Rodney Harrison blah blah blah. Is it WEEK 6 yet?

[Shane Bond]

Good coaches are not predicated on being blustery but being good at what they do and Dungy was a top notch coach and will be in the Hall and Caldwell has been successful no matter where he is gone.

It was Caldwell's timeout blunder for Colts loss to Jets in the playoffs. And his coaching during the SB was absolutely atrocious.

[Cynjin]

well to be honest  . . .  was on coaching staffs that have done the following:

 

2009 Head coach colts 14-0, (14-2 overall) AFC champion, SB appearance 

2010 Head coach colts 10-6, with several injuries on the team

2012 QB coach/OC Ravens 10-6, SB champion

2014 Head Coach Lions 11-5, playoff berth, best lion record in 13 years, 2nd best record in 44 years. 

 

nice 5 year run no?

 

And to add to the above he was the QB/Assistant coach for the colts 2002-2008.

You forgot the 2-14 record in 2011 & his record as head coach at Wake Forest where he had one season above .500 in eight tries.

In 2012 he was not a head coach, so you can throw that out and if past is prologue with Caldwell, the Lions should be 9-7 or 8-8 this year.

[Cynjin]

Please detail where it is wrong.

See post above to Yehoodi.

[amfootball]

You forgot the 2-14 record in 2011 & his record as head coach at Wake Forest where he had one season above .500 in eight tries.

In 2012 he was not a head coach, so you can throw that out and if past is prologue with Caldwell, the Lions should be 9-7 or 8-8 this year.

You are kidding right? 2011 when Manning did not pay and his FO had no feasible back up QB whatsoever.

 

And you are discrediting for a future performance that has no happened? Ok.

[Jason_]

You are kidding right? 2011 when Manning did not pay and his FO had no feasible back up QB whatsoever.

 

And you are discrediting for a future performance that has no happened? Ok.

 

You mean 2011, when Caldwell/Christiansen insisted on having Kerry Collins and Curtis Painter try to run the Peyton Manning style of offense and didn't change anything about the offense to account for Manning not playing until week 13 when they finally switched from Painter to Orlovsky?  Yep, that's the one.

[amfootball]

You mean 2011, when Caldwell/Christiansen insisted on having Kerry Collins and Curtis Painter try to run the Peyton Manning style of offense and didn't change anything about the offense to account for Manning not playing until week 13 when they finally switched from Painter to Orlovsky?  Yep, that's the one.

If you want to blame the HC for a team that was completely predicated on Manning then go ahead. But his injury happened late in the off-season which left the Colts scrambling for a QB with the aging Collins as pretty much the only QB left. And as I have said before, once the Colts were 0-8, 0-9, the FO pulled the plug to get Luck so again not sure how that is Caldwell's fault ..

[Shane Bond]

If you want to blame the HC for a team that was completely predicated on Manning then go ahead. But his injury happened late in the off-season which left the Colts scrambling for a QB with the aging Collins as pretty much the only QB left. And as I have said before, once the Colts were 0-8, 0-9, the FO pulled the plug to get Luck so again not sure how that is Caldwell's fault ..

Do you have proof for the pulled the plug line?. Did you even watch any of the colts games to make this claim?.

[Cynjin]

You are kidding right? 2011 when Manning did not pay and his FO had no feasible back up QB whatsoever.

 

And you are discrediting for a future performance that has no happened? Ok.

What was the Pats record when Brady got hurt and had Cassel as the back up?

Apparently you missed where I said "if past is prologue with Caldwell".

[Cynjin]

But his injury happened late in the off-season which left the Colts scrambling ..

This is also not true.

[Cynjin]

And as I have said before, once the Colts were 0-8, 0-9, the FO pulled the plug to get Luck so again not sure how that is Caldwell's fault ..

Also, completely false.

[amfootball]

What was the Pats record when Brady got hurt and had Cassel as the back up?

Apparently you missed where I said "if past is prologue with Caldwell".

That is more of a reflection of team building than coaching. The Pats have never been predicated on Brady. They have always built their teams from the lines out. Indy was totally predicated on Manning which is why they struggled so mightily as well as the state of the team overall which was not good in 2011. Even with Manning that team would have struggled.

[Yehoodi]

You forgot the 2-14 record in 2011 & his record as head coach at Wake Forest where he had one season above .500 in eight tries.

In 2012 he was not a head coach, so you can throw that out and if past is prologue with Caldwell, the Lions should be 9-7 or 8-8 this year.

 

Agreed he did not have a stellar career at Wake Forest, but as his involvement in the NFL coaching scene he has done well.  Time will tell how Detroit does moving forward and he will be able to add or subtract from his resume.  Regardless he has had a nice run in the NFL coaching ranks to date.

 

And no I did not forget 2-14, as a policy I do not factor that into conversation one way or the other.  

[Superman]

Agreed he did not have a stellar career at Wake Forest, but as his involvement in the NFL coaching scene he has done well.  Time will tell how Detroit does moving forward and he will be able to add or subtract from his resume.  Regardless he has had a nice run in the NFL coaching ranks to date.

 

And no I did not forget 2-14, as a policy I do not factor that into conversation one way or the other.

 

Which makes zero sense.

[Yehoodi]

It was Caldwell's timeout blunder for Colts loss to Jets in the playoffs. And his coaching during the SB was absolutely atrocious.

 

Blunder?, he gave his team a chance to make a play.  The jets were content to sit on the ball and kick a FG and win the game.  Caldwell realized this and instead of sitting on his brains and watching the Jets kick a FG to win the game, he decided to be aggressive and give his team a chance to do something about it and knock them out of FG range.  It did not happen so be it, but not calling a TO and watch the jets kick a FG to win in are in the same position anyway.   

[Yehoodi]

Which makes zero sense.

 

Look, lets just leave it at that, okay? fair enough?

[Superman]

Look, lets just leave it at that, okay? fair enough?

 

Yeah, it's whatever. Just know that you've undermined your own standing on this topic if you're just going to ignore an entire season for no reason.

[Archer]

And as I have said before, once the Colts were 0-8, 0-9, the FO pulled the plug to get Luck so again not sure how that is Caldwell's fault ..

 

I still can't believe that anyone thinks this is true.  But it is apparently what you want to believe.  Bottom line: anyone who could have pulled off the "Suck for Luck" strategy was fired due to the poor 2011 campaign.  HC, GM, OC, DC...all gone.  The only stretch of a scenario you can come up with is that Irsay ordered Polian to tank, and then fired him after the season.  Not a wise move, and I wouldn't expect Polian to keep quiet about it.  No, there's no way the front office could have pulled off the strategy...

[Jason_]

If you want to blame the HC for a team that was completely predicated on Manning then go ahead. But his injury happened late in the off-season which left the Colts scrambling for a QB with the aging Collins as pretty much the only QB left. And as I have said before, once the Colts were 0-8, 0-9, the FO pulled the plug to get Luck so again not sure how that is Caldwell's fault ..

Reread my post and this time try to comprehend it

[amfootball]

I still can't believe that anyone thinks this is true.  But it is apparently what you want to believe. 

Yeah, we can just agree to disagree on this one.

[Shane Bond]

Blunder?, he gave his team a chance to make a play.  The jets were content to sit on the ball and kick a FG and win the game.  Caldwell realized this and instead of sitting on his brains and watching the Jets kick a FG to win the game, he decided to be aggressive and give his team a chance to do something about it and knock them out of FG range.  It did not happen so be it, but not calling a TO and watch the jets kick a FG to win in are in the same position anyway.   

Ok, so you didn't watch the game. Let me help you.

 

When Caldwell called the timeout, Jets were not in the FG range. Caldwell took a timeout and gave a chance for Jets to regroup and gave time. Sanchez completed a 18 yards completion after to Braylon Edwards which put them in FG range.

[Shane Bond]

Yeah, we can just agree to disagree on this one.

You are yet to show any evidence to back up your non stop garbage.

[Cynjin]

Agreed he did not have a stellar career at Wake Forest, but as his involvement in the NFL coaching scene he has done well.  Time will tell how Detroit does moving forward and he will be able to add or subtract from his resume.  Regardless he has had a nice run in the NFL coaching ranks to date.

 

And no I did not forget 2-14, as a policy I do not factor that into conversation one way or the other.

He may be a fine asst coach, but as a head coach he has yet to show an ability to be even average.

[Yehoodi]

Ok, so you didn't watch the game. Let me help you.

 

When Caldwell called the timeout, Jets were not in the FG range. Caldwell took a timeout and gave a chance for Jets to regroup and gave time. Sanchez completed a 18 yards completion after to Braylon Edwards which put them in FG range.

 

What?

 

There were on the 32 yard line and were milling around to run the clock down to kick a 49 yard FG, what game where you watching?  If the colts make a play they knock them out of FG range.  Please.

[Shane Bond]

What?

There were on the 32 yard line and were milling around to run the clock down to kick a 49 yard FG, what game where you watching? If the colts make a play they knock them out of FG range. Please.

That was after everything I mentioned. Wake up.

[Cynjin]

That is more of a reflection of team building than coaching. The Pats have never been predicated on Brady. They have always built their teams from the lines out. Indy was totally predicated on Manning which is why they struggled so mightily as well as the state of the team overall which was not good in 2011. Even with Manning that team would have struggled.

Exactly what are you saying? Is Brady a system QB? Is Brady not the best of all time? If it was/is more about the team than Brady, that diminishes what Brady has accomplished.

[Yehoodi]

He may be a fine asst coach, but as a head coach he has yet to show an ability to be even average.

 

In regard to his NFL career, we not going to give him 2014?  Best Lions record in 13 years and 2nd best record in the last 44 seasons for the Lions?

 

We can parse his colts' resume how we each wish, but how we take away 2014? 

[Yehoodi]

That was after everything I mentioned. Wake up.

 

So you would rather sit back and watch a team take a 49 yard FG with no time on the clock?   

 

If that was such a "difficult" position why did not the Jets line up a run another play to get more yardage?  If it is was such a "difficult" situation why were the Jets content to sit on it when there was plenty of time to run a play or two?

 

You must remember the Jets not only had to run that extra play but also thereafter still make any subsequent FG attempt.  By calling the TO forced the jets to run and execute both plays.  Not all decisions end up going the way one wants.   

 

Maybe you sit back and the balls goes wide right on a 49 FGA, maybe there is a sack and the colts win, maybe there is a offensive penalty, maybe there is a pick like we saw in SB 49, maybe there is a fumble, maybe they completed a pass for 18 yards and so on.   I do not fault Coach for having faith in his players to make a play to win the game as opposed to sit back relatively helpless as the jets attempt a 49 FG.

[Superman]

In regard to his NFL career, we not going to give him 2014?  Best Lions record in 13 years and 2nd best record in the last 44 seasons for the Lions?

 

We can parse his colts' resume how we each wish, but how we take away 2014? 

 

We don't have to take away 2014, but just because he did a good job in 2014 doesn't mean he was a good coach in 2010.

[Shane Bond]

So you would rather sit back and watch a team take a 49 yard FG with no time on the clock?

If that was such a "difficult" position why did not the Jets line up a run another play to get more yardage? If it is was such a "difficult" situation why were the Jets content to sit on it when there was plenty of time to run a play or two?

You must remember the Jets not only had to run that extra play but also thereafter still make any subsequent FG attempt. By calling the TO forced the jets to run and execute both plays. Not all decisions end up going the way one wants.

Maybe you sit back and the balls goes wide right on a 49 FGA, maybe there is a sack and the colts win, maybe there is a offensive penalty, maybe there is a pick like we saw in SB 49, maybe there is a fumble, maybe they completed a pass for 18 yards and so on. I do not fault Coach for having faith in his players to make a play to win the game as opposed to sit back relatively helpless as the jets attempt a 49 FG.

There is a may be in everything.

Jets didn't run, they threw for 18 yards. The momentum at that time was favoring Colts. Timeout killed it.

Momentum cannot be quantified. It has to be experienced.

[Cynjin]

In regard to his NFL career, we not going to give him 2014?  Best Lions record in 13 years and 2nd best record in the last 44 seasons for the Lions?

 

We can parse his colts' resume how we each wish, but how we take away 2014?

You can give him 2014, but he also went 14-2 his first year with the Colts and then proceeded to go 10-6 and 2-14 in years two and three. That is why I wrote before that given his track record, the possibility of a 9-7 or 8-8 season exists for this year.

[Yehoodi]

We don't have to take away 2014, but just because he did a good job in 2014 doesn't mean he was a good coach in 2010.

 

hmm . . . in 2010 the colts were racked with injuries and they went 10-6.  Surely Peyton had a lot to do with this end result, but I think we can give some props to the coach for helping the team go 10-6 with all of those injuries.  my two cents.

 

And yes, it will be good to see more data points out of Detroit so we can get a better gauge on things.   Time will tell if 2014 is a flunk or a support for other good years in Detroit.

[Superman]

So you would rather sit back and watch a team take a 49 yard FG with no time on the clock?   

 

If that was such a "difficult" position why did not the Jets line up a run another play to get more yardage?  If it is was such a "difficult" situation why were the Jets content to sit on it when there was plenty of time to run a play or two?

 

You must remember the Jets not only had to run that extra play but also thereafter still make any subsequent FG attempt.  By calling the TO forced the jets to run and execute both plays.  Not all decisions end up going the way one wants.   

 

Maybe you sit back and the balls goes wide right on a 49 FGA, maybe there is a sack and the colts win, maybe there is a offensive penalty, maybe there is a pick like we saw in SB 49, maybe there is a fumble, maybe they completed a pass for 18 yards and so on.   I do not fault Coach for having faith in his players to make a play to win the game as opposed to sit back relatively helpless as the jets attempt a 49 FG.

 

Umm, yes, I'd rather let Nick Folk kick from 49 yards out with no time on the clock -- he had missed from 40+ several times that year -- than encourage the Jets to try to get closer, which is exactly what they did. It was a bad timeout, no matter how you slice it.

 

The major failure was giving up a long kickoff return. Can't directly blame Caldwell for that, but he didn't manage the game correctly after that.

[Yehoodi]

There is a may be in everything.

Jets didn't run, they threw for 18 yards. The momentum at that time was favoring Colts. Timeout killed it.

Momentum cannot be quantified. It has to be experienced.

 

I did not say to run another run play, run a play.  How did the colts have the momentum when, on the verge of winning with under a minute to go, the ST gave up a big return to midfield, a few plays later the jets are on the colts 32?  At that point is not the momentum in the favor of the jets?

[Superman]

hmm . . . in 2010 the colts were racked with injuries and they went 10-6.  Surely Peyton had a lot to do with this end result, but I think we can give some props to the coach for helping the team go 10-6 with all of those injuries.  my two cents.

 

And yes, it will be good to see more data points out of Detroit so we can get a better gauge on things.   Time will tell if 2014 is a flunk or a support for other good years in Detroit.

 

Anyone who watched the Colts in 2010 knows that the team was falling apart already. Not all on Caldwell, as the roster was pitiful, but he and Coyer did a terrible job making any adjustments on defense, and that theme played out even more vividly in 2011. As a matter of fact, this fatal flaw was evident in the second half of the SB against the Saints.

 

I don't understand why it's so important to you to try to give credit to a coaching staff that wasn't very good, to try to explain away all their faults. They just weren't good, and it showed in how they managed games and the season overall. With Manning sidelined in 2011, all their faults were exposed plainly; that team wasn't going to contend for the playoffs without Manning regardless, but they didn't have to start out 0-13. A good coaching staff wouldn't have let that happen.

[Shane Bond]

I did not say to run another run play, run a play. How did the colts have the momentum when, on the verge of winning with under a minute to go, the ST gave up a big return to midfield, a few plays later the jets are on the colts 32? At that point is not the momentum in the favor of the jets?

Yehoodi, which part are you not understanding?.

Timeout helped them regroup and make a play and get to 32 yards. Without that timeout, Jets would have been forced to make a play in a hurry or hit a FG.

See the post above for further detail.

[Shane Bond]

I don't understand why it's so important to you to try to give credit to a coaching staff that wasn't very good, to try to explain away all their faults.

You know why.

To blame Manning.

[Gramz]

No, it is not week 6 yet.

YAY we have lots of weeks left to discuss this.

/sarcasm

[amfootball]

Exactly what are you saying? Is Brady a system QB? Is Brady not the best of all time? If it was/is more about the team than Brady, that diminishes what Brady has accomplished.

I don't see the correlation. The Patriots philosophy of team building stands on its own merit in this era of the cap and FA. I think as long as Belichick is driving the ship and coaching the Pats will enjoy success and never have to endure a 2-14 season. That being said, they have been extraordinary with Brady at the helm and I don't see that continuing after he retires. I do hope I am wrong though.

[Yehoodi]

Umm, yes, I'd rather let Nick Folk kick from 49 yards out with no time on the clock -- he had missed from 40+ several times that year -- than encourage the Jets to try to get closer, which is exactly what they did. It was a bad timeout, no matter how you slice it.

 

The major failure was giving up a long kickoff return. Can't directly blame Caldwell for that, but he didn't manage the game correctly after that.

 

Yes, the STs put the colts in a bind which was especially frustrating after Peyton drove them down for a go ahead FG that should of been game over at that point.

 

I agree with you that I would also be content with a 49 FGA as the opponent, but at the same time I am not going to hold it against the head coach for forcing the jets to run a play.  Bottom line the jets did not have enough faith in their offense to run another play.  And yes Folk was around 50% outside 40 yards so the jets would have to gain like 10 yards to increase their chance beyond 50%, which would require something beyond a safe two hands on the ball run play.  Something that might likely result in a negative play and why the jets perhaps were not going to run one.

 

The jets were content not to take that chance and coach Caldwell jumped on the jets hesitation.  As they were on the edge of FG range at 49 yards a negative play might take them effectively outside FG range and basically game over.  Sometimes teams make plays in the final minute like McGinest week 1 in 2004 with a sack and Butler this year.  Sometimes the other guy makes the play.

 

I look at all coaches decisions the same, like two of BB decisions, the forced safety in Denver in '03 and 4&2 in '09.  Both were not the orthodox decisions and could have gone either way.  But both, like Caldwell, were made in the hope, percentage wise overall, we have a better chance to win.  Sometimes your folks make plays, sometime the other guys folks make play.   What irks me is folks will call BB a genius in '03 but him a bonehead in '09 and Caldwell in '10.  I other hand view those particular calls the same and don't waffle based on the result.  

[Yehoodi]

Yehoodi, which part are you not understanding?.

Timeout helped them regroup and make a play and get to 32 yards. Without that timeout, Jets would have been forced to make a play in a hurry or hit a FG.

See the post above for further detail.

 

Make a play in a hurry?, there was 29 seconds on the clock when the TO was called by the colts.   Where is the rush to run a play with 29 seconds on the clock and the jets had a TO that could be used if one wish to run a play?   they had only just run like a 2 yard run play so all of the players were at or near the line of scrimmage.  The jets had two simple options: run the clock down, call a TO, kick FG, or with 29 seconds to go on the clock line up run a play and call a TO, FGA.  Two minute offense folks. 

 

Yes agreed, it did give the jets a chance to "regroup" but it also gave the colts D a chance to regroup.  If someone make a plays (or fails to do so), its happens.  I really do not hold it against the decision if the decision had purpose in the first place.  Like I said in my prior post, but did not expand to have a lengthy post, but in BB decisions plays were made and not made that made the decision to look "smart" or "stupid". 

 

For example in the Denver game, if the Denver ST does not screw up on the free kick perhaps we do not win that game (the ball ended up on their 12 yard line or something on the free kick), and have to explain why we gave away 2 free points.  In the 4&2 game, if Meriweather lets the RB score we get the ball back with about a minute to go an only down by one.  (which would of been the third chance our team had to win on the 4&2 play with the 4th down conversion being the first and stopping colts on downs at the 29 being the second).    The fact that Meriweater forded us our 3rd opportunity to win that game or the Denver returner screwed up the return by missing the free kick causing the ball to end up inside their 20 does not really change the initial decision by BB.   So some will call BB a "genius" in '03 but yet him a bonehead in '09 and Caldwell in '10.   

 

I view all the calls as roughly the same, one make a call that he thinks increases the chances for his team to win.  If I agree with that, which I do on those cases, I am not going to subsequently hold it against the coach if things go bad.

 

Its like the last SB, with the down, distance, time and TO situation, Pete Carroll wanted to run a pass play lest he leaves a down on the board (which would of happened if they just ran two run plays and failed as they only had one TO in their pocket).  So Pete Carroll understandably so choose a quick pass play and two run plays thereafter as opposed to just two run plays.   As there never has been a pick all year in that type of pass play most folks would say it was safe.  If one were to ask folks on a street you have two boxes containing plays to win a SB, one box contains two runs plays and other box contains the exact same two run plays and an extra pass play which has never resulted in a pick all season, most folks would choose box number two.   Pete Carroll did too and yet folks think he is a bonehead, go figure? ? ? ?  

 

Players make players but it does not change the initial chances in the two boxes above, it happens.   

 

And again, I may too have let the jets bleed the clock and kick the FG from 49 yards, but at the same time I see where coach was coming from with his decision.   Ball at the edge of FG range, they don't want to run a play, they likely need 10+ yards to increase their chances, we make them run another play and we can knocked them out of FG range if they try to set up a play that goes more than 10 yards.