JIm Caldwell-Frank Vogel

[oldunclemark]

You saw the difference between Vogel and Caldwell tonight.  Vogel learned from his mistake in game one and adjusted and what happened?  George played MUCH better defense along with the presence of Hibbert took James out of his zone that lead to that last turnover.  That's what good coaches do they might make mistakes but they learn from them and adjust.  That's something Caldwell didn't do very well he would make the same mistake over and over.  Rather it be not having his team ready for an on-side kick or timeouts (everyone forgets earlier in the year before the Jets playoff game he did that strange time out thing against the Jags and got burned in that game too). 

 

Pacer fans have to be thrilled the Pacers have been the better team in two straight games on the road and should be up 2-0 coming home.  If the Pacers take care of the Home Court they are going to the finals.  Also Vogel is doing all this with their best player in Granger being out for the year.  What happened to Caldwell when he lost his best player?  Vogel and Caldwell couldn't be more polar opposites if they tried other than that both keep their cool very well. 

real bad comparison. Vogel pulled Hibbert twice... He learned from his mistake after he made it twice...

Caldwell coached in the Super Bowl 2 twice...dont get carried away....

 

Jim Caldwell, no matter how much Colts fans hate him, ( I think you are the first to blame Jim Caldwell because Hank Baskettt fumbled the onside kick in the Super Bowl)  is an NFL champion...its on the record..and I'm pretty sure his coaching did not cause us to go 2-14 in 2011

 

Frank Vogel?   He's still young...He's getting there.... Check back with me Sunday night

[oldunclemark]

Look on the bright side. The Pacers learned from game 1 and WON TONIGHT!!!!!!!!

 

    :bounce:     

Even 3 technical fouls (2 of them for nothing) couldn't stop them.

 

Roy Hibbert looks a little slow sometimes but he is dominating everyone Miami throws up against him.

[GoColts8818]

real bad comparison. Vogel pulled Hibbert twice... He learned from his mistake after he made it twice...

Caldwell coached in the Super Bowl 2 twice...dont get carried away....

 

Jim Caldwell, no matter how much Colts fans hate him, ( I think you are the first to blame Jim Caldwell because Hank Baskettt fumbled the onside kick in the Super Bowl)  is an NFL champion...its on the record..and I'm pretty sure his coaching did not cause us to go 2-14 in 2011

 

Frank Vogel?   He's still young...He's getting there.... Check back with me Sunday night

It isn't a bad comparison if you follow the point I was making which was that Vogel learned from his mistake and adjusted.  Caldwell would make the same mistake game after game after game and never learned from it.  Vogel adjusted by the next game and did something different rather than keeping trying the same thing over and over.  That's what good coaches do, they adjust when it becomes clear something doesn't work.  Sometimes they do it in the middle of the game and sometimes they make the change for the future. 

 

I did not blame Caldwell for the fumble however even the Colts have said the onsides kick caught them off guard in the Super Bowl even though they had seen it before.  They would see it again later in yes a pre-season game but the Colts were still not lined up expecting it.  Even though teams kept doing it to the Colts Caldwell never adjusted and coached his players to be ready for it when it comes.  As for not recovering it yes Baskett fumbled the ball.  Two people screwed up on that play. 

 

Jim Caldwell is a NFL Champion as an offensive coordinator.  That is NOT the samething as a Head Coach.  If you can't recognize the difference that goes on you.  Don't get me wrong, he had something to do with winning that Super Bowl just as he did when the Colts won Super Bowl XLI.  I honestly have nothing against Caldwell and was happy to see him win with the Ravens.  It doesn't change the fact that at the time he was our Head Coach he wasn't the right guy for the job.  The fact his teams got worse from year-to-year as they moved from Dungy's players to his players speaks to that.  Again, compare that to someone like Vogel whose teams have gotten better and better since he took over as the Pacers Coach.  It's not like he's coaching a "dream" team like the Heat either.  He's coaching a team for the most part without stars and it's his coaching that is making their guys who are becoming stars like George and Hibbert become better.  Add to that he has his team going toe-to-toe with the best team in the NBA and giving them everything they can handle and more WITHOUT his best player and it's really hard to argue that Vogel isn't a good coach. 

[Superman]

Why is matching up "small on small" a  sin.?

 

I am a Pacer fan and I have NO ISSUE with V's move.

 

Pacers are the BETTER TEAM.............         HOLLA

 

Matching up small with small is fine, but there are certain situations where it's a mistake. That was one of them.

[JPFolks]

Hindsight is 20/20 and you can't prove you saw any of it coming in game 1, so it's just jabber.  

 

People aren't complaining that Caldwell allowed a flawed game concept (like a between the tackles run strategy that fails in a game after many attempts) it's a much broader failure with proof of decline to back it up.  Dungy should have gotten credit for 3 super bowl appearances... his Tampa Bay team, built by him where he was unfairly fired (fortunately for us) won the Superbowl the next year and the Colts were left in prime condition, just as he planned so he didn't leave the cupboard bare, went to the Superbowl.  Once the Colts intentionally tossed out the Perfect Season and their seeming invincibility, no matter WHO was to blame for the decision, Caldwell couldn't get them back to the level they had played at all year.  And remember that perhaps the very best Colts team ever was the season where tragically Dungy lost his son which took the entire wind out of the team for good reason.  Dungy is a leader.  I always thought he lacked a bit in the killer instinct and let up on people (in a classy but flawed sort of way) but he was definitely (and still is) a leader of men.   The Ravens were a deeply veteran team who lucked out in Denver and a DB pulled a terrible play at the worst moment and played on the emotion knowing it was their last ride and after the dismantling of the team, THIS year we'll get a fair assessment of Caldwell's strength as an OC.  If Baltimore is challenging for another Super Bowl, perhaps you'll win your point.  If they fail miserably, well... 

[Jules]

 

GAME 7   

 

    

 

 

 

[John Dee]

IF Hibbert were in ...

 

And Bron Bron kicks the ball out to Boch.     And Boch drilles a 20' jumper...  ???   Then we complain about why they are not matching up on big's that can shoot. 

 

Vogel did what MOST coaches would do.       BUT as the series has played out ....   Boch is not Boch and Wade is not Wade.   for whatever reason.   I suspect Indiana just being better factors in.   Make Miami hit jumpers...     

 

It was the first game in the series...      That play alone IS NOT the reason Indiana lost.      When Indiana is sloppy they struggle.

 

IF they don't turn the ball over Monday night they will win.

Matching up small with small is fine, but there are certain situations where it's a mistake. That was one of them.

[oldunclemark]

Wrong John....again....you're listening to the talking TV heads....assuming thet if Hibbert is in, he guards Bosh.

  That was the mistake.  Hansborough guards Bosh on that play..

 

You dont guard the inbounds passer with 2.2 left if the other team doenst have a time out to change the play.

Shane Battier hasnt hit a '3' since Easter and LeBron wasnt giving the ball up anyway

 

Hibbert should have been standing inthe lane. Game 6 proved (again) he can block Lebron or anybody.

 

 

With that said..other than the end of game one....Vogel seems to have done a great job in this series..

I say again: Indiana is the bettter team....

 

     If 'Potty-mouth' Roy can stay out of foul trouble...Indiana can shock the basketball world Monday,

[GoColts8818]

Wrong John....again....you're listening to the talking TV heads....assuming thet if Hibbert is in, he guards Bosh.

  That was the mistake.  Hansborough guards Bosh on that play..

 

You dont guard the inbounds passer with 2.2 left if the other team doenst have a time out to change the play.

Shane Battier hasnt hit a '3' since Easter and LeBron wasnt giving the ball up anyway

 

Hibbert should have been standing inthe lane. Game 6 proved (again) he can block Lebron or anybody.

 

 

With that said..other than the end of game one....Vogel seems to have done a great job in this series..

I say again: Indiana is the bettter team....

 

     If 'Potty-mouth' Roy can stay out of foul trouble...Indiana can shock the basketball world Monday,

I know if the Pacers lose tomorrow people are going to point to game one and say what if but this is really coulda, woulda, shoulda at this point. 

 

if Hibbet's in the game the way that last play is played probably complete changes because odds are with less than three seconds to go you tell Hibbert to camp in the lane and protect the basket.  From there who know what happens.  Also I will say if the end of that game changes the whole series probably does, we might very well have seen the game three Heat in game two because they would have known they couldn't afford to lose two in Miami to start the series.  I will say you can't assume that James wouldn't give up that shot because he has given that shot up in the past.  With that said it probably wouldn't have been a lay up at the basket either way.  However, after a very bad call on Wade that gave the pacers the lead and fouled out Wade and the fact that it was on the road if there is any kind of contact there Hibbert probably picks up his sixth and puts James on the line if he drives the lane.  However, I would much rather take my chances with Bosh or anyone else shooting a jumper or even James at the line over giving James the lay up.  With that said Vogel wasn't the only who made a mistake on that play by not having Hibbert in there people completely over look the bad defense George played.  If he plays solid D James either has to shoot a contested shot probably off balance over him or kick the ball out to someone else. 

 

I will also say John is probably right if someone else form the Heat makes a shot then fans probably complain what were we doing having Hibbert on the floor and making the match up.  It's that old if what you did didn't work you are wrong approach that fans often take.

 

With that said this whole thread is a bit flawed because it's trying to judge Vogel as Pacers coach off one play compared to Caldwell's complete career as a Head Coach.  That's comparing apples to oranges.  We can take an apples to apples comparison between the two men as Head Coach.  Both men have been Head Coach of their teams for three years.

 

One took over one of the best teams in the league with the MVP of the league and while he did get to a championship game his first year his teams steadily got worse the more time he got his own guys in there and then when he lost his best player his team ended up having the worst record in the league.

 

The other took over a team that wasn't even in position to make to the playoffs when he took over and he got them to the playoffs for the first time in years.  From there his team has steadily gotten better and better and he did this without a real super star.  Then in his third year he also lost his best player and he responded by developing another player on the roster into the best player on the team and has them one game away from his league finals. 

 

It's pretty clear which coach did the better job over the three year span and it's Vogel. 

 

Was the decision in game one not to have Hibbert in the game at the end of Game one a bad one and probably wrong? Yes.  However, it's just that a mistake.  ALL coaches make them at some point.  Even BB who might be the best active coach coaching right now in sports makes them remember 4th and 2 vs. the Colts? However, it's just that a mistake not some reflection of his whole coaching career in a nut shell like it has been presented as. 

[oldunclemark]

• You can never say a decision is good or bad because of what the fans would have said if the reverse decision had been implimented and been wrong... That's not logic
• Its assumed when you are critical of a coaches decsilon that ypou dont like that coach. That's not true. Not for me, anyway. And in the original post, there was no mention of judging Vogel on this one play. That's not the point.
• There was a mention of judging coaching mistakes.

 

       Dont bring what might ahve been into the last play. You odnt cover in the inbound passer with 2.2 left.

      Battier was 0-for-4.  I'm just saying that it was a mistakle to take your top defensive player out of the game with a one-point lead and 2.2 left...and the assummption the Hibbert had to guard Bosh is simply wrong.       

• if 5 players cover 4..and Shane Battier is left alone 20 feet out....(he was 0-for-4)  its better than 50-50 we win...

 

      The anti-Caldwell feel is very strong in Indy because fans think all teams that win one Super Bowl should have won multiple bowls..and the coaching errors (the timeout in the NYJ game) ..are used to bolster their belief.

I'm just suggesting that coaching errors in-game and coachng ability are 2 different things..See: Frank Vogel.

I know you know that the fan base in EVERY NFL town feels the head coach's mistakes have cost their team playoff berths and Super Bowls  (see Lovie Smith, Andy Reid, Rex Ryan, an dso on) but understand me. If the Pacers dont beat Miami Monday, I dont think it was because of Game one and Vogel's bad choice because of Indy wins game one, Miami has a different mind-set in game two.

 

       This is a chance for the Pacers to make the NBA finals. Game 7 is different fromt he first six.

       This is a chance that may not come again for many, many years.

 

       I wnat Vogel to be that NBA champion coach that the fans bad mouth in futrure years

[Superman]

IF Hibbert were in ...

 

And Bron Bron kicks the ball out to Boch.     And Boch drilles a 20' jumper...  ???   Then we complain about why they are not matching up on big's that can shoot. 

 

Vogel did what MOST coaches would do.       BUT as the series has played out ....   Boch is not Boch and Wade is not Wade.   for whatever reason.   I suspect Indiana just being better factors in.   Make Miami hit jumpers...     

 

It was the first game in the series...      That play alone IS NOT the reason Indiana lost.      When Indiana is sloppy they struggle.

 

IF they don't turn the ball over Monday night they will win.

 

There were 2 seconds on the clock. A drive and kick isn't really what you're trying to prevent.

[GoColts8818]

 

• You can never say a decision is good or bad because of what the fans would have said if the reverse decision had been implimented and been wrong... That's not logic
• Its assumed when you are critical of a coaches decsilon that ypou dont like that coach. That's not true. Not for me, anyway. And in the original post, there was no mention of judging Vogel on this one play. That's not the point.
• There was a mention of judging coaching mistakes.

 

       Dont bring what might ahve been into the last play. You odnt cover in the inbound passer with 2.2 left.

      Battier was 0-for-4.  I'm just saying that it was a mistakle to take your top defensive player out of the game with a one-point lead and 2.2 left...and the assummption the Hibbert had to guard Bosh is simply wrong.       

• if 5 players cover 4..and Shane Battier is left alone 20 feet out....(he was 0-for-4)  its better than 50-50 we win...

 

      The anti-Caldwell feel is very strong in Indy because fans think all teams that win one Super Bowl should have won multiple bowls..and the coaching errors (the timeout in the NYJ game) ..are used to bolster their belief.

I'm just suggesting that coaching errors in-game and coachng ability are 2 different things..See: Frank Vogel.

I know you know that the fan base in EVERY NFL town feels the head coach's mistakes have cost their team playoff berths and Super Bowls  (see Lovie Smith, Andy Reid, Rex Ryan, an dso on) but understand me. If the Pacers dont beat Miami Monday, I dont think it was because of Game one and Vogel's bad choice because of Indy wins game one, Miami has a different mind-set in game two.

 

       This is a chance for the Pacers to make the NBA finals. Game 7 is different fromt he first six.

       This is a chance that may not come again for many, many years.

 

       I wnat Vogel to be that NBA champion coach that the fans bad mouth in futrure years

 

Point 1.

 

No one said it was logical however it's what fans do.  They react with emotion not logic most of the time.  Need further proof look at all the fall out from Peyton Manning.  The logic made perfect sense yet it was the emotion that made it so hard.  It's why the people who could set aside the emotion called exactly what was going to happen long before it happened. 

 

Point 2.

 

Your posts have very much come across as trying to compare Caldwell to Vogel and judging Vogel based off this one play. 

 

Point 3.

 

it's a mistake, again ALL coaches make mistakes.  Caldwell's problem was that he never really learned from them and would often repeat them.  Vogel at least to this point has not repeated it.  It's also very fair to point even if Hibbert had been on the floor it still might not have worked out.  Heck had George played better defense then we might not be talking about this at all.  There is more than Vogel to blame for that.  Heck you can all the way back to regulation and ask what the heck was Lance doing shooting with 20 some seconds on the shot clock with a three point lead and the ball with under a minute to go?  Vogel is not the only one to blame for this loss.  Even if you want to focus on his mistake it is what it is, he learned from it and has done things differently since then so why is this still an issue?

 

Point 4.

 

Don't tell me you don't cover the in bounder if you don't do want to talk about what could have happened because by saying what you just said you are talking about what could have happened.  Had Roy been on the floor or had the Pacers not covered the in bounder it changes the whole play in all likely hood, it's foolish to think things would have unfolded just as they did had Roy been in the game or had the Pacers not covered the in bounder.  Like I said at this point it's all coulda, woulda, shoulda.  You learn from it and move on and it seems as if the Pacers have.  That's exactly what you want them to do in a situation like this unless Frank Vogel has a time machine hidden some place. 

 

I am also not arguing that Hibbert should have been on the floor.  I think he should have been and I think had he been he would have been told to camp in the middle of the lane since there was less than three seconds to go in the game.  That changes that whole play.  With that said just because Hibbert is on the floor it doesn't mean the Pacers defense would have worked.  James or Bosh or any other Heat player could have knocked down a shot.  With that said I would much rather take my chances on a jumper from a Heat player than a lay up for James.  So yes I agree with the point Hibbert should have been on the floor.  That's why I said Vogel made a mistake.  With that said it could have been the Pacers had Hibbert out there and someone else would have made a shot and then people would have screamed what the Pacers did was wrong.  It's what fans do and that was the point John was making.  It doesn't matter if it's logical or not it's what fans do and it doesn't make it right but it's still what fans do.  There is a tendency with fans to complain about what their team did "wrong" more than give the other team credit for making a good play. 

 

Point 5.

 

I am not anti-Caldwell.  In fact I had defended him in the past and have said more than once I was happy to see him win the Super Bowl this year with the Ravens.  With that said there is no denying that Vogel has done a better job in his three years of a Head Coach than Caldwell did in his three years as a head coach, and yes when talking about being a head coach you have to talk about the head coaching record because being an assistant or coordinator is not the samething as being a head coach.  That's not because I dislike Caldwell, it's just stepping back and looking at the facts.  Once you do it's pretty clear it's not even close Vogel has been much better.  That's not so much trashing Caldwell it's more praise for Vogel than anything else. 

 

Vogel made a mistake it happens, as long as he learns from it and doesn't make them often people will accept that it happens.  Caldwell's problem was that he very rarely learned from his mistakes and often repeated them and tended to make a large number of them that stuck out like sore thumbs.  When that happens people aren't going to over look them. 

 

If Vogel wins a NBA Championship I really doubt he's going to get bad mouthed that much.  If he deliver's Indianapolis their first NBA Title he will be held up in the same light as Dungy is for delivering the Colts their NFL title in Indianapolis.  Then again, some fans like to rip on Dungy so who knows maybe they would turn on Vogel.  With that said even the fans that say things about Dungy still admit he was a good coach they just don't think he was as good as most say he was.  It's important to remember that Caldwell as a HEAD COACH did not win a NFL Championship and no one winning one with last year with the Ravens is not the samething.  It's the same logic people use when they talk about Steve Young winning a Super Bowl as a starter yes he won others as a back up to Montana but that is not viewed the same way as the one he won as the starter.  Yes Young had a role in the others the 49ers won but it's not the same as winning one when you are the man. 

[oldunclemark]

GoC

 

Fans do rip Dungy..and ...Eric Soelstra gets a LOT of HEAT (excuse the pun) in Miami and he's won...

 

I think its important to state what is instead of the spin.

 

Jim caldwell is a two-time Super Bowl coach..and in baltimore his play caling is credited with reviving Joe Flacco..

 

But Indy fans (at least the ones who detail their opinins here) dont like him and say we won in spite of him.

 

My point was (as is yours) that major playoff coaching mistakes happen.  I still call it a blunder and I'm sure Vogel will in future years.

 

Note that LeBron in the post hurt Indy in Game 3 and, for whatever reason, Lebron has not been able to do that in the last 3 games..

 

Vogel's good coaching or Spoelstra's bad design of offense..?

 

I give Vogel credit but that's not what they're syaing in Miami, I'm sure.

 

Again...I dont blame Vogel for game 1 if the Pacers lose Game seven...Each game would be played differently if the previous outcomes go differenmtly....

 

But this win Monday night would be the biggest win since the old ABA days...and they ARE doing it without their leadng scorer.

[John Dee]

Good Lord..........   the TURN OVERS.....      This team NEEDS a Point Guard and G Hill needs to be first man off the bench.    

 

This is really frustrating.  

[John Dee]

And a "untouched" drive to the bucket is?       A catch and kick is EXACTLY what Indy was attempting to defend.     If PG stays if front of Bron Bron that is exactly what happens or Bron Bron shoots.   A layup is not even expected to happen.    But it did.

 

The D is far more concerned about a jumper than an uncontested layup with so little time on the clock.  Thus the reason Hib was out...   The possession prior is the one that bugs me.

There were 2 seconds on the clock. A drive and kick isn't really what you're trying to prevent.

 

 

There were 2 seconds on the clock. A drive and kick isn't really what you're trying to prevent.

[GoColts8818]

GoC

 

Fans do rip Dungy..and ...Eric Soelstra gets a LOT of HEAT (excuse the pun) in Miami and he's won...

 

I think its important to state what is instead of the spin.

 

Jim caldwell is a two-time Super Bowl coach..and in baltimore his play caling is credited with reviving Joe Flacco..

 

But Indy fans (at least the ones who detail their opinins here) dont like him and say we won in spite of him.

 

My point was (as is yours) that major playoff coaching mistakes happen.  I still call it a blunder and I'm sure Vogel will in future years.

 

Note that LeBron in the post hurt Indy in Game 3 and, for whatever reason, Lebron has not been able to do that in the last 3 games..

 

Vogel's good coaching or Spoelstra's bad design of offense..?

 

I give Vogel credit but that's not what they're syaing in Miami, I'm sure.

 

Again...I dont blame Vogel for game 1 if the Pacers lose Game seven...Each game would be played differently if the previous outcomes go differenmtly....

 

But this win Monday night would be the biggest win since the old ABA days...and they ARE doing it without their leadng scorer.

Right but neither gets ripped nearly as much as Caldwell did.  Some of the Caldwell ripping is deserved.  He was just simply not a good Head Coach in his first stint as a Head Coach.  Does that mean he can't be a good Offensive Coordinator or Head Coach in the future?  Of course not.  However, if you honestly compare his Head Coaching stint to Vogel's with the Pacers it's not even close as to which has done the better job.  Also if Vogel wins a Championship with the Pacers fans aren't going to rip him that much because he doesn't have the "big three" or Peyton Manning to get the credit.  Those are the main two reasons Dungy and Spoelstra get ripped and that's not even really getting ripped as much as it is fans not wanting to give them their fair share of the credit but just about all the fans admit they do a good job.  They didn't say that about Caldwell when he was the Colts Head Coach with good reason. 

 

If you are going to give Caldwell credit for being a "Super Bowl" Coach get it right he's a three time Super Bowl Coach he was the QB coach when they went to Super Bowl XLI.  However, anyone who isn't trying to spin a point would tell you that going as an assistant coach is NOT the samething as going as a head coach.  If you can't understand that then I don't know what to tell you.  For what it's worth Vogel was an assistant with the Celtics and Sixers went to the playoffs and no one would say that's the same as leading the Pacers there as a Head Coach. 

[GoColts8818]

Good Lord..........   the TURN OVERS.....      This team NEEDS a Point Guard and G Hill needs to be first man off the bench.    

 

This is really frustrating.  

A lot of it is the bigs just not handling the double teams well at all.  It's not all Hill tonight.  You have to give the Heat credit they have completely taken the Pacers out of their game right now. 

[oldunclemark]

1. Miami lifted their game....Wade did..Bosh did....

     Our guys couldnt.  Very disappointing but Miami picked up the defensive double teams and

 

      we could not move the ball consistently without fumbling it...

 

..and John,,,,you are so right.....Miami can play without a point guard becaues they have a point forward..who draws a double

 

   team and makes strong passes..

 

 Because of their size and defense,  Indy can beat a lot of teams without a true point guard but Miami isnt always one of them.

 

  My dream for them is Trey Burke of Michigan..but they'd have to trade up...

 

   Still..we lLost in 6 in 2012..Lost in seven in 2013....

 

Like Roy said...maybe the those national media MFs will at least watch our games now before they pick the Knicks and Miami to sweep up next spring..

[smittywerb]

 

 

  My dream for them is Trey Burke of Michigan..but they'd have to trade up...

 

  

 

 

Well, I'm a Chris Paul/Pelicans fan, and you're going to have to jump the Pels because we need a point BAD, like you guys.  If the consensus top 5 goes before us, we are definitely picking Burke.

[Superman]

And a "untouched" drive to the bucket is?       A catch and kick is EXACTLY what Indy was attempting to defend.     If PG stays if front of Bron Bron that is exactly what happens or Bron Bron shoots.   A layup is not even expected to happen.    But it did.

 

The D is far more concerned about a jumper than an uncontested layup with so little time on the clock.  Thus the reason Hib was out...   The possession prior is the one that bugs me.

 

It's not that easy to just stay in front of LeBron. 

 

I don't see why you'd say that a layup is not expected to happen. A layup is what you don't want to happen, which is why you keep your best rim defender in the game. A drive and kick is less likely because you only have two seconds on the clock.

 

I agree that you want to stay on the shooters, but a contested jumper is better than a layup, contested or not. 

 

I guess we just see this waaaaay differently. To me, it's a mistake to take your best rim defender out of the game with two seconds left if you're up by one point. Combine that with Paul George not playing very good defense, and you're giving up a layup. If I had to choose, I'd rather let Bosh shoot a contested or even wide open jump shot.

 

Nothing against Vogel; I think he's a very good coach. I just don't think that was the right decision.

[chad72]

I do think Vogel sitting Hibbert and Paul George together for the same duration in the 2nd qtr. led to a Miami run that swelled the lead to double digits that they never relinquished after that. We just don't have quality depth.

 

I just hate a lot of quality depth sitting on the benches of the Heat coattailing on LBJ.

[BrentMc11]

It's not that easy to just stay in front of LeBron. 

 

I don't see why you'd say that a layup is not expected to happen. A layup is what you don't want to happen, which is why you keep your best rim defender in the game. A drive and kick is less likely because you only have two seconds on the clock.

 

I agree that you want to stay on the shooters, but a contested jumper is better than a layup, contested or not. 

 

I guess we just see this waaaaay differently. To me, it's a mistake to take your best rim defender out of the game with two seconds left if you're up by one point. Combine that with Paul George not playing very good defense, and you're giving up a layup. If I had to choose, I'd rather let Bosh shoot a contested or even wide open jump shot.

 

Nothing against Vogel; I think he's a very good coach. I just don't think that was the right decision.

The best way is how the Pacers tried to do it...7'2" with hands straight up.....make him go left up top...then the big fella helps.  TEAM defense sometimes cannot control a monster like Lebron...

[BrentMc11]

I do think Vogel sitting Hibbert and Paul George together for the same duration in the 2nd qtr. led to a Miami run that swelled the lead to double digits that they never relinquished after that. We just don't have quality depth.

 

I just hate a lot of quality depth sitting on the benches of the Heat coattailing on LBJ.

11-4 run to be specific.  It was due to the initial frenetic pace (helter skelter)  Hibbert was 'gassed.'  I was feeling more guys in that 4042 minute range for the big game...slowing the game down would have helped.  (Just my opinion)

[funktacious2]

Vogel didn't make those mistakes, the team just made way too many turnovers and too many fouls. They just fell apart after the 1st.