It Makes No Sense To Keep Freeney Now

[rockywoj]

Freeney is one of hte NFL's best pass rushers. IMHO, you don't dump one of the League's best defenders for no good reason. He's a key puzzle piece if one assumes the Colts have the intent of returning as a legitimate Super Bowl contender within the next couple of years.

Freeney and Mathis at DE, Nevis and hopefully a key addition in the middle, with the bigger run stuffing DEs in the rotation = a defensive strength. Seems silly to take a strength and gut it, rather than add a few needed puzzle pieces at other positions.

[GAColtfan]

Words of Samari Rolle- DB with Pagano in BAL (from ESPN int http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/colts-hire-chuck-pagano )

"Some more highlights of my chat with Rolle about Pagano:

On personnel: Expect Pagano to play to the strengths of the people he inherits and to try to gain favorable matchups. The Ravens simplified things more than people think in ways that simply got their best people in the best position.

Rolle rates Pagano as a “great adapter.” He expects Pagano will ultimately want the Colts to field a bigger defense, but will know getting it will be a gradual process."

If he is a great Def coach, why would he want to get rid of Freeney or Mathis for that matter. He should be, and probably is, salavating with ideas on how to more effectively use these guys.

Let's not forget when talking about Freeney's numbers that he has been coached by Larry Coyer the last few years....

[Smitto]

It is blasphemy. Do you think I want to see Dwight's career be over in Indy? I can still remember watching him in his first training camp and just how much raw potential was there in him. I have seen every NFL play he has ever been involved in. I don't want this to be the end.

HOWEVER; when you look at his 19 MILLION dollar cap number then it is clear what is about to happen here. We can't afford to pay him and it won't make sense to redo his contract when there is a great chance he won't fit in the defense we install anyway. We are not going to be running 99% zone with 40-50% Tampa2 anymore. That is very clear to see here.

So while it sucks; it is what it is. There is no sense in blaming me for pointing out the obvious.

I'm pretty sure we'll find put our answer today, CP will get questions about the 3-4 and freeney and Mathis so we'll see what he says.... for the money part I can understand but as for scheme freeney can play the 3-4.... anyone can these days.

[BlueShoe]

I'm pretty sure we'll find put our answer today, CP will get questions about the 3-4 and freeney and Mathis so we'll see what he says.... for the money part I can understand but as for scheme freeney can play the 3-4.... anyone can these days.

Not every player can play in the 3-4.

I hope they actually do answer these questions today; however I doubt they will. I can see them dancing around those questions for now.

[rockywoj]

Further to Freeney, he's entering the last year of his big contract, yes? If that's the case, then it seems like a no-brainer to simply renegotiate his contract with a 3 to 4 year extension, with the restructured contract being more "cap friendly". He's a dynamic player, one of the NFL's best pass rushers. If there's a problem because of his contract, you fix that problem. Simple. What you do NOT do is panic and simply dump him because you are too stupid to restructure things.

[BlueShoe]

Further to Freeney, he's entering the last year of his big contract, yes? If that's the case, then it seems like a no-brainer to simply renegotiate his contract with a 3 to 4 year extension, with the restructured contract being more "cap friendly". He's a dynamic player, one of the NFL's best pass rushers. If there's a problem because of his contract, you fix that problem. Simple. What you do NOT do is panic and simply dump him because you are too stupid to restructure things.

It's not that simple.

What do you pay him as (DE or RUSH LB)?

Linebackers make less money.

The one year franchise value of a linebacker for 2012 is going to be 8.8 million

The one year franchise value of a defensive end for 2012 is going to be 10.6 million

Now we can't franchise him, of course, but those numbers are important when a player renegotiates a contract.

THREE years ago, Suggs got a six year 63 million dollar deal and 38 million was guaranteed. That was three years ago, but the numbers in 2012 are likely to drop from 2011.

Freeney is 31 years old and will turn 32 in a few feeks. Are we really going to give him a six year deal that will pay him until he is 38? I doubt that. I don't even see us giving him a four year deal and paying him until he is 36.

On top of age and money, we don't know how he would fit in the new scheme. We can expect a new scheme and it is more likely that he won't fit.

So, sentimental value is to keep an aging player who costs a lot of money but probably can't play in the new system anyway. I don't see the optimism that some do in this.

It would be very hard to even put a package together and trade him. What team would want anything to do with that contract? Half of the teams in NFL run the 3-4 so they would have the same issue. I think we might be forced to release him.

[oldunclemark]

It would free up some cap room

It would....and Freeney can be nothing more than a 3rd down guy in a 3-4...

...Mathis is too small tl be a 3-4 end and I dont think we'd resign him at bihg mony on the HOPE that he can be an OLB....

I would be shocked if Pagono stays with Indy's 4-3

[oldunclemark]

Freeney is one of hte NFL's best pass rushers. IMHO, you don't dump one of the League's best defenders for no good reason. He's a key puzzle piece if one assumes the Colts have the intent of returning as a legitimate Super Bowl contender within the next couple of years.

Freeney and Mathis at DE, Nevis and hopefully a key addition in the middle, with the bigger run stuffing DEs in the rotation = a defensive strength. Seems silly to take a strength and gut it, rather than add a few needed puzzle pieces at other positions.

Freeney's' 'cap hit' is $19 mil.....more than Manning's

[BuildtheMonster1285]

Dont keep Freeney? Are you kidding?

[Thewholefnshow28]

The 19 million price tag is ugly, but what is uglier is our pass rush when Freeney is not around. We have seen it time and time again if Freeney is not out there our pass rush is nonexistant.

Do we really want to get rid of the guy who has proven that he can consistently get pressure by himself? I would be more willing to let the guy go if Jerry Hughes has shown us anything in the two years that he has been here. Our hope now is that he magically gets it if he is turned into a 3-4 OLB. That is a lot of hope to put on a guy who has been nothing bu a first round bust.

What I am more concerned about if we go to a 3-4 is not what we do with Freeney or Mathis. It is who is going to be our NT because god knows our DT get pushed around now. I cannot imagine any of them playing NT in a 3-4.

[BlueShoe]

The 19 million price tag is ugly, but what is uglier is our pass rush when Freeney is not around. We have seen it time and time again if Freeney is not out there our pass rush is nonexistant.

Do we really want to get rid of the guy who has proven that he can consistently get pressure by himself? I would be more willing to let the guy go if Jerry Hughes has shown us anything in the two years that he has been here. Our hope now is that he magically gets it if he is turned into a 3-4 OLB. That is a lot of hope to put on a guy who has been nothing bu a first round bust.

What I am more concerned about if we go to a 3-4 is not what we do with Freeney or Mathis. It is who is going to be our NT because god knows our DT get pushed around now. I cannot imagine any of them playing NT in a 3-4.

The draft has some options for us. Dontari Poe would instantly be on our radar.

[mvbighead]

Man so many people are jumping to conclusions!

Freeney isn't going anywhere. You don't hire a defensive minded coach then release your best defensive player. I bet the new HC is pumped up to utilize Dwight and Mathis.

This would be my thought as well. Philips didn't get into Houston and change their defensive philosophy by ousting all of his talent. While he isn't the HC, he still went in and switched them from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and made a remarkable improvement.

Thing is, Freeney would be no different than Mario, Tamba Hali (who is bigger than Freeney), Elvis Dumervil, and others who have made the transition. This could even boost his production.

But nope... Freeney doesn't fit? Why does he not fit? I don't see where the basis is coming from.

The only reason Freeney may not make the transition is because of his salary cap numbers and whether or not they retain his services. Outside of that, he is simply a shorter version of some of those guys. And as he's displayed his whole career, (as has Dumervil), height has nothing to do with getting to the QB.

[BlueShoe]

This would be my thought as well. Philips didn't get into Houston and change their defensive philosophy by ousting all of his talent. While he isn't the HC, he still went in and switched them from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and made a remarkable improvement.

Thing is, Freeney would be no different than Mario, Tamba Hali (who is bigger than Freeney), Elvis Dumervil, and others who have made the transition. This could even boost his production.

But nope... Freeney doesn't fit? Why does he not fit? I don't see where the basis is coming from.

The only reason Freeney may not make the transition is because of his salary cap numbers and whether or not they retain his services. Outside of that, he is simply a shorter version of some of those guys. And as he's displayed his whole career, (as has Dumervil), height has nothing to do with getting to the QB.

Can you see Freeney dropping back into coverage? What would happen if Freeney is one-on-one with some of these new hybrid TE's?

If all Freeney had to do was rush the quarterback then fine. I see no reason why he couldn't do that; however that is not all a RUSH LB does. They must be able to drop into coverage or else the defense will become too predictable.

And we all know that Freeney doesn't play the run very well. The RUSH LB must also be able to read run and make a play.

[mvbighead]

It's not that simple.

What do you pay him as (DE or RUSH LB)?

Linebackers make less money.

The one year franchise value of a linebacker for 2012 is going to be 8.8 million

The one year franchise value of a defensive end for 2012 is going to be 10.6 million

Now we can't franchise him, of course, but those numbers are important when a player renegotiates a contract.

THREE years ago, Suggs got a six year 63 million dollar deal and 38 million was guaranteed. That was three years ago, but the numbers in 2012 are likely to drop from 2011.

Freeney is 31 years old and will turn 32 in a few feeks. Are we really going to give him a six year deal that will pay him until he is 38? I doubt that. I don't even see us giving him a four year deal and paying him until he is 36.

On top of age and money, we don't know how he would fit in the new scheme. We can expect a new scheme and it is more likely that he won't fit.

So, sentimental value is to keep an aging player who costs a lot of money but probably can't play in the new system anyway. I don't see the optimism that some do in this.

It would be very hard to even put a package together and trade him. What team would want anything to do with that contract? Half of the teams in NFL run the 3-4 so they would have the same issue. I think we might be forced to release him.

I'll tell you what you pay him as... Dwight "Frickin" Freeney. Ever hear of a guy by the name of Demarcus Ware. Care to guess how much he's making? Care to guess what position he plays?

I'll answer those for you... 7 years, 79 million. OLB in a 3-4.

Ware seldom goes into coverage. Freeney seldom goes into coverage. Ware is a dominant pass rush threat. Freeney is a dominant pass rush threat.

No doubt they will try to do something with the contract. But the reality is, he is one of our best defensive talents and letting him go with the possibility of also letting Manning go simply does not make sense.

Personally, I don't see the pessimism some have in this. Pagano can run a hybrid system as Baltimore has said they often do. You play Freeney with his hand in the ground. You play him standing up. You do whatever you can with him to wreak havok on the opposing QB. He's done it his whole career. Why not now? Because he's standing upright instead of being down? If I am not mistaken, the man is capable of standing.

[mvbighead]

Can you see Freeney dropping back into coverage? What would happen if Freeney is one-on-one with some of these new hybrid TE's?

If all Freeney had to do was rush the quarterback then fine. I see no reason why he couldn't do that; however that is not all a RUSH LB does. They must be able to drop into coverage or else the defense will become too predictable.

And we all know that Freeney doesn't play the run very well. The RUSH LB must also be able to read run and make a play.

So we know he doesn't play the run very well do we?

You don't think that maybe, just maybe, the scheme we've long played dictated that? His one and only job was to get to the QB, and he did it better than most in the league.

[oldunclemark]

I dont know how you use undersized two DEs in a 3-4..

Freeney become a 3rd down rusher..and I dont see where Mathis fits in at all

He's only about 245 pounds...

he's been great for us...but how can we resign him to big cash?? When we're basically eliminating his position..

[BlueShoe]

So we know he doesn't play the run very well do we?

You don't think that maybe, just maybe, the scheme we've long played dictated that? His one and only job was to get to the QB, and he did it better than most in the league.

I love Freeney and I will argue that he is a great defensive end to anyone who says he is not. That being said, we know from watching him all of these years that he does not play well against the run. Teams will actually run straight at him because they know this too.

[chad72]

I dont know how you use undersized two DEs in a 3-4..

They will both be 3-4 OLBs like DeMarcus Ware or Elvis Dumervil

[mvbighead]

I love Freeney and I will argue that he is a great defensive end to anyone who says he is not. That being said, we know from watching him all of these years that he does not play well against the run. Teams will actually run straight at him because they know this too.

Again, this has been scheme more than anything. All they've ever wanted him to do was pressure the QB. We were built to play with a lead.

Aside from that, you suggested coverage liability... well, Demarcus Ware has 1 INT in his 7 year career. He's played in 112 games. While I know that doesn't tell the whole store, it sure sheds light on it. His counterpart, Anthony Spencer, also has only 1 in his 5 year career.

As to stopping the run... I seem to recall Freeney bullrushing a lineman straight into a RB and making the play through him. He does more than just spin around opposing lineman. He may not be a premier run DE, but his entire career with the Colts was never about stopping the run. When he had to, he did just fine.

[basketballsteve]

Freeney has played his position exactly as he has been asked to do it since coming to the Colts. If the demands change and he is asked to play his position differently he can and will do it. Look at Freeney's workouts on youtube and then tell me this guy has been successful just because he happened to have the skill set needed to be a pass rushing DE in a 4-3. No, I'm sorry, this guy works really hard and developed the necessary skill set to dominate as a pass rush first DE. There is no evidence.....ZERO..... that he can't do something else.....he is a stud athlete and has the desire and the attitude. I don't believe it's a valid argument to say he's only able to rush the passer and create pressure and nothing else when he's never been ask to be a run stopper. Finally he only plays 60-70% of the downs now so the idea that he couldn't have a role in a different scheme is nonsense.

[BlueShoe]

I'll tell you what you pay him as... Dwight "Frickin" Freeney. Ever hear of a guy by the name of Demarcus Ware. Care to guess how much he's making? Care to guess what position he plays?

I'll answer those for you... 7 years, 79 million. OLB in a 3-4.

Ware seldom goes into coverage. Freeney seldom goes into coverage. Ware is a dominant pass rush threat. Freeney is a dominant pass rush threat.

No doubt they will try to do something with the contract. But the reality is, he is one of our best defensive talents and letting him go with the possibility of also letting Manning go simply does not make sense.

Personally, I don't see the pessimism some have in this. Pagano can run a hybrid system as Baltimore has said they often do. You play Freeney with his hand in the ground. You play him standing up. You do whatever you can with him to wreak havok on the opposing QB. He's done it his whole career. Why not now? Because he's standing upright instead of being down? If I am not mistaken, the man is capable of standing.

Freeney just about never dropped into coverage when we were running a 4-3 zone scheme (His entire career). Let's face it, that defense is long gone. It is going to be scrapped. Time to move on from it.

I wouldn't call Ware dropping into coverage (10% of the time) seldom. Those are real plays that have to be played at a high level. Ware is very good against the pass when dropping into coverage. Ware is also very good against the run. He is not a dominate pass rusher. He is a very good pass rusher. He does everything very good.

Freeney is not equal to Ware.

Just as Ware is not equal to Freeney.

They are not the same player.

[Warhorse]

I think we should fire and cut everyone every season, that way its always new and fresh. Change is always better. Luck will be better. A 3/4 defense will be better. A fiery head coach will be better. Just do anything that will ensure that I as a fan don't have to experience 2-14.....I cant handle it. Tongue in cheek, lighthearted sarcasm off.

Just saying can we please just for once acknowledge the changes as they happen without using our wonderful players that have worked so hard, as shields against our own inability to handle adversity? DFree is a once in a lifetime player. He may well have played his last down in a Colts uni, but that would NOT be because he doesn't fit the same scheme of an incoming coach who WAS a DC and coached a different scheme for one year. It would be over age/contract/unwillingness to negotiate going forward. Just for the record, if he comes available, teams will line up to sign him.

[BlueShoe]

Again, this has been scheme more than anything. All they've ever wanted him to do was pressure the QB. We were built to play with a lead.

Aside from that, you suggested coverage liability... well, Demarcus Ware has 1 INT in his 7 year career. He's played in 112 games. While I know that doesn't tell the whole store, it sure sheds light on it. His counterpart, Anthony Spencer, also has only 1 in his 5 year career.

As to stopping the run... I seem to recall Freeney bullrushing a lineman straight into a RB and making the play through him. He does more than just spin around opposing lineman. He may not be a premier run DE, but his entire career with the Colts was never about stopping the run. When he had to, he did just fine.

Ware drops into coverage a little over 10% of the time, but he is very effective when he does. That's why he doesn't have the eye popping pass defense numbers.

Again regarding Freeney, he has done one thing his entire NFL career. He will be 32 next month. Not a good recipe to change up what he does now.

[chad72]

The pass rushing OLB in a 3-4 that Freeney will play in a 3-4 is responsible for a lot of tipped balls too to result in incompletions, something Ware, Shaun Philips etc. get a lot of. They don't need to get INTs to be effective, just play the passing lane to make the QB think on slants and give extra time for pass rush from the other side to get to the QB as well.

[Smitto]

Not every player can play in the 3-4.

I hope they actually do answer these questions today; however I doubt they will. I can see them dancing around those questions for now.

With the type of players that are coming into the NFL these days yea they can.. guys like harrison from the steelers probably would have never been considered in a 1960's giants defense.

But i think we will get an example of what he's gonna run, well im hoping.

[jriddy5000son]

No one knows if we are going to be a 4-3 or a 3-4 yet. I am sure he will look into all options.

[pedrazla1]

Freeney is perfect for Pagano's scheme!

He would be amazing as a DE/OLB hybrid that a 3-4 defense needs to succeed. He's fast, strong and intellegent enough to pick it up.

Imagine the middle of the field covered by Mathis, Brackett, Angerer and Freeney.

They could so do it!

[mvbighead]

Ware drops into coverage a little over 10% of the time, but he is very effective when he does. That's why he doesn't have the eye popping pass defense numbers.

Again regarding Freeney, he has done one thing his entire NFL career. He will be 32 next month. Not a good recipe to change up what he does now.

So 10% of the time we see Freeney in coverage... what makes you think he can't do that? The man is an athlete who is in phenomenal shape. If 10% of his responsibilities are to drop back in coverage, I'd say that the other 90% we get out of him are going to be better than most. So if we is mediocre in pass coverage, it won't really matter. We've had plenty of LBs who are a liability vs. the pass. Heck, Rob Morris was one of them and we went to the SB and won it with him playing OLB.

To me, that 10% of dropping back is not some reason to throw aside a proven play maker because we don't know how he'll be in coverage. That 10% is something that you figure he'll start out at a D level and hopefully improve to a C.

I'm simply not getting what point you're trying to make. He's as good as there is at getting to the QB, thus a pro bowl again this year. Yet, because he's 32, we can't assume that he can be a great pass rushing OLB?

[CCF]

I Don't see us running a 3-4 defence this year, maybe the odd look as a wrinkle. But I'm sure we will see a 4-3 base still, just minus the cover 2 (thank god). Freeney can fit into any scheme, and yeah he is a nice piece for a defence but in no way worth the cap hit he comes with. Last year of the contract so you cant "rework" it, so its either eat the 19mil cap hit or release him. And I would argue the notion of most of this board about him being our best player on D, to me that is Bethea, he had some great years here but the writing is on the wall, this team needs cap room so there are 19m reasons he should be cut.

[PManning21]

After reading 1 of Robert Mathis Tweet it seems like he wants to prove he can be successful without Freeney.

@markschlereth #Thanks! We can make it happen. B.T.W im not mad, just driven to prove I can play & not b/c my boy takes all the blockers!

I got that he wants to get away from Dwight Freeney because of that statement, I might be wrong, but that's what I feel.

R.M does however want to play a 3-4 and he is very excited about the possibilty of it being implemented. Will Dwight Freeney be on board ?

Edited January 27, 2012 by PManning21

[GoColts8818]

Worth mentioning that Pagano said in the presser today that he didn't think Freeney and Mathis would have a problem becoming a 3-4 linebackers.