 per year.

So 2011 is gone. Assuming the OB is paid,

His 2012 cap # will be made up of the following

Base Salary 7.4

Prorated SB 4.0

Prorated OB 5.6

Total 17million

If the base was cut to 1 million it would be a 10.6 hit. but the SB/OB pro-rations can't be adjusted. The only benefit is still in that given year of lowering the base salary. If he's cut it doesn't matter if his ^cowpatties^ is 1 million of 7.4, the un"accounted" for pro-rated base salaries are what accelerate into the current year.

If he's cut after 6/1, then there is an alternative method that is used, which is mentioned in the chart if you look above at one of my previous posts.

Q2

Two types of incentives

Likely to be earned(LTBE) and Not likely to be earned(NLTBE).

There are team incentives.

10 wins

Reach the Super Bowl

Super Bowl win

With the Colts, none of those were earned last year, so they would be NLTBE incentives.

If he signed the 49ers, the 10 wins, since they achieved that last year would be a LTBE

Individual incentives

25 touchdown passes

4000 yards passing

Make the Pro Bowl

Super Bowl MVP

Since he didn't play last season all individual incentives would be deemed NLTBE.

LTBE incentives are accounted for in the current salary cap.

NLTBE incentives are accounted for in the following year.

So if he had the following contract:

925k base salary

3 million of LTBE incentives

12 million of NLTBE incentives

and reached every one. He would have had a 3.925 cap hit, for 2012, and then 12 million moves into 2013, along with whatever the contract has listed for 2013.

The same contract could vary from team to team based on what the incentives are, and what the teams did last year. The Colts will still have the 10.4 dead cap space hit that will occur if and when he's released from his current deal.

Incentives can be far more complicated than the typical base salary/bonus/etc.

Hope this helps as opposed to adding confusion.