Best WR of all time?

[ViriLudant]

Randall Cunningham and Dante Culpepper were not garbage..

They weren't anything special, either. If you look at the stats of non-Randy-Moss players, they're really average to below average. Moss's skills allowed him to elevate and get balls that were often thrown high.

Never mind the fact that Moss had his 2nd best season for yards and best season for TDs in his 10th season; if he had played with a HOF QB like Harrison his entire career, his stats would be mind-blowing.

[oldunclemark]

Who do you guys believe is the best of all time at WR? My buddy and I have been debating for a while on this. I say Marvin Harrison but he is a total 49er homer and says Jerry Rice. Harrison is imo the most dominant to play. A lot of amazing WRs have played tho

Greatest takes you to the definition of the word....what do you mean by great?

But 'best'///a universally clear and precise term?

Cris Carter

No question. Best hands ever. Made one-handed catches regularly....

13,000 yards, 130 TDs....

Bigger and faster than Rice, Swann or Harrison...or the old-schoolers like Lance Alworth, Fred Biletnikoff and Don Hutson

Better hands than Randy Moss, James Lofton...and Terrell Owens....

If you ever get to see old NFL films...the highlight reel speaks for itself and he played 16 years...

'Greates' requires longevity and you're not going to beat Jerry Rice on that..

But Cris Carter is the best....I ever saw

[BOTT]

Actually you are debating it right now, thus there is a debate.. Some stats are very important, Say for example, yards per catch, and yards per game... Their numbers are very close in those two categories

evidently you didn't read my posts, i am arguing who the better player is. and who said stats weren't important?

[BOTT]

Greatest takes you to the definition of the word....what do you mean by great?

But 'best'///a universally clear and precise term?

Cris Carter

No question. Best hands ever. Made one-handed catches regularly....

13,000 yards, 130 TDs....

Bigger and faster than Rice, Swann or Harrison...or the old-schoolers like Lance Alworth, Fred Biletnikoff and Don Hutson

Better hands than Randy Moss, James Lofton...and Terrell Owens....

If you ever get to see old NFL films...the highlight reel speaks for itself and he played 16 years...

'Greates' requires longevity and you're not going to beat Jerry Rice on that..

But Cris Carter is the best....I ever saw

chris carter was not faster than rice and harrison. sure he had great hands, but any better than moss or rice..no

[asucolt606]

I think its time we take our blinders off and admit M.H. wasnt this spectacular wide reciever but more a reliable wide reciever who was able to be great because of Peyton. I would rate him along the lines of Craig Jennings of the Packers.

[southwest1]

Jerry Rice was the most productive WR of all time, in my opinion. Did it help that he played with two HOFers? Yes, but the same could be said of Marvin Harrison.

The most talented of all time would be Randy Moss; if he could have stayed focus throughout his career, he would have been the best.

VL,

I agree completely with you on both counts. I would only add that Minnesota Vikings WR Cris Carter deserves at least an honorable mention for molding Randy Moss into a polished and professional WR in the NFL especially during Moss's rookie year. Yes, Randy had off the charts athletic jumping, catching, and hand/eye coordination ability, but Carter gave Moss the initial structure, discipline, and mentor he needed at the beginning of his career. That fact cannot be glossed over, neglected, or underestimated IMO. Man, I still wish Randy was still in Foxboro. He had tremendous speed, great hands, and was so darn smart. Wow!!!

[oldunclemark]

chris carter was not faster than rice and harrison. sure he had great hands, but any better than moss or rice..no

I never thought of Randy Moss as having great hands compared to other top guys...

Cris Carter was faster than Marvin harrison...my man..and he ran great routes

Jerry Rice is the greatest.......he produced for 2 decades.....his records probably wont be broken in our lifetime..

but 'best I ever saw'....

You've got to go look at some old Viking highlights of Cris Carter...

Dont believe me..believe your eyes..

[NewColtsFan]

Greatest takes you to the definition of the word....what do you mean by great?

But 'best'///a universally clear and precise term?

Cris Carter

No question. Best hands ever. Made one-handed catches regularly....

13,000 yards, 130 TDs....

Bigger and faster than Rice, Swann or Harrison...or the old-schoolers like Lance Alworth, Fred Biletnikoff and Don Hutson

Better hands than Randy Moss, James Lofton...and Terrell Owens....

If you ever get to see old NFL films...the highlight reel speaks for itself and he played 16 years...

'Greates' requires longevity and you're not going to beat Jerry Rice on that..

But Cris Carter is the best....I ever saw

For you, my friend. A gift from me to you.

Just went to YouTube.... found this. NFL Network lists Cris Carter has having the best hands -- EVER!

#1 on their list. Here's a fantastic feature on just how good his hands were. Notice the incredible number of one handed catches he made. It's flat-out SICK!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RASB4uIMzQc

It's amazing what you can find on YouTube!

[JimJaime]

I never thought of Randy Moss as having great hands compared to other top guys...

Cris Carter was faster than Marvin harrison...my man..and he ran great routes

Jerry Rice is the greatest.......he produced for 2 decades.....his records probably wont be broken in our lifetime..

but 'best I ever saw'....

You've got to go look at some old Viking highlights of Cris Carter...

Dont believe me..believe your eyes..

Moss had/has sick hands he when MOTIVATED can catch ANYTHING thrown near him. His problem is he is rarely motivated for a hole season.

[oldunclemark]

For you, my friend. A gift from me to you.

Just went to YouTube.... found this. NFL Network lists Cris Carter has having the best hands -- EVER!

#1 on their list. Here's a fantastic feature on just how good his hands were. Notice the incredible number of one handed catches he made. It's flat-out SICK!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RASB4uIMzQc

It's amazing what you can find on YouTube!

awesome, NCF...this is what Im talking about....

I didnt know he practiced one-hand catches...

I had never seen this..

i owe you one!!

[Gavin]

I will take a young Jerry Rice over any other wide receiver that has been mentioned, he has had nore 1000 yard seasons over a 13 year time span then, Cris Carter. Moss, Owens. I picked 13 years because all of those wide receivers have played at least 13 seasons but Randy Moss to this day has not played more (Even though he is about to), If I remember right Carter had 6, Rice had 14, Moss has had 10 to this point, Owens 9, Now before anyone says the quality of Quarterbacks have been less for a couple of the wide receivers then others to that I would say, they have all had an average or below average quarterback throwing to them at one point in there career, Moss in Oakland, Rice in Oakland

[John Waylon]

Difficult question. Of course the first two names that come to mind are Carter and Rice, and understandably so. I don't want to sound like a homer here, but I think there are really only 3 names you can throw out for it, and the only name missing is Marvin Harrison.

I tend to shy away from Rice. Sure, what he did was nothing short of amazing, but being quite honest, he played in a time when the corner position opposite him wasn't near the athletic position it has become. Carter got some of that, as well.

Athletically speaking, I think Harrison is the best of the 3, and I think he was the smartest of the 3. He knew how to beat his man, even if just by a fraction. He just knew. There were few times when a guy just % Marvin down. If you beat him on one play, you better be ready because he was coming back stronger just as soon as he could.

I think, for my money, I'm going with Marvin, and put Carter in at second. I think in today's NFL, Carter wouldn't be able to match the production he did during his career. Not saying he would fall off totally, but I think it would be a noticeable drop. Same for Rice. Still great numbers, and most likely better than a lot of #1s on half of the teams in the league, but not what they put up in their respective careers.

I think a Marvin in his prime with an offense that had to really rely on him could really put the numbers up.

[Superman]

awesome, NCF...this is what Im talking about....

I didnt know he practiced one-hand catches...

I had never seen this..

i owe you one!!

He and Randy Moss (and Jake Reed) used to spend time in every practice working on one-handed catches.

[John Waylon]

I should interject, though, I think Calvin Johnson is on the brink of throwing his name into this ring as well. We'll see what he does in the next 2-3 years, but he could certainly join the conversation.

[IndyTrav]

Carter may have had the hands, but I just cannot put him anywhere near the GOAT at his position. In 15 years he only led his team 6x in rec yards, and had 1 season at or over 1300.

[southwest1]

For you, my friend. A gift from me to you.

Just went to YouTube.... found this. NFL Network lists Cris Carter has having the best hands -- EVER!

#1 on their list. Here's a fantastic feature on just how good his hands were. Notice the incredible number of one handed catches he made. It's flat-out SICK!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RASB4uIMzQc

It's amazing what you can find on YouTube!

Your You Tube video of Cris Carter makes an excellent point NewColtsFan. Carter had great body control and on the field awareness. Please put him in the NFL HOF after this season's SuperBowl along with Charles Haley. Enough is enough already IMO.

[RGIII]

I tend to shy away from Rice. Sure, what he did was nothing short of amazing, but being quite honest, he played in a time when the corner position opposite him wasn't near the athletic position it has become. Carter got some of that, as well.

What? Many of the consensus all-time great CBs and all-time great athletes at the position were from Rice's era. If anything, it should have been harder for Rice at the beginning of his career because more physical play was allowed then than is allowed now.

Marvin was a great receiver but it is crazy to say that he was better than Rice over the course of their respective careers.

[asucolt606]

Good god, anyone who can even put Marvin in a top 3 is completely dellusional. Notice how even at washed up points TO and Moss still get calls, Marvin once released by the Colts just disapeared. Marvin was good dont get me wrong, but no where near great.

[ViriLudant]

Difficult question. Of course the first two names that come to mind are Carter and Rice, and understandably so. I don't want to sound like a homer here, but I think there are really only 3 names you can throw out for it, and the only name missing is Marvin Harrison.

I tend to shy away from Rice. Sure, what he did was nothing short of amazing, but being quite honest, he played in a time when the corner position opposite him wasn't near the athletic position it has become. Carter got some of that, as well.

Athletically speaking, I think Harrison is the best of the 3, and I think he was the smartest of the 3. He knew how to beat his man, even if just by a fraction. He just knew. There were few times when a guy just % Marvin down. If you beat him on one play, you better be ready because he was coming back stronger just as soon as he could.

I think, for my money, I'm going with Marvin, and put Carter in at second. I think in today's NFL, Carter wouldn't be able to match the production he did during his career. Not saying he would fall off totally, but I think it would be a noticeable drop. Same for Rice. Still great numbers, and most likely better than a lot of #1s on half of the teams in the league, but not what they put up in their respective careers.

I think a Marvin in his prime with an offense that had to really rely on him could really put the numbers up.

Harrison's nowhere near the top. Top 10, yes. Number 1? No way.

Harrison benefited, post 2003, from Polian's pushing for the non-contact rules for WRs.

Rice, however, played during a time when CBs were allowed to mug WRs, and yet he still put up the best numbers of all time.

[IndyTrav]

Rice, however, played during a time when CBs were allowed to mug WRs, and yet he still put up the best numbers of all time.

A common theme I've noticed regarding recent WR, is people continuing to mention the contact allowed or lack thereof in recent years. As you said Marvin benefitted from that. So have players like Steve Smith. However I do believe there are certain players when that really wouldn't matter. People like Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall. I'd have loved to see DBs try and get physical who those players. Marvin would have been tossed to the ground. But Calvin? Not so much. I think I could even make the argument that Calvin's stats would be EVEN better had these rules still be in effect.

[pacolts56]

A common theme I've noticed regarding recent WR, is people continuing to mention the contact allowed or lack thereof in recent years. As you said Marvin benefitted from that. So have players like Steve Smith. However I do believe there are certain players when that really wouldn't matter. People like Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall. I'd have loved to see DBs try and get physical who those players. Marvin would have been tossed to the ground. But Calvin? Not so much. I think I could even make the argument that Calvin's stats would be EVEN better had these rules still be in effect.

That's a problem though IndyTrav because the overwhelming opinion offered by NFL CBs....not Colts Forum homers....was that they had absolutely no clue where Marvin was going to cut on his routes, let alone "get physical" with him, and had to fear his deep speed as well. And indeed, he successfully killed them on short, medium and long routes. He was widely regarded by them as the toughest WR of his time to cover.

Now....IMO Jerry Rice's production was SO mind-boggling I can't place anyone else at #1. The rest of the Top 5 can be debated, including Don Hutson in his era.

But based upon every description I've ever heard of Marvin by the very CBs who had the unenviable task of covering him....and in an era of superior athletes at CB and with WRs Moss and Owens at the top of their games...I have to rank him in the Top 5.

The stats on these 5-6 guys after Jerry Rice are pretty much a hair-splitter...but for pure WR route technique + hands + speed AND career production....I just don't know how we can leave Marvin Harrison out of the Top 5.

[IndyTrav]

That's a problem though IndyTrav because the overwhelming opinion offered by NFL CBs....not Colts Forum homers....was that they had absolutely no clue where Marvin was going to cut on his routes, let alone "get physical" with him, and had to fear his deep speed as well. And indeed, he successfully killed them on short, medium and long routes. He was widely regarded by them as the toughest WR of his time to cover.

Now....IMO Jerry Rice's production was SO mind-boggling I can't place anyone else at #1. The rest of the Top 5 can be debated, including Don Hutson in his era.

But based upon every description I've ever heard of Marvin by the very CBs who had the unenviable task of covering him....and in an era of superior athletes at CB and with WRs Moss and Owens at the top of their games...I have to rank him in the Top 5.

The stats on these 5-6 guys after Jerry Rice are pretty much a hair-splitter...but for pure WR route technique + hands + speed AND career production....I just don't know how we can leave Marvin Harrison out of the Top 5.

Look no further than the early Pats/Colts Playoff games of evidence of what would happen if Marvin had to play physical CBs. Those were the games that led to Polian requesting the rule changes.

There is no doubt Marv ran great routes and had excellent cuts, but coming off the line, he was man handled time and again.

Now as for placing him in Top 5, I'm not sure if I could do that. I may, I'd have to really think about it.

And although they have yet to even remotely put up the raw #s Marvin did, I'd be extremely hard pressed if asked "Whom would you rather have" in regards to a player like Fitzgerald/Calvin Johnson picking Marvin above those 2.

And another point on Marvin. If you select him as being top 5, would you also select Torry Holt in that top 5? They both had 8 great years in there careers. Would you be suprised to hear in those 8 years Marvin only had 73 more Rec, and 143 more yds? Now Marvin did trump him in TDs, by 35, but in Holts defense, he didn't have Peyton Manning.

So, is Holt top 5? Top 10?

[JimJaime]

That's a problem though IndyTrav because the overwhelming opinion offered by NFL CBs....not Colts Forum homers....was that they had absolutely no clue where Marvin was going to cut on his routes, let alone "get physical" with him, and had to fear his deep speed as well. And indeed, he successfully killed them on short, medium and long routes. He was widely regarded by them as the toughest WR of his time to cover.

LOL you forget how AWFUL he was with a physical corner on him named TY LAW? he was gawd awful when he faced Law because Law always chucked him at the line (which is still legal). So he been destroyed if a CB was able do that ALL THE WAY DOWN THE FIELD.

[JoKeR]

Is this thread serial? Come on, Jerry Rice is considered by many to be the best player of all time, not just the best WR.

[Superman]

LOL you forget how AWFUL he was with a physical corner on him named TY LAW? he was gawd awful when he faced Law because Law always chucked him at the line (which is still legal). So he been destroyed if a CB was able do that ALL THE WAY DOWN THE FIELD.

Marvin had some of his worst games against Ty Law, but he also gave him a little bit of business from time to time. There was a game in 2000 where Marvin had 13 catches and a touchdown. Marvin also beat other physical corners throughout his career. Ty Law was just kind of the perfect matchup, and it's no surprise, as he's one of the best corners of his generation. You could also ask whether he had a read on Manning as much or more than it was on Marvin.

Lastly, the point of contention after the 2003 AFCCG is that Law and the other Patriots defensive backs were in fact pushing, grabbing and holding Marvin and the other receivers all the way down the field. That contact has always been legal in the first five yards, and still is. The rule wasn't changed after that game; the NFL made it a point of emphasis because it wasn't being called consistently, and that game was a chief example. And by then, Marvin was 31 years old and in his 8th year, and had already put up the kind of numbers Reggie Wayne has now, in 50 fewer games. Marvin earned his reputation as a great receiver against all kinds of defensive backs, mostly before the rules started to favor passing.

[JimJaime]

Marvin had some of his worst games against Ty Law, but he also gave him a little bit of business from time to time. There was a game in 2000 where Marvin had 13 catches and a touchdown. Marvin also beat other physical corners throughout his career. Ty Law was just kind of the perfect matchup, and it's no surprise, as he's one of the best corners of his generation. You could also ask whether he had a read on Manning as much or more than it was on Marvin.

Lastly, the point of contention after the 2003 AFCCG is that Law and the other Patriots defensive backs were in fact pushing, grabbing and holding Marvin and the other receivers all the way down the field. That contact has always been legal in the first five yards, and still is. The rule wasn't changed after that game; the NFL made it a point of emphasis because it wasn't being called consistently, and that game was a chief example. And by then, Marvin was 31 years old and in his 8th year, and had already put up the kind of numbers Reggie Wayne has now, in 50 fewer games. Marvin earned his reputation as a great receiver against all kinds of defensive backs, mostly before the rules started to favor passing.

Marvin was a great WR, IMO I just dont think he could handle a game where the CB had the ability to redirect him all the way down the field.

As for that rule, I HATE IT. It is to vague and the Offense get to many FREEBIES because of the refs throwing the yellow hanky. IMO if the feet get tangled up or if the wr stops and tries go THROUGH the CB for the ball it should be NO FOUL.. I see to many dumb yellow flags because of the emphasis on that rule. refs need use comman sense or the rule needs be tweaked considerably to eliminate grey areas.

[pacolts56]

LOL you forget how AWFUL he was with a physical corner on him named TY LAW? he was gawd awful when he faced Law because Law always chucked him at the line (which is still legal). So he been destroyed if a CB was able do that ALL THE WAY DOWN THE FIELD.

Awful? Let's look it up....

1996 - 2004 Marvin Harrison vs New England (Ty Law's NE years - including playoff games and BEFORE Polian's rule challenge)

Games 16

Receptions 86......2 receptions ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

Yards 1248......127 yards ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

TDs 10.....just ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

Those "awful" numbers are basically the equivalent of a Pro Bowl season. Your definition of awful is either wildly overstated or Ty Law took a LOT of plays off. I'll let you pick which one.

My hunch is that you're basically extrapolating 1 snowy playoff game, a great game by Law for sure, into an entire career....but the facts of Harrison's body of work simply don't support your comment.

[Fx Stryker]

The only reason Marvin won't make the HOF is because of the Philly incident. That is also why he was kept off of the top 100.

[JimJaime]

Awful? Let's look it up....

1996 - 2004 Marvin Harrison vs New England (Ty Law's NE years - including playoff games and BEFORE Polian's rule challenge)

Games 16

Receptions 86......2 receptions ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

Yards 1248......127 yards ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

TDs 10.....just ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

Those "awful" numbers are basically the equivalent of a Pro Bowl season. Your definition of awful is either wildly overstated or Ty Law took a LOT of plays off. I'll let you pick which one.

My hunch is that you're basically extrapolating 1 snowy playoff game, a great game by Law for sure, into an entire career....but the facts of Harrison's body of work simply don't support your comment.

Ahh a stats man... Now lets see the scores of thos games from that era hmmm:

1994 November 27 New England Patriots 12-10 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome December 11 New England Patriots 28-13 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium 1995 November 19 Indianapolis Colts 24-10 New England Patriots Foxboro Stadium December 23 Indianapolis Colts 10-7 New England Patriots RCA Dome 1996 October 20 New England Patriots 27-9 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome November 24 New England Patriots 27-13 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium 1997 September 7 New England Patriots 31-6 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome November 30 New England Patriots 20-17 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium 1998 September 13 New England Patriots 29-6 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium November 1 New England Patriots 21-16 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome 1999 September 19 New England Patriots 31-28 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium December 12 Indianapolis Colts 20-15 New England Patriots RCA Dome

[edit] 2000s (Patriots 8-6)

Year Date Winner Result Loser Location 2000 October 8 New England Patriots 24-16 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium October 22 Indianapolis Colts 30-23 New England Patriots RCA Dome 2001 September 30 New England Patriots 44-13 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium October 21 New England Patriots 38-17 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome 2003 November 30 New England Patriots 38-34 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome 2004 January 18 New England Patriots 24-14 Indianapolis Colts Gillette Stadium 2004 September 9 New England Patriots 27-24 Indianapolis Colts Gillette Stadium 2005 January 16 New England Patriots 20-3 Indianapolis Colts Gillette Stadium 2005 November 7 Indianapolis Colts 40-21 New England Patriots Gillette Stadium 2006 November 5 Indianapolis Colts 27-20 New England Patriots Gillette Stadium

So looking there hmm about 4 games with decent offensive numbers I wonder how many of his yards came in those FEW games. Unlike you I do not have the patience to check lol

[JimJaime]

The only reason Marvin won't make the HOF is because of the Philly incident. That is also why he was kept off of the top 100.

I always thought of Marvin be the Colts version of Troy Brown, one of the best WR in franchise history but not top in history. but again my opinion

[BOTT]

I never thought of Randy Moss as having great hands compared to other top guys...

Cris Carter was faster than Marvin harrison...my man..and he ran great routes

Jerry Rice is the greatest.......he produced for 2 decades.....his records probably wont be broken in our lifetime..

but 'best I ever saw'....

You've got to go look at some old Viking highlights of Cris Carter...

Dont believe me..believe your eyes..

i don't need to see old highlights as i saw him play many times. his hands, route running, and insane sideline catches are what i thing of WAY before his speed....saying he is faster than marvin is laughable

[Superman]

Awful? Let's look it up....

1996 - 2004 Marvin Harrison vs New England (Ty Law's NE years - including playoff games and BEFORE Polian's rule challenge)

Games 16

Receptions 86......2 receptions ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

Yards 1248......127 yards ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

TDs 10.....just ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

Those "awful" numbers are basically the equivalent of a Pro Bowl season. Your definition of awful is either wildly overstated or Ty Law took a LOT of plays off. I'll let you pick which one.

My hunch is that you're basically extrapolating 1 snowy playoff game, a great game by Law for sure, into an entire career....but the facts of Harrison's body of work simply don't support your comment.

Ahh a stats man... Now lets see the scores of thos games from that era hmmm:

1994 November 27 New England Patriots 12-10 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome December 11 New England Patriots 28-13 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium 1995 November 19 Indianapolis Colts 24-10 New England Patriots Foxboro Stadium December 23 Indianapolis Colts 10-7 New England Patriots RCA Dome 1996 October 20 New England Patriots 27-9 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome November 24 New England Patriots 27-13 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium 1997 September 7 New England Patriots 31-6 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome November 30 New England Patriots 20-17 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium 1998 September 13 New England Patriots 29-6 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium November 1 New England Patriots 21-16 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome 1999 September 19 New England Patriots 31-28 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium December 12 Indianapolis Colts 20-15 New England Patriots RCA Dome

[edit] 2000s (Patriots 8-6)

Year Date Winner Result Loser Location 2000 October 8 New England Patriots 24-16 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium October 22 Indianapolis Colts 30-23 New England Patriots RCA Dome 2001 September 30 New England Patriots 44-13 Indianapolis Colts Foxboro Stadium October 21 New England Patriots 38-17 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome 2003 November 30 New England Patriots 38-34 Indianapolis Colts RCA Dome 2004 January 18 New England Patriots 24-14 Indianapolis Colts Gillette Stadium 2004 September 9 New England Patriots 27-24 Indianapolis Colts Gillette Stadium 2005 January 16 New England Patriots 20-3 Indianapolis Colts Gillette Stadium 2005 November 7 Indianapolis Colts 40-21 New England Patriots Gillette Stadium 2006 November 5 Indianapolis Colts 27-20 New England Patriots Gillette Stadium

So looking there hmm about 4 games with decent offensive numbers I wonder how many of his yards came in those FEW games. Unlike you I do not have the patience to check lol

Ty Law didn't play in several of those games due to injury. There was one in 1999 and another in 2000 when Marvin went off, but Ty Law wasn't on the field for those games.

I don't agree with the idea that Marvin couldn't handle physical corners, but it's absolutely true that Ty Law had his number.

[Superman]

Marvin was a great WR, IMO I just dont think he could handle a game where the CB had the ability to redirect him all the way down the field.

But the change after 2003 took away the ability to redirect him all the way down the field. Before that, Marvin dealt with physical corner play all the time. The thing is that few corners were brave enough to try to jam him because he was too quick. Ty Law was really the only one with the guts to do it on a regular basis.

As for that rule, I HATE IT. It is to vague and the Offense get to many FREEBIES because of the refs throwing the yellow hanky. IMO if the feet get tangled up or if the wr stops and tries go THROUGH the CB for the ball it should be NO FOUL.. I see to many dumb yellow flags because of the emphasis on that rule. refs need use comman sense or the rule needs be tweaked considerably to eliminate grey areas.

You would. It's something Belichick and Crennel used as much as anyone else, and it helped your team win at least two Super Bowls.

As for the rule, there's nothing vague about it. As a matter of fact, by enforcing it as written, it removes any vagueness. The illegal contact rule allows a defender to jam a receiver, but after five yards, they have to let them run. It's very simple. All that you're talking about with tangled feet and receivers trying to run through defenders has nothing to do with the illegal contact rule. That's all pass interference, which is definitely more vague, as it's partially based on the official's judgment. It's a lot like a foul in basketball -- there will always be grey area. But you can't just let defenders do whatever they want to receivers.

[Gavin]

But the change after 2003 took away the ability to redirect him all the way down the field. Before that, Marvin dealt with physical corner play all the time. The thing is that few corners were brave enough to try to jam him because he was too quick. Ty Law was really the only one with the guts to do it on a regular basis.

You would. It's something Belichick and Crennel used as much as anyone else, and it helped your team win at least two Super Bowls.

As for the rule, there's nothing vague about it. As a matter of fact, by enforcing it as written, it removes any vagueness. The illegal contact rule allows a defender to jam a receiver, but after five yards, they have to let them run. It's very simple. All that you're talking about with tangled feet and receivers trying to run through defenders has nothing to do with the illegal contact rule. That's all pass interference, which is definitely more vague, as it's partially based on the official's judgment. It's a lot like a foul in basketball -- there will always be grey area. But you can't just let defenders do whatever they want to receivers.

Particularly a Charging foul

[ViriLudant]

Awful? Let's look it up....

1996 - 2004 Marvin Harrison vs New England (Ty Law's NE years - including playoff games and BEFORE Polian's rule challenge)

Games 16

Receptions 86......2 receptions ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

Yards 1248......127 yards ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

TDs 10.....just ABOVE his career yearly average vs the entire NFL

Those "awful" numbers are basically the equivalent of a Pro Bowl season. Your definition of awful is either wildly overstated or Ty Law took a LOT of plays off. I'll let you pick which one.

My hunch is that you're basically extrapolating 1 snowy playoff game, a great game by Law for sure, into an entire career....but the facts of Harrison's body of work simply don't support your comment.

NFL stats usually don't include playoff games. Do your stats include playoff games, when Law shut down Marvin in '03 and '04?

[ViriLudant]

A common theme I've noticed regarding recent WR, is people continuing to mention the contact allowed or lack thereof in recent years. As you said Marvin benefitted from that. So have players like Steve Smith. However I do believe there are certain players when that really wouldn't matter. People like Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall. I'd have loved to see DBs try and get physical who those players. Marvin would have been tossed to the ground. But Calvin? Not so much. I think I could even make the argument that Calvin's stats would be EVEN better had these rules still be in effect.

Agreed. Megatron is just a physical freak. Man, what he'd do with a Peyton or Brady.

[pacolts56]

NFL stats usually don't include playoff games. Do your stats include playoff games, when Law shut down Marvin in '03 and '04?

Yes....all of his games vs New England during Law's tenure were included, as well as 4 regular season games prior to Peyton Manning being drafted in 1998.

As I said in my original post....stats don't tell the whole story and Ty Law did have success against Marvin, but Marvin being characterized as "awful" was a stretch considering his career body of work, some of which did come against Law....which is what I was pointing out to Jim.

It's all good...we're allowed to differ here.

Tom Brady struggled repeatedly against the Denver Broncos and was beaten like a rented mule by the Ravens in the playoffs a few years back....my point is that those 3-4 games shouldn't define a Top 5 player's all-time standing, IMO.

Peyton, on the other hand, owned those very Denver and Baltimore teams in his time as a Colt....but couldn't beat San Diego to save his soul.

Bottom line is that we can cherry-pick 3-4 bad performances of every single great NFL player if we comb thru the information enough.

But my ranking of Harrison as a Top 5 WR was based not only on his career production, but on the well-known opinions of the NFL CBs....not just Ty Law....that had to cover him. I tend to lend more weight to their experience than my own or some other fan's.

[Superman]

NFL stats usually don't include playoff games. Do your stats include playoff games, when Law shut down Marvin in '03 and '04?

Ty Law didn't even play in the playoff game in 2004. Your running game shut down Marvin and everyone else on our offense, not the ghost of Ty Law.

[Fx Stryker]

Agreed. Megatron is just a physical freak. Man, what he'd do with a Peyton or Brady.

Didn't Stafford throw for 5000 yards? A good receiver only needs a capable QB.

[Superman]

Didn't Stafford throw for 5000 yards? A good receiver only needs a capable QB.

A third of them went to dude though.