How could we pass on Whitehair in the 2nd round?

[evilleseniorfan]

I like a lot of what we did, but we could have hit a grand slam by fixing the core of the OL.  Mewhort/Kelly/Whitehair could have formed a comfortable core for Luck's entire career.  Instead we opted for a S, a LB with bad knees and character problems, and a back up C.  WHY?  Is it the GM or the scouting staff?

[gregr507]

I have to agree. Would have loved Whitehair in the 2nd to put next to Allen, or even a few other players that were still on the board. Maybe they feel comfortable with who we currently have at guard. Obviously they see something in Green, it just seems like a strange pick considering what was available. As I understand they were pretty excited about landing the guy, hopefully it works out for the best

[SP_21]

I'd swap TJ Green for Whitehair no question. That said, TJ has a ton of potential and could be a difference maker for us in the future. Hard to be terribly upset with that. 

 

Antonio Morrison is getting a lot of flack on here. I don't really get it. Obviously he didn't test well but he was on bed rest for weeks before his pro day. You don't have 100+ tackle seasons in the SEC without adequate speed and some talent. With all the trouble we've had going against powerful downhill running backs a tough, strong, hard hitting linebacker with unreal intensity should be welcomed. 

 

As far as Blythe, I have no idea what the plan is for him but he was an excellent run blocker. 

[OffensivelyPC]

Perhaps he wasn't as good as TJ Green?

[wig]

Grigs drafts 4 OL and people still complain he didn't do enough. Can't make this stuff up. 

[NewColtsFan]

35 minutes ago, evilleseniorfan said:

I like a lot of what we did, but we could have hit a grand slam by fixing the core of the OL.  Mewhort/Kelly/Whitehair could have formed a comfortable core for Luck's entire career.  Instead we opted for a S, a LB with bad knees and character problems, and a back up C.  WHY?  Is it the GM or the scouting staff?

 

It wasn't hard to pass on Whitehair....

 

We have other very, very pressing needs,  like defense.

 

It's hard to pass up on defense for the first two rounds of a draft.     And you can find guards later in any draft.

 

As it is, Clark may play guard for a year.      Or, Thornton may play the spot better than he ever has before because of our coaching.   Or maybe Reitz plays there?    Or Good might blossom playing guard with Philbin as his coach?    Or maybe Kahlid Holmes improves?     

 

There are all sorts of ways to get improved play at guard.

 

As a general manager, you have to see the Big Picture and not just one issue.

[OffensivelyPC]

39 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

It wasn't hard to pass on Whitehair....

 

We have other very, very pressing needs,  like defense.

 

It's hard to pass up on defense for the first two rounds of a draft.     And you can find guards later in any draft.

 

As it is, Clark may play guard for a year.      Or, Thornton may play the spot better than he ever has before because of our coaching.   Or maybe Reitz plays there?    Or Good might blossom playing guard with Philbin as his coach?    Or maybe Kahlid Holmes improves?     

 

There are all sorts of ways to get improved play at guard.

 

As a general manager, you have to see the Big Picture and not just one issue.

It's thus reasoning (which I agree with, btw) that draft boards can't be solely BPA. BPA driven? Yes. In later rounds where you likely aren't drafting starter material? BPA absolutely. In Rounds 1-3? You have to give some consideration to need. It's not the deciding factor.  But when a guy is only a couple points away in grade, drafting need can be justified.

[wig]

2 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

It's thus reasoning (which I agree with, btw) that draft boards can't be solely BPA. BPA driven? Yes. In later rounds where you likely aren't drafting starter material? BPA absolutely. In Rounds 1-3? You have to give some consideration to need. It's not the deciding factor.  But when a guy is only a couple points away in grade, drafting need can be justified.

 

I prefer the opposite. First 3 rounds should be BPA, with the exception of a position or two (QB and WR this year), while you target positions to fill out the roster later on, IMO. 

 

By going for need in the firs 3 rounds, you're much less likely to get game changing talent. 

[evilleseniorfan]

With Mewhort on board, Kelly in #1, Whitehair in #2, and Clark in #3, you have 5 picks to beef up the D

including 2 4th rounders.

[wig]

11 minutes ago, evilleseniorfan said:

With Mewhort on board, Kelly in #1, Whitehair in #2, and Clark in #3, you have 5 picks to beef up the D

including 2 4th rounders.

 

Whitehair wasn't available after trading back.

[OffensivelyPC]

30 minutes ago, wig said:

 

I prefer the opposite. First 3 rounds should be BPA, with the exception of a position or two (QB and WR this year), while you target positions to fill out the roster later on, IMO. 

 

By going for need in the firs 3 rounds, you're much less likely to get game changing talent. 

Fair enough. I think we agree more than you think, but, to me, BPA is most important.

[evilleseniorfan]

He was available before the trade!

[Indeee]

Whitehair went 1 pick shy of ours to the bears...

[evilleseniorfan]

We traded down from 18 to 26.  Bears took Whitehair at 25.

[COLTS449]

Who knows. The bigger question is why didn't we take Christian Westerman in the 5th??? I mean I think its pretty obvious that Westerman is better than Haeg. Then with the Morrison pick. Why didn't we take Kentrell Brothers instead??? Then in the 2nd. Why didn't we take Fackrell or Calhoun? Or trade up for Spence or Correa??? Trading up and giving up our 2nd and a 2017 3rd and 4th would have gotten us up to the top 10 of the 2nd. So IMO this draft would be a whole lot better

 

1 Ryan Kelly Center

2 Noah Spence EDGE

3 LeRaven Clark T/G

4 Hassan Ridgeway DT

5 Christian Westerman G

7 Alex McCalister EDGE

 

Then grabbed Ochi and Cash as UDFA's. Honestly I see Jeremy Cash as the better safery between he and Green. And I definitely see him more likely than Green to contribute day 1. To me most of this draft is a big ole ?

[richard pallo]

I couldn't understand it either for the reasons mentioned. If we didn't trade back so far, like a third of the draft, we still could have acquired an extra pick and Whitehair.  Of course maybe there wasn't another offer.  So close.  Hopefully it all works out.  By the way the Bears cut their starting LG Matt Slauson today and are putting Whitehair there.  That says a lot. Maybe we cut a center tomorrow.

[wig]

21 minutes ago, Indeee said:

Whitehair went 1 pick shy of ours to the bears...

 

Yes, but how do we have 5 picks for defense and 3 for OL without the trade? 

[OffensivelyPC]

10 minutes ago, COLTS449 said:

Who knows. The bigger question is why didn't we take Christian Westerman in the 5th??? I mean I think its pretty obvious that Westerman is better than Haeg. Then with the Morrison pick. Why didn't we take Kentrell Brothers instead??? Then in the 2nd. Why didn't we take Fackrell or Calhoun? Or trade up for Spence or Correa??? Trading up and giving up our 2nd and a 2017 3rd and 4th would have gotten us up to the top 10 of the 2nd. So IMO this draft would be a whole lot better

 

1 Ryan Kelly Center

2 Noah Spence EDGE

3 LeRaven Clark T/G

4 Hassan Ridgeway DT

5 Christian Westerman G

7 Alex McCalister EDGE

 

Then grabbed Ochi and Cash as UDFA's. Honestly I see Jeremy Cash as the better safery between he and Green. And I definitely see him more likely than Green to contribute day 1. To me most of this draft is a big ole ?

Why us that the bigger question? He was, before the draft a 3rd rounder at worst. EVERYONE passed on him for 2 more rounds. I dont know how you can say with a straight face that "he was clearly better than Haeg" unless you dont consider the possibility that youve missed something.

[evilleseniorfan]

I totally agree with your comments on the Morrison pick.  A real mystery.  GM or scouting staff?  I still believe you must invest high round (1 & 2) if you want to protect a franchise QB.  I thought Whitehair was that asset.     

[OffensivelyPC]

18 minutes ago, evilleseniorfan said:

We traded down from 18 to 26.  Bears took Whitehair at 25.

What draft are you talking about? Are you sure you are talking about the NFL Draft? Are you using the overall pick relative to the round? Was just confused is all.

[Wesk7]

40 minutes ago, COLTS449 said:

Who knows. The bigger question is why didn't we take Christian Westerman in the 5th??? I mean I think its pretty obvious that Westerman is better than Haeg. Then with the Morrison pick. Why didn't we take Kentrell Brothers instead??? Then in the 2nd. Why didn't we take Fackrell or Calhoun? Or trade up for Spence or Correa??? Trading up and giving up our 2nd and a 2017 3rd and 4th would have gotten us up to the top 10 of the 2nd. So IMO this draft would be a whole lot better

 

1 Ryan Kelly Center

2 Noah Spence EDGE

3 LeRaven Clark T/G

4 Hassan Ridgeway DT

5 Christian Westerman G

7 Alex McCalister EDGE

 

Then grabbed Ochi and Cash as UDFA's. Honestly I see Jeremy Cash as the better safery between he and Green. And I definitely see him more likely than Green to contribute day 1. To me most of this draft is a big ole ?

Change ridgeway with billings and this would've been about perfect to me

[SP_21]

41 minutes ago, COLTS449 said:

Who knows. The bigger question is why didn't we take Christian Westerman in the 5th??? I mean I think its pretty obvious that Westerman is better than Haeg. Then with the Morrison pick. Why didn't we take Kentrell Brothers instead??? Then in the 2nd. Why didn't we take Fackrell or Calhoun? Or trade up for Spence or Correa??? Trading up and giving up our 2nd and a 2017 3rd and 4th would have gotten us up to the top 10 of the 2nd. So IMO this draft would be a whole lot better

 

1 Ryan Kelly Center

2 Noah Spence EDGE

3 LeRaven Clark T/G

4 Hassan Ridgeway DT

5 Christian Westerman G

7 Alex McCalister EDGE

 

Then grabbed Ochi and Cash as UDFA's. Honestly I see Jeremy Cash as the better safery between he and Green. And I definitely see him more likely than Green to contribute day 1. To me most of this draft is a big ole ?

Green and Cash couldn't be more different. Cash is a hybrid SS/LB who is slow and stiff for a safety. Green is raw but has the physical tools (speed,size,agility) to be a good FS. I don't get your comparison???

 

An even comparison for Cash would be Geathers. And I'd much rather have Geathers than Cash

[evilleseniorfan]

The same draft we watched for three days!  Yes, the original draft positions

[Moncrief]

Understand that there will be more drafts, with more "can't miss" and "cornerstone" pieces that we will add. I will say that something I saw with Whitehair, and although I like him, he would step in and turn his back so you would immediately see his numbers too often. Idk if it was a coaching thing but it can't be hard to correct. Typically if you're watching from the sideline and you see your OLs numbers, it means they are getting beat.

[COLTS449]

29 minutes ago, SP_21 said:

Green and Cash couldn't be more different. Cash is a hybrid SS/LB who is slow and stiff for a safety. Green is raw but has the physical tools (speed,size,agility) to be a good FS. I don't get your comparison???

 

An even comparison for Cash would be Geathers. And I'd much rather have Geathers than Cash

 

I'm only comparing them because they're both safeties. But yeah they're totally different type players. I'm just saying I think Cash is the better of the two right now. I'm just not a fan of the Green pick at all.

[evilleseniorfan]

I really wanted Whitehair for our OL's future.  But we don't.  The Bears do.  RIP.  Go Colts

[aReggie7]

I don't think the Colts had interest in Whitehair in the second round.

 

- It is pretty clear to me that Pagano wanted TJ Green. He didn't want to do the trade they did and risk losing him. He wanted to take him at 48 and be done with it.

 

- I'm not sure Whitehair is the type of offensive lineman the Colts are looking for now. They seem to be going towards more athletic linemen. (that's not to say Whitehair is a bad athlete) Plus, I think they wanted more of a T/G combo. Whitehair is probably more of an interior player in the NFL.

[CheezyColt]

2 hours ago, COLTS449 said:

Who knows. The bigger question is why didn't we take Christian Westerman in the 5th??? I mean I think its pretty obvious that Westerman is better than Haeg. Then with the Morrison pick. Why didn't we take Kentrell Brothers instead??? Then in the 2nd. Why didn't we take Fackrell or Calhoun? Or trade up for Spence or Correa??? Trading up and giving up our 2nd and a 2017 3rd and 4th would have gotten us up to the top 10 of the 2nd. So IMO this draft would be a whole lot better

 

1 Ryan Kelly Center

2 Noah Spence EDGE

3 LeRaven Clark T/G

4 Hassan Ridgeway DT

5 Christian Westerman G

7 Alex McCalister EDGE

 

Then grabbed Ochi and Cash as UDFA's. Honestly I see Jeremy Cash as the better safery between he and Green. And I definitely see him more likely than Green to contribute day 1. To me most of this draft is a big ole ?

 

Oh FFS, you're upset that we didn't trade away our second this year and TWO future draft picks for one player?  I was all for Spence but that is ENTIRELY too much draft capital for 1 prospect with a drug history and less than ideal measurables.

[COLTS449]

34 minutes ago, CheezyColt said:

 

Oh FFS, you're upset that we didn't trade away our second this year and TWO future draft picks for one player?  I was all for Spence but that is ENTIRELY too much draft capital for 1 prospect with a drug history and less than ideal measurables.

 

Even if he comes in and balls out, gets double digit sacks every year and turns into a top 10 EDGE rusher in the NFL???

[CheezyColt]

Just now, COLTS449 said:

 

Even if he comes in and balls out, gets double digit sacks every year and turns into a top 10 EDGE rusher in the NFL???

 

I'm sorry, do you have a time machine or future tapes of him playing in the NFL that we're not aware of?  That's all projection, like any other draft pick. This front office just managed to not get fired after last year's fiasco. There was no way they could mortgage the future for a 2nd round pass rusher in an underwhelming pass rush class. Especially one with a drug history. I wish we could have picked up an extra pick or two in next year's class, when we can actually focus on the defense and what's projected to be the best crop of RBs in a long time.

[OffensivelyPC]

29 minutes ago, COLTS449 said:

 

Even if he comes in and balls out, gets double digit sacks every year and turns into a top 10 EDGE rusher in the NFL???

Surely you've considered the counter-point. Because it seems like you should. You're making quite a bit of promises for a guy who's never set foot on a professional football field.

[akcolt]

3 hours ago, COLTS449 said:

Who knows. The bigger question is why didn't we take Christian Westerman in the 5th??? I mean I think its pretty obvious that Westerman is better than Haeg. Then with the Morrison pick. Why didn't we take Kentrell Brothers instead??? Then in the 2nd. Why didn't we take Fackrell or Calhoun? Or trade up for Spence or Correa??? Trading up and giving up our 2nd and a 2017 3rd and 4th would have gotten us up to the top 10 of the 2nd. So IMO this draft would be a whole lot better

 

1 Ryan Kelly Center

2 Noah Spence EDGE

3 LeRaven Clark T/G

4 Hassan Ridgeway DT

5 Christian Westerman G

7 Alex McCalister EDGE

 

Then grabbed Ochi and Cash as UDFA's. Honestly I see Jeremy Cash as the better safery between he and Green. And I definitely see him more likely than Green to contribute day 1. To me most of this draft is a big ole ?

There are two things I question in this draft. First taking Clark. He a good value and will be a fine OT maybe even on the left side. He's a guy who I don't see playing much this year. We take him  over Jenkins and Fackrell in the 3rd. Etheir OLB would have helped immediatley at a position of need. We have heard for months we are good at OT.

 

The biggest head scratcher for me and a pick I see no value in is drafting a one legged ILB who can't cover at 125. I would have taken a chance on a day 2 talent in CB Robinson LSU at 125. Robinson has everything it takes to be a very good press CB in this league. A top 40 talent at 125.

 

Yes he has off field issues. It would be a risk but Morrison's health is a bigger risk. 2 knee surgeries I see no reason to think his body will suddenly hold up. 

 

If you want something safer at 125 Booker/Dixon were both there. Booker was the 2nd best back in the draft to me and fits our O perfectly. Judon Hall etc a lot of different ways to go. I'd be surprised if Morrison makes the roster unless he is stashed on the. IR. 

 

I have no problem not moving up for Spence or Correra. If Spence was what many on the board have convinced themselves he is he would have been gone in the 1st. He's slow doesn't have the speed for edge. 

 

Green is going to be better sooner than people think. No way Cash is better. Why take Fackrel in the 2nd he was there in the 3rd? Whitehair was over hyped IMO. No problem passing on him.

 

I am getting over taking a C at 18 and warming up to this draft. The only pick I really just don't like is the Morrison pick. I would have went a different direction in a couple of spots but Morrison was just bad. 

 

 

 

 

[SP_21]

42 minutes ago, akcolt said:

There are two things I question in this draft. First taking Clark. He a good value and will be a fine OT maybe even on the left side. He's a guy who I don't see playing much this year. We take him  over Jenkins and Fackrell in the 3rd. Etheir OLB would have helped immediatley at a position of need. We have heard for months we are good at OT.

 

The biggest head scratcher for me and a pick I see no value in is drafting a one legged ILB who can't cover at 125. I would have taken a chance on a day 2 talent in CB Robinson LSU at 125. Robinson has everything it takes to be a very good press CB in this league. A top 40 talent at 125.

 

Yes he has off field issues. It would be a risk but Morrison's health is a bigger risk. 2 knee surgeries I see no reason to think his body will suddenly hold up. 

 

If you want something safer at 125 Booker/Dixon were both there. Booker was the 2nd best back in the draft to me and fits our O perfectly. Judon Hall etc a lot of different ways to go. I'd be surprised if Morrison makes the roster unless he is stashed on the. IR. 

 

I have no problem not moving up for Spence or Correra. If Spence was what many on the board have convinced themselves he is he would have been gone in the 1st. He's slow doesn't have the speed for edge. 

 

Green is going to be better sooner than people think. No way Cash is better. Why take Fackrel in the 2nd he was there in the 3rd? Whitehair was over hyped IMO. No problem passing on him.

 

I am getting over taking a C at 18 and warming up to this draft. The only pick I really just don't like is the Morrison pick. I would have went a different direction in a couple of spots but Morrison was just bad. 

 

 

 

 

Grigson and Pagano seem confident in Morrisons health. Many of the reports I've read about him are positive. Analysts seem to think that while he's not an amazing athlete he's a very good football player. 

 

Only time will tell but writing him off before we even get to Rookie minicamp is absurd. 

 

Just out of curiosity, have you seen him play?

[Gavin]

Because we preferred a day 3 Safety is the simple and correct answer

[NewColtsFan]

14 minutes ago, Gavin said:

Because we preferred a day 3 Safety is the simple and correct answer

 

Wait?     What?

 

Who is a Day 3 Safety?       Green?

 

Other than you, who has him mocked as a Day 3 pick?

 

I think the answer is...........     no one.

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, akcolt said:

There are two things I question in this draft. First taking Clark. He a good value and will be a fine OT maybe even on the left side. He's a guy who I don't see playing much this year. We take him  over Jenkins and Fackrell in the 3rd. Etheir OLB would have helped immediatley at a position of need. We have heard for months we are good at OT.

 

The biggest head scratcher for me and a pick I see no value in is drafting a one legged ILB who can't cover at 125. I would have taken a chance on a day 2 talent in CB Robinson LSU at 125. Robinson has everything it takes to be a very good press CB in this league. A top 40 talent at 125.

 

Yes he has off field issues. It would be a risk but Morrison's health is a bigger risk. 2 knee surgeries I see no reason to think his body will suddenly hold up. 

 

If you want something safer at 125 Booker/Dixon were both there. Booker was the 2nd best back in the draft to me and fits our O perfectly. Judon Hall etc a lot of different ways to go. I'd be surprised if Morrison makes the roster unless he is stashed on the. IR. 

 

I have no problem not moving up for Spence or Correra. If Spence was what many on the board have convinced themselves he is he would have been gone in the 1st. He's slow doesn't have the speed for edge. 

 

Green is going to be better sooner than people think. No way Cash is better. Why take Fackrel in the 2nd he was there in the 3rd? Whitehair was over hyped IMO. No problem passing on him.

 

I am getting over taking a C at 18 and warming up to this draft. The only pick I really just don't like is the Morrison pick. I would have went a different direction in a couple of spots but Morrison was just bad. 

 

 

 

 

 

Look at the video of Grigson and Pagano after Day 3.

 

They think Morrison is a complete steal.     They LOVE the guy.     Say he's healthy and plays much, MUCH faster than he times.     I think Morrison is one of their favorite picks of this draft.

 

Watch the video.....    see what they say about Morrison....   then get back to me....

 

As for Clark vs Jenkins and Fackrell....    Clark has a huge ceiling,  much, much higher than Jenkins and Fackrell.     They're looking long term and not short term.

 

Hey,  it's their jobs on the line and they took two long term projects in Green and Clark.      They must really believe in those guys.    I think the front office gets the benefit of the doubt on these picks.....     until those guys demonstrate otherwise...

 

[SP_21]

20 minutes ago, Gavin said:

Because we preferred a day 3 Safety is the simple and correct answer

Come on now... TJ Green, while not a player many/any of us wanted in the 2nd, was projected much higher than day 3. 

 

Green has tons of potential. Why don't we let Rookie Minicamp play out before we rag on him. 

[Gavin]

6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Wait?     What?

 

Who is a Day 3 Safety?       Green?

 

Other than you, who has him mocked as a Day 3 pick?

 

I think the answer is...........     no one.

 

 

I wont get into this back and forth with you. To you an analyst is always right over a fan even if that fan has shown grades on a prospect by PFF (Who's backed up by the combined 400+ years experience of the Coaches Network) and does his own research on what to look for when watching tapes/film/games on a prospect. The kid was not projected near the 2nd round till he ran his 40. Then he ran the 40 and his stock soared. I believe he will develop and hopefully play very well or even great for us when he gets the chance but right now he is more of a projection based on measurable and some good but a lot of bad film

[crestmount]

I would have loved to see Whitehair here, but Grigs and Pagano didn't--maybe they know something that we don't.  And that is why they are doing their jobs, earning the big bucks, and I'm just a bus driver earning the scraps from under the table.

[akcolt]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Look at the video of Grigson and Pagano after Day 3.

 

They think Morrison is a complete steal.     They LOVE the guy.     Say he's healthy and plays much, MUCH faster than he times.     I think Morrison is one of their favorite picks of this draft.

 

Watch the video.....    see what they say about Morrison....   then get back to me....

 

As for Clark vs Jenkins and Fackrell....    Clark has a huge ceiling,  much, much higher than Jenkins and Fackrell.     They're looking long term and not short term.

 

Hey,  it's their jobs on the line and they took two long term projects in Green and Clark.      They must really believe in those guys.    I think the front office gets the benefit of the doubt on these picks.....     until those guys demonstrate otherwise...

 

I don't have a problem with Green. I think he will see the field sooner than many on here think. I thought we would come out of this draft with a S. I felt like we needed to. I said before the draftt I thought S was an underrated group. We worked out enough Safties  I trust Pagano and Co.got it right.

 

I think Clark has a very high ceiling too. He was great value in the 3rd. I think he could play either T spot eventually. He's not ready right now. I just don't get the inderstand the pick. We signed Castonzo to a big contract. Reitz was ranked in the top 15 by PFF and we supposedly love Good.

 

All that being said we draftt Clark with Jenkins and Fackrell on the board. Keep in mind our only 3 OLB's are all over 30. I would have taken Jenkins. He's ready to contribute now. I think he's underrated as a pash rusher and sets a strong edge. 

 

Morrison is the pick I really have a problem with. Yes I have seen him play. They guys knees are shot. He's had 2 surgeries already. He is undersized, struggles in space, lacks strength,vision and is a liability in coverage. I did not see anyone who had him going early day 3. The 6-7  round is where most projected. He makes a huge hit once in a while and plays with an attitude. 

 

There were a lot more talented players there at 125 without the injury history. I have never been a fan of drafting a player who couldn't stay healthy in college.

 

If we wanted to gamble Robinson CB from LSU was the perfect gamble.The kid is a day 2 talent that slide because of off the field problems. He is a long atheltic corner with a ton of talent who excels in press coverage. If this kid matures and gets his off the field issues squared away he could be a #1 CB for someone. I think Robinson maturing is more likely than Morrison suddenly staying healthy. 

 

If we wanted a safer pick Booker/Dixon were both there. I think Booker will end up being the second best back in this draft. Judon was their along with a few other guys. I don't see the value in Morrison at 125. We probably could have got him in the 7th with his injury history and off field issues.