Colts Are A Great Team

[JoKeR]

I agree completely with the OP and the soft cover2 w/ pass rush is sound strategy with a high scoring, pass first offense.

But I'd like to have more balance now.

[subvet]

i am sick of this. the colts were not a great team with years because of just peyton. we had talent like wayne,edge,marv,dallas. there just as important to our years of success as peyton. peyton did not carry a bad team for 12 years. so we got caught with young players, injuries, and bad coaching for one year adn all of the sudden all of our success is because of one player. i dont think so. we are a great team for more reasons then just peyton.

Well, back in the day before Lucas Oil Stadium opened do you remember the nickname for the Hoosier Dome? The Colts have always been on the bubble and all they needed was the key, Peyton Manning proved to be it.

Many great players, many great games, I won't argue but without the magic Peyton provided I don't think the Colts would have risen as high as they did. Maybe the new quarterback will find the same magic......

[braveheartcolt]

We can only deal with facts. Colts without Peyton = V. Poor. Colts with Manning = V. Good.

Not sure how else to put it really.

[CR91]

We can only deal with facts. Colts without Peyton = V. Poor. Colts with Manning = V. Good.

Not sure how else to put it really.

there are more factors to our losing season then just peyton. poor coaching, injuries to the o-line, injuries on defense, young inexperienced players.

[braveheartcolt]

there are more factors to our losing season then just peyton. poor coaching, injuries to the o-line, injuries on defense, young inexperienced players.

Conjecture M'Lord. Facts are facts. Not saying I don't agree with you...however....

[IndyTrav]

Your rating system is based on...? I doubt that you'll find many to agree with you that Angerer is 'average', while concussions have kept Collie from developing a great start.

And how would you describe Angerer after one good season?!? Could he be 'great'? He he probably could be. Im not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

65 players, and the best we got were 2 safeties, one not even in the NFL anymore.....abysmal.

As for my 'rating' system. Please feel free to point out anyone in the drafts we've had who would be considered anything other than an average NFL starter. I'll say Bethea, and Sanders, outside of that, who do you feel is good/great?!?!

[DILLIGAFER]

I wouldn't necessarily say he carried the team, the team was just built based on him. By him playing and putting up points, the offensive line focused more on pass protection than on run protection and their flaws were covered by Peyton's quick release. The defense was built to play against the pass. So Peyton put up points and the defense went out and did what they were built to do. He is more like a catalyst, allowing everyone else to do their job in the best way. The problem is when you build around one player and that player gets hurt, all your weaknesses are exposed. Your team was built to play a certain, specific way; they are now forced to do something they aren't built for

There was no reason the defense could have played better. I don't believe the defense was built to only play with a Manning lead and shouldnt have been. whats wrong with a solid defense that even if Manning was hurt, went down, didnt do so well in a game, could still win a game without a huge lead? I blame Polian and the Defensive coaches for the fall apart after Manning was hurt, not Manning himself for wanting to lead the offense. The defense should have been able to step up.

[21isSuperman]

There was no reason the defense could have played better. I don't believe the defense was built to only play with a Manning lead and shouldnt have been. whats wrong with a solid defense that even if Manning was hurt, went down, didnt do so well in a game, could still win a game without a huge lead? I blame Polian and the Defensive coaches for the fall apart after Manning was hurt, not Manning himself for wanting to lead the offense. The defense should have been able to step up.

I'm not sure who the blame falls on for that one, be it Polian or Dungy for using the Tampa 2. Their theory was that Manning and the offense will put up plenty of points, so the other team's offense will be forced to throw the ball more often to catch up/keep up. Since they will be throwing more often, the Colts focused their defense on pass rushers like Freeney and Mathis, while neglecting the run defense. I agree that the scheming/idea to put that in was flawed

[number28]

Great OL's can make mediocre RB's look great as well.

Here's my take; I think what made Edge so great was a combination of a solid RB (Edge) and a decent (albeit inconsistent) O-line combined with the most feared passing game in the NFL at the time. Rarely did any team dare to stack 7-8 men in the box against Peyton, that was suicide. Even on obvious rushing downs (3rd & short) teams would have to jump their safeties out of the box as Manning changed the play, they knew he wasn't afraid to hit #88 on a deep route on 3rd & 1. This provided Edge and his O-line escort an even man-for-man match-up that produced extraordinary gain.

well, Addai and Brown weren't able to have this success, teams barely stacked 7-8 in the box even when Addai was in there. So basically Edge is just a great RB and Addai and Brown are not. That was my point. I did like what you said tho.

[ruksak]

well, Addai and Brown weren't able to have this success, teams barely stacked 7-8 in the box even when Addai was in there. So basically Edge is just a great RB and Addai and Brown are not. That was my point. I did like what you said tho.

As I typed the post you quoted, I was thinking just what you said. I love Addai, his style, his lateral movement. Unfortunately first downs aren't gained by lateral movement. Still I think he should be capable of giving us better rush gains than what we've had. Something external of him has changed (O-line & Passing/Playaction effectiveness). Lets not forget that Addai ran for an average of 4.8 yds per rush for a total of 1081yds in his rookie season. The next year (07) he only slid a tad, @ 4.1 per for 1072yds total. From there it got worse as his average dipped under 4yds per carry and injury became his calling card. Though he did bring it up to 4.3 per rush in 2010, but only over 8 games.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7779/career

So looking at that, I don't think it's Addai. He's a fine back. I believe the biggest difference between Addai's effectiveness and Edge's is significantly poorer O-line play combined with a far less effective passing game.

[Superman]

I'm not sure who the blame falls on for that one, be it Polian or Dungy for using the Tampa 2. Their theory was that Manning and the offense will put up plenty of points, so the other team's offense will be forced to throw the ball more often to catch up/keep up. Since they will be throwing more often, the Colts focused their defense on pass rushers like Freeney and Mathis, while neglecting the run defense. I agree that the scheming/idea to put that in was flawed

False premise. The defense wasn't built to play with a lead. It was built to put a premium on rushing the passer. You don't have to have a lead to put the other team in a passing situation. And the fact that the Colts won more games coming from behind than anyone else in the NFL with that so-called "built to play with a lead" defense shows just how flawed that thinking is. You can't erase a 17 point deficit in the 4th quarter if your defense can't get stops when you're not leading.

Lastly, every defense plays better with the lead, so the fact that we got a lot of stops late in games that we were leading doesn't prove that the defense was built to play with a lead. That's just football.

[Superman]

So looking at that, I don't think it's Addai. He's a fine back. I believe the biggest difference between Addai's effectiveness and Edge's is significantly poorer O-line play combined with a far less effective passing game.

Thing about Addai is that he was never a full-time back in college, and coming in, stamina and endurance were questions. He played so well as a rookie partially because he was only touching the ball 16 times a game, and was getting four or five series completely off every game. I don't think Addai could have produced like Edge did early in his career, because I don't think he would have held up over time.

I like him, and his production has most certainly been plagued by poor offensive line play since 2008, but he's also not a durable back. We're paying him like he's a 320 touch player, and he's just not. The only time a back who can't handle 20 touches a game should make $5 million a year is if he has game-breaking explosiveness. That's also not Addai. To me, there's just no argument for keeping him at this point.

[21isSuperman]

False premise. The defense wasn't built to play with a lead. It was built to put a premium on rushing the passer. You don't have to have a lead to put the other team in a passing situation. And the fact that the Colts won more games coming from behind than anyone else in the NFL with that so-called "built to play with a lead" defense shows just how flawed that thinking is. You can't erase a 17 point deficit in the 4th quarter if your defense can't get stops when you're not leading.

Lastly, every defense plays better with the lead, so the fact that we got a lot of stops late in games that we were leading doesn't prove that the defense was built to play with a lead. That's just football.

Correct that you don't have to have a lead to put the other team in a passing situation, but it's far less likely that the opponent passes the ball when they are leading. They will run the ball and run the clock out. And if Houston/Rosenfels was much smarter, their play calling would have been different in that game and Rosenfels should have slid instead of becoming a helicopter....though, of course, hindsight is 20/20

[21isSuperman]

Thing about Addai is that he was never a full-time back in college, and coming in, stamina and endurance were questions. He played so well as a rookie partially because he was only touching the ball 16 times a game, and was getting four or five series completely off every game. I don't think Addai could have produced like Edge did early in his career, because I don't think he would have held up over time.

I like him, and his production has most certainly been plagued by poor offensive line play since 2008, but he's also not a durable back. We're paying him like he's a 320 touch player, and he's just not. The only time a back who can't handle 20 touches a game should make $5 million a year is if he has game-breaking explosiveness. That's also not Addai. To me, there's just no argument for keeping him at this point.

Addai is our most complete back and our most reliable back. Without him, we are down to Carter, who only has 1 season under his belt and had fumbling issues that need to be worked on, and Brown, who has been improving slowly, but needs to prove that last year wasn't an anamoly

[ruksak]

To me, there's just no argument for keeping him at this point.

Other than the fact that we have such needs elsewhere, I'm not sure it would be excusable to yet again draft a RB or otherwise seek one in FA. Carter impressed me tremendously last year. The only change I could see would be in the firing order. As in, an open competition for the #1 RB spot between Addai and Carter.

[Superman]

Addai is our most complete back and our most reliable back. Without him, we are down to Carter, who only has 1 season under his belt and had fumbling issues that need to be worked on, and Brown, who has been improving slowly, but needs to prove that last year wasn't an anamoly

We were without Addai last year. He's very replaceable, and for far less than the $5 million he's due the next two seasons. Being a complete back is overvalued anymore, because no back plays that much anymore. We can replace what Addai brings by platooning and adjusting our blocking schemes.

[Superman]

Other than the fact that we have such needs elsewhere, I'm not sure it would be excusable to yet again draft a RB or otherwise seek one in FA. Carter impressed me tremendously last year. The only change I could see would be in the firing order. As in, an open competition for the #1 RB spot between Addai and Carter.

$5 million to the cap this year and next. You can't pay a running back who hasn't been able to stay healthy that much, not in the situation we're in. And even when healthy, he's not worth that much. We can draft a back, or we can go with the contingent we have right now, maybe adding a veteran back in secondary free agency.

[Superman]

Correct that you don't have to have a lead to put the other team in a passing situation, but it's far less likely that the opponent passes the ball when they are leading. They will run the ball and run the clock out. And if Houston/Rosenfels was much smarter, their play calling would have been different in that game and Rosenfels should have slid instead of becoming a helicopter....though, of course, hindsight is 20/20

In Houston, you're ignoring the other stops leading up to the Rosencopter play, which was just the icing. You don't erase a 17 point deficit with one stop on one play. And that's not the only time we've done that. We did it against the Patriots in 2010, and the rally ended on Manning's pick. We did it the year before against the Pats. Like I said, we led the league in 4th quarter comebacks over a long stretch of time. The defense could always get stops, even without the lead.

I'm not saying I agree with the way the defense was put together. But it wasn't "built to play with a lead."

[21isSuperman]

We were without Addai last year. He's very replaceable, and for far less than the $5 million he's due the next two seasons. Being a complete back is overvalued anymore, because no back plays that much anymore. We can replace what Addai brings by platooning and adjusting our blocking schemes.

Can Brown or Carter pass block as well as Addai? Addai is arguably the best pass blocking RB in the league; I have seen him take on way bigger, faster, stronger guys and win. We were without Peyton last year too, so our offense had more rushing in it. If Addai had stayed healthy (which is another knock on him, in all honesty. He hasn't been able to stay very healthy recently), how do we know if Addai wouldn't have outproduced Brown?

[21isSuperman]

In Houston, you're ignoring the other stops leading up to the Rosencopter play, which was just the icing. You don't erase a 17 point deficit with one stop on one play. And that's not the only time we've done that. We did it against the Patriots in 2010, and the rally ended on Manning's pick. We did it the year before against the Pats. Like I said, we led the league in 4th quarter comebacks over a long stretch of time. The defense could always get stops, even without the lead.

I'm not saying I agree with the way the defense was put together. But it wasn't "built to play with a lead."

Yeah, I guess that's right. It was built to play against the pass, would that be more correct?

[Superman]

Can Brown or Carter pass block as well as Addai? Addai is arguably the best pass blocking RB in the league; I have seen him take on way bigger, faster, stronger guys and win. We were without Peyton last year too, so our offense had more rushing in it. If Addai had stayed healthy (which is another knock on him, in all honesty. He hasn't been able to stay very healthy recently), how do we know if Addai wouldn't have outproduced Brown?

We don't have a single offensive lineman making $5 million a year. Why should we pay Addai $5 million to pass block? And how good is his pass-blocking when he's in street clothes?

I'm not saying I don't like him. I'm just saying that we can't afford to pay him what he's due on his contract, nor should we based on his production and his role.

[ruksak]

$5 million to the cap this year and next. You can't pay a running back who hasn't been able to stay healthy that much, not in the situation we're in. And even when healthy, he's not worth that much. We can draft a back, or we can go with the contingent we have right now, maybe adding a veteran back in secondary free agency.

The money makes sense if we effectively run a 2 back system. Lets not forget Addai's intangibles. Receiving and blocking, he's a very valuable player in these regards. Using him with a split-time with Carter/Brown, I think the money makes sense and he's likely to stay healthy that way. He's not a workhorse, rather, a finesse/utility back, but still very valuable.

[21isSuperman]

We don't have a single offensive lineman making $5 million a year. Why should we pay Addai $5 million to pass block? And how good is his pass-blocking when he's in street clothes?

I'm not saying I don't like him. I'm just saying that we can't afford to pay him what he's due on his contract, nor should we based on his production and his role.

The problem is that we don't have much proven depth behind him. I agree that it would be nice if he restructured though, but I don't want to see him be released

[ruksak]

We don't have a single offensive lineman making $5 million a year. Why should we pay Addai $5 million to pass block? And how good is his pass-blocking when he's in street clothes?

They don't catch passes and run for TD's though. Skill positions command higher value if they can offer a multiplicity of uses.

[Superman]

They don't catch passes and run for TD's though. Skill positions command higher value if they can offer a multiplicity of uses.

The money makes sense if we effectively run a 2 back system. Lets not forget Addai's intangibles. Receiving and blocking, he's a very valuable player in these regards. Using him with a split-time with Carter/Brown, I think the money makes sense and he's likely to stay healthy that way. He's not a workhorse, rather, a finesse/utility back, but still very valuable.

The problem is that we don't have much proven depth behind him. I agree that it would be nice if he restructured though, but I don't want to see him be released

He's not offering a multiplicity (!) of uses when he's on the bench, and he's missed 17 games in the last four years. And while he is probably the best blocking back in the league, and he's a very effective weapon out of the backfield, that's not worth $5 million a year at a position where you can get three backs, one that runs well, one that catches well, and one that blocks well, and pay them a total of $2.5 million.

And his usefulness as a blocker is easily replaced by improving the offensive line and scheming differently with our protections.

it comes down to the money with Addai. I don't think we should have re-signed him last year, not because I don't think he's a good back, but because I think he's easily replaceable in the NFL today. $5 million a year for someone that we don't intend to use every down is too much. We have other priorities that are more important than a 29 year old back who misses four games a year.

[FanFromtheWasteland]

And what would have allowed the stretch play to continue to work after James left? Maybe someone who could seal off the edge and create an outside lane? Addai only had one year with Glenn on the line, the Addai/Rhodes combo looked great in '06, and they worked the stretch play well that year. The next year was where we started seeing the "hop, hop, hop, cloud of dust, loss of a yard", and I suspect it was because Addai was so used to seeing a wide opening around the outside, and suddenly in his second year, it was nowhere to be found.

Addai was never as fast or as good as Edge at running the stretch play. Then after Addai was injured he started that hop step at the line (Which i hate to see because i feel it costs him yardage every time.) I will agree that some of it is the fact that Glen was gone but i lay most of the problem to the fact that Addai is no where near the running back that Edge was.

[FanFromtheWasteland]

there are more factors to our losing season then just peyton. poor coaching, injuries to the o-line, injuries on defense, young inexperienced players.

And a string of bad draft choices

[FanFromtheWasteland]

I'm not sure who the blame falls on for that one, be it Polian or Dungy for using the Tampa 2. Their theory was that Manning and the offense will put up plenty of points, so the other team's offense will be forced to throw the ball more often to catch up/keep up. Since they will be throwing more often, the Colts focused their defense on pass rushers like Freeney and Mathis, while neglecting the run defense. I agree that the scheming/idea to put that in was flawed

I lean towards blaming Polian since he carried on with that idea after Dungy left. It really didn't matter if opponents where behind in a game. They didn't HAVE to throw anymore because our run D was so anemic we couldn’t stop anyone from scoring that way. So much for the vaunted pass rush

[FanFromtheWasteland]

He's not offering a multiplicity (!) of uses when he's on the bench, and he's missed 17 games in the last four years. And while he is probably the best blocking back in the league, and he's a very effective weapon out of the backfield, that's not worth $5 million a year at a position where you can get three backs, one that runs well, one that catches well, and one that blocks well, and pay them a total of $2.5 million.

And his usefulness as a blocker is easily replaced by improving the offensive line and scheming differently with our protections.

it comes down to the money with Addai. I don't think we should have re-signed him last year, not because I don't think he's a good back, but because I think he's easily replaceable in the NFL today. $5 million a year for someone that we don't intend to use every down is too much. We have other priorities that are more important than a 29 year old back who misses four games a year.

I wouldn’t say it is EASY to replace him or we would already have done it before his last contract. Brown has been slow to improve. Hart played what….two games? Carter has potential but I see him as more of a full back. Addai has never been the same since his first injury. It has always looked to me like he was scared of being hit and hurt again hence the rabbit hop at the line of scrimmage.

[Coltsarerich]

No, he carried a bad team for about 3 years.

He carried a bad defense for about 10.

I'm sorry but the defense was definitely never bad. It was a strategic defense. We get decent lead, we rush the heck out of other team's qb, simple, simple, simple gameplan, and we were the only team in the NFL running it. Every other team tried to be sound all the way around like the patriots, it takes a billion years to get where bellichick is.

And ya, the short passing game has become a huge part of the offense over the last 5 or so years, some would say to protect the defense, but you could say the receivers or even peyton's deep ball ability plays a part.

time to rebuild, geez/. Got new everything, don't go fitting square pegs in round holes. If Peyton dont fit any more, time to move on. Freeney dont fit, move on, mathis dont fit move on, it's the nfl. Winning is all that matters.

[Superman]

I wouldn’t say it is EASY to replace him or we would already have done it before his last contract. Brown has been slow to improve. Hart played what….two games? Carter has potential but I see him as more of a full back. Addai has never been the same since his first injury. It has always looked to me like he was scared of being hit and hurt again hence the rabbit hop at the line of scrimmage.

Brown didn't look like a pro running back until the end of 2010, but the plan was for him to be the next guy. We were supposed to just let Addai walk last year. So it was more of a failure to get the right guy than a failure to do anything in terms of replacing him.

[IndyTrav]

I'm sorry but the defense was definitely never bad. It was a strategic defense. We get decent lead, we rush the heck out of other team's qb, simple, simple, simple gameplan, and we were the only team in the NFL running it. Every other team tried to be sound all the way around like the patriots, it takes a billion years to get where bellichick is.

Wait......What?

[CR91]

Other than the fact that we have such needs elsewhere, I'm not sure it would be excusable to yet again draft a RB or otherwise seek one in FA. Carter impressed me tremendously last year. The only change I could see would be in the firing order. As in, an open competition for the #1 RB spot between Addai and Carter.

didnt carter lose playing time because he kept fumbling

[ruksak]

didnt carter lose playing time because he kept fumbling

I suppose, and that was another coaching mistake. Carter carried 101 times and fumbled 3 times, which isn't good.......but he shouldn't have been yanked. He needs work and experience. He had an active streak of 215 carries in college without a fumble, and to my knowledge I'm not sure that he ever fumbled in college?

[21isSuperman]

He's not offering a multiplicity (!) of uses when he's on the bench, and he's missed 17 games in the last four years. And while he is probably the best blocking back in the league, and he's a very effective weapon out of the backfield, that's not worth $5 million a year at a position where you can get three backs, one that runs well, one that catches well, and one that blocks well, and pay them a total of $2.5 million.

And his usefulness as a blocker is easily replaced by improving the offensive line and scheming differently with our protections.

it comes down to the money with Addai. I don't think we should have re-signed him last year, not because I don't think he's a good back, but because I think he's easily replaceable in the NFL today. $5 million a year for someone that we don't intend to use every down is too much. We have other priorities that are more important than a 29 year old back who misses four games a year.

Yeah, his health isn't the best, but he is still the best RB we have. What good is it to have one RB that runs well, one that catches well and one that blocks well when you can have all three in one? That's like having a DB who can tackle well, one DB who can cover well, and one DB who can return well. It's best to have it all into one, even if it costs a bit more. And his blocking skills can't just be replaced with a better O-line; you gave 5 O-linemen, what do you do if the defenses blitzes with 6 or 7?

[21isSuperman]

I lean towards blaming Polian since he carried on with that idea after Dungy left. It really didn't matter if opponents where behind in a game. They didn't HAVE to throw anymore because our run D was so anemic we couldn’t stop anyone from scoring that way. So much for the vaunted pass rush

Yeah, reports were that he was meddling in with what Coyer wanted to do on defense and wouldn't let Coyer run the scheme he wanted

[FanFromtheWasteland]

Yeah, reports were that he was meddling in with what Coyer wanted to do on defense and wouldn't let Coyer run the scheme he wanted

Doesn’t surprise me at all. I thought that the D was more aggressive when Coyer first got here and then it suddenly stopped and was the same old same old.

[21isSuperman]

Doesn’t surprise me at all. I thought that the D was more aggressive when Coyer first got here and then it suddenly stopped and was the same old same old.

Yeah, our defense under Coyer during his first year was good. Made some aggressive play calls, blitzes, stunts, etc. Then it suddenly stopped

[Coltsarerich]

Doesn’t surprise me at all. I thought that the D was more aggressive when Coyer first got here and then it suddenly stopped and was the same old same old.

All I can think is they needed more depth in the front seven. constant dings and injuries, players getting tired with all that running.

[number28]

Can Brown or Carter pass block as well as Addai? Addai is arguably the best pass blocking RB in the league

I agree. He is definitely better in pass protection than what Edge and Marshall were, and they were really good blockers as well.