All-time TD pass king: Peyton or Brees?

[Jules]

You have the answer in your post itself ( the bolded one ). It was quite evident who was calling the shots in the Saints offense when Sean Payton was missing.

 

It is more then fair to blame Brees if you choose to at times for the season they missed the playoffs. Not like they were going anywhere anyway if they got in though.....might have better to sit out since the team was a mess. That D was God awful LOL.

 

But, if we can blame Brees for that season or a Romo for the Cowboys messes then I certainly have a right to criticize Manning/Brady as well for playing so badly in some big games and especially in their SB losses when more is expected.

[Shane Bond]

It is more then fair to blame Brees if you choose to at times for the season they missed the playoffs. Not like they were going anywhere anyway if they got in though.....might have better to sit out since the team was a mess. That D was God awful LOL.

 

But, if we can blame Brees for that season or a Romo for the Cowboys messes then I certainly have a right to criticize Manning/Brady as well for playing so badly in some big games and especially in their SB losses when more is expected.

 

Well either you pretend not to understand or you just really dont.

 

Making to the SB and not making playoffs - big difference. When you want to be compared in par with Elites, act like one and Brees had his chance.

 

Sure, you can blame all you want for Manning and Brady, they have a combined 8 SB appearances. Keep blaming.

[Jules]

Well either you pretend not to understand or you just really dont.

 

Making to the SB and not making playoffs - big difference. When you want to be compared in par with Elites, act like one and Brees had his chance.

 

Sure, you can blame all you want for Manning and Brady, they have a combined 8 SB appearances. Keep blaming.

 

I get it Shane I get it lol. And it's fun for me too in these QB threads since I am not really emotionally invested in any of these guys personally. I try to stick up for the picked on guys at times too in life.

 

But, in a way it means little to me to just get to the big dance too and lose it......it really does. Sorry. A hard fought SB loss is one thing but not embarrassment.

 

And we missed the playoffs before too with Peyton Manning lol. But, that was a while ago. I don't think missing the playoffs once or twice or whatever even hugely tarnishes a so called legacy.

 

And as for the elite debate......ugh. That just makes no sense to me at times. It's like you can be called elite just because you pad stats in this league vs. bad teams every season. I don't always get it. Hell there are times I would take an Eli or a Big Ben over any of the "elites" if I needed a big game win. They improvise better and seem more collected in big moments......

 

Besides, many actually put Brees and Rodgers a lot in this so called elite group. I don't think it's just reserved for two men......if it is then we are basically a two party dictatorship in football LOL.

 

But, I am bowing out now to go get back to work in a few hours or so......I am pretty much done. Honestly all these QBs are good. Who gets what record I have no idea but I am sure they will all end their careers with huge numbers. I just hope they don't play "too long" just to chase stuff.....

[Shane Bond]

I get it Shane I get it lol. And it's fun for me too in these QB threads since I am not really emotionally invested in any of these guys personally. I try to stick up for the picked on guys at times too in life.

 

But, in a way it means little to me to just get to the big dance too and lose it......it really does. Sorry. A hard fought SB loss is one thing but not embarrassment.

 

And we missed the playoffs before too with Peyton Manning lol. But, that was a while ago. I don't think missing the playoffs once or twice or whatever even hugely tarnishes a so called legacy.

 

And as for the elite debate......ugh. That just makes no sense to me at times. It's like you can be called elite just because you pad stats in this league vs. bad teams every season. I don't always get it. Hell there are times I would take an Eli or a Big Ben over any of the "elites" if I needed a big game win. They improvise better and seem more collected in big moments......

 

Besides, many actually put Brees and Rodgers a lot in this so called elite group. I don't think it's just reserved for two men......if it is then we are basically a two party dictatorship in football LOL.

 

But, I am bowing out now to go get back to work in a few hours or so......I am pretty much done. Honestly all these QBs are good. Who gets what record I have no idea but I am sure they will all end their careers with huge numbers. I just hope they don't play "too long" just to chase stuff.....

LOL go get some sleep. Have a nice day .

[sweetsurrender]

I don't agree with the cold weather logic you are presenting. Manning didn't have a choice who drafted him. It happend to be a dome?. For the record, last year in NE, box was empty and they ran the ball. When they needed a TD, he throwed some clutch ones. Also what you do not like to mention is how Manning throwed for over 300 yards and 3 TDs in the same Ravens game. Also, go watch the Titans game last year at 18 degrees.

Are you suggesting if Manning were to be drafted by GB or NE, he wouldn't have adapted and been a bust?.

Exactly. He didn't have a choice where he was drafted which happened to be a dome team with an owner who surrounded him with top tier talent every year on the offensive side of the ball. When talking about most TDs of all time, of course Manning's numbers are influenced heavily by playing perfect conditions for 8+ games every season. And I am not saying he has never performed well outside or in poor conditions but if he had to play his entire career in a cold weather city his stats would be less. How much is debatable but for sure less. Your last sentence is comical.

[Shane Bond]

Exactly. He didn't have a choice where he was drafted which happened to be a dome team with an owner who surrounded him with top tier talent every year on the offensive side of the ball. When talking about most TDs of all time, of course Manning's numbers are influenced heavily by playing perfect conditions for 8+ games every season. And I am not saying he has never performed well outside or in poor conditions but if he had to play his entire career in a cold weather city his stats would be less. How much is debatable but for sure less. Your last sentence is comical.

If my last sentence is comical, your entire argument is.

I like how you didn't answer that still.

[amfootball]

a myth has also grown out of Drew Brees being helpless without his suspended coach..

Drew Brees (2012)

422 of 670, 5,177 yards...43 TDs and 19 interceptions...

..(of course, he didn't play defense)

Did you watch Brees that season? He looked like a chicken with his head cut off every game just winging it. His 19 picks, his second highest total of his career exemplifies that. Now that was in part because his defense was awful but many, including myself expected him to be the coach on the field and to carry the Saints at least to a wild card and they started 0-4 and finished 7-9. For sure the Saints are more about Payton and his offensive prowess than Brees but together they are a lethal combo.

[sweetsurrender]

If my last sentence is comical, your entire argument is.

I like how you didn't answer that still.

Huh? I did answer it. I said Manning's numbers would be lower if he played his entire career in a cold weather city. 

[amfootball]

If my last sentence is comical, your entire argument is.

I like how you didn't answer that still.

I think SS is saying the same thing as me that Manning's volume stats would be less not he would be less of a HoF QB. Because we all know that stats are only half the story anyways. ;)

[Shane Bond]

Huh? I did answer it. I said Manning's numbers would be lower if he played his entire career in a cold weather city. 

We dont know that, do we?.

 

We can do a lot of Ifs and buts and it will never end.

[Shane Bond]

I think SS is saying the same thing as me that Manning's volume stats would be less not he would be less of a HoF QB. Because we all know that stats are only half the story anyways. ;)

Discussion is about Manning vs Brees not Manning's HOF credentials.

 

Sure, Terry Bradshaw has 4 SBs too. Rings are just half the story without a good team and coach.

[amfootball]

Discussion is about Manning vs Brees not Manning's HOF credentials.

 

Sure, Terry Bradshaw has 4 SBs too. Rings are just half the story without a good team and coach.

Right. That is what has been discussed. Manning's TDs vs Brees and the other QBs on the top 5 list all time. The point is Manning's numbers would be lower if he played in a cold weather city like Favre or Brady. You can disagree as no one knows for sure but playing in perfect conditions helps the passing game the most. No one is challenging Manning as a QB just his volume stats which are a factor of his team, coach and where he played the majority of his career.

[sweetsurrender]

We dont know that, do we?.

 

We can do a lot of Ifs and buts and it will never end.

We do know it is easier to throw a football inside.

[chad72]

I know one thing for sure. Sean Payton would prefer that Brees not average 40 TDs a year if he could do anything about it so that he can get the Saints back to a well rounded offense like when they won the SB (something that goes unnoticed).

 

I am not so sure with Fox. He knows he cannot get a run oriented offense with Peyton, thus he seems like the coach that will go along with the ride and put it in Peyton's hands more often than not. 78% to 22% pass to run in the SB, enough said, abandoned the run way too early, IMO. A good coach would have reined in those 3 WR formations and just said "lets stay patient, if we give them long fields, they will punt and we can keep it at 0-8 for a while, negate the NASCAR package with 2 TEs and more running even if it means Wes Welker is not on the field and then take our chances". If the Patriots should have learnt anything from playing the Giants, it is that both times they relied on 3 WR formations heavily with Wes Welker in it in 2007 & 2011. The early SB winning days for the Patriots came on the heels of lots of wham blocking from TEs and multiple TE formations even against good Ds. Clock control, running the ball to control tempo and less turnovers are more important than anything else in winning playoff games. Heck, the Giants came in as 32nd ranked run O in the regular season in 2011, then ran very well to dominate time of possession in the playoffs and won it all. You have to be able and willing to change things up even if it is slightly out of your character and element in the playoffs.

 

Hey, the Colts kept it at 0-12 for a while before we started doing something in our Seahawks game. Seahawks seem like blazing starters in games. If you obtain a "close" push, or a close deficit early on, you can wear them down in a 60 minute game, IMO. Have to stay patient with your 2 TE formations and force those safeties in the box more.

 

So, in a nutshell, it is more likely for Sean Payton to rein in Brees' for the sake of a rounded offense than for Fox to rein in Peyton. Thus, Peyton will be TD king when it is all said and done IF HE PLAYS OUT HIS CONTRACT TILL 2016, that is my reasoning for it. Having said that, Brees is more likely to get his second ring than Peyton if the Saints develop a well rounded offense.

[Shane Bond]

We do know it is easier to throw a football inside.

Do you even understand what we discussed so far.

 

Is Denver inside?. 

[sweetsurrender]

Do you even understand what we discussed so far.

 

Is Denver inside?. 

He didn't play the first 13 years of his career in Denver and Denver is not a cold weather city.

[jvan1973]

He didn't play the first 13 years of his career in Denver and Denver is not a cold weather city.

the point he is making is he had the best statistical season in Denver. The fact that he played in a dome has no bearing on last season

[Qwiz]

[sweetsurrender]

the point he is making is he had the best statistical season in Denver. The fact that he played in a dome has no bearing on last season

I get that. But the temps in Denver last year including playoffs were no where what a cold city would have been. In Jan he was played two games at 60 degrees and sunny. That is my point. Over the first 13 years of his career in an outdoor, cold city his stats would have been less. I am not saying it would have been drastic but for sure less.

[oldunclemark]

Did you watch Brees that season? He looked like a chicken with his head cut off every game just winging it. His 19 picks, his second highest total of his career exemplifies that. Now that was in part because his defense was awful but many, including myself expected him to be the coach on the field and to carry the Saints at least to a wild card and they started 0-4 and finished 7-9. For sure the Saints are more about Payton and his offensive prowess than Brees but together they are a lethal combo.

You know I did. We all watch Drew because of where he went to school.

He was behind in most games....His defense was bad.,,and, with all due respect, I dont think you truly expected Drew to carry the HOLA defense..

....19 interceptions isn't a lot when you are trailing in most games.....and everyone knows you're throwing into extra man defenses

Sean Payton is a proven offensive mind but again its a myth that he was lost soemwhat without his coach. Neitehr ever said that and the numbers show he wasn't just 'winging it' .....5,000 yards

[amfootball]

You know I did. We all watch Drew because of where he went to school.

He was behind in most games....His defense was bad.,,and, with all due respect, I dont think you truly expected Drew to carry the HOLA defense..

....19 interceptions isn't a lot when you are trailing in most games.....and everyone knows you're throwing into extra man defenses

Sean Payton is a proven offensive mind but again its a myth that he was lost soemwhat without his coach. Neitehr ever said that and the numbers show he wasn't just 'winging it' .....5,000 yards

Defense was bad but some of that was also the function of the offense that really looked clueless. I agree that to expect Brees to carry everything is not fair or rational but I did expect more from him. The 19 picks was awful and I think early on he really let Goodell get to him as he came across as really sour in every interview. It seemed he had a really tough time moving on from BountyGate and instead of using it for fuel the way that Pats did with Spygate in 2007, it unraveled him and the team. At least that was my take. What do you think?

[Jules]

Defense was bad but some of that was also the function of the offense that really looked clueless. I agree that to expect Brees to carry everything is not fair or rational but I did expect more from him. The 19 picks was awful and I think early on he really let Goodell get to him as he came across as really sour in every interview. It seemed he had a really tough time moving on from BountyGate and instead of using it for fuel the way that Pats did with Spygate in 2007, it unraveled him and the team. At least that was my take. What do you think?

 

I think Brees and the Saints were pretty sour as well over the bounty thing. And honestly at times I don't even blame them since I never even expected them to suspend Payton for the entire season. I expected a fine and maybe a draft pick or two but I expected more of a spygate sort of punishment.

 

Regardless, I doubt they went anywhere anyway in the postseason that year even if they got in. I also thought the refs were a tad biased against them at times that season and a few of the early games especially. I watched a lot of the Saints that year too since I was curious as to how they would deal with the adversity.

 

Some people get ticked and play better......some play worse. Some embrace the villain role better then others.

 

I hope the league doesn't try to turn the Colts into any sort of villain either since Irsay has had offseason issues of his own. And we lost our best defensive player and captain for the first 4 games.

[Valpo2004]

Did you watch Brees that season? He looked like a chicken with his head cut off every game just winging it. His 19 picks, his second highest total of his career exemplifies that. Now that was in part because his defense was awful but many, including myself expected him to be the coach on the field and to carry the Saints at least to a wild card and they started 0-4 and finished 7-9. For sure the Saints are more about Payton and his offensive prowess than Brees but together they are a lethal combo.

 

Those numbers are way too high for someone looking like a chicken with their head cut off.  

 

I think part of the problem was that if I remember right the Saints had a changing set of people who where head coach based on who came back from suspension when.  

[Valpo2004]

With the weapons Manning has in Denver he's likely to rack up a lot of TD's to make his record really hard to approach.

 

I don't expect a repeat of last season because they are facing tougher defenses, but he's still likely to throw more TD's in this season then he would on average. 

[amfootball]

Those numbers are way too high for someone looking like a chicken with their head cut off.  

 

I think part of the problem was that if I remember right the Saints had a changing set of people who where head coach based on who came back from suspension when.  

I wasn't basing it on stats but on the way the offense looked. They pretty much told Brees "here's the ball" now fling it. Of course that is to expected somewhat given Payton was gone but I expected Brees to take control more the way Peyton and Brady do at the line. And in fairness, he really is not that type of QB. He is great in his own right but there are few that can read a defense pre-snap the way Brady and Peyton can.

[MAC]

This thread has gotten predictably ridiculous in ways that I'd rather not address.

 

To the actual OP:

 

Bree's has certainly been putting up great numbers in recent years, but the bottom line is that he's still 128 TDs behind Peyton (a number far greater than the vast majority of QBs could hope to reach for their entire careers), he's reaching an age where QB's typically start to decline physically, he's far more reliant on his athleticism for his success than Peyton is, and he's physically far less imposing than Peyton.

 

In other words, while it's certainly possible for Brees to catch the record, it would likely involve Peyton retiring tomorrow and Bree's having three more great years. If Peyton has three more good years, is Bree's going to have six more great years? Assuming that he will average 40 QBs per year for the next six years (into his 40s) when he's only reached 40 twice through his prime is a bit much.

 

The fact is that if there is a QB who seems more likely to be a candidate to continue to be successful until age 45, it's Peyton, not Brees.

 

 

[Jules]

I wasn't basing it on stats but on the way the offense looked. They pretty much told Brees "here's the ball" now fling it. Of course that is to expected somewhat given Payton was gone but I expected Brees to take control more the way Peyton and Brady do at the line. And in fairness, he really is not that type of QB. He is great in his own right but there are few that can read a defense pre-snap the way Brady and Peyton can.

 

I don't think the Saints ran the ball well at all that year, I don't know the numbers from the top of my head. It was almost a screw it and sling it type of season for them.

 

Neither Brady, Manning, Brees or Rodgers or anyone is going to win the big one without a balanced attack really. Chad mentioned that up above about balance on offense. I think the Saints have been trying to get more balanced since last year and need to improve the o line/rushing attack. The 2009 Saints were pretty incredible all around on offense in terms of balance. I actually at times don't even know why looking back we were favored in that SB......

 

We can preach the QB all we want and how great they are....but without a decent enough of a run game none of them will win a ring.

 

The Colts won't either unless they can get a consistent ground game going and we ask Luck to save the day 24/7. Look at the difference last year between some of our early games when we could run the ball then later on when it fell. And Brady's run game seemed to disappear playing Denver this year in the playoffs after being able to do what they wanted vs. the Colts at times.

[Synthetic]

 

 

 

Your welcome.

 

 

Brees has never lost a playoff game at home with the Saints. We are undefeated at home in the playoffs while Peyton holds the record for getting high seeds and then choking in the first round at home with great Colts teams that no one wants to give credit to these days. Um yeah duh, those Colts teams were pretty good besides golden boy.

 

 

Brees could win 3 Super Bowls and it still wouldn't be enough to please everyone. Even when he beat Manning, it was more about Manning's bad interception rather than the guy that won the game.

[Synthetic]

I wasn't basing it on stats but on the way the offense looked. They pretty much told Brees "here's the ball" now fling it. Of course that is to expected somewhat given Payton was gone but I expected Brees to take control more the way Peyton and Brady do at the line. And in fairness, he really is not that type of QB. He is great in his own right but there are few that can read a defense pre-snap the way Brady and Peyton can.

 

 

You clearly do not even watch the Saints that much. They ran the ball pretty balanced last year, and in 2011, they tried for a balanced attack most of the season. 2010 was impossible since every RB they put on the field got hurt to the point they were down to signing free agents during the season.

 

As far as Brady reading defenses, he sure has looked hot reading them in the playoffs every year since 2009. Funny he hasn't won anything since Spy Gate, but he's still the greatest quarterback ever.

[GoPats]

For some reason the "all time TDs leader" throne seems diluted to me . I respect Favre but he showed that if you hang around long enough you can rack up some impressive numbers. In some way his longevity itself is impressive. But Manning is already the leader in most individual PER-GAME stats for QBs, which I personally find more impressive. 

[Synthetic]

Did you watch Brees that season? He looked like a chicken with his head cut off every game just winging it. His 19 picks, his second highest total of his career exemplifies that. Now that was in part because his defense was awful but many, including myself expected him to be the coach on the field and to carry the Saints at least to a wild card and they started 0-4 and finished 7-9. For sure the Saints are more about Payton and his offensive prowess than Brees but together they are a lethal combo.

 

 

Did you watch Brees this season? I have to ask cause you sound pretty clueless. The Saints tried to run a balanced offense for half the season and it worked to a degree with the running game. Brees still threw for 5,000 yards considering he looked like a chicken with his head cut off.

 

One thing Brees never gets credit for is how he makes B and C grade receivers look like studs out there. Outside of Graham, our WR's are not that great. But you know, when Brady don't have anyone to throw to, we get reminded of it all the time.

[Superman]

a myth has also grown out of Drew Brees being helpless without his suspended coach..

Drew Brees (2012)

422 of 670, 5,177 yards...43 TDs and 19 interceptions...

..(of course, he didn't play defense)

 

Other than those 19 picks, that would be an all-time top ten stat line. And even then, his INT % was less than 3%, which is more than decent. Like you say, that defense was terrible, but that's not Brees' fault. He played well that year.

[GoPats]

 

Brees has never lost a playoff game at home with the Saints. We are undefeated at home in the playoffs while Peyton holds the record for getting high seeds and then choking in the first round at home with great Colts teams that no one wants to give credit to these days. Um yeah duh, those Colts teams were pretty good besides golden boy.

 

 

4-1 career at home, 1-4 on the road... it's great to be tough to beat at home, but as everyone's known the past few years, to get by the Saints, all you have to do is play them in your building. (Not that the Patriots have fared a lot better away from Foxboro, but point is, the rest of the NFL sees New Orleans as a "soft" team away from the Super Dome.) 

 

That said I think New Orleans is going to be very tough to beat in '14. 

[-JJ-]

It is over rated. And i just mentioned Manning's last 2 years in Denver to show that.

 

That some games will happen to any player regardless of conditions.

yeah and he had some good days. You ain't throwing multiple TDs in blizzard or heavy wind conditions..........unless of course you're Tom Brady

[amfootball]

You clearly do not even watch the Saints that much. They ran the ball pretty balanced last year, and in 2011, they tried for a balanced attack most of the season. 2010 was impossible since every RB they put on the field got hurt to the point they were down to signing free agents during the season.

 

As far as Brady reading defenses, he sure has looked hot reading them in the playoffs every year since 2009. Funny he hasn't won anything since Spy Gate, but he's still the greatest quarterback ever.

Balanced? Why would you be balanced when your HCs main MO is to throw the ball around the park so Brees can stat pad? I do watch the Saints and they are the best home team in the NFL. I see you trumped your HOME playoff record because your road record is 1-4.

[sweetsurrender]

 

 

 

Your welcome.

 

 

Brees has never lost a playoff game at home with the Saints. We are undefeated at home in the playoffs while Peyton holds the record for getting high seeds and then choking in the first round at home with great Colts teams that no one wants to give credit to these days. Um yeah duh, those Colts teams were pretty good besides golden boy.

 

 

Brees could win 3 Super Bowls and it still wouldn't be enough to please everyone. Even when he beat Manning, it was more about Manning's bad interception rather than the guy that won the game.

The pick by Manning was horrible given tying the game was at stake. But I always thought THE play of that SB was the onside kick to start the second half. Takes guts to make that call. And wasn't Brees MVP? So he got his love.

[Superman]

Balanced? Why would you be balanced when your HCs main MO is to throw the ball around the park so Brees can stat pad? I do watch the Saints and they are the best home team in the NFL. I see you trumped your HOME playoff record because your road record is 1-4.

 

This is really silly.

[Jules]

Did you watch Brees this season? I have to ask cause you sound pretty clueless. The Saints tried to run a balanced offense for half the season and it worked to a degree with the running game. Brees still threw for 5,000 yards considering he looked like a chicken with his head cut off.

 

One thing Brees never gets credit for is how he makes B and C grade receivers look like studs out there. Outside of Graham, our WR's are not that great. But you know, when Brady don't have anyone to throw to, we get reminded of it all the time.

 

This is true, I forget about this. Brees never had the big name top receivers himself and he always shined regardless.

 

I just face the facts though.....in this world some guys will never get the credit others do get. I already expect the Colts to never get the credit they got in the Manning years even if we won 3 straight SBs because I never expect Luck to put up monster regular season numbers of the likes of Peyton.

[Jules]

Balanced? Why would you be balanced when your HCs main MO is to throw the ball around the park so Brees can stat pad? I do watch the Saints and they are the best home team in the NFL. I see you trumped your HOME playoff record because your road record is 1-4.

 

The funny thing is.....you could argue they all stat pad at times. Manning, Brees and Brady. All of them. Guilty as charged IMO. Pats have run it up people's butts at times more then anyone.

 

Rodgers is a bit different though to me since I feel they took their foot off the gas with him a lot in 2011 when he could have broken records.......

[amfootball]

This is really silly.

Ha,ha. Just a jab at Bogie as I know he hates it when anyone up here accuses Brees of stat padding.