NT Looking Thin! What could our options be?

[coltsfanatic24]

were just gonna have to stick to what we have until the draft. star the nt from utah is considered by many scouts the next ngata.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

The base, 3-4 or 4-3 does not matter to me, that is just a technicality.

No. That is not a mere technicality.

[Gavin]

I got a question for ya all complaining about Mookie. How is Mookie responsible for a play that was bounced outside for a 24 yard gain? (Like I said the longest run of the day for the Skins)

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I assumed people understood this instinctively but maybe not:

The 4/3 we are used to is gone. And the only reason we are using the term hybrid is because we will not have the personnel YET to play a consistent 3/4. But make no mistake, the vision going forward is 3/4.

So that being reality, we have a year of transition in store. We've lost McKinney and that is a serious blow to our 3/4 plans. Especially considering Chapman is not going to be ready for awhile.

Therefore A LOT hinges on waiver wire acquisitions or a Grigson trade. If we cannot get a TRUE 3/4 NT in here, we may well end up seeing more 4/3 than was originally planned or desired.

We'll see.

[chad72]

I assumed people understood this instinctively but maybe not:

The 4/3 we are used to is gone. And the only reason we are using the term hybrid is because we will not have the personnel YET to play a consistent 3/4. But make no mistake, the vision going forward is 3/4.

So that being reality, we have a year of transition in store. We've lost McKinney and that is a serious blow to our 3/4 plans. Especially considering Chapman is not going to be ready for awhile.

Therefore A LOT hinges on waiver wire acquisitions or a Grigson trade. If we cannot get a TRUE 3/4 NT in here, we may well end up seeing more 4/3 than was originally planned or desired.

We'll see.

I agree on the bolded part.

If we call the Ravens a pure 3-4, then yes, our vision going forward is 3-4. Otherwise, "hybrid" is used because we do not favor one formation heavily over the other, not because we dont have the personnel to play a consistent 3-4 primarily.

[Gavin]

We need help and defensive end, thats what we need, particularly Ricardo Matthews side

[chad72]

In fact having a hybrid DL like Ngata makes the "hybrid" tick and helps the "hybrid" stay, not be phased out to a pure 3-4.

Here is a good read: http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2010/4/9/1412079/football-101-the-ravens-hybrid

[Superman]

I assumed people understood this instinctively but maybe not:

The 4/3 we are used to is gone. And the only reason we are using the term hybrid is because we will not have the personnel YET to play a consistent 3/4. But make no mistake, the vision going forward is 3/4.

So that being reality, we have a year of transition in store. We've lost McKinney and that is a serious blow to our 3/4 plans. Especially considering Chapman is not going to be ready for awhile.

Therefore A LOT hinges on waiver wire acquisitions or a Grigson trade. If we cannot get a TRUE 3/4 NT in here, we may well end up seeing more 4/3 than was originally planned or desired.

We'll see.

I disagree with this. We absolutely need help at nose tackle, but the reason the defense is a hybrid is because it uses multiple fronts, not because it's in transition. The Ravens have more than enough pieces to play a straight 3-4, much like the Steelers do, or the Cowboys do. They play a hybrid because it allows them greater versatility, and it allows them to play to their players' strengths. Not because they have to.

And there are other teams that have been adding these wrinkles to their defense over the past couple of years. When Wade Phillips went to Houston, he installed his 3-4 stuff with the well-known 1-gap principles, but the Texans used multiple looks, including tons of four-down alignments. And not just to take advantage of Mario Williams; they continued to use those looks after Williams got hurt, and will continue to do so moving forward even though he's not there. We don't call their defense a hybrid, but it is. Pagano's defense is moreso. It's not a function of necessity; it's a function of versatility.

I do agree that we might wind up using more four-down alignments than we intended, not only because of the lack of a true nose tackle, but also because our ends, particularly Freeney, are better at end than they are at OLB. But I anticipate that we will always be a hybrid defense, so long as Pagano is in charge, because of the reasons mentioned above: it allows us greater flexibility, and it allows us to get more out of our players. Another reason is that it opens our draft board up to tweener linemen/backers that a traditional 4-3 team might shy away from, even though that kind of player (Courtney Upshaw, for instance, or even Jerry Hughes) is often one of the most athletic guys available in the draft.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

. We're NOWHERE near having the defensive talent that the Ravens have. NOWHERE near it. And it is their talent that allows them to do what they do. Not a scheme/template placed over players.

I guess I could give ground and say "hybrid" as a strategy is a larger part of the vision...but, without the 3/4 NT it will all be for nothing. Regardless, the 4/3 defense we are used to is gone. And the 3/4 will be our base.

[chad72]

. We're NOWHERE near having the defensive talent that the Ravens have. NOWHERE near it. And it is their talent that allows them to do what they do. Not a scheme/template placed over players.

I guess I could give ground and say "hybrid" as a strategy is a larger part of the vision...but, without the 3/4 NT it will all be for nothing. Regardless, the 4/3 defense we are used to is gone. And the 3/4 will be our base.

Maybe I was not as eloquent enough as Superman, he said it better in the post above.

No, we are not anywhere close to the Ravens, that goes without saying but the "hybrid" as a strategy is a larger part of the vision, not a pure 3-4.

For those who hate the 4-3 (either because you were tired of it, or because you hated how it was used and deployed, or you hated the predictability of play calling or you think the 3-4 is the greatest thing since sliced bread), just something to point out, the SB champs in 2006, 2007, 2009, and 2011 all played a 4-3 base. That is 4 out of the last 6 champs. Just thought I'd point it out.

No matter what scheme you have as the base, if you dont have the players for it, and cant execute, the results will speak for themselves in a negative way.

[Superman]

. We're NOWHERE near having the defensive talent that the Ravens have. NOWHERE near it. And it is their talent that allows them to do what they do. Not a scheme/template placed over players.

That's actually my point. They have the talent to do whatever they want, including a traditional 3-4. Instead, they run a hybrid defense, with multiple defensive fronts. They have a nose tackle, they have the outside backers, they have the corners, etc., everything necessary to run a 3-4. Instead, they run a hybrid. It's not an issue of having or not having a nose tackle.

I guess I could give ground and say "hybrid" as a strategy is a larger part of the vision...but, without the 3/4 NT it will all be for nothing. Regardless, the 4/3 defense we are used to is gone. And the 3/4 will be our base.

I agree that the defense we used before is gone, but we will use four-down alignments a significant amount of the time. I don't know how you determine what the so-called base defense is; is it the defense you use on the first play of the game, or is it the defense you use the majority of the time? Doesn't really matter to me. The defense is going to use a lot of different fronts. And even when it's a 4-3 front, it's not going to be a vanilla zone coverage 90% of the time like it used to be.

I also agree that we need to improve at nose tackle. But the other changes on defense, including the use of guys like Redding, Moala, etc., will help also. Moving our pass rushers around and getting them some favorable matchups, getting them away from double-teams, etc., will help.

We could go on all day about the wrinkles in this defense. I think I'm going to love it. All I'm saying is that the proper way to refer to it is a hybrid, not a 3-4, not a 4-3.

[ztboiler]

. We're NOWHERE near having the defensive talent that the Ravens have. NOWHERE near it. And it is their talent that allows them to do what they do. Not a scheme/template placed over players.

I guess I could give ground and say "hybrid" as a strategy is a larger part of the vision...but, without the 3/4 NT it will all be for nothing. Regardless, the 4/3 defense we are used to is gone. And the 3/4 will be our base.

I'd like to hear your description of what Pagano's (Raven's) hybrid actually is. Your interpretation of the defensive scheme seems to ignore what coach Pagano himself has described this defense as.

[Superman]

For those who hate the 4-3 (either because you were tired of it, or because you hated how it was used and deployed, or you hated the predictability of play calling or you think the 3-4 is the greatest thing since sliced bread), just something to point out, the SB champs in 2006, 2007, 2009, and 2011 all played a 4-3 base. That is 4 out of the last 6 champs. Just thought I'd point it out.

Very good point. A 4-3 defense doesn't have to be as unimaginative and passive as ours was. And as a matter of fact, there have been plenty of bad 3-4 defenses in recent years.

Another this is that the designation of a 4-3 is overused, as is the 3-4. With more passing in the league now, the use of the so-called base defense has subsided as more teams use nickel alignments, and there are a few dozen different nickel looks you can use. The Ravens used nickel alignments more than 50% of the time last year, so isn't that their base defense?

[GoColts8818]

I assumed people understood this instinctively but maybe not:

The 4/3 we are used to is gone. And the only reason we are using the term hybrid is because we will not have the personnel YET to play a consistent 3/4. But make no mistake, the vision going forward is 3/4.

So that being reality, we have a year of transition in store. We've lost McKinney and that is a serious blow to our 3/4 plans. Especially considering Chapman is not going to be ready for awhile.

Therefore A LOT hinges on waiver wire acquisitions or a Grigson trade. If we cannot get a TRUE 3/4 NT in here, we may well end up seeing more 4/3 than was originally planned or desired.

We'll see.

That and it's what Pagano used in Baltimore and has said he wants to use the Hybrid here...

I agree though we do not have a true starting 3/4 NT on this roster and we are unlikely to get one in cut downs. I think we can get a guy who can be a second ter guy which you need in a 3/4 but we don't really have a starter and even with McKinney I didn't think that. I though McKinney is a nice guy to come in when the starter gets tired which again happens in a 3/4 but I think that a starting NT for a 3/4 and O-linemen will be at the top of the shopping list next year in free agency.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

It's not an issue of having or not having a nose tackle.

Simply wrong.

I agree that the defense we used before is gone, but we will use four-down alignments a significant amount of the time.

Predominently because we don't have 3/4 talent yet.

All I'm saying is that the proper way to refer to it is a hybrid, not a 3-4, not a 4-3.

Ehhh, we're parsing now but it matters. I think the intent is a base 3/4 that CAN be hybrid.

We'll see.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Very good point. A 4-3 defense doesn't have to be as unimaginative and passive as ours was. And as a matter of fact, there have been plenty of bad 3-4 defenses in recent years. Another this is that the designation of a 4-3 is overused, as is the 3-4. With more passing in the league now, the use of the so-called base defense has subsided as more teams use nickel alignments, and there are a few dozen different nickel looks you can use. The Ravens used nickel alignments more than 50% of the time last year, so isn't that their base defense?

At the end of the day, people trumps plan. The talent on the field is what matters. We played the 4/3 with subpar talent in 7 of 11 positions. The personnel was the problem...not the 4/3.

[Superman]

Simply wrong.

How so???

The Ravens have a nose tackle, don't they? Matter of fact, they have two really good ones in Ngata and Cody, and they had a third that we got in free agency, McKinney. Yet they still ran a hybrid defense that used a significant amount of four man fronts. They were a hybrid by choice, not necessity. How is the hybrid designation an issue of having a nose tackle or not?

Ehhh, we're parsing now but it matters. I think the intent is a base 3/4 that CAN be hybrid.

We'll see.

Sure, we're parsing, but the point is that it's not just a 3-4 defense that will occasionally use four man fronts. We'll frequently use four man fronts, just as the Ravens did last season.

And again, calling it a base 3-4 isn't really accurate either. We should acknowledge that the majority of the time last season, the Ravens were NOT in a 3-4. They were in nickel over 50% of the time. That nickel takes a ton of different forms, and it includes 1, 2, 3 and 4 man fronts. But if you're in nickel, you don't have four linebackers on the field, which is the "4" in 3-4.

[Balzer40]

I think what is being said here(at least in my opinion) is that we are not going to see Mookie at NT, Nevis at UT, Mathis LDE, and Freeney RDE with 3 lbers behind them. Instead we'll see Mookie NT, Nevis DE, Moala DE, and either Mathis or Freeney or both(5 man front) standing up or with their hand on the ground rushing the edge/s. IMO that is still a 3-4 base in a hybrid scheme. Is it nitpicking? Probably, but thats the way I see it.

[Superman]

I think what is being said here(at least in my opinion) is that we are not going to see Mookie at NT, Nevis at UT, Mathis LDE, and Freeney RDE. Instead we'll see Mookie NT, Nevis DE, Moala DE, and either Mathis or Freeney or both(5 man front) standing up or with their hand on the ground rushing the edge/s. IMO that is still a 3-4 base in a hybrid scheme. Is it nitpicking? Probably, but thats the way I see it.

That's the thing: I'm certain that we WILL see that four man alignment you described. We won't see it as often as we would have under our previous defense, but we will still use that alignment, or one similar to it. We'll still give Freeney and Mathis tandem reps at end, because that's a dang good pass rush option in passing situations.

We'll also see the five man alignment you described, perhaps more.

I'm nitpicking when I say that the five man alignment isn't necessarily a 3-4, because outside of Freeney and Mathis, we might not use another linebacker, or two, meaning it's not a 3-4, but a nickel (maybe a 3-3-5, maybe a 2-4-5, maybe a 1-5-5, etc.). That's definitely nitpicking. But it's important, in my mind, because I think -- based on Pagano's year in Baltimore as coordinator -- that we'll be using those nickel alignments in their various forms more often than we use the so-called base 3-4 alignment.

Perhaps the best way to describe the hybrid defense is by saying that there is no base alignment, because it uses so many alignments that no one alignment becomes dominant. We'll probably use a three-down alignment more often than a four-down alignment, but that doesn't mean we'll have four linebackers on the field, which means it's not a 3-4. Again, nitpicking. But I think it's an important designation.

[Superman]

At the end of the day, people trumps plan. The talent on the field is what matters. We played the 4/3 with subpar talent in 7 of 11 positions. The personnel was the problem...not the 4/3.

Absolutely. Call the Ravens whatever you want, as long as you acknowledge that they're one of the very best defenses in the NFL every year.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

How so???

The Ravens have a nose tackle, don't they? Matter of fact, they have two really good ones in Ngata and Cody, and they had a third that we got in free agency, McKinney. Yet they still ran a hybrid defense that used a significant amount of four man fronts. They were a hybrid by choice, not necessity. How is the hybrid designation an issue of having a nose tackle or not?

Sure, we're parsing, but the point is that it's not just a 3-4 defense that will occasionally use four man fronts. We'll frequently use four man fronts, just as the Ravens did last season.

And again, calling it a base 3-4 isn't really accurate either. We should acknowledge that the majority of the time last season, the Ravens were NOT in a 3-4. They were in nickel over 50% of the time. That nickel takes a ton of different forms, and it includes 1, 2, 3 and 4 man fronts. But if you're in nickel, you don't have four linebackers on the field, which is the "4" in 3-4.

We just simply disagree about what the Ravens D actually is. And as a result, what the Colts defense is intended to be.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Absolutely. Call the Ravens whatever you want, as long as you acknowledge that they're one of the very best defenses in the NFL every year.

Because their talent in unrivalled. Whereas ours rivals very few.

Bad way to be when neither fish nor foul (3/4 nor 4/3).

[Superman]

We just simply disagree about what the Ravens D actually is. And as a result, what the Colts defense is intended to be.

I guess so. I've spent a considerable amount of time watching the Ravens defense, and I can say with certainty that the "hybrid" label fits. And that's not because they don't have a nose tackle, it's because they want versatility. That leads me to believe that, even if we have a really good nose tackle eventually, we'll still use multiple defensive fronts, just like the Ravens do.

[Superman]

Because their talent in unrivalled. Whereas ours rivals very few.

Bad way to be when neither fish nor foul (3/4 nor 4/3).

We agree on one very fundamental thing: we need a nose tackle.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

We agree on one very fundamental thing: we need a nose tackle.

Amen!

[CS Colts Fan]

Gavin... you my friend are Spot ON !!

[coltsfanatic24]

what about trading freeney to the ravens for mount cody. cody is 6'4 350lbs and plays alongside ngata but comes out on 3rd downs for mcphee. ravens could use freeney with the injury of suggs.