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Very early look at Colts 2013 free agents


Coltswarriors

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Hold on now.... let's come up for some air here and take a deep, deep breath....

I haven't read Stampedeblue much lately, but the salary cap numbers for next year at roughly 40+ that we'll have to spend, not 82-90 Mill. I don't know if that's a misread by you, or an error by them. Either way, I think it's way, Way, WAY off.

Second, Injury prone, means just that. Prone to injury. Being currently injured doesn't mean injury prone. Of course Chapman went lower due to his injury. He hurst his knee in early October, and bypassed surgery for 3 1/2 months so he could help his team win the National Championship. I don't know if he'll play this year. But there's no one in football circles who has called him 'injury prone'...

Let's make sure we're all on the same page so perhaps we can find some common ground before the latest raging internet debate starts.... Shall we? Hmmmm???

:thmup:

p.s. -- Ted, if you could please link the story that has the salary cap figures on Stampede Blue here, that would be appreciated. Or at least, try to guide me there. I just went to their website and couldn't find it. Not saying it's not there, only that I couldn't find it. Any help you could give me with this would be great.

Thanks again....

p.s.s. -- Here's a guess... the figure of $82-90 million is approximately what we ARE spending THIS YEAR. Not what we'll have to spend NEXT year. Here's a story that references the $82 Million figure. It's at the bottom, and the story is short.

http://profootballta...-of-dead-money/

1.the Colts WILL BE AT LEAST 80 million under the cap next season unless Wayne and Mathis are owed more then what the average per year salary of their contracts is, which I doubt they are because if they were the team would have already released Dwight Freeney. 40+ million doesn't say exactly how much the Colts are under the cap, it just says their over 40 million under the cap it still does not say how much they are under the cap. Secondly factor in the team currently being roughly 9.4 million under the cap, the 36 million they dumped in dead cap this off season with releasing Dallas Clark, Peyton Manning, Kelvin Hayden from last season, Gary Brackett, Joseph Addai, Melvin Bulliitt, and uh oh yeah Curtis Painter according to Mike Chapell of the Indy star who has covered the Colts since 1984 none of that money counts against the cap in 2013. Then factor in the 15 million from Luck's signing bonus plus Antonio Johnson's 2 million in cap space, Dwight Freeney's 19 million, and you get at least 80 million in cap space. Unless dead cap space (or at least not all of it) does not count against the cap. I really can't say much more about dead cap space because I can't get your link to work.

2.I'll agree with you on Josh Chapman, but either way the Colts need to take precaution on him and at least sign a good NT this off season. His injury sounds very serous and we don't know if it's career threatening. Plus NT is a difficult position for a rookie to learn, Chapman needs a good veteran to learn under.

3.As for stampede blue again most of that was web posting from Colts fans not writers for the site. So I guess it's not real valid info, but either way judging by the way the Colts defense is playing I think you can make an argument that NT is a pretty big need.

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1. Johnson does not suck. He has been mostly consistent in clogging the middle and keeping the lb's clean. He has had his bad moments but so do all players. He's not meant to be a pass rusher yet he has been collapsing the pocket more recently. He was less than a step away from 2 sacks against the browns. There have been several runs busted up the middle of our defense but every time its happened i rewind the play to double check who the nt was on the play and with the exception of a less than a handful of plays (all season) it was the backup nt in on that play. Im not saying hes pro bowl material by any means but he has played very well for the most part. If chapman can emerge as the nt i think he can be then i think we'll have a very good 1-2 rotation with him and aj. I dont expect tevaseu to be back next year and mckinney is iffy. Id also say that aj could slide over to 5 tech de in 3-4 fronts in running downs.

2. I agree with you completely. I merely brought up the point to explain why our run defense is still poor and inconsistent and its not because if aj. Mathis is much better at chasing s run play down from behind than he is at setting the edge on plays that come to his side. I do not mean to say we should get rid of him though. Far from it.

3 as gavin already pointed out there us a huge difference between being prone to injury and being currently injured. Bob sanders and anthony gonzales were injury prone. Chapman merely is currently injured. Big difference.

1.OK, I will give credit where credit is due. If McKinney were a free agent next season Johnson would stay, but the bottom line is he's not and releasing him saves practically nothing against the cap which is why I anticipate him back. And Johnson does get run over, most of the runs against he Colts either come on the DL side opposite Corey Redding (lately they haven't had too much of an issue with that) or right up the middle at Antonio Johnson. Good NFL team's don't let that happen.

2.I kind of agree with you on Josh Chapman. Granted he may not have an injury history from college, but he still has a pretty serous injury from last October the Colts really should take precaution with and sign a good NT. Plus NT is a tough position to learn, rookies and first year guys coming off IR need good veterans to learn under.

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1.the Colts WILL BE AT LEAST 80 million under the cap next season unless Wayne and Mathis are owed more then what the average per year salary of their contracts is, which I doubt they are because if they were the team would have already released Dwight Freeney. 40+ million doesn't say exactly how much the Colts are under the cap, it just says their over 40 million under the cap it still does not say how much they are under the cap. Secondly factor in the team currently being roughly 9.4 million under the cap, the 36 million they dumped in dead cap this off season with releasing Dallas Clark, Peyton Manning, Kelvin Hayden from last season, Gary Brackett, Joseph Addai, Melvin Bulliitt, and uh oh yeah Curtis Painter according to Mike Chapell of the Indy star who has covered the Colts since 1984 none of that money counts against the cap in 2013. Then factor in the 15 million from Luck's signing bonus plus Antonio Johnson's 2 million in cap space, Dwight Freeney's 19 million, and you get at least 80 million in cap space. Unless dead cap space (or at least not all of it) does not count against the cap. I really can't say much more about dead cap space because I can't get your link to work.

2.I'll agree with you on Josh Chapman, but either way the Colts need to take precaution on him and at least sign a good NT this off season. His injury sounds very serous and we don't know if it's career threatening. Plus NT is a difficult position for a rookie to learn, Chapman needs a good veteran to learn under.

3.As for stampede blue again most of that was web posting from Colts fans not writers for the site. So I guess it's not real valid info, but either way judging by the way the Colts defense is playing I think you can make an argument that NT is a pretty big need.

Ted.....

What is your source on the "AT LEAST 80 MILLION UNDER THE CAP" claim?? There have been many threads around here for months discussing this very issue. I wrote $40+ because I think the number is $43 Mill, but wasn't quite sure. Either way, I've never seen a figure higher than $43. So, what is your source. Can you provide a link?? Otherwise, there have been no stories posted here that support that.... none.

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1.OK, I will give credit where credit is due. If McKinney were a free agent next season Johnson would stay, but the bottom line is he's not and releasing him saves practically nothing against the cap which is why I anticipate him back. And Johnson does get run over, most of the runs against he Colts either come on the DL side opposite Corey Redding (lately they haven't had too much of an issue with that) or right up the middle at Antonio Johnson. Good NFL team's don't let that happen.

2.I kind of agree with you on Josh Chapman. Granted he may not have an injury history from college, but he still has a pretty serous injury from last October the Colts really should take precaution with and sign a good NT. Plus NT is a tough position to learn, rookies and first year guys coming off IR need good veterans to learn under.

Do y'all think johnson could play the 5 tech ?
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Ted.....

What is your source on the "AT LEAST 80 MILLION UNDER THE CAP" claim?? There have been many threads around here for months discussing this very issue. I wrote $40+ because I think the number is $43 Mill, but wasn't quite sure. Either way, I've never seen a figure higher than $43. So, what is your source. Can you provide a link?? Otherwise, there have been no stories posted here that support that.... none.

Well the number I can assure you is at least 15+36+19+10 mill it's all dead cap space (36), freeney's contract (19), and Luck's signing bonus (15) plus 10 mill under the cap all those numbers add up to 80 mill + Johnson's 2 mill=82 mill but with all the expiring contracts next season the Colts will be well under the 53 man roster mark. Unless not all of the Colts 36 million in dead cap doesn't count against the cap or Wayne, Mathis, or Bethea are owed more then their average for the years on their new contract's. Which I highly doubt they are since the team did elect to keep Dwight Freeney. Plus I highly doubt the Colts would have released Dallas Clark, Joseph Addai, Peyton Manning, Melvin Bullitt, or Gary Brackett if they knew their dead cap contract numbers wouldn't be up till the contract's they signed with the team in 2008, 2011, and 2009 were up just ask the experts on the Indy star. Not to mention the fact that Hayden was only released 2 seasons ago because he failed his physical right before entering training camp according to Stampede Blue. Seriously I don't know how or where your getting the 45 million number unless Mathis, Wayne, and Bethea are owed ungodly amounts of money next season or the dead cap numbers of the guys they released add up to 25 mill which I doubt they do otherwise those guys wouldn't have been released except maybe Peyton depending on how long his dead cap numbers lasted.

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IMO Johnson and Mac are the only 2 I'm giving any kind of money.

Link can play every position so he probably stays, and he has played very well at G... he just really has a hard time at T. But he is handy when this team is in a pinch.

Powers.... He is slowly playing his way out of town, plus he like many on this list are INJURED ALOT. I'd pass on most if equal or better talent is available.

Avery... playing for a contract... I have a feeling when he gets it he will be on the injury list weekly. I just don't like him all that much. He's ok... that's about it. For the right price ya, but if he is wanting too much .. bye bye.

Justice and Moala ... dang they have played well but ..... ALWAYS HURT.

a lot of dead weight on that list IMO. The Colts have lots of cap room. They don't need to blow it on 2 or 3 NAMES, I prefer they just use it on 6 or 7 starting caliber players.

Add a solid draft ... and 2013 here comes Indy.

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Do y'all think johnson could play the 5 tech ?

I have no clue but I seriously doubt it, 3 technique is more likely in my opinion the 1 he can play, But so far I have just seen he is just a 0 technique NT not a 1 Tech and have no clue about the others, Maybe the 2 as well
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IMO Johnson and Mac are the only 2 I'm giving any kind of money.

Link can play every position so he probably stays, and he has played very well at G... he just really has a hard time at T. But he is handy when this team is in a pinch.

Powers.... He is slowly playing his way out of town, plus he like many on this list are INJURED ALOT. I'd pass on most if equal or better talent is available.

Avery... playing for a contract... I have a feeling when he gets it he will be on the injury list weekly. I just don't like him all that much. He's ok... that's about it. For the right price ya, but if he is wanting too much .. bye bye.

Justice and Moala ... dang they have played well but ..... ALWAYS HURT.

a lot of dead weight on that list IMO. The Colts have lots of cap room. They don't need to blow it on 2 or 3 NAMES, I prefer they just use it on 6 or 7 starting caliber players.

Add a solid draft ... and 2013 here comes Indy.

Johnson ain't worth anything in a 3-4 an Link ain't worth anything either. Add Rietz, the LS and I agree with you 100%

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Johnson ain't worth anything in a 3-4 an Link ain't worth anything either. Add Rietz, the LS and I agree with you 100%

Dang Bro you are poo pooing pretty much the only 2 who are contributing week in week out. Take away the Jet game and AJ has played very well for an undersized NG.

And Link... well ... he will never get any respect. But I promise you the coaches and his team mates LOVE him. He's sticking for a reason.

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Ahahaha Freeney will likely ask for and get more then what we gave Mathis last offseason keep in mind his agent is Tom Condon but don't worry Grigson UNLIKE POLIAN will be smart enough to avoid Tom Condon clients.

Freeney has been stealing for YEARS now... he ain't getting a fat contract again... I guarantee you....

maybe Jerry Jones might be stupid enough to over pay for the production he gives.. but not too many others.

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Dang Bro you are poo pooing pretty much the only 2 who are contributing week in week out. Take away the Jet game and AJ has played very well for an undersized NG.

And Link... well ... he will never get any respect. But I promise you the coaches and his team mates LOVE him. He's sticking for a reason.

Agreed. We'll see in the offseason what grigson and company think of AJ. Though i dont really think he's undersized but i do agree he's played well. Especially when you consider he's playing a new position (which he's never played in the nfl to my knowledge at 3-4 nt in a 2 gap scheme).

His responsibility is to control the 2 A gaps, the gaps between the LG and C and the C and RG. If he takes the C head on and one of the guards crashes down on him, then the rb runs through an opening off the opposite side of the guard then the rb is running through the B gap, which i believe is the responsibility of the ilb. If the ilb fails to make the play then that's not aj's fault. There have been very few times i recall seeing aj handled by a single blocker.

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Well the number I can assure you is at least 15+36+19+10 mill it's all dead cap space (36), freeney's contract (19), and Luck's signing bonus (15) plus 10 mill under the cap all those numbers add up to 80 mill + Johnson's 2 mill=82 mill but with all the expiring contracts next season the Colts will be well under the 53 man roster mark. Unless not all of the Colts 36 million in dead cap doesn't count against the cap or Wayne, Mathis, or Bethea are owed more then their average for the years on their new contract's. Which I highly doubt they are since the team did elect to keep Dwight Freeney. Plus I highly doubt the Colts would have released Dallas Clark, Joseph Addai, Peyton Manning, Melvin Bullitt, or Gary Brackett if they knew their dead cap contract numbers wouldn't be up till the contract's they signed with the team in 2008, 2011, and 2009 were up just ask the experts on the Indy star. Not to mention the fact that Hayden was only released 2 seasons ago because he failed his physical right before entering training camp according to Stampede Blue. Seriously I don't know how or where your getting the 45 million number unless Mathis, Wayne, and Bethea are owed ungodly amounts of money next season or the dead cap numbers of the guys they released add up to 25 mill which I doubt they do otherwise those guys wouldn't have been released except maybe Peyton depending on how long his dead cap numbers lasted.

I doubt your numbers. I'm not going to research it, or spend any time trying to prove you're wrong, I just think so based on what's been posted in the past.

However, the point I'd like to express is, I really hope your wrong. That's way too much money to have to try to spend in one off season. That or I hope we're paying the 'under spend' penalty next season. That's in place next season, right?

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Well the number I can assure you is at least 15+36+19+10 mill it's all dead cap space (36), freeney's contract (19), and Luck's signing bonus (15) plus 10 mill under the cap all those numbers add up to 80 mill + Johnson's 2 mill=82 mill but with all the expiring contracts next season the Colts will be well under the 53 man roster mark. Unless not all of the Colts 36 million in dead cap doesn't count against the cap or Wayne, Mathis, or Bethea are owed more then their average for the years on their new contract's. Which I highly doubt they are since the team did elect to keep Dwight Freeney. Plus I highly doubt the Colts would have released Dallas Clark, Joseph Addai, Peyton Manning, Melvin Bullitt, or Gary Brackett if they knew their dead cap contract numbers wouldn't be up till the contract's they signed with the team in 2008, 2011, and 2009 were up just ask the experts on the Indy star. Not to mention the fact that Hayden was only released 2 seasons ago because he failed his physical right before entering training camp according to Stampede Blue. Seriously I don't know how or where your getting the 45 million number unless Mathis, Wayne, and Bethea are owed ungodly amounts of money next season or the dead cap numbers of the guys they released add up to 25 mill which I doubt they do otherwise those guys wouldn't have been released except maybe Peyton depending on how long his dead cap numbers lasted.

I'm quite confident your math is not just off, it's spectacularly off. I'm not even sure I want to get into this anymore.

So, unless someone else wants to step in here, I'll politely leave this conversation....

We'll revisit this later this winter.... until then....

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If we can get Freeney for good price which I think we will I'd would love to see him and Mathis retire as Colts. Moala and Johnson to me depend on if we can Get Chapman out their this season but if Chapman plays well I would let Johnson go. I would bring back McAfee for sure. Might have to let Powers walk unless we can get him for a good price. Would give Avery and Stanton another year and between Link and Reitz I'd go Reitz.

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If we can get Freeney for good price which I think we will I'd would love to see him and Mathis retire as Colts. Moala and Johnson to me depend on if we can Get Chapman out their this season but if Chapman plays well I would let Johnson go. I would bring back McAfee for sure. Might have to let Powers walk unless we can get him for a good price. Would give Avery and Stanton another year and between Link and Reitz I'd go Reitz.
i don't see Stanton staying..
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I'm quite confident your math is not just off, it's spectacularly off. I'm not even sure I want to get into this anymore.

So, unless someone else wants to step in here, I'll politely leave this conversation....

We'll revisit this later this winter.... until then....

Once again no sources stating the Colts have more dead cap money for the guys they released next season or that Bethea, Mathis, and Wayne are owed ungodly amounts of money. And my math is certainly not off 15+2+10+36+19 does equal 82 million. Seriously I don't know where or how your getting the Colts being 45 million under the cap, that number can't be right and people are prolly only saying it because no other NFL team is over 45 million under the current salary cap.

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If we can get Freeney for good price which I think we will I'd would love to see him and Mathis retire as Colts. Moala and Johnson to me depend on if we can Get Chapman out their this season but if Chapman plays well I would let Johnson go. I would bring back McAfee for sure. Might have to let Powers walk unless we can get him for a good price. Would give Avery and Stanton another year and between Link and Reitz I'd go Reitz.

Aside from Avery, Stanton, and Freeney I agree with everything you've said. The Colts don't need 3 back up QB's on the roster and their receiving core seems pretty set without Avery. Plus even though it would be nice to see him retire A Colts, I highly highly doubt Freeney comes back. Tom Condon (an agent that has not suited well with the Colts in the past) is his agent which means unlike the last big contract, he will be over-paid where he goes which will likely be another team for 3-4 years with Miami, Tennessee, and Jacksonville as the front runners. Plus keeping Freeney since he will likely want a long term high priced deal and clearly does not fit a 3-4 defense next season would be the biggest mistake the Colts could ever make.

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Once again no sources stating the Colts have more dead cap money for the guys they released next season or that Bethea, Mathis, and Wayne are owed ungodly amounts of money. And my math is certainly not off 15+2+10+36+19 does equal 82 million. Seriously I don't know where or how your getting the Colts being 45 million under the cap, that number can't be right and people are prolly only saying it because no other NFL team is over 45 million under the current salary cap.

Ted....

First, you haven't even explained what all of those numbers are. Some, yes, but not all. I have no idea what the 36 is and that's the largest number. Explain every number and we can start a conversation, otherwise... what's the point...

Second, Luck's 15 Mill is prorated over 4-years, it's not money that's available to be spent next year... so, I'm confident you don't know how this system works. I may not either, but I know enough to see the mistakes I think you're making.

Your numbers are wrong. Not by a little, not by a mile, but by light years.

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PAGING Ted Kissel... Paging Ted... will Ted Kissel please pick-up the White Courtesy phone......

Please look at the post above mine... the one from the poster named Shevz... I tried to find this one over the weekend but couldn't. This has been posted here several times.

Here it is again....

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/37621/a-look-ahead-at-2013-cap-situations

OK.... now, I've borrowed the link that Shevz found... props to him for finding it.... I've now linked it for Ted....

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Ted....

First, you haven't even explained what all of those numbers are. Some, yes, but not all. I have no idea what the 36 is and that's the largest number. Explain every number and we can start a conversation, otherwise... what's the point...

Second, Luck's 15 Mill is prorated over 4-years, it's not money that's available to be spent next year... so, I'm confident you don't know how this system works. I may not either, but I know enough to see the mistakes I think you're making.

Your numbers are wrong. Not by a little, not by a mile, but by light years.

1.I dunno where your getting that thing about Luck's 15 mill being spent over a few years, if you look at the Colts cap numbers their middle of the pack in terms of NFL payroll and don't have allot of high priced guys outside of Freeney. Plus Manning's 28 million was a signing bonus tacked onto his yearly salary of 23 million in one year. So personally I don't see how Signing bonuses come with in a few years. But either way I guess we can subtract the 15 mill signing bonus (even with it Luck's contract numbers are about the same as they are now).

2.The 36 million is dead cap from the guys the Colts released last season and Kelvin Hayden. Well actually that number was 38 million. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/10/colts-moves-result-in-38-million-of-dead-money/

3.Mathis, Wayne, and Redding next season will be owed about 6 mill total, but the contracts of Powers, Collie, Johnson, and Justice add up to 6.5 mill.

http://www.indystar.com/interactive/article/99999999/SPORTS03/120109037/Indianapolis-Colts-2012-player-contracts-salary-cap-info

Also notice this site does not include any signing bonuses

So without Luck's signing bonus and the team 9.5 million under the cap that puts the Colts at 67 million under the cap (82 million with Luck's signing bonus being paid this season). And that's not counting the expiring contracts like Donnie Avery under a million. I think that's a pretty accurate number. And btw according to Mike Chappell Vinatieri will not be cut next season which makes since considering the fact that his dead cap number is high and he's entering a contract year.

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the day after the trade deadline we have $5 million in cap space which how the new CBA allows us to rollover unused cap space into next season(per John Clayton). we have like $40 million already plus the $5 million thats going to rollover into next season that gives us around $45 million in cap space for the offseason.

Phil Richards@PhilRichards6

Per ProFootballTalk, the #Colts currently have $5 million in cap space. That's dead in the middle of the league, 16th.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/38458/adjusting-salary-cap-for-rollover-totals

"One of the new parts of the NFL collective bargaining agreement is the ability of teams to roll over remaining cap room into the next season. The 2011 season finished with $320 million of remaining cap room. Thirty teams carried over $301.78 million of unused cap money to give the 32 teams approximately $711 million of combined room as they start to prepare for the 2012 season."-Clayton

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1.I dunno where your getting that thing about Luck's 15 mill being spent over a few years, if you look at the Colts cap numbers their middle of the pack in terms of NFL payroll and don't have allot of high priced guys outside of Freeney. Plus Manning's 28 million was a signing bonus tacked onto his yearly salary of 23 million in one year. So personally I don't see how Signing bonuses come with in a few years. But either way I guess we can subtract the 15 mill signing bonus (even with it Luck's contract numbers are about the same as they are now).

He's getting it from the fact that that's the way NFL contracts are structured. The signing bonus cash is paid up front, but the full amount does not count against the salary cap in one year. The bonus is spread and paid equally over the entire course of the contract.

2.The 36 million is dead cap from the guys the Colts released last season and Kelvin Hayden. Well actually that number was 38 million. http://profootballta...-of-dead-money/

Where do you think this "dead money" came from? This dead money is the remaining portions of the signing bonuses paid to the players that were released. When a player is released, the team does not have to pay the salary for that player for the remaining years of the contract, but they do have to pay for the remaining signing bonus money that has already been paid and would otherwise have been spread evenly over the entire length of the contract.

FJC is far better at this kind of thing than I am but that is a basic, general explanation. So to summarize, in regards to Luck's signing bonus, he received all of the money up front, but the Colts organization was not charged the full amount towards the salary cap all at once.

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the day after the trade deadline we have $5 million in cap space which how the new CBA allows us to rollover unused cap space into next season(per John Clayton). we have like $40 million already plus the $5 million thats going to rollover into next season that gives us around $45 million in cap space for the offseason.

Phil Richards@PhilRichards6

Per ProFootballTalk, the #Colts currently have $5 million in cap space. That's dead in the middle of the league, 16th.

http://espn.go.com/b...rollover-totals

"One of the new parts of the NFL collective bargaining agreement is the ability of teams to roll over remaining cap room into the next season. The 2011 season finished with $320 million of remaining cap room. Thirty teams carried over $301.78 million of unused cap money to give the 32 teams approximately $711 million of combined room as they start to prepare for the 2012 season."-Clayton

OK so doing the math that accounts to 62 million based on my sources.

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the day after the trade deadline we have $5 million in cap space which how the new CBA allows us to rollover unused cap space into next season(per John Clayton). we have like $40 million already plus the $5 million thats going to rollover into next season that gives us around $45 million in cap space for the offseason.

Phil Richards@PhilRichards6

Per ProFootballTalk, the #Colts currently have $5 million in cap space. That's dead in the middle of the league, 16th.

http://espn.go.com/b...rollover-totals

"One of the new parts of the NFL collective bargaining agreement is the ability of teams to roll over remaining cap room into the next season. The 2011 season finished with $320 million of remaining cap room. Thirty teams carried over $301.78 million of unused cap money to give the 32 teams approximately $711 million of combined room as they start to prepare for the 2012 season."-Clayton

Oh yeah btw, we already have 40 mil OK, that's prolly mostly dead cap money from the guys we released add the expiring contracts of Powers, Johnson, add Freeney's 19 million (something that would not be there if the team didn't have the money to pay off their dead cap), and subtract roughly the 6 million extra owed to Wayne and Mathis and you get 62 million.

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