Marvin Harrison, Tony Dungy Semifinalists for Hall Of Fame

[t-rex]

Tom Flores was the first minority HC to win a SB(2). Not sure if he has even gotten close.

 

Tom Flores could be the most underrated coach in NFL history. When people remember the great Raider teams they go back the the 1970s. But the Raiders of the 1970s largely failed in big games. Off the top of my head, at one point they lost in the AFCCG 7 times in 8 years. And for many of those losses, the Raiders had the better team.

 

Tom Flores maxed out the potential of the Raider roster in the early 1980s. He won the 1980 Super Bowl with one of the worst Super Bowl wining teams of all time. He then won it all again in 1983, with perhaps one of the most underrated teams in Super Bowl history. Flores was definitely a great coach.

 

John Madden won the Super Bowl just once in 1976. And any football historian will tell you that had the Steelers been healthy in the AFCCG, there is no way the Raiders would have even gotten to the Super Bowl. In addition, in the divisional round of the playoffs that year the Raiders benefitted from a terrible call late in the game that saved the Raiders against the Patriots. To this day it is regarded among the worst calls in NFL playoff history. John Madden and the vaunted Raiders of the 1970s lone championship is loaded with *asterisks*.

 

Kenny Stabler/John Madden- 1 Super Bowl

 

Jim Plunkett/Tom Flores- 2 Super Bowls

 

Sometimes history is real funny regarding who is remembered as great. And who is completely forgotten.

[BOTT]

Tom Flores could be the most underrated coach in NFL history. When people remember the great Raider teams they go back the the 1970s. But the Raiders of the 1970s largely failed in big games. Off the top of my head, at one point they lost in the AFCCG 7 times in 8 years. And for many of those losses, the Raiders had the better team.

 

Tom Flores maxed out the potential of the Raider roster in the early 1980s. He won the 1980 Super Bowl with one of the worst Super Bowl wining teams of all time. He then won it all again in 1983, with perhaps one of the most underrated teams in Super Bowl history. Flores was definitely a great coach.

 

John Madden won the Super Bowl just once in 1976. And any football historian will tell you that had the Steelers been healthy in the AFCCG, there is no way the Raiders would have even gotten to the Super Bowl. In addition, in the divisional round of the playoffs that year the Raiders benefitted from a terrible call late in the game that saved the Raiders against the Patriots. To this day it is regarded among the worst calls in NFL playoff history. John Madden and the vaunted Raiders of the 1970s lone championship is loaded with *asterisks*.

 

Kenny Stabler/John Madden- 1 Super Bowl

 

Jim Plunkett/Tom Flores- 2 Super Bowls

 

Sometimes history is real funny regarding who is remembered as great. And who is completely forgotten.

That 1980 team was also the first wild card team to win the SB. Lots of no name players as you alluded to.

[t-rex]

The Bucs fell off so bad they won a SB soon as Dungy left. It wasn't just due to coaching that the Bucs dipped....players leave, age, etc.

 

Umm... ask any Bucs player, Sapp, Brooks, Lynch etc. and they will tell you it was Dungy's team. Nobody involved in football will even dispute that. Nor would they dispute the rapid decline after Dungy left.

 

You probably believe the Cowboys 3rd Super Bowl title in 1996 was because of the head coaching genius of Barry Switzer. And that former head coach Jimmie Johnson had nothing to do with the team.

 

You probably also think the Cowboys rapid decline in the late 1990s had nothing to do with Jimmy Johnson leaving the Cowboys in the early 1990s.

 

WOW!

[t-rex]

That 1980 team was also the first wild card team to win the SB. Lots of no name players as you alluded to.

 

The 1980 Raiders team didn't even have a 1,000 yard back which was a big deal back then. Jim Plunkett was a back up QB who filled in for QB Dan Pasteroni who broke his leg early in the season. What the Raiders did have was Lester Hayes. His 1980 season was absolutely absurd. In his prime he was the greatest coverage CB in NFL history. 

[BOTT]

Umm... ask any Bucs player, Sapp, Brooks, Lynch etc. and they will tell you it was Dungy's team. Nobody involved in football will even dispute that. Nor would they dispute the rapid decline after Dungy left.

 

You probably believe the Cowboys 3rd Super Bowl title in 1996 was because of the head coaching genius of Barry Switzer. And that former head coach Jimmie Johnson had nothing to do with the team.

 

You probably also think the Cowboys rapid decline in the late 1990s had nothing to do with Jimmy Johnson leaving the Cowboys in the early 1990s.

 

WOW!

And sapp and brooks have also been quoted saying they needed Gruden to take that next step.

As far as the rest of your post....no, and to say that is pretty asinine.

[BOTT]

The 1980 Raiders team didn't even have a 1,000 yard back which was a big deal back then. Jim Plunkett was a back up QB who filled in for QB Dan Pasteroni who broke his leg early in the season. What the Raiders did have was Lester Hayes. His 1980 season was absolutely absurd. In his prime he was the greatest coverage CB in NFL history.

I actually thought Hayes' future teammate, Mike Haynes, was better.

[t-rex]

I found the stats on Lester Hayes in 1980 just because it perked my interest.

 

In 1980 as a shut down corner, Lester Hayes had 13 interceptions for 273 return yards, 2 fumble recovers and a TD. But even more amazingly he had 4 more interceptions that were called back by penalty.

 

But this was only the regular season!

 

During the playoffs that year he had an additional 5 interceptions and another defensive TD!

 

Then after winning the Super Bowl, he went to the Pro Bowl where he had another interception! 

 

From game 1 to the Super Bowl, to the Pro Bowl (which was taken more seriously back then), Lester Hayes had 19 interceptions. And 4 more that were brought back by penalty!

 

Lets also not forget he arguably should have been the MVP of the 1983 Super Bowl for his incredible defensive work against the Washington Redskins. The Raiders built their entire defensive attack on the ability to play the Redskin WR man to man without help. The Redskins at the time where the highest scoring team in NFL history. But they scored just 9 points in the Super Bowl thanks in no small part to the great Lester Hayes.

 

[t-rex]

I actually thought Hayes' future teammate, Mike Haynes, was better.

 

Mike Haynes was very good. But Hayes was special. 

 

Mike Haynes is one of the top defensive backs in NFL history. Lester Hayes is one of the top defensive players in NFL history. I think that's the difference.

[sb41champs]

   Congratulations to both gentlemen on making the first cut !!  Hoping that both are first-ballot HOFers !!   

[BOTT]

Mike Haynes was very good. But Hayes was special. 

 

Mike Haynes is one of the top defensive backs in NFL history. Lester Hayes is one of the top defensive players in NFL history. I think that's the difference.

Well, only one is in the HOF., although Hayes probably should be.

[t-rex]

Well, only one is in the HOF., although Hayes probably should be.

 

 

Good post.

 

I agree.

 

Mike Haynes absolutely should be in the Hall of Fame. Why Lester Hayes isn't in the Hall of Fame is one of the most baffling questions in football. But please, don't get me started on how ridiculous Hall of Fame voting is. 

 

Lester Hayes was voted the NFL's defensive player of the year. As a corner! Do you know how dominate you have to be to be declared DPOTY as a corner? As a defensive back he practically carried his team to 2 Super Bowl titles!

 

Many have speculated as to why Hayes is not in the Hall of Fame.

 

Al Davis claimed it was because the old guard Raiders were shunned by the NFL. He believed players like Hayes, Branch, Stabler  and even modern players like Brown should be in. And he may have point.

 

Another reason? Lester Hayes was not very marketable to the media at the time. He had a severe stuttering problem and shied away from the press and interviews. People don't want to admit it. But the glitz, glamour, TV and press stuff matters a lot. And Hayes didn't excel at it. And I think this is a big reason why he is so historically underrated and not in the Hall of fame.

 

By the way, this issue doesn't just effect Hayes. Madden won 1 Super Bowl but is considered an all time great Raider coach. Tom Flores with an inferior roster won 2 Super Bowls and is a forgotten man. Same issue. Madden was great with the press. Flores was not.

[sreylas937]

Brooks and Harrison are first ballot

[BOTT]

Good post.

 

I agree.

 

Mike Haynes absolutely should be in the Hall of Fame. Why Lester Hayes isn't in the Hall of Fame is one of the most baffling questions in football. But please, don't get me started on how ridiculous Hall of Fame voting is. 

 

Lester Hayes was voted the NFL's defensive player of the year. As a corner! Do you know how dominate you have to be to be declared DPOTY as a corner? As a defensive back he practically carried his team to 2 Super Bowl titles!

 

Many have speculated as to why Hayes is not in the Hall of Fame.

 

Al Davis claimed it was because the old guard Raiders were shunned by the NFL. He believed players like Hayes, Branch, Stabler  and even modern players like Brown should be in. And he may have point.

 

Another reason? Lester Hayes was not very marketable to the media at the time. He had a severe stuttering problem and shied away from the press and interviews. People don't want to admit it. But the glitz, glamour, TV and press stuff matters a lot. And Hayes didn't excel at it. And I think this is a big reason why he is so historically underrated and not in the Hall of fame.

 

By the way, this issue doesn't just effect Hayes. Madden won 1 Super Bowl but is considered an all time great Raider coach. Tom Flores with an inferior roster won 2 Super Bowls and is a forgotten man. Same issue. Madden was great with the press. Flores was not.

Totally forgot about his stuttering problem, but yeah, that probably didn't help.

Would love to see Cliff Branch in the modern NFL.

[t-rex]

Totally forgot about his stuttering problem, but yeah, that probably didn't help.

Would love to see Cliff Branch in the modern NFL.

 

Agreed. 

 

Cliff Branch will have speed forever. The famous Raider line "Speed Kills" was in reference to the great Cliff Branch.

 

Good discussion.

 

I worry we may have hijacked the thread!

[21isSuperman]

Dungy's cover 2 defense was pretty revolutionary  -- and not that race should really matter this day in age, but being the first African American to win a super bowl ring has to say a lot.  Also, Dungy's 'coaching tree' has to go a long way -- not only an impressive group, but I think it will also be argued that he really opened the door for African Americans to have a shot at making it to the top of the coaching ladder --- Lovie Smith, Mike Tomlin, Herm Edwards, Jim Caldwell plus Rod Marinelli are all former Dungy assistants that have served, or still are serving as head coaches in NFL and Monte Kiffin is arguably the most accomplished coordinator that has never become a head NFL coach in league history.

 

I think both get in at some point.

Overall, I think he was overrated.  His main stats are about wins and I think that's simply a byproduct of having Peyton Manning as your QB.  His Tampa 2 defense was very exclusive, that is to say you had to have very specific players to make it work.  You need a good, penetrating DT (Warren Sapp/no Colts equivalent), good cover LBs (Brooks/Brackett, June), and a thumper at S who can make solid tackles (Lynch/Sanders when healthy).  When Sanders wasn't healthy, the defense was brutal.  And I don't recall the coaches making any adjustments to improve the deficient scheme.  Peyton Manning even made Jim Caldwell look like a decent head coach, going with a 14-2 record in one season.  Take away Peyton and you go 2-14.  Dungy's defense was nothing special and his Xs and Os coaching was underwhelming.  As a man, he's great.  As a football coach, I think he is very average

[dgambill]

Umm... ask any Bucs player, Sapp, Brooks, Lynch etc. and they will tell you it was Dungy's team. Nobody involved in football will even dispute that. Nor would they dispute the rapid decline after Dungy left.

 

You probably believe the Cowboys 3rd Super Bowl title in 1996 was because of the head coaching genius of Barry Switzer. And that former head coach Jimmie Johnson had nothing to do with the team.

 

You probably also think the Cowboys rapid decline in the late 1990s had nothing to do with Jimmy Johnson leaving the Cowboys in the early 1990s.

 

WOW!

I disagree with that. Yes it was his DEFENSE....but we all know the reason they got over the top was Grudens influence on the offense that gave them just enough offense..and maxed out Johnsons abilities to win that SB....also his intimate knowledge of the Raiders was KEY. I'm not saying Dungy desearves no credit...he does...A TON...but Gruden was the perfect guy for 1 YEAR...after that...he did nothing of note.

 

I think with Dungy's win percentage and winning the SB...and the respect he has around the league...combine his contributions as a play, coach, and amassador of the game to young people and helping rehibilitate players like Michael Vick and others he desearves to go in....at some point....Marvin I believe will be a first or second ballot guy...no doubt.

[CVDGxRAZE]

legends

[The Old Crow]

IMO

Marvin Yes

Tony No- but one of the great gentlemen in sports.

[Surge89]

Dungy is a hard topic for me when it comes to the HOF.

You see Dungy benefits from having an effect on the game not related to the field. Kind of like the same effect NFL films creator Ed Sabol got in with. Dungy has the first African-American to win a Super Bowl. He has the pleasure of being the gateway for African-American coaches to have a hold on NFL coaching. (this in-itself is a huge thing in aspect to the history and legacy of the NFL) These 2 feats have a huge hold on pushing for his enshrinement. 1st ballot? no I don't think so, but I do think he deserves.

Now when it comes to coaching it is... well meh... Yes he had success with 2 franchises and yes he developed a defensive system. But his success in both organizations depended on immense talent that he really didn't have much input in drafting. So how can you say a coach that is technically "gifted" an all star talented Defense and a once in a lifetime QB that reinvents the game, is a HOF coach? You really can't, especially when his passive decisions and questionable loyalty to players hurt the Indianapolis organization more than help. (imo) Also his defensive scheme is innately flawed because it depends on all star talent at so many positions in order for it to be successful. If you have even one part not there you see what Indy had to deal with for years...

If you put his body of work together he is a hard press to get in due to his lack of impact as an NFL coach. But as an extension of NFL history he has an outstanding resume, so to each his own I guess. I ultimately think he does deserve to get in just not now.

[crazycolt1]

With Tony, I think he is an outstanding man. I think he helped build a very good Tampa Bay team and was the coach for most of the years of the all-time decade winning team-the Colts of the last decade. He also won a SB. On those merits alone, I think he deserves the HOF. However, I do think to some degree his ways/on the field philosophies cost the Colts a chance at 2 more SB wins. Just MHO, of course. But yes, Tony deserves the HOF, not a first ballot, but eventually.

So should his winning a super bowl ring as a player figure into his hall of fame status?

[ConBro]

My guess is that Dungy gets in this year, and that Harrison goes in with Peyton Manning (in 7-8 years' time). I think it would only be poetic for them to go in together as they set a record together. I'm also hoping that this is finally the year that Andre Reed gets inducted.

[BOTT]

My guess is that Dungy gets in this year, and that Harrison goes in with Peyton Manning (in 7-8 years' time). I think it would only be poetic for them to go in together as they set a record together. I'm also hoping that this is finally the year that Andre Reed gets inducted.

Bill Walsh and Bill Parcells didn't get on first ballot....no way Dungy does.

[MaoBerry]

How is Tony even considered HOF potential? He was carried, for a lack of a better word, by manning's arm into the HOF. He was a cardboard cutout coach, that allowed manning's agressive personality to dominate him.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Coltssouth
Per forum rule #3

[Tark The Shark]

Both guys are deserving of getting in.

 

Dungy is very respected around the league, not only in the coaching world, but the personal world.

 

I feel Marvin will take a little bit longer to get in because of the backlog of receivers in front of him. I am still surprised Andre Reed hasn't gotten in yet.