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Coffeedrinker

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Here are two examples of what I've been saying about Brown since I first watch him run in a Colts uniform. Brown is going to run to a spot if there is no one there he has the speed to take it a long ways, if not he's going no where. Brown just does not have the vision or the ability to anticipate where the holes are going to open.

Example #1

DB%252520example%252520%2525231.JPG

Sorry it's grainy. Here there are two holes for DB to try to hit. Instead he runs right into two Colts players for a two yard gain. Watching the play, if he cuts to his right Reitz is in position to block the coming safety.

Example #2

DB%252520example%252520%2525232.JPG

Same thing. He has two choices to try and cut to. Instead he runs right into the guy Reitz is blocking for a two yard gain. At least he should try to run to Reitz' backside

I'm not saying if he hits the holes I have pointed out he scores TDs, but that is the difference between a two yard gain and a 4 or 5 yard gain. This is why Addai, Carter and even James have looked good this preseason, the holes are there, they have the patience and the vision to see them and then hit the open hole. Brown just does not have that.

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I finally got a good image of the end of Example #2.

DB%252520example%252520%2525233.JPG

This is just embarrassing. As I continue watching the game I will see if Carter has a similar situation and I will show how he handled it.

Thanks, you have confirmed what I have been saying. He runs the ball like a pu :cat: y.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

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Wooow this is a prime example of over exaggeration... you do realize defenders stay on their blocks sometimes until the runner comes to them right? There was no hole, do you not see woodson and 59 there? and Reitz did not contain 90 which is WHY brown tried to spin him off... He did not turn his back... you even heard the commentators in the game say he spun off the defender lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWcVzDILOUA

1:33 is a perfect example of browns vision against the Pats

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Wooow this is a prime example of over exaggeration... you do realize defenders stay on their blocks sometimes until the runner comes to them right? There was no hole, do you not see woodson and 59 there? and Reitz did not contain 90 which is WHY brown tried to spin him off... He did not turn his back... you even heard the commentators in the game say he spun off the defender lol

1:33 is a perfect example of browns vision against the Pats

This is a prime example of people who go by what someone says and not by actually watching the game. The holes were there, he did not spin off the defender and I'm not sure which announcers said that, but it wasn't Simms or Eagle.

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Coffee,

Nice post and I have been saying this for quite sometime. Brown is not cut out for a zone blocking scheme like we run, where you must recognize the hole. He does not see the hole very well at all, or he simply does not wait for it to develope.

This explains a lot of his lateral movement and hesitation at the line. If he were in a scheme were you hit a specific hole and go I believe he would thrive, similar to the say the Steelers offense.

Very nice post Coffee.

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Coffee,

Nice post and I have been saying this for quite sometime. Brown is not cut out for a zone blocking scheme like we run, where you must recognize the hole. He does not see the hole very well at all, or he simply does not wait for it to develope.

This explains a lot of his lateral movement and hesitation at the line. If he were in a scheme were you hit a specific hole and go I believe he would thrive, similar to the say the Steelers offense.

Very nice post Coffee.

That's almost exactly what I have been saying. He reminds me a lot of a runner like Willie Parker. Because I think Brown has excellent speed and once he's 5+ yards beyond the LOS he runs with power and shows some moves but for that first 10-12 yards (he lines up about 7 yards behind the LOS) he just runs straight ahead.

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This is a prime example of people who go by what someone says and not by actually watching the game. The holes were there, he did not spin off the defender and I'm not sure which announcers said that, but it wasn't Simms or Eagle.

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I think you wasnt paying attention, it was sims co announcer who said it and it was a spin because he did not fall on his back he spun.. I dont listen to what ppl say either, if i did i would have agreed with you, there was no holes if there was any holes he would have found it... its not hard finding a hole mate, there was none and he tried to spin off the defender which that defender is BJ Raji who is an absolute beast in the run. You hear all the time about the speed of the game, you pics do not do any justice if that was the actual film by the time you blink those supposed "holes" that you suggest would be gone cause woodson was coming from the middle while 59 had containment on the left and ragi on the right and another right infront of him.... There is no hole when your surrounded mate.

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That's almost exactly what I have been saying. He reminds me a lot of a runner like Willie Parker. Because I think Brown has excellent speed and once he's 5+ yards beyond the LOS he runs with power and shows some moves but for that first 10-12 yards (he lines up about 7 yards behind the LOS) he just runs straight ahead.

It almost has to be a hole recognition problem Coffee, but you would think going into his third year he would be somewhat better at dentifying the holes once they open. It would not surprise me if he does not make the roster and is delegated to the practice squad, if that is possible.

In my opinion he should have already showed improvement but he has not.

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I do think DB might do better in an offense like the Panthers. Addai and Hart (and possibly Carter) can be elusive vs the first contact and then get yards. Brown mostly struggles to avoid the first guy in his path, it seems like.

One suggestion for Brown, like giving tips to that coach in WaterBoy to imagine the opposing coach is a baby - think of every team you play as the St. Louis Rams or Jaguars, his best run in his rookie year came vs the Rams, his best elusive runs in pre-season game 1 now came vs the Rams. I almost feel it is mental with Donald Brown and not ability related.

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Wooow this is a prime example of over exaggeration... you do realize defenders stay on their blocks sometimes until the runner comes to them right? There was no hole, do you not see woodson and 59 there? and Reitz did not contain 90 which is WHY brown tried to spin him off... He did not turn his back... you even heard the commentators in the game say he spun off the defender lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWcVzDILOUA

1:33 is a perfect example of browns vision against the Pats

there are going to be holes everywhere this year .this line will make them, break out year for brown if they dont cut him

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I think you wasnt paying attention, it was sims co announcer who said it and it was a spin because he did not fall on his back he spun..

You need to pay more attention. It was Eagle and he said, "A little juke move by Brown and he spins his way out to the 22.". And when you watch the play he turns his back on the defender and spins on the ground. He may have been trying to do a spin move but he did not succeed.

I dont listen to what ppl say either, if i did i would have agreed with you,
:)
there was no holes if there was any holes he would have found it... its not hard finding a hole mate,
Not for most running backs but it seems to be a consistent problem for Brown. And the issue is not finding the hole, it's anticipating where the hole will be. Because in a zone blocking scheme the hole is predicated on defensive alignment and defensive movement after the snap.
there was none and he tried to spin off the defender which that defender is BJ Raji who is an absolute beast in the run.
The beast was blocked three yards down the field, again if he wasn't going to try and get to open field, at least he could run behind Reitz rather than running right into the defender.
You hear all the time about the speed of the game, you pics do not do any justice if that was the actual film by the time you blink those supposed "holes" that you suggest would be gone cause woodson was coming from the middle while 59 had containment on the left and ragi on the right and another right infront of him.... There is no hole when your surrounded mate.

Yes, that is why I said they would not have been TDs but 4 or 5 yards gains. Of all those players you mentioned none were within 5 yards of Brown and had he moved to the right or the left it would have taken each player a couple of yards to catch him. Now, I wasn't a math major in college, but to me, the 2 yards he did gain + the 2 yards extra he would have gained had he not run right into the defender equals 4 yards. Then if he falls forward for one yard that equals 5 yards. That is the difference between the good NFL backs and the career back-ups.
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It almost has to be a hole recognition problem Coffee, but you would think going into his third year he would be somewhat better at dentifying the holes once they open. It would not surprise me if he does not make the roster and is delegated to the practice squad, if that is possible.

In my opinion he should have already showed improvement but he has not.

Hey Coffee,

Example#1 seems reasonable, but I'm not so sure about Example#2.

In Example#2, from that point of view is appears that the only obvious hole was to take a hard left (parallel to the line of scrimmage), and out run Reitz's man to the outside. From his point of view, I'm not sure it'd be any different.

That being said based on a still. While the motion may change my mind.

Also, someone mentioned the RB Coaching. Didn't we just hire a new RB coach over the winter? He's only had a few weeks with him.

I'm not a big fan, nor detractor of Brown. I'd like very much to see him succeed, but based on the still picture, I'm just not sure of Example#2.

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It almost has to be a hole recognition problem Coffee, but you would think going into his third year he would be somewhat better at dentifying the holes once they open. It would not surprise me if he does not make the roster and is delegated to the practice squad, if that is possible.

In my opinion he should have already showed improvement but he has not.

It's an anticipation problem, IMO. He cannot read the defense and does not know the oline's blocking assignments well enough to anticipate and adjust.

It's not possible for Brown to be on the practice squad, if a player is active for 6 games in a row for one season or 9 games during a season they are not eligible for the practice squad. That being said, I will be surprised if the Colts cut him but I won't be shocked. I will be surprised because that is not the Colts way, I will not be shocked because I don't think Brown is good for the Colts O. I am NOT a J.James fan but he has shown more improvement this preseason than Brown has in his career.

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I finally got a good image of the end of Example #2.

DB%252520example%252520%2525233.JPG

This is just embarrassing. As I continue watching the game I will see if Carter has a similar situation and I will show how he handled it.

GB defender Nos. 79, 50 and 90 are unblocked on the play. Photo 2 shows 79 diving and just missing a tackle, while 50 helps fill what's left of a very small window. From Brown's point of view most everything to the right was filled with GB defenders if looking to try and turn the run upfield. Brown runs toward No. 90, who makes the tackle (again because he's unblocked) and it would appear running off his blockers backside (toward Nos. 79 and 50) would not have been an option. Without having the clip at game speed, most particularly, which we can't see here, I think Brown made the right decision. Only Barry Sanders could have made a 90 degree turn to the left past the only blocked defender and made a perpendicular dash toward the left sideline to even try and outrun No. 90.

As far as Donald Brown is concerned, yes he needs work. He's shown flashes of progress in his pass defense and running though. As a Colt fan, I hope he has a great year and I'll give him benefit of the doubt. I think by season's end he'll have been a solid contributor. We'll see.

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He's going into his make or break year. If the Colts feel that he's good, he'll stay, if not, then he'll go. He's not a good blocker, and he's not exactly the smartest, but he has potential. If the Colts line is good, so is he. Just look at him in his rookie season, he was great backing up for Addai. Don't give up on him yet. BTW, great pics!

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First of all, I don't believe he's an every down back.

Secondly, he could really become a weapon if he were used the way New England used Kevin Faulk, or to a smaller degree the way the Saints used Reggie Bush. I don't think he has the overall talent of Bush, but I do think he could be used out of the back field more than he has been and could really become a weapon out of the backfield if he were used the way Faulk is used by New England.

He's had flashes of talent and some good plays but he hasn't been very consistent.

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You need to pay more attention. It was Eagle and he said, "A little juke move by Brown and he spins his way out to the 22.". And when you watch the play he turns his back on the defender and spins on the ground. He may have been trying to do a spin move but he did not succeed.

:)

Not for most running backs but it seems to be a consistent problem for Brown. And the issue is not finding the hole, it's anticipating where the hole will be. Because in a zone blocking scheme the hole is predicated on defensive alignment and defensive movement after the snap.

The beast was blocked three yards down the field, again if he wasn't going to try and get to open field, at least he could run behind Reitz rather than running right into the defender.

Yes, that is why I said they would not have been TDs but 4 or 5 yards gains. Of all those players you mentioned none were within 5 yards of Brown and had he moved to the right or the left it would have taken each player a couple of yards to catch him. Now, I wasn't a math major in college, but to me, the 2 yards he did gain + the 2 yards extra he would have gained had he not run right into the defender equals 4 yards. Then if he falls forward for one yard that equals 5 yards. That is the difference between the good NFL backs and the career back-ups.

Have you ever played football? I played all from high school tried out for my uni at western michigan at LB, didnt make the cut.. Defenders hold on blocks just like BJ Raji was.. Thats why you dont see some RB's trying to run on the outside cause although it may look like the defense dont have containment on the outside they actually do. Its kind of unfair and wrong to judge Brown on this one play cause its just one play... plus i can recall plenty occasions where addai had holes on 3rd and 1's but he didnt take that hole.. does that mean he doesnt fit the system? Im not saying there were holes but brown missed it im just saying you have no evidence that brown doesnt fit the system because he actually does, he was having some great games late in the season before he pulled a hammy.

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GB defender Nos. 79, 50 and 90 are unblocked on the play. Photo 2 shows 79 diving and just missing a tackle, while 50 helps fill what's left of a very small window. From Brown's point of view most everything to the right was filled with GB defenders if looking to try and turn the run upfield. Brown runs toward No. 90, who makes the tackle (again because he's unblocked) and it would appear running off his blockers backside (toward Nos. 79 and 50) would not have been an option. Without having the clip at game speed, most particularly, which we can't see here, I think Brown made the right decision. Only Barry Sanders could have made a 90 degree turn to the left past the only blocked defender and made a perpendicular dash toward the left sideline to even try and outrun No. 90.

As far as Donald Brown is concerned, yes he needs work. He's shown flashes of progress in his pass defense and running though. As a Colt fan, I hope he has a great year and I'll give him benefit of the doubt. I think by season's end he'll have been a solid contributor. We'll see.

Plus one on that post

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First of all, I don't believe he's an every down back.

Secondly, he could really become a weapon if he were used the way New England used Kevin Faulk, or to a smaller degree the way the Saints used Reggie Bush. I don't think he has the overall talent of Bush, but I do think he could be used out of the back field more than he has been and could really become a weapon out of the backfield if he were used the way Faulk is used by New England.

He's had flashes of talent and some good plays but he hasn't been very consistent.

We haven't had an every down back since EJ, and there isn't one on our current roster. Delone carter is yet unproven, but he shows more as a potential every down back than what either Addai or Brown have proven during their years as Colts. With Carter, he seems to be able to get the job done regardless of 3rd & short or 1st & ten. The RB duties will continue to be split. Addai and Brown will both be required to both run and catch out of the backfield. Carter may be more of the 3rd and short solution but that remains to be seen - but I very much like him. I agree, DB is pretty good when in space. Hopefully, the Colts will find ways to exploit that. I like the way things bode for us this year behind an O-line that should improve each game once the starting rotation is settled.

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Have you ever played football? I played all from high school tried out for my uni at western michigan at LB, didnt make the cut.. Defenders hold on blocks just like BJ Raji was.. Thats why you dont see some RB's trying to run on the outside cause although it may look like the defense dont have containment on the outside they actually do. Its kind of unfair and wrong to judge Brown on this one play cause its just one play... plus i can recall plenty occasions where addai had holes on 3rd and 1's but he didnt take that hole.. does that mean he doesnt fit the system? Im not saying there were holes but brown missed it im just saying you have no evidence that brown doesnt fit the system because he actually does, he was having some great games late in the season before he pulled a hammy.

Smitto, I coached at Western Michigan and I was the one that cut you for lack of recognition J/K lol. I agree that defenders do hold, coming from a football background myself.

Once Brown breaks through the hole he seems like a very good back, but finding the hole is the issue. In a zone blocking scheme you must recognize the hole once it opens, and the hole can open from any point.

You are right Addai has done this as well with his little hop step, but he has gotten better at it. All we want is for Brown to improve. He is a good back and as a Colts fan I wish him the best, I had high hopes for him coming out of college.

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To the OP - do you have a concluding shot of the play in Example 1?

This is as fast as I could do it.

Here he is at the beginning of the play. This is a draw so the defense is reading pass.

DB%252520example%252520%2525236.JPG

I take back my comment earlier. If he cuts to the left, and as you can see the hole is already there one step after he gets the hand-off, this could be 6 points with his speed and toughness down the field.

This is how it ends.

DB%252520example%252520%2525234.JPG

DB%252520example%252520%2525235.JPG

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Have you ever played football? I played all from high school tried out for my uni at western michigan at LB, didnt make the cut.. Defenders hold on blocks just like BJ Raji was.. Thats why you dont see some RB's trying to run on the outside cause although it may look like the defense dont have containment on the outside they actually do. Its kind of unfair and wrong to judge Brown on this one play cause its just one play... plus i can recall plenty occasions where addai had holes on 3rd and 1's but he didnt take that hole.. does that mean he doesnt fit the system? Im not saying there were holes but brown missed it im just saying you have no evidence that brown doesnt fit the system because he actually does, he was having some great games late in the season before he pulled a hammy.

You know who else played high school football? Al Bundy. For the record that is a JOKE, please don't take it serisouly.

Look I respect people who played football and I am sure on things they proably do know a little more than some fans but I don't think it makes anyone more qualifed to say what they see on the field or not. Several people who didn't play football are very good at picking things up (and not just on a message board) I really doubt John Clayton played football but love him or hate him he is been one of the biggest reports on ESPN for years.

As for Brown, like I've said in the past it's one thing to struggle when all the backs are struggling in the offense. It's another to still struggle when the other backs on the roster are breaking off long runs in the same system. Addai, Carter, Evans, and James have all had very nice runs this pre-season. The only one who realy hsan't is Brown. To me that's a problem. The fact he didn't see the field in the playoff game last year and drafted a back this year (granted to do something different than what Brown does) seems to suggest the Colts have not been pleased with what they have seen from Brown. I think the Colts will give him one more year but if he doesn't produce this year he's going to be out of excuses and probably out of here.

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Have you ever played football? I played all from high school tried out for my uni at western michigan at LB, didnt make the cut..

Yes, high school I was a center and at Wabash College I was a center and FB (I was small for a center even for a DIV III school) and I've coached either the offensive line or offense for over 15 years.
Defenders hold on blocks just like BJ Raji was.. Thats why you dont see some RB's trying to run on the outside cause although it may look like the defense dont have containment on the outside they actually do.
Umm, defenders aren't the only ones that have a say in the matter, the guy blocking them does as well and Reitz had this guy blocked, he was driving him backwards, Raji wasn't sitting there waiting to toss Reitz aside when he saw the play, he was fortunate that DB ran right into him.
Its kind of unfair and wrong to judge Brown on this one play cause its just one play... plus i can recall plenty occasions where addai had holes on 3rd and 1's but he didnt take that hole.. does that mean he doesnt fit the system?

I'm not judging him on one play or even the two plays. I'm judging him on what I have watched since he became a Colt, I just had finally figured out how to get some good visuals to show what I (and others) have been saying about Brown.

Im not saying there were holes but brown missed it im just saying you have no evidence that brown doesnt fit the system because he actually does, he was having some great games late in the season before he pulled a hammy.
I just showed my evidence, I've explained what needs to happen behind a zone blocking scheme, I explained and showed how Brown did not do that on separate occasions and even drew conclusions on what would have happened if he knew how to anticipate. If you chose to NOT see it then I really can't help that.
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Smitto, I coached at Western Michigan and I was the one that cut you for lack of recognition J/K lol. I agree that defenders do hold, coming from a football background myself.

Once Brown breaks through the hole he seems like a very good back, but finding the hole is the issue. In a zone blocking scheme you must recognize the hole once it opens, and the hole can open from any point.

You are right Addai has done this as well with his little hop step, but he has gotten better at it. All we want is for Brown to improve. He is a good back and as a Colts fan I wish him the best, I had high hopes for him coming out of college.

You actually made my heart skip a beat there for a minute lol, brown still has alot of things to work on. I think sims said it well during the packers game.. there are some guys who just GET it coming out of college "he was talking about QB's" so its not a big transition for them, and i think the same thing goes for RB's some guys can just come in and play from the get go, others need time and thats what i think brown needs.

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I finally got a good image of the end of Example #2.

DB%252520example%252520%2525233.JPG

This is just embarrassing. As I continue watching the game I will see if Carter has a similar situation and I will show how he handled it.

Instead of running right of his O-lineman and get an extra yard or two, he runs directly into the blocked defender *. You have 3 downs to get 10 yards and that extra yard

or two could be the difference in an extra set of downs or a punt.

He is a soft runner, if he don't have a hole to drive a truck through, he is useless!!!

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This is as fast as I could do it.

Here he is at the beginning of the play. This is a draw so the defense is reading pass.

DB%252520example%252520%2525236.JPG

I take back my comment earlier. If he cuts to the left, and as you can see the hole is already there one step after he gets the hand-off, this could be 6 points with his speed and toughness down the field.

This is how it ends.

DB%252520example%252520%2525234.JPG

DB%252520example%252520%2525235.JPG

Yeah, as presented here in Example 1 I can see how that could have been a homerun running to the left instead of a 6,7 yd gain or whatever it was, especially with that DB back-peddling. Good contain on the edge blocking. I wonder how Brown is being brought along by the new RB coach at this point. Space like that is right where we want him. I've heard Brown say (paraphrasing) that he knows he's here to supplement the passing game....and to help with that in whatever way he can. The team has had a very low percentage of runs over 20 yds for a while now.

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Yes, high school I was a center and at Wabash College I was a center and FB (I was small for a center even for a DIV III school) and I've coached either the offensive line or offense for over 15 years.

Umm, defenders aren't the only ones that have a say in the matter, the guy blocking them does as well and Reitz had this guy blocked, he was driving him backwards, Raji wasn't sitting there waiting to toss Reitz aside when he saw the play, he was fortunate that DB ran right into him.

I'm not judging him on one play or even the two plays. I'm judging him on what I have watched since he became a Colt, I just had finally figured out how to get some good visuals to show what I (and others) have been saying about Brown.

I just showed my evidence, I've explained what needs to happen behind a zone blocking scheme, I explained and showed how Brown did not do that on separate occasions and even drew conclusions on what would have happened if he knew how to anticipate. If you chose to see it then I really can't help that.

Well i dont think so, brown has good vision and he knows what holes to take on most occasions. Its pretty hard to sprout when your in the shadows. Brown is a good RB for the colts.

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Well i dont think so, brown has good vision and he knows what holes to take on most occasions. Its pretty hard to sprout when your in the shadows.

Really? That's what we all do here, it doesn't slow anyone down.
Brown is a good RB for the colts.

Now that is a claim in which there is insufficient evidence.

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Well i dont think so, brown has good vision and he knows what holes to take on most occasions. Its pretty hard to sprout when your in the shadows. Brown is a good RB for the colts.

Based on what? The Jags game last year? Sorry he can only ride that so long. All this boils down to your production and to this point Brown has not given us much. Now like I said in an earlier post it's one thing to struggle when the rest of the backs on the line are also struggling which has been the case for most of Brown's career here. Still the fact he didn't see the field the in the Jets playoff game last year and the Colts felt the need to draft a running back in the draft and resign Addai says a lot about how the Colts feel about Brown at the moment. Now add to that another lack luster pre-season while the other backs in the same system are having some decent games is also not doing much to raise peoples hopes for Brown. Sorry Brown might have all the tools in the world or have everything it should take to work in the Colts system but right now it's not showing up on the field and if it doesn't show u pthere then no he's not a good running back for the Colts.

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Yeah, as presented here in Example 1 I can see how that could have been a homerun running to the left instead of a 6,7 yd gain or whatever it was,

I don't know exactly how long the run was, but the blue line is the LOS.
especially with that DB back-peddling. Good contain on the edge blocking. I wonder how Brown is being brought along by the new RB coach at this point. Space like that is right where we want him. I've heard Brown say (paraphrasing) that he knows he's here to supplement the passing game....and to help with that in whatever way he can. The team has had a very low percentage of runs over 20 yds for a while now.

In the NFL that hole is considered big enough to drive a truck through.

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Based on what? The Jags game last year? Sorry he can only ride that so long. All this boils down to your production and to this point Brown has not given us much. Now like I said in an earlier post it's one thing to struggle when the rest of the backs on the line are also struggling which has been the case for most of Brown's career here. Still the fact he didn't see the field the in the Jets playoff game last year and the Colts felt the need to draft a running back in the draft and resign Addai says a lot about how the Colts feel about Brown at the moment. Now add to that another lack luster pre-season while the other backs in the same system are having some decent games is also not doing much to raise peoples hopes for Brown. Sorry Brown might have all the tools in the world or have everything it should take to work in the Colts system but right now it's not showing up on the field and if it doesn't show u pthere then no he's not a good running back for the Colts.

To go along with what you said.

Delone Carter 17 81 4.8 16 0

Darren Evans 15 77 5.1 23 0

Joseph Addai 11 52 4.7 19 0

Donald Brown 11 28 2.5 11 0

Javarris James 7 26 3.7 15 0

Chad Spann 5 14 2.8 8 0

Brown had 21 against the Rams in the first preseason game.

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