Luck is already elite! Put any of the so called elite QB's on the Colts behind that horrendous O-Line, and ask yourself could they go 11-5?

[OlBlu]

Hey,  I'm already on record as saying I don't think we'll win 11 games this year.    But that's not a 'Luck' issue...

 

Look...   I say this with respect because I'm painfully uncomfortable with what looks like an attack on a fellow Colts fan...

 

But....   you're a Colts fan...   we won 11 games....  7 in come-from-behind fashion....   the kid throws for over 4,000 yards in a system that is the opposite of his strength....

 

And yet....

 

You hate him so much (and did before he became a Colt)  that your hate blinds you to his ability....  

 

The only stats that matter are 11 wins and 7 come-from-behind....    and yet you're not satisfied....  

 

How do you think last season happened??     You saw what happened the year before....    You seem unwilling to give Luck any credit....    and seem perfectly willing to give Wilson and RG3 all the credit...

 

This seems Bass Ackwards....  if you follow my meaning....

 

Honestly,  I don't get it....

 

Oh, I give him a lot of credit for the wins. It is good that you realize he isn't going to be that lucky again this year. The come from behind stat is a very good one. In your method of evaluation, you must think Tim Tebow is a great QB because he took that Bronco team to the playoffs in 2011 and won a round in the playoffs when that team had been losing for years. Tebows stats in regard to QB ranking and completion percentage compare well with Luck. You are a new Colts fan. I have been watching them since the days of Johnny Unitas. I don't hate Luck and I never did. I do not think he is as good as most fans here believe he is. I thought RGIII was better and was going to be a lot better in the NFL than Luck and I still do. Yes, my personal preference would have been for the Colts to keep their annual contender for MVP for another four or five years and develop a young QB behind him. Curtis Painter was a sham. We should already have had Peyton's replacement developing behind him. The Polians bought into Peytons near invincibility as a QB who just didn't get injured and played through them when he did. I read what Sims and Parcell said about a Luck and I think they had it right. He lacks arm strength to throw the long ball. Passes come up short all of the time. I watched very carefully and I just don't think Luck will make the leap in improvement that will be necessary to even come close to Peyton Manning's achievements. This is just my opinion. I am still a Colts fan but angry with the management and the owner for their treatment of Peyton Manning. If anything, I may be coming to the end of my being a fan of the NFL and any team after Peyton's career is done. There are just too many players being maimed and injured and suffering lifelong disabilities for playing the game. The NFL is deep into law suits with explayers and that is only going to get worse. They have to change the game dramatically to stop these head injuries. I am not sure the fans will stay when and if they do that. I have stopped watching college football for the same reason. I only started watching Luck after seeing all of the "Suck for Luck" posters at Colts games. But when I did that, I also started watching RGIII. RGIII beat Luck for the Heisman Trophy. RGIII beat Luck for the Rookie of the Year. RGIII will be a league MVP and win more than one Super Bowl in my opinion. It is not clear to me that Luck will ever be an MVP or even get to a Super Bowl. I think there is that much difference between them. RGIII will learn to take less punishment but that option he has with the pistol is very dynamic. Luck actually took more hard hits than RGIII did last year. I think these two QBs will be forever linked and while RGIII may not have as long of a career as Luck, I think he will continue to widen the gap that separates them. These are just my opinons from being an observer for over 50 years. I really don't care if you "get it" or not..... :dancing:

[OlBlu]

Elite is a word the OP likes to throw around. I guess at this rate half the league is going to be "elite" soon. Lol we all know that there's only 4 elite QBs in the league right now. Everyone else is on a different level completely.

 

This was well said and very true. It is like trying to claim that Luck is a top 10 QB in the NFL when he doesn't even make the top 15.... But, he might get there eventually.... :dancing:

[Buck Showalter]

The only comparison is that they were both way overhyped coming into the league, both picked number one. This jury of one is still out on Luck. If you chuck the ball as much as he did last year, you should get that many yards. It took a lot of passes to get there. I just want to see him overthrow a long route so the receiver can run to it instead of throwing short and having the ball hang up to be intercepted once in a while. Yes, I watched the Detroit game and I also watched the Chicago game.... :dancing:

So which is it???

Is he overhyped or is the jury still out on him???

 

comparing Luck & J. Russell in anyway shape or form = silliness...

[OlBlu]

So which is it???

Is he overhyped or is the jury still out on him???

 

comparing Luck & J. Russell in anyway shape or form = silliness...

 

Why? Both were way overhyped and they were both number one picks. You may not like it but that is a comparison. The answer to your first question is both. He was way overhyped and the jury is still out on him. If he comes back and improves this year then he may be the real deal. If he stays the same or regresses then he may never be the franchise QB he was hyped to be. That doesn't mean that he will ever sink as low as Russell. He won't be out of the league but I would not be surprised to seem him slide into a backup roll in three or four years..... :dancing:

[LockeDown]

Elite is a word the OP likes to throw around. I guess at this rate half the league is going to be "elite" soon. Lol we all know that there's only 4 elite QBs in the league right now. Everyone else is on a different level completely.

 

And none of those elite QB's won the Super Bowl.  Isn't that supposed to be part of the definition of elite?

[Qwiz]

And none of those elite QB's won the Super Bowl.  Isn't that supposed to be part of the definition of elite?

Winning the SB does not automatically make one elite. It's a part of the process, but winning one SB and having one really good postseason does not make you elite. Are you being sarcastic? Lol.

[GoColts8818]

Elite is a word the OP likes to throw around. I guess at this rate half the league is going to be "elite" soon. Lol we all know that there's only 4 elite QBs in the league right now. Everyone else is on a different level completely.

Both Mannings, Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. Some would argue for Big Ben. That's five or six. So while not half the league still more than four.

[Qwiz]

Both Mannings, Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. Some would argue for Big Ben. That's five or six. So while not half the league still more than four.

I wouldn't say that Eli or Roethlisberger are elite. They are good, but just not there yet. But maybe that's just me.

[Dustin]

I wouldn't say that Eli or Roethlisberger are elite. They are good, but just not there yet. But maybe that's just me.

 

It's not just you. 

[John Dee]

Are you speaking of A Luck here       in your post?

 

 

Why? Both were way overhyped and they were both number one picks. You may not like it but that is a comparison. The answer to your first question is both. He was way overhyped and the jury is still out on him. If he comes back and improves this year then he may be the real deal. If he stays the same or regresses then he may never be the franchise QB he was hyped to be. That doesn't mean that he will ever sink as low as Russell. He won't be out of the league but I would not be surprised to seem him slide into a backup roll in three or four years..... :dancing:

[LockeDown]

Why? Both were way overhyped and they were both number one picks. You may not like it but that is a comparison. The answer to your first question is both. He was way overhyped and the jury is still out on him. If he comes back and improves this year then he may be the real deal. If he stays the same or regresses then he may never be the franchise QB he was hyped to be. That doesn't mean that he will ever sink as low as Russell. He won't be out of the league but I would not be surprised to seem him slide into a backup roll in three or four years..... :dancing:

 

Hahahaha....Sir, you are a troll.  Russell wasn't supposed to be the next John Elway, he just had a legendary strong arm.  I'm gonna keep an eye on your prediction of Luck sliding into a backup role.  When it happens, I'm gonna stock up on canned goods and take my rifle and RV to the desert for the apocolypse. 

[GoColts8818]

I agree with you about Manning's rookie stats but Luck wasn't close to a top five rookie QB season of all time. He barely made being in the top five last year. He was certainly way behind RGIII and Wilson. Tannehill was not that far behind him if he was behind him. Overhype is overhype and putting him in the top five is absurd.... :dancing:

Lucks stats are on par with Manning which till Cam came along was the best rookie season on record by all accounts for a rookie QB. So even if you rank Wilson and RG3 ahead of Luck then at worst Luck is fourth or fifth after Cam and or Manning (and its worth noting several of he rookie numbers were better than Mannings). So while you might not like it yes Luck did have a top five rookie season all time for a rookie QB. Like I said before you can have your own opinion but not your own facts. Till you recognize that there is no point in further conversation because you are just going to keep saying what you want to be true rather than what is really true.

[John Dee]

I personally think Eli Manning is one of THE MOST over rated QB's in this league.

 

Ya...  he has 2 rings...     but so does Jim Plunkett.

 

It's not just you. 

[GoColts8818]

I wouldn't say that Eli or Roethlisberger are elite. They are good, but just not there yet. But maybe that's just me.

Big Ben is more debatable but I think most people feel Eli has moved into the elite class.

[BrentMc11]

I personally think Eli Manning is one of THE MOST over rated QB's in this league.

 

Ya...  he has 2 rings...     but so does Jim Plunkett.

You HAVE to include ELIte to spell it correctly.........

 

Just when I think Eli is as good as I have seen....he disappears...see last year....  I still enjoy watching him....of course I watch grass grow sometimes too

 

[LockeDown]

Winning the SB does not automatically make one elite. It's a part of the process, but winning one SB and having one really good postseason does not make you elite. Are you being sarcastic? Lol.

Yes, I was being a bit facetious, but so many people are telling the OP what is elite and yet the elite QBs didn't win a thing this year.    If you haven't won the SB in a long time like Brady and you have won a couple recently like Eli, when do you decide to let Eli be elite and when do you decide that Brady is no longer elite?  Or are we saying that once elite, always elite? 

[Dustin]

If you have to contemplate whether or not to include a guy in the elite category, then he's not elite.

[Qwiz]

Yes, I was being a bit facetious, but so many people are telling the OP what is elite and yet the elite QBs didn't win a thing this year. If you haven't won the SB in a long time like Brady and you have won a couple recently like Eli, when do you decide to let Eli be elite and when do you decide that Brady is no longer elite? Or are we saying that once elite, always elite?

It's tricky. I think elite QBs are the guys that have their teams contending year in and year out, and SBs more often than not come along with it. Guys like Eli may have won 2 recently but he isn't exactly a game changer or a guy that defenses are terrified of.

[OlBlu]

Lucks stats are on par with Manning which till Cam came along was the best rookie season on record by all accounts for a rookie QB. So even if you rank Wilson and RG3 ahead of Luck then at worst Luck is fourth or fifth after Cam and or Manning (and its worth noting several of he rookie numbers were better than Mannings). So while you might not like it yes Luck did have a top five rookie season all time for a rookie QB. Like I said before you can have your own opinion but not your own facts. Till you recognize that there is no point in further conversation because you are just going to keep saying what you want to be true rather than what is really true.

 

I don't think I am the one who does that, I think that you do that. Unless you only look at passing yards, Luck isn't in the top five rookie QBs of all time. If you use just that one stat, then yes, he is. But if you look at QB rating, completion percentage and turnovers, then he isn't even close.... He is ahead of Ryan Leaf though.... :dancing:

[OlBlu]

Hahahaha....Sir, you are a troll.  Russell wasn't supposed to be the next John Elway, he just had a legendary strong arm.  I'm gonna keep an eye on your prediction of Luck sliding into a backup role.  When it happens, I'm gonna stock up on canned goods and take my rifle and RV to the desert for the apocolypse. 

 

Hey, I may already have an RV in that desert... I don't know if becoming a backup is a possibility or not. I definitely do not know think he will be the superstar you all think he will be. Now, RGIII...... :dancing:

[BrentMc11]

I don't think I am the one who does that, I think that you do that. Unless you only look at passing yards, Luck isn't in the top five rookie QBs of all time. If you use just that one stat, then yes, he is. But if you look at QB rating, completion percentage and turnovers, then he isn't even close.... He is ahead of Ryan Leaf though.... :dancing:

Lets hope so...and here I thought he had turned over a new leaf.

 

[Dustin]

, 

[John Dee]

Lucks stats are on par with Manning which till Cam came along was the best rookie season on record by all accounts for a rookie QB. So even if you rank Wilson and RG3 ahead of Luck then at worst Luck is fourth or fifth after Cam and or Manning (and its worth noting several of he rookie numbers were better than Mannings). So while you might not like it yes Luck did have a top five rookie season all time for a rookie QB. Like I said before you can have your own opinion but not your own facts. Till you recognize that there is no point in further conversation because you are just going to keep saying what you want to be true rather than what is really true.

You go GC..... 

 

Circumstances are the key element in ANY discussion like this.     Most look at stats...  when they should be looking at the situation.    

 

..    and one factor that totally "skews" this is the simple fact that when Indy drafted PM and Luck they were the WORST team in the league.     Same for Cam.  

 

RG3 and Wilson were drafted by "playoff" caliber teams.      Washington trading UP to get the QB.    And SEA simply getting lucky, so far, with a 3rd round pick.       After they spent big bucks on FA on Mat Flyynn.

 

The lot are really not comparable...       Every team and circumstance is unique.  

[jshipp23]

Oh, I give him a lot of credit for the wins. It is good that you realize he isn't going to be that lucky again this year. The come from behind stat is a very good one. In your method of evaluation, you must think Tim Tebow is a great QB because he took that Bronco team to the playoffs in 2011 and won a round in the playoffs when that team had been losing for years. Tebows stats in regard to QB ranking and completion percentage compare well with Luck. You are a new Colts fan. I have been watching them since the days of Johnny Unitas. I don't hate Luck and I never did. I do not think he is as good as most fans here believe he is. I thought RGIII was better and was going to be a lot better in the NFL than Luck and I still do. Yes, my personal preference would have been for the Colts to keep their annual contender for MVP for another four or five years and develop a young QB behind him. Curtis Painter was a sham. We should already have had Peyton's replacement developing behind him. The Polians bought into Peytons near invincibility as a QB who just didn't get injured and played through them when he did. I read what Sims and Parcell said about a Luck and I think they had it right. He lacks arm strength to throw the long ball. Passes come up short all of the time. I watched very carefully and I just don't think Luck will make the leap in improvement that will be necessary to even come close to Peyton Manning's achievements. This is just my opinion. I am still a Colts fan but angry with the management and the owner for their treatment of Peyton Manning. If anything, I may be coming to the end of my being a fan of the NFL and any team after Peyton's career is done. There are just too many players being maimed and injured and suffering lifelong disabilities for playing the game. The NFL is deep into law suits with explayers and that is only going to get worse. They have to change the game dramatically to stop these head injuries. I am not sure the fans will stay when and if they do that. I have stopped watching college football for the same reason. I only started watching Luck after seeing all of the "Suck for Luck" posters at Colts games. But when I did that, I also started watching RGIII. RGIII beat Luck for the Heisman Trophy. RGIII beat Luck for the Rookie of the Year. RGIII will be a league MVP and win more than one Super Bowl in my opinion. It is not clear to me that Luck will ever be an MVP or even get to a Super Bowl. I think there is that much difference between them. RGIII will learn to take less punishment but that option he has with the pistol is very dynamic. Luck actually took more hard hits than RGIII did last year. I think these two QBs will be forever linked and while RGIII may not have as long of a career as Luck, I think he will continue to widen the gap that separates them. These are just my opinons from being an observer for over 50 years. I really don't care if you "get it" or not..... :dancing:

Maybe they should just play flag football??? They know the risk before they decided to play and they get compensated very well for it...no one forced them to play the game just like no one ever forced me to play..i did it because i loved the game..Football is brutal, it's not for everyone but if you take away the physical nature it's not football anymore...The violence of the game is the reason it's so popular..If they keep changing the game and making it softer and softer the fans will leave and they will lose billions and eventually there will be no NFL. 

[John Dee]

Wow....   hey genius...   what team led the league in 3rd down completion %..?     The "MONEY" down that a lot of QB's struggle with.     HMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm ?

 

Who set the rookie #1 draft pick record for rookie season WINS?    hmmmmmmmmmmm?

 

Who had 7 comeback wins?       yes...  7,

 

Who started a rookie QB, rookie WR, rookie TE, Rookie TE, Rookie RB, in a PLAYOFF GAME?

 

HMMMM?    Oh INDY

 

Those are winning STATS...       that result in W's.    Not fluff.

 

I don't think I am the one who does that, I think that you do that. Unless you only look at passing yards, Luck isn't in the top five rookie QBs of all time. If you use just that one stat, then yes, he is. But if you look at QB rating, completion percentage and turnovers, then he isn't even close.... He is ahead of Ryan Leaf though.... :dancing:

[HtownColt]

It's just funny every time I got to the Colts football section and seeing "Luck is already Elite" in a title thread. If he is elite "already" then we must be lowering the standards of elite. And I love Andrew Luck he is a phenomenal QB but simply not elite already

[jshipp23]

Why? Both were way overhyped and they were both number one picks. You may not like it but that is a comparison. The answer to your first question is both. He was way overhyped and the jury is still out on him. If he comes back and improves this year then he may be the real deal. If he stays the same or regresses then he may never be the franchise QB he was hyped to be. That doesn't mean that he will ever sink as low as Russell. He won't be out of the league but I would not be surprised to seem him slide into a backup roll in three or four years..... :dancing:

Wow...You should donate your brain to science!

[jshipp23]

You go GC..... 

 

Circumstances are the key element in ANY discussion like this.     Most look at stats...  when they should be looking at the situation.    

 

..    and one factor that totally "skews" this is the simple fact that when Indy drafted PM and Luck they were the WORST team in the league.     Same for Cam.  

 

RG3 and Wilson were drafted by "playoff" caliber teams.      Washington trading UP to get the QB.    And SEA simply getting lucky, so far, with a 3rd round pick.       After they spent big bucks on FA on Mat Flyynn.

 

The lot are really not comparable...       Every team and circumstance is unique.  

SIMPLIFIED GENIUS !!! Maybe the sheep will understand ???

[ColtStrong]

If anything, I may be coming to the end of my being a fan of the NFL and any team after Peyton's career is done.

Good riddance. No one will miss you.

[ColtStrong]

Wow....   hey genius...   what team led the league in 3rd down completion %..?     The "MONEY" down that a lot of QB's struggle with.     HMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm ?

 

Who set the rookie #1 draft pick record for rookie season WINS?    hmmmmmmmmmmm?

 

Who had 7 comeback wins?       yes...  7,

 

Who started a rookie QB, rookie WR, rookie TE, Rookie TE, Rookie RB, in a PLAYOFF GAME?

 

HMMMM?    Oh INDY

 

Those are winning STATS...       that result in W's.    Not fluff.

You're wasting your time responding to him. Some people get old and enjoy their last years on earth. Others find negativity and fault in everything. Heaven forbid he should say something nice.

[Superman]

Yes, I was being a bit facetious, but so many people are telling the OP what is elite and yet the elite QBs didn't win a thing this year.    If you haven't won the SB in a long time like Brady and you have won a couple recently like Eli, when do you decide to let Eli be elite and when do you decide that Brady is no longer elite?  Or are we saying that once elite, always elite? 

 

Speaking for myself, I'm saying that the correlation between elite and winning championships isn't as pronounced as it's made out to be. I don't think there's any question that Brady is a better quarterback now than he was in 2004. Aaron Rodgers has been significantly better the past two seasons than he was in 2010 when they won the Super Bowl (might have put together the best two year stretch of any passer in NFL history).

 

Eli isn't elite because his performance is too erratic. He's had a couple really nice seasons, and he has a couple Super Bowls, but he's up and down every year.

[Superman]

I don't think I am the one who does that, I think that you do that. Unless you only look at passing yards, Luck isn't in the top five rookie QBs of all time. If you use just that one stat, then yes, he is. But if you look at QB rating, completion percentage and turnovers, then he isn't even close.... He is ahead of Ryan Leaf though....

 

Is Peyton Manning?

[OlBlu]

You're wasting your time responding to him. Some people get old and enjoy their last years on earth. Others find negativity and fault in everything. Heaven forbid he should say something nice.

 

I say nice things all of the time. Just now about Andrew Luck...... :dancing:

[OlBlu]

Good riddance. No one will miss you.

 

That is for certain. Irsay doesn't care about any of the fans he alienated. He will when that stadium ceases being sold out. They have run through their waiting list and they are calling back fans who have deserted the team trying to sell them tickets. I know because a couple of members of my family were season ticket holders. They aren't anymore. But, like you say, we will not be missed. I wonder how many people who feel like I do no longer miss the Colts? More than a few, I would say. I remain a fan of the Colts but not of Irsay or Andrew Luck but Luck still has a chance with me, Irsay does not.... :dancing:

[OlBlu]

Maybe they should just play flag football??? They know the risk before they decided to play and they get compensated very well for it...no one forced them to play the game just like no one ever forced me to play..i did it because i loved the game..Football is brutal, it's not for everyone but if you take away the physical nature it's not football anymore...The violence of the game is the reason it's so popular..If they keep changing the game and making it softer and softer the fans will leave and they will lose billions and eventually there will be no NFL. 

 

I guess I look at it differently. Coal miners were once viewed the same way (my father and Grandfather were miners). Nobody forced them to go into those mine shafts and get black lung and other ailments or get blown to kingdom come. Unions changed all of that. The owners would never install any safety equipment because they didn't care if the miners got maimed or injured. Neither do the NFL owners or the fans. How well compensated are you if you are crippled for life or your brain makes you commit suicide or you can't remember anything? I agree with what you say but does that make it right. I can see myself leaning toward not wanting to be involved in all of that. Perhaps there should be no NFL and the world may come to that conclusion some day. I am old but if I was raising a family, I would not let a son of mine play football. I think that will happen more and more in the future. But that is a different and perhaps very importand discussion that deserves to be its own topic..... :dancing:

[OlBlu]

You go GC..... 

 

Circumstances are the key element in ANY discussion like this.     Most look at stats...  when they should be looking at the situation.    

 

..    and one factor that totally "skews" this is the simple fact that when Indy drafted PM and Luck they were the WORST team in the league.     Same for Cam.  

 

RG3 and Wilson were drafted by "playoff" caliber teams.      Washington trading UP to get the QB.    And SEA simply getting lucky, so far, with a 3rd round pick.       After they spent big bucks on FA on Mat Flyynn.

 

The lot are really not comparable...       Every team and circumstance is unique.  

 

The Redskins were a playoff caliber team? Really? They were not even close until RGIII came along. They were usually the third or fourth best team in their division. Not any more and most of that is because or RGIII and a very good running back. They did have a good defense though and perhaps that is what you meant. I don't think they were playoff ready. Seattle certainly was. The Colts were only one year removed from a ten win season and not that far removed from a Super Bowl appearance so I don't think they were as devoid of talent as you make out. If Manning had not been hurt the year before they would have one ten games again and made the playoffs..... :dancing:

[SilentHill]

Why? Both were way overhyped and they were both number one picks. You may not like it but that is a comparison. The answer to your first question is both. He was way overhyped and the jury is still out on him. If he comes back and improves this year then he may be the real deal. If he stays the same or regresses then he may never be the franchise QB he was hyped to be. That doesn't mean that he will ever sink as low as Russell. He won't be out of the league but I would not be surprised to seem him slide into a backup roll in three or four years..... :dancing:

 

Because Luck has more wins in his rookie season that Russel has in his entire career?

 

Luck also has more passing yards and touchdowns in his rookie season than Russel had in his entire career.

[ColtStrong]

That is for certain. Irsay doesn't care about any of the fans he alienated. He will when that stadium ceases being sold out. They have run through their waiting list and they are calling back fans who have deserted the team trying to sell them tickets. I know because a couple of members of my family were season ticket holders. They aren't anymore. But, like you say, we will not be missed. I wonder how many people who feel like I do no longer miss the Colts? More than a few, I would say. I remain a fan of the Colts but not of Irsay or Andrew Luck but Luck still has a chance with me, Irsay does not.... :dancing:

Talk about being old and crotchety..... Too bad none of what you say will come true. And just because your family is no longer season ticket holders doesn't mean squat. I highly doubt your family is representative of the whole Colts fanbase. The NFL is much bigger than you give it credit for. Fans will continue to show up and spend money regardless of what you think.

 

Please stop wasting people's time with your "opinions". It's obvious you're in the .0000001% minority. I'm all for people having an opinion, but sometimes you're better off not saying anything.

[Flash7]

The Redskins were a playoff caliber team? Really? They were not even close until RGIII came along. They were usually the third or fourth best team in their division. Not any more and most of that is because or RGIII and a very good running back. They did have a good defense though and perhaps that is what you meant. I don't think they were playoff ready. Seattle certainly was. The Colts were only one year removed from a ten win season and not that far removed from a Super Bowl appearance so I don't think they were as devoid of talent as you make out. If Manning had not been hurt the year before they would have one ten games again and made the playoffs..... :dancing:

The team that was one year removed from the playoffs and last year's team were completely different. You should know that-- along with Manning, we released most of the "old Colts team" and built the monster with a "new Colts" team. The point that you made about being 1-year removed from the playoffs and recenty playing in the SuperBowl is invalid. The fact is, the Colts were a 2-14 team when Luck took over.

[ColtStrong]

I can see myself leaning toward not wanting to be involved in all of that.

Perhaps you should start now and stop watching games, and stop posting here. OK? You're just digging a hole you have no chance of getting out of. Be a man of conviction and stop posting, that'll show us.