If Its Too Dangerous For Manning, Why Is Collie Playing?

[oldunclemark]

If its ridiculous for Peyton Manning to even think about playing in 'meaningless' games when we're hopelessly out of the playoffs......

...then why is Austin Collie..who had had three concussions and could be knocked unconscious in a life-threatening fashion on any play....in the lineup?

Your thoughts....

[GoColts8818]

For the same reason Manning is going to play if the doctors clear him, the doctors cleared him but I think that was your point.

[oldunclemark]

For the same reason Manning is going to play if the doctors clear him, the doctors cleared him but I think that was your point.

In the words of Peyton Manning.....'absolutely'.

[The Fish]

I don't call in to question P's desire, but the wisdom is questionable from a health stand point, not from a business point though. I honestly think that the "who are you a bigger fan of Colts or Peyton" can of worms is open all the way. I'd say Colts understanding that it's the house Peyton built.

[GoColts8818]

I don't call in to question P's desire, but the wisdom is questionable from a health stand point, not from a business point though. I honestly think that the "who are you a bigger fan of Colts or Peyton" can of worms is open all the way. I'd say Colts understanding that it's the house Peyton built.

Why is it a questionable from a health stand point if a doctor says he's good to go? We aren't talking about rushing him back when it's boarder line that he can play or not. I think most here agree he needs to heal so he's 100% and at no greater risk of getting hurt than he normally would be playing football. If that happens and it happens be week 16 or 17 why is it questionable from a health stand point?

[oldunclemark]

I don't call in to question P's desire, but the wisdom is questionable from a health stand point, not from a business point though. I honestly think that the "who are you a bigger fan of Colts or Peyton" can of worms is open all the way. I'd say Colts understanding that it's the house Peyton built.

I'm saying that if you're cleared to play, you're cleared to play.

I just want us to win.....and let next year take care of itself....again...Collie isnt sitting

[Flash7]

It's not rediculous for Peyton Manning to think about playing in a game this year, because he's wired to always want to play. However, it would be rediculous if the team actually allowed him to play.

The only reason Manning is not on IR is so that he can practice with the team and start to get back into football shape, reestablish his timing with the receivers, and rebuilding his arm strength. The FO wants to see that he is able to make progress and evaluate him so that they know what to do with the upcoming draft.

By putting Manning in a game, you do not gain anything. You can't fairly evaluate a guy who hasn't played football for nearly a year. Of course he's going to have a bad game, and then you're left thinking that we need to move on and draft his replacement. If you don't rush things and make a proper evaluation, you would have better perspective.

As for Austin Collie, he sat out the rest of last year. He's had a lot of time to recover, and is wearing a more protective helmet design to limit the implications of impact. The FO was careful with him, as they should be with Manning.

[oldunclemark]

It's not rediculous for Peyton Manning to think about playing in a game this year, because he's wired to always want to play. However, it would be rediculous if the team actually allowed him to play.

The only reason Manning is not on IR is so that he can practice with the team and start to get back into football shape, reestablish his timing with the receivers, and rebuilding his arm strength. The FO wants to see that he is able to make progress and evaluate him so that they know what to do with the upcoming draft.

By putting Manning in a game, you do not gain anything. You can't fairly evaluate a guy who hasn't played football for nearly a year. Of course he's going to have a bad game, and then you're left thinking that we need to move on and draft his replacement. If you don't rush things and make a proper evaluation, you would have better perspective.

As for Austin Collie, he sat out the rest of last year. He's had a lot of time to recover, and is wearing a more protective helmet design to limit the implications of impact. The FO was careful with him, as they should be with Manning.

Concussions are cumulative...You dont recover..

But he's cleared to play so he plays...as should Manning.

I want him to play so we can win...so he knows he's OK...

..and so we know about what to do in the draft...

He doesnt have to be Johnny Unitas...

[Balzer40]

Concussions are cumulative...You dont recover..

But he's cleared to play so he plays...as should Manning.

I want him to play so we can win...so he knows he's OK...

..and so we know about what to do in the draft...

He doesnt have to be Johnny Unitas...

You speak as if, Manning plays=Colts automatic win. Thats ridiculous, this team is awful and if you think Manning's gonna come back in mid december after hardly any practice and zero reps and play like he always has, Mod Edit for personal shot

[ponys]

Concussions are cumulative...You dont recover..

But he's cleared to play so he plays...as should Manning.

I want him to play so we can win...so he knows he's OK...

..and so we know about what to do in the draft...

He doesnt have to be Johnny Unitas...

First off he is no Johhny Unitas and he won't be back with his injury so move on.

Edited November 4, 2011 by ponys

[The Fish]

Why is it a questionable from a health stand point if a doctor says he's good to go? We aren't talking about rushing him back when it's boarder line that he can play or not. I think most here agree he needs to heal so he's 100% and at no greater risk of getting hurt than he normally would be playing football. If that happens and it happens be week 16 or 17 why is it questionable from a health stand point?

Dude hasn't taken a snap in months, has been walking briskly. Being cleared is obvious, but there is more to it. I stand by my point, although I don't like it, and would rather see him play.

[oldunclemark]

First off he is no Johhny Unitas and he won't be back with his injury so move on.

Manning is no Unitas...? Really?

[JoKeR]

I don't think its ridiculous, just not necessary. By the way, the #1 pick is worth forum annoyance or the 0-16 title that we'd probably get anyway.

Edited November 4, 2011 by JoKeR

[Flash7]

Concussions are cumulative...You dont recover..

But he's cleared to play so he plays...as should Manning.

I want him to play so we can win...so he knows he's OK...

..and so we know about what to do in the draft...

He doesnt have to be Johnny Unitas...

We are not going to know what to do with Manning or the draft by playing him. He will be rusty, OldUncleMark, what new information will this provide you? This was evident last year when he missed the 4 preseason games. It took him at least 4 games into the season to get back to playing at a high level. By playing him in the final two games of the season, we'll find out that he's not yet ready to play.

Austin Collie is a very good player, but overall, is a role player. Peyton Manning is the face of this franchise. He will be protected more than any other player on this team.

He missed the preseason last year and greatly

[oldunclemark]

Your making assumptions. How is Collie risking his career more than anyone else on the field? He's clear to play, the NFL doesn't take concussions lightly anymore.

Concussions are cumulative....Anyone whose had one is at greater risk of having another

Aikman, Warner...retired because of concussions....I know you know that.

Receivers get hit in the head all the time. there's no assumptions here.. Just the question.

If its too dangerous for Manning to play a game to try to win one game..

What is Collie doing out there..?/

[oldunclemark]

We are not going to know what to do with Manning or the draft by playing him. He will be rusty, OldUncleMark, what new information will this provide you? This was evident last year when he missed the 4 preseason games. It took him at least 4 games into the season to get back to playing at a high level. By playing him in the final two games of the season, we'll find out that he's not yet ready to play.

Austin Collie is a very good player, but overall, is a role player. Peyton Manning is the face of this franchise. He will be protected more than any other player on this team.

He missed the preseason last year and greatly

So it doesn't matter if Collie gets another concussion because he's not a big star??

I know you dont mean to say that.

My point is that any one game is dangerous....

But players play. And we need to see if he can go...(and he needs to see) before the season ends

We need to not be 0-16...That's forever.....and his teammates are out there fighting for a win

We need to know if we need to draft a QB...Forget rusty..either he's OK or he isnt.

We need to know.

Once cleared by the docs....

There's less reason for Collie to play actually than there is for Manning..

[JoKeR]

Sorry I thought the thread was about Collie. But on that I agree if your cleared to play, then your cleared.

I just don't think its necessary to play him this season unless he actually has a chance to get in a rhythm(3-4 games) . There's no prize for having the 2nd or 3rd worst record.

[GoDeep]

We are not going to know what to do with Manning or the draft by playing him. He will be rusty, OldUncleMark, what new information will this provide you? This was evident last year when he missed the 4 preseason games. It took him at least 4 games into the season to get back to playing at a high level. By playing him in the final two games of the season, we'll find out that he's not yet ready to play.

Austin Collie is a very good player, but overall, is a role player. Peyton Manning is the face of this franchise. He will be protected more than any other player on this team.

He missed the preseason last year and greatly

Thought you just miss typed the last time I saw it, but it was 2008 when Manning missed the whole preseason.

[GoDeep]

I really don't think our draft pick in the first round of 2012 will hinge on what Peyton could muster in some game with a few weeks practice. Weeks 15 & 16 we will playing teams that may be desparate for a win to seal a playoff bid.

I don't know if I want to "test" Manning in a scenario like that. Either he can throw or he can't. I think his super talent is his brain, and he has not had brain surgery (that we know of ;))

[Andy]

Austin Collie was cleared to play, he was cleared to take contact, and he had his concussion in December. A concussion like the one he got doesn't take 8 months to recover from. I mean, it took him less than a month for him to return from his first one. Manning got his neck surgery, his 3rd and most major one at that, in September.

Also, I've noticed that the Colts have placed a lot less of "slot-seam" plays... the plays that Austin was injured in. It's funny because it was the exact same play in both situations...flip left, x-seam, jet 35, blue counter, outside back block, seven-y quarter...

[jskinnz]

Austin Collie was cleared to play, he was cleared to take contact, and he had his concussion in December. A concussion like the one he got doesn't take 8 months to recover from. I mean, it took him less than a month for him to return from his first one. Manning got his neck surgery, his 3rd and most major one at that, in September.

Also, I've noticed that the Colts have placed a lot less of "slot-seam" plays... the plays that Austin was injured in. It's funny because it was the exact same play in both situations...flip left, x-seam, jet 35, blue counter, outside back block, seven-y quarter...

The Colts are not intenionally avoiding the play that got Collie hurt. If that is the best play to hurt the defense or if Painter is capable of throwing it like Peyton did, it would be in the offense.

And they hit Collie in the slot last week on that very same type of play.

[bayone]

You speak as if, Manning plays=Colts automatic win. Thats ridiculous, this team is awful and if you think Manning's gonna come back in mid december after hardly any practice and zero reps and play like he always has, then you're a little more crazy than I already know you are.

agreed, just what j he needs, entire body is somewhat weaker muscularly as just starting to jog he hoped last week

Throw him in cold with timing not perfected etc and he will just try to hard to win it by self and will endanger himself even further than just by stepping on a playing field in a game situation

Edited November 4, 2011 by bayone

[oldunclemark]

The Colts are not intenionally avoiding the play that got Collie hurt. If that is the best play to hurt the defense or if Painter is capable of throwing it like Peyton did, it would be in the offense.

And they hit Collie in the slot last week on that very same type of play.

Collie's getting hit......sure I worry about him when he goes down....

but he made his decision...

..and stop..the endangering himself further stuff. Just like Collie..If Manning's cleared to play, he's cleared to play...

[GoGoColts]

I need a higher ration of negative reputation points to hand out. I can't vote down OP like this fast enough.

[oldunclemark]

You speak as if, Manning plays=Colts automatic win. Thats ridiculous, this team is awful and if you think Manning's gonna come back in mid december after hardly any practice and zero reps and play like he always has, then you're a little more crazy than I already know you are.

I not only think it....Bayone

'

I heard him say it.. Jst like you did..

Tell him he's crazy. tell Collie while you're at it. I dont know why you're so against a player playing once he's healthly

Its what they do.

And your last comment fell of a cliff..

If Manning plays against jacksonville..who's your money on...?

Come on, man!!!

[Andy]

The Colts are not intenionally avoiding the play that got Collie hurt. If that is the best play to hurt the defense or if Painter is capable of throwing it like Peyton did, it would be in the offense.

And they hit Collie in the slot last week on that very same type of play.

When did I sat that they're intentionally avoiding that play? I DIDN'T! The Colts used that play a lot last year, and this year they have not used it as much, it's just my observation.

[jskinnz]

Collie's getting hit......sure I worry about him when he goes down....

but he made his decision...

..and stop..the endangering himself further stuff. Just like Collie..If Manning's cleared to play, he's cleared to play...

Did you quote the wrong post? Tell me where I said anything about Collie or Manning for that matter endangering themselves.

[jskinnz]

When did I sat that they're intentionally avoiding that play? I DIDN'T! The Colts used that play a lot last year, and this year they have not used it as much, it's just my observation.

Went back and re-read your post and that sure seemed to be your implication. If not, my bad.

[Jaric]

Wait, Austin Collie is playing? Are you sure?

[JoKeR]

The Colts are not intenionally avoiding the play that got Collie hurt. If that is the best play to hurt the defense or if Painter is capable of throwing it like Peyton did, it would be in the offense.

And they hit Collie in the slot last week on that very same type of play.

Too bad Painter can't throw to where his receivers are going to be like Manning, that's what makes that play work.

[JoKeR]

Wait, Austin Collie is playing? Are you sure?

Yeah the guy with the bobble head helmet. Like Dark Helmet from Spaceballs.

[manningstheman]

If its ridiculous for Peyton Manning to even think about playing in 'meaningless' games when we're hopelessly out of the playoffs......

...then why is Austin Collie..who had had three concussions and could be knocked unconscious in a life-threatening fashion on any play....in the lineup?

Your thoughts....

If he doesnt want to play football then he doesnt have to. He chooses to play professional football, and that means if you are cleared to play then you suck it up and find out ways to catch a ball and protect yourself at the same time. Marvin Harrison was great at that. He would catch a ball, and if he knew there was no chance to break it, fall to the ground before anyone hit him. Somethimes you would see him catch a ball and go straight to the fetal position before hitting the ground. lol.

[Gonzo]

IF Manning plays this year they aren't gonna just throw him in cold. IMO he'll have been throwing for a month and full participation at practice for at least half as long before he gets a start. If he can't manage that then I don't think they play him.

[nsurg]

This is an interesting question for a thread, and the simple answer is that football players like to play football, and money is involved.

The NFL cares very much about concussions... I heard Goodell at a neurosurgery national conference this past October give a speech about his commitment to concussion evaluation and research, and as I recall he said that $100 million was set aside (I might have that number wrong, but it was a LOT) for medical issues from the new collective bargaining agreement, and that a large portion of this would be dedicated to concussion research/eval/treatment.

But collie and manning are in radically different situations medically and professionally, so they have different clearances and reasons to play.

Collie has had 2 major concussions in one season. The current guidelines allow such a player to play, but acknowledge "consideration of ending all participation in contact sports." But put yourself in collie's situation: young guy, early in the league, promising, and smart (I think his gpa was 3.7 or 3.9 or so?).... I'd play if I were him. What else is he going to do? And this season is not one for him to sit out, even if it is "worthless" for the team, because it gives him income and hopefully proves his value. To sit out is to be labeled fragile and injured (look at how you guys label gonzo), and he'll have no value for his next signing. It is not true that you "never recover from a concussion." In the short term after a concussion the brain is more susceptible to injury. In the long term after a concussion, evidence implies that the brain is probably more susceptible to an injury, but quantifying this is difficult. Independent of future injury risk, cognitive function can be perfect, excellent, or impaired, and truly only collie and those close to him know about this outcome. There's risk to him playing, but it is not extreme compared to what other players in his position submit to.

Regarding peyton, he is not safe to play until bone fuses, which is not black and white... it is a continuum. There is probably already a bit of solid bone fusion, and it will be more stable in a year. Believe it or not, it wouldn't be the end of the world if he cracked open the fusion by playing later this year--it could grow back or be revised with a trivial surgery, but would set back the fusion clock (and probably not re-injure the nerve at all unless something bizarre happened). Peyton seemed to imply that he would like to play just so that he could prove his value or lack of value to the team early, rather than later. I truly think he wants to let the team know if he has potential or not, and he wants to know. He has enough money that he doesn't need to keep his status private to milk his contract if he is eventually unfit to play.

I think common sense will prevail and they won't let him play this season even if he is partially fused, but I have no doubt they will be watching him try to throw some passes in practice by December or January. Let's look very carefully for any comments on passing distance. As a side note, I think there is not an extremely high chance of his accuracy being as affected as much as distance, but this is on the table at least a bit... also, there is a reasonable chance he has some numbness in his 3rd finger, give or take the adjacent finger(s), but who knows... It would be nice to have the inside scoop on this, but then I guess I couldn't speculate in that case!

Again, the rumbling when I last spoke to some of the non-team-affiliated Indy neurosurgeons (who are also speculating but may have heard some rumors that they couldn't directly repeat to me) is a tone of cautious optimism that he'd be back.

Now please quit drawing me into these posts, I have to get some sleep!

Edited November 5, 2011 by nsurg

[Jaric]

Yeah the guy with the bobble head helmet. Like Dark Helmet from Spaceballs.

Where has he been the past 8 weeks? I sure as heck haven't seen him.

[CollieFangirl]

Collie is playing because he's my favorite, and I need to see at least one of my boys every week!

[John Dee]

Yeah the guy with the bobble head helmet. Like Dark Helmet from Spaceballs.

What a hateful lot we have become.....

Dude is nearly one "big hit from retirement" and he is the brunt of a joke... Because he and he team are experimenting with alternative helmet technology. Seriously...

sigh..... What the heck.... lets start ragging on Manning....

[John Dee]

Where has he been the past 8 weeks? I sure as heck haven't seen him.

Where have the so called "all pros" been? That is the key question? D Free, Mathis, Wayne, Clark...... NO SHOWS....

and you are trying to clown a guy coming back form a serious concussion issue? So what is the "other healthy" folks excuse?

[Coltssouth]

This is an interesting question for a thread, and the simple answer is that football players like to play football, and money is involved.

The NFL cares very much about concussions... I heard Goodell at a neurosurgery national conference this past October give a speech about his commitment to concussion evaluation and research, and as I recall he said that $100 million was set aside (I might have that number wrong, but it was a LOT) for medical issues from the new collective bargaining agreement, and that a large portion of this would be dedicated to concussion research/eval/treatment.

But collie and manning are in radically different situations medically and professionally, so they have different clearances and reasons to play.

Collie has had 2 major concussions in one season. The current guidelines allow such a player to play, but acknowledge "consideration of ending all participation in contact sports." But put yourself in collie's situation: young guy, early in the league, promising, and smart (I think his gpa was 3.7 or 3.9 or so?).... I'd play if I were him. What else is he going to do? And this season is not one for him to sit out, even if it is "worthless" for the team, because it gives him income and hopefully proves his value. To sit out is to be labeled fragile and injured (look at how you guys label gonzo), and he'll have no value for his next signing. It is not true that you "never recover from a concussion." In the short term after a concussion the brain is more susceptible to injury. In the long term after a concussion, evidence implies that the brain is probably more susceptible to an injury, but quantifying this is difficult. Independent of future injury risk, cognitive function can be perfect, excellent, or impaired, and truly only collie and those close to him know about this outcome. There's risk to him playing, but it is not extreme compared to what other players in his position submit to.

Regarding peyton, he is not safe to play until bone fuses, which is not black and white... it is a continuum. There is probably already a bit of solid bone fusion, and it will be more stable in a year. Believe it or not, it wouldn't be the end of the world if he cracked open the fusion by playing later this year--it could grow back or be revised with a trivial surgery, but would set back the fusion clock (and probably not re-injure the nerve at all unless something bizarre happened). Peyton seemed to imply that he would like to play just so that he could prove his value or lack of value to the team early, rather than later. I truly think he wants to let the team know if he has potential or not, and he wants to know. He has enough money that he doesn't need to keep his status private to milk his contract if he is eventually unfit to play.

I think common sense will prevail and they won't let him play this season even if he is partially fused, but I have no doubt they will be watching him try to throw some passes in practice by December or January. Let's look very carefully for any comments on passing distance. As a side note, I think there is not an extremely high chance of his accuracy being as affected as much as distance, but this is on the table at least a bit... also, there is a reasonable chance he has some numbness in his 3rd finger, give or take the adjacent finger(s), but who knows... It would be nice to have the inside scoop on this, but then I guess I couldn't speculate in that case!

Again, the rumbling when I last spoke to some of the non-team-affiliated Indy neurosurgeons (who are also speculating but may have heard some rumors that they couldn't directly repeat to me) is a tone of cautious optimism that he'd be back.

Now please quit drawing me into these posts, I have to get some sleep!

Good post.

[oldunclemark]

This is an interesting question for a thread, and the simple answer is that football players like to play football, and money is involved.

The NFL cares very much about concussions... I heard Goodell at a neurosurgery national conference this past October give a speech about his commitment to concussion evaluation and research, and as I recall he said that $100 million was set aside (I might have that number wrong, but it was a LOT) for medical issues from the new collective bargaining agreement, and that a large portion of this would be dedicated to concussion research/eval/treatment.

But collie and manning are in radically different situations medically and professionally, so they have different clearances and reasons to play.

Collie has had 2 major concussions in one season. The current guidelines allow such a player to play, but acknowledge "consideration of ending all participation in contact sports." But put yourself in collie's situation: young guy, early in the league, promising, and smart (I think his gpa was 3.7 or 3.9 or so?).... I'd play if I were him. What else is he going to do? And this season is not one for him to sit out, even if it is "worthless" for the team, because it gives him income and hopefully proves his value. To sit out is to be labeled fragile and injured (look at how you guys label gonzo), and he'll have no value for his next signing. It is not true that you "never recover from a concussion." In the short term after a concussion the brain is more susceptible to injury. In the long term after a concussion, evidence implies that the brain is probably more susceptible to an injury, but quantifying this is difficult. Independent of future injury risk, cognitive function can be perfect, excellent, or impaired, and truly only collie and those close to him know about this outcome. There's risk to him playing, but it is not extreme compared to what other players in his position submit to.

Regarding peyton, he is not safe to play until bone fuses, which is not black and white... it is a continuum. There is probably already a bit of solid bone fusion, and it will be more stable in a year. Believe it or not, it wouldn't be the end of the world if he cracked open the fusion by playing later this year--it could grow back or be revised with a trivial surgery, but would set back the fusion clock (and probably not re-injure the nerve at all unless something bizarre happened). Peyton seemed to imply that he would like to play just so that he could prove his value or lack of value to the team early, rather than later. I truly think he wants to let the team know if he has potential or not, and he wants to know. He has enough money that he doesn't need to keep his status private to milk his contract if he is eventually unfit to play.

I think common sense will prevail and they won't let him play this season even if he is partially fused, but I have no doubt they will be watching him try to throw some passes in practice by December or January. Let's look very carefully for any comments on passing distance. As a side note, I think there is not an extremely high chance of his accuracy being as affected as much as distance, but this is on the table at least a bit... also, there is a reasonable chance he has some numbness in his 3rd finger, give or take the adjacent finger(s), but who knows... It would be nice to have the inside scoop on this, but then I guess I couldn't speculate in that case!

Again, the rumbling when I last spoke to some of the non-team-affiliated Indy neurosurgeons (who are also speculating but may have heard some rumors that they couldn't directly repeat to me) is a tone of cautious optimism that he'd be back.

Now please quit drawing me into these posts, I have to get some sleep!

Good points except about Collie..

If you think he is under less risk that Manning or anyone else..who has never had a concussion..

then you dont really understand head trauma..//Concussions are cumulative.....no one will tell you otherwise...

The more you have..the more likely you are to have another..

Brain function is not perfect if you get hit again..and WRs can get hit at any time...

..and long term brain damage effects are scary...if somewhat uncharted...

But short of that...the more you read about head trauma..the more you realize that a multilple concussion victim

is taking his life in his own hands every play every day as an NFL wide receiver..

..so I'm not worried about Manning....with back fusion surgery...that repairs a very serious injury..once he is cleared.

..and with 5 300-pound guys protecting him......he's eitehr OK or he isnt...once fusion takes place (which is our Dec.1 date)

. I'm worried when Collie takes another hit in the head....as I think we all are

if Manning is somewhat foolish to return..Collie is borderline insane to be out there now. ///

But its their call..

Sorry..about the sleep thing. :blink: