2016-2017 Indiana Pacers season (and the rest of the NBA)

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Jay Kirk said:

See lol I go even farther back I watched Wilt,  Big O , Havlacheck , West, Russell so on .

Yeah, that was before my time but I remember the 80's like it was yesterday. A lot of people that watched in 60's and 70's think Wilt is the GOAT and the most dominant force ever. I have seen film on Wilt and it's tough disagree with his dominance and his Stats back him up.

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah, that was before my time but I remember the 80's like it was yesterday. A lot of people that watched in 60's and 70's think Wilt is the GOAT and the most dominant force ever. I have seen film on Wilt and it's tough disagree with his dominance and his Stats back him up.

Wilt was a dominant force but night in and night out he didn't have to go against a barrage of seven footers that you would see in the 2000s. I mean Bill Russell is what...6'9 and he gave him fits. No doubt guys like Oscar and Bill and Wilt dominated the game and would be dominant big men now but the game is so different. Asking Wilt to go out to the 3 point line and defend the screen and roll or cover a shooting center out on the court. He was awesome athlete and I'm not saying he couldn't do it but I'm not just going to say its not even close to anyone touching him as being the best. In his era of course but you could see when other elite centers came along like Kareem etc and challenged him...it wasn't like he was this unstoppable force. The NBA has changed so much..and the athletes have gotten taller, faster, more athletic...some of the difference in ability is the fact that a few outstanding players that could play in any generation just stood out so differently. I'm not here to argue any more about Lebron...but the game is different...for better for worse whatever the case things have changed. I do think the all time greats would figure it out and still be great...but to just move a guy from one generation to another and think they would still just dominate...I think its impossible to know...just as if Lebron played in the 60s do we know he couldn't avg a triple double himself and score 40 pts a night? The GOAT argument is just one that's impossible to make imo.

[oldunclemark]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Cleveland. Only 2 teams that can/WILL beat Cleveland are out West = Warriors and Spurs.

Not possible that Toronto beats Cleveland under any circumstances?

 

Remember last year?

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Wilt was a dominant force but night in and night out he didn't have to go against a barrage of seven footers that you would see in the 2000s. I mean Bill Russell is what...6'9 and he gave him fits. No doubt guys like Oscar and Bill and Wilt dominated the game and would be dominant big men now but the game is so different. Asking Wilt to go out to the 3 point line and defend the screen and roll or cover a shooting center out on the court. He was awesome athlete and I'm not saying he couldn't do it but I'm not just going to say its not even close to anyone touching him as being the best. In his era of course but you could see when other elite centers came along like Kareem etc and challenged him...it wasn't like he was this unstoppable force. The NBA has changed so much..and the athletes have gotten taller, faster, more athletic...some of the difference in ability is the fact that a few outstanding players that could play in any generation just stood out so differently. I'm not here to argue any more about Lebron...but the game is different...for better for worse whatever the case things have changed. I do think the all time greats would figure it out and still be great...but to just move a guy from one generation to another and think they would still just dominate...I think its impossible to know...just as if Lebron played in the 60s do we know he couldn't avg a triple double himself and score 40 pts a night? The GOAT argument is just one that's impossible to make imo.

I am out of LIKES but very solid Post. It is very tough to compare to era's I agree. A lot of it is eye test as well and I wasn't born the 60's to fully see Wilt play live. I see Shaq as Wilt of this era as the most dominant Center for example. Regarding GOAT it is all opinion anyway and I debate for the fun of it so I don't take anything personal if you don't know me by now. All of the guys I have named could probably make an argument for GOAT one way or the other.

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Not possible that Toronto beats Cleveland under any circumstances?

 

Remember last year?

I wouldn't say impossible because you have the health factor. Having said that if LeBron and Irving stay healthy I don't see them losing to anyone in the East. They may get taken to 7 games by either the Celtics, Wizards, or Raptors but I don't see them losing if those 2 stay healthy.

[oldunclemark]

1 hour ago, Jay Kirk said:

See lol I go even farther back I watched Wilt,  Big O , Havlacheck , West, Russell so on .

That's where I am..

If someone says that LeBron is Top-5 all time, that means he's better than Bill Russell or Oscar,

I cant go there yet

 

Wilt, Michael, Kareem, ..they stand vey tall

[oldunclemark]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I wouldn't say impossible because you have the health factor. Having said that if LeBron and Irving stay healthy I don't see them losing to anyone in the East. They may get taken to 7 games by either the Celtics, Wizards, or Raptors but I don't see them losing if those 2 stay healthy.

You gotta look at the changes Toronto has made, largely Serge Ibaka..

....Cavs are not a big team....they must shoot well vs. Toronto

 

I think that's an even series

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

You gotta look at the changes Toronto has made, largely Serge Ibaka..

....Cavs are not a big team....they must shoot well vs. Toronto

 

I think that's an even series

It may be but look at who has Game 7 at home if it comes to that. Yeah I get it teams can lose Game 7 at home like the Warriors did last season but it rarely happens.

[oldunclemark]

12 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Wilt was a dominant force but night in and night out he didn't have to go against a barrage of seven footers that you would see in the 2000s. I mean Bill Russell is what...6'9 and he gave him fits. No doubt guys like Oscar and Bill and Wilt dominated the game and would be dominant big men now but the game is so different. Asking Wilt to go out to the 3 point line and defend the screen and roll or cover a shooting center out on the court. He was awesome athlete and I'm not saying he couldn't do it but I'm not just going to say its not even close to anyone touching him as being the best. In his era of course but you could see when other elite centers came along like Kareem etc and challenged him...it wasn't like he was this unstoppable force. The NBA has changed so much..and the athletes have gotten taller, faster, more athletic...some of the difference in ability is the fact that a few outstanding players that could play in any generation just stood out so differently. I'm not here to argue any more about Lebron...but the game is different...for better for worse whatever the case things have changed. I do think the all time greats would figure it out and still be great...but to just move a guy from one generation to another and think they would still just dominate...I think its impossible to know...just as if Lebron played in the 60s do we know he couldn't avg a triple double himself and score 40 pts a night? The GOAT argument is just one that's impossible to make imo.

DG, Bill Russell didn't really give Wilt fiots..

He really didnt...The Celtics beat Wilt's teams because they were better.

 

Wilt in his 20s would and could cover the 3-line.,.Remember.he was all-Big-8 in track

Wilt scored 37 a game for his career with any 3s and without the alley-opp lob game that's played so often today

What wilt wasn't is a shooter.......He was an awful foul shooter..

But there are no big player today who could do anything with young Wilt..

What you see a lot on video now is the early 30s Wilt...which was like early 30s Shaq.

.....Part of the problem with analyzing Wilt is that he's been gone so long.

Many today not only didnt see him  play, they never heard him talk about his ear or his career

 

When comparing players, I think you must go back to their mid-20s, when they were in their prime.

Since you cannt do that..and few can even imagine that accurately....I agree..the Greatest of All Time is a fantasy in our minds

 

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

DG, Bill Russell didn't really give Wilt fiots..

He really didnt...The Celtics beat Wilt's teams because they were better.

 

Wilt in his 20s would and could cover the 3-line.,.Remember.he was all-Big-8 in track

Wilt scored 37 a game for his career with any 3s and without the alley-opp lob game that's played so often today

What wilt wasn't is a shooter.......He was an awful foul shooter..

But there are no big player today who could do anything with young Wilt..

What you see a lot on video now is the early 30s Wilt...which was like early 30s Shaq.

.....Part of the problem with analyzing Wilt is that he's been gone so long.

Many today not only didnt see him  play, they never heard him talk about his ear or his career

 

When comparing players, I think you must go back to their mid-20s, when they were in their prime.

Since you cannt do that..and few can even imagine that accurately....I agree..the Greatest of All Time is a fantasy in our minds

 

 

 

Like I posted a little while go, it really is opinion for the most part when you narrow it down to 10-12 players or so for the GOAT as in Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe, LeBron, Oscar = Floor players, Big's in the discussion would be Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem - that covers all era's. All were great in their own way so I will leave it at that. I also thought Karl Malone was really awesome too but he never won a Championship unfortunately. He has Jordan to think for that LOL.

[oldunclemark]

I would put Malone above Tim Duncan....

 

we forget older players.....

Wilt not only scored 4000 points ..he played 48.5 minutes per game in 1962......that's not a misprint

Julius Erving averaged 30 a game his rookie year..

Nate Archibald....Bob Cousy...Nate Thurmond....Bernard King

 

The Greatness discussions are always lazy because they don't get deep into all eras

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

I would put Malone above Tim Duncan....

 

we forget older players.....

Wilt not only scored 4000 points ..he played 48.5 minutes per game in 1962......that's not a misprint

Julius Erving averaged 30 a game his rookie year..

Nate Archibald....Bob Cousy...Nate Thurmond....Bernard King

 

The Greatness discussions are always lazy because they don't get deep into all eras

Malone was more of a Pure PF than Duncan was IMO but Duncan could play PF and Center and had the better career. You will get no argument from me though that Malone was a beast. Why do you think I mentioned his name with the others.

[Jay Kirk]

36 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

That's where I am..

If someone says that LeBron is Top-5 all time, that means he's better than Bill Russell or Oscar,

I cant go there yet

 

Wilt, Michael, Kareem, ..they stand vey tall

Agreed I'm out of Likes , Big O done everything very well . BR was BR lol . Wilt was a freak of nature . Michael best offensive player  and to his credit worked himself there . Was not a great shooter to start with.

[oldunclemark]

      I know we're down and out.....

..but I am looking forward to the return of Lance Sunday against the Cavs

 

he so wanted to come back to the Pacers.. you rarely get a second chance like this

He'll make some crazy plays but I'll be smiling......never should have left

[dgambill]

26 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

DG, Bill Russell didn't really give Wilt fiots..

He really didnt...The Celtics beat Wilt's teams because they were better.

 

Wilt in his 20s would and could cover the 3-line.,.Remember.he was all-Big-8 in track

Wilt scored 37 a game for his career with any 3s and without the alley-opp lob game that's played so often today

What wilt wasn't is a shooter.......He was an awful foul shooter..

But there are no big player today who could do anything with young Wilt..

What you see a lot on video now is the early 30s Wilt...which was like early 30s Shaq.

.....Part of the problem with analyzing Wilt is that he's been gone so long.

Many today not only didnt see him  play, they never heard him talk about his ear or his career

 

When comparing players, I think you must go back to their mid-20s, when they were in their prime.

Since you cannt do that..and few can even imagine that accurately....I agree..the Greatest of All Time is a fantasy in our minds

 

 

 

No doubt. He was extremely athletic...and your right the only videos I have to rely on he was later on in his career. Just in every video he is like a head taller than most and even footage of his 100pt game he was playing against shrimp in comparison so the quality and quantity of his eras bigs just aren't equal to ours. I have no doubt he would still score his 30 pts and get his boards but I don't just assume he would dominate the same way and he would just seamlessly transition even though like I said the greats would still be greats...just harder to say they would be hands down GOATs with these arguments...same kinda thing with Oscar and him being a point guard with his size etc..yet in todays game his size and athleticism difference isn't so extreme. Great discussions though.

[oldunclemark]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Malone was more of a Pure PF than Duncan was IMO but Duncan could play PF and Center and had the better career. You will get no argument from me though that Malone was a beast. Why do you think I mentioned his name with the others.

No argeument was requested.....

I just think we all define career achievement differently..

/////I don't value titles as much as others

 

They matter but Russell's championships don't put him above Wilt..not even close

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

      I know we're down and out.....

..but I am looking forward to the return of Lance Sunday against the Cavs

 

he so wanted to come back to the Pacers.. you rarely get a second chance like this

He'll make some crazy plays but I'll be smiling......never should have left

Yeah Lance playing against LeBron should be real entertaining. We need a win badly too.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, oldunclemark said:

No argeument was requested.....

I just think we all define career achievement differently..

/////I don't value titles as much as others

 

They matter but Russell's championships don't put him above Wilt..not even close

 

 

I factor in Championships but it isn't the only factor to a players greatness I agree. It is nice to have 1 or 2 on your resume though to go with your Stats, etc.. Wilt won 2 so it's not like he never won and his Stats smoke Russell's. Wilt was better I agree despite Russell winning 11

[oldunclemark]

2 minutes ago, dgambill said:

No doubt. He was extremely athletic...and your right the only videos I have to rely on he was later on in his career. Just in every video he is like a head taller than most and even footage of his 100pt game he was playing against shrimp in comparison so the quality and quantity of his eras bigs just aren't equal to ours. I have no doubt he would still score his 30 pts and get his boards but I don't just assume he would dominate the same way and he would just seamlessly transition even though like I said the greats would still be greats...just harder to say they would be hands down GOATs with these arguments...same kinda thing with Oscar and him being a point guard with his size etc..yet in todays game his size and athleticism difference isn't so extreme. Great discussions though.

There are so many factors..

LBJ wouldn't shoot 3s if he played in the 50s or 60s....He would be more of an inside player

Wilt would not get the shots he got in the 60s...because obviously...3 is more than 2...he'd be more of a passer

 

I smile at what a young Julius Erving would have done today, though

[BrentMc11]

17 hours ago, dgambill said:

You mean Larry Bird who came in 22 years old vs 18 year old Lebron. Larry who played on some of the most loaded Boston Celtic teams of all time? Larry was great but I'm sorry he was not as good as Lebron. It isn't that close really. Larry had so many more advantages over Lebron in who he played with it isn't even close. Larry played with like 4 or 5 of the NBAs 50 greatest of all time. Lebron has played with one. It's all opinions and I grew up watching Larry but I can't put him ahead of Lebron. There is no question Larry is a superior shooter but Lebron can do things on the court that no man can. I hate to give Lebron any props at all but putting Kobe or some of these other guys on his level that only effected portions of the game and not all facets is a disservice to him. I will admit Larry and Magic affected the game in a similar all encompassing way but Lebron is just a level above in how he makes his team better.

I think Lebron is as bad as any player I have ever seen.

Lebron would have cried to his daddy after Laimbeer, Mahorn or Oakley fouled him.  He is one of the biggest crybabies I have ever seen.  Bird did not cry....he punched them in the face   

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, BrentMc11 said:

I think Lebron is as bad as any player I have ever seen.

Lebron would have cried to his daddy after Laimbeer, Mahorn or Oakley fouled him.  He is one of the biggest crybabies I have ever seen.  Bird did not cry....he punched them in the face   

. You are on a roll today brother.

[Jay Kirk]

2 minutes ago, BrentMc11 said:

I think Lebron is as bad as any player I have ever seen.

Lebron would have cried to his daddy after Laimbeer, Mahorn or Oakley fouled him.  He is one of the biggest crybabies I have ever seen.  Bird did not cry....he punched them in the face   

[oldunclemark]

6 minutes ago, BrentMc11 said:

I think Lebron is as bad as any player I have ever seen.

Lebron would have cried to his daddy after Laimbeer, Mahorn or Oakley fouled him.  He is one of the biggest crybabies I have ever seen.  Bird did not cry....he punched them in the face   

You know it Brent.

The Pistons jacked up Michael and Scottie Pippen coming down the lane because the couldn't stop them.

Hard fouls were just 2 shots...you had to get up and play

Finally, Michael just decided to add 10-15 pounds and muscle with them..

 

We forget (maybe us in Indiana don't) Larry didnt take a lot of cheap shots without responding. He was hard.

And if you elbowed him...he'd start tossing in off-balance 20-footers and telling you how you couldn't do anything about it

 

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, oldunclemark said:

You know it Brent.

The Pistons jacked up Michael and Scottie Pippen coming down the lane because the couldn't stop them.

Hard fouls were just 2 shots...you had to get up and play

Finally, Michael just decided to add 10-15 pounds and muscle with them..

 

We forget (maybe us in Indiana don't) Larry don't take a lot of cheap shots without responding. He was hard.

And if you elbowed him...he'd start tossing in off-balance 20-footers and telling you how you couldn't do anything about it

 

 

 

I used to love watching the Celtics vs Pistons in the late 80's. You never knew when a fight was coming? Bird and Laimbeer should've been in a cage match!

[Jay Kirk]

2 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

You know it Brent.

The Pistons jacked up Michael and Scottie Pippen coming down the lane because the couldn't stop them.

Hard fouls were just 2 shots...you had to get up and play

Finally, Michael just decided to add 10-15 pounds and muscle with them..

 

We forget (maybe us in Indiana don't) Larry didnt take a lot of cheap shots without responding. He was hard.

And if you elbowed him...he'd start tossing in off-balance 20-footers and telling you how you couldn't do anything about it

 

 

 

 FACT

[oldunclemark]

Used to be a guy named Maurice Lucas.....good player.....like David West..

...Played clean most all the time..

..but if a fight broke out...it stopped when Lucas came by .

 

You didn't get in his face....because he'd pop you good.....and everybody knew it

[Jay Kirk]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I used to love watching the Celtics vs Pistons in the late 80's. You never knew when a fight was coming? Bird and Laimbeer should've been in a cage match!

 bringing back the memories Larry really hated Lambeer  . Bill would say Hi Larry , Larry's replies cant be posted here .

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Used to be a guy named Maurice Lucas.....good player.....like David West..

...Played clean most all the time..

..but if a fight broke out...it stopped when Lucas came by .

 

You didn't get in his face....because he'd pop you good.....and everybody knew it

Lucas was a scary dude! I remember him well. He was on Portland's championship team in 1977 with Walton. That was the first Finals I ever watched. I was real young then but remember them taking down Julius and the Sixers.

[oldunclemark]

2 minutes ago, Jay Kirk said:

 bringing back the memories Larry really hated Lambeer  . Bill would say Hi Larry , Larry's replies cant be posted here .

Laimbeer might have been the cheap shot king of all time..and the funny thing is..

...now..when you hear him interviewed..he's a likable guy

 

NBA-TV does such a good job of getting past players on the set to analyze games and tell stories about the of days.

Isaiah Thomas is so good...loved him at IU...hated him with the Pistons

[BrentMc11]

Good comparison to David West late in West's career with Maurice Lucas.  

 

I too am out of likes.  I need to come back and get some of these.  80's and 90's NBA was phenomenal....have to run.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, oldunclemark said:

Laimbeer might have been the cheap shot king of all time..and the funny thing is..

...now..when you hear him interviewed..he's a likable guy

 

NBA-TV does such a good job of getting past players on the set to analyze games and tell stories about the of days.

Isaiah Thomas is so good...loved him at IU...hated him with the Pistons

Yeah I remember the 1981 Hoosier team really well. I loved Isiah and that whole team. Ray Tolbert used to bring Landon Turner up to Bally's where I worked out at several years ago. I met both those guys and talked to them often. They were up there a lot.

[BrentMc11]

17 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

. You are on a roll today brother.

LIKE...you made me laugh.....heading out.  Fun today!!  Thanks guys and gals.

[Jay Kirk]

5 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Laimbeer might have been the cheap shot king of all time..and the funny thing is..

...now..when you hear him interviewed..he's a likable guy

 

NBA-TV does such a good job of getting past players on the set to analyze games and tell stories about the of days.

Isaiah Thomas is so good...loved him at IU...hated him with the Pistons

Agreed

[dgambill]

14 minutes ago, BrentMc11 said:

I think Lebron is as bad as any player I have ever seen.

Lebron would have cried to his daddy after Laimbeer, Mahorn or Oakley fouled him.  He is one of the biggest crybabies I have ever seen.  Bird did not cry....he punched them in the face   

And if he played back then maybe he would have grown up tougher and punched them back...likely knocking them out as he is made of granite. Also after he broke their arm trying to block one of his monster dunks they might have just got out of the way...or if they were playing today they would be out of the league for fighting and technicals etc so really its all conjecture. Can't have it both ways. Can't just say he would be soft if he grew up in that era...nor the other way around.

[oldunclemark]

26 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah Lance playing against LeBron should be real entertaining. We need a win badly too.

Is Lance really just 26 years old.?......that is stunning to me..

....seems like he's been around so long

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, dgambill said:

And if he played back then maybe he would have grown up tougher and punched them back...likely knocking them out as he is made of granite. Also after he broke their arm trying to block one of his monster dunks they might have just got out of the way...or if they were playing today they would be out of the league for fighting and technicals etc so really its all conjecture. Can't have it both ways. Can't just say he would be soft if he grew up in that era...nor the other way around.

That is why comparing era's is really impossible. We don't know how LeBron would've played under 80's rules or how Wilt would play today going against 7 footers every night.

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah I remember the 1981 Hoosier team really well. I loved Isiah and that whole team. Ray Tolbert used to bring Landon Turner up to Bally's where I worked out at several years ago. I met both those guys and talked to them often. They were up there a lot.

To follow this up I vaguely remember the 1976 team, I was only 5 years old when they went undefeated. I started watching sports shortly after that. That's all my dad talked about in 1977 though how IU went undefeated. Of course I didn't know what the hell I was going on then, I just wanted a happy meal from McDonalds.

[Jay Kirk]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

To follow this up I vaguely remember the 1976 team, I was only 5 years old when they went undefeated. I started watching sports shortly after that. That's all my dad talked about in 1977 though how IU went undefeated. Of course I didn't know what the hell I was going on then, I just wanted a happy meal from McDonalds.

The 75 team was even better than 76

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Jay Kirk said:

The 75 team was even better than 76

Yeah that is what I have heard. Didn't Scotty May break his arm in 75? or was it someone else.

[Jay Kirk]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah that is what I have heard. Didn't Scotty May break his arm in 75? or was it someone else.

May if not they would've won it all that year undefeated