Lets Be Logical..

[DILLIGAFER]

Ok Colts fans. Let's take a step back and look at the offense.

Where we stand as of now:

1. Our QB. Manning has missed and will most likely miss all of preseason. He should be back for the regular season opener. Our backups: Painter/Orlovsky both are lacking in NFL skill and are shaky at best. Painter has brilliant moments backed up by absolute stupidity. No offense, but its true. Orlovsky is well, best remembered from his lackluster days and him saftying his own team by running out of the endzone. In other words, we need a healthy Manning.

2. Our RB's. Addai has been shown to be more injury prone as of late. He seems to get bottled up too quickly and lacks the strength to help push the pile. Its unfortunate because he is the colts number on pass rush protector for Manning. Brown: has good moments, but is not the pass rush protector Manning needs to feel comfortable. This is his year to shine or he will be sent packing. Carter: rookie, but has serious speed. Time will tell. Spann: rookie, but i really like what im seeing from him. Good judgement, speed, waits for lanes to open up, strong, also can pass block. Im waiting to see how he is as a RB receiver.

3. TE's. Clark: what can I say. Its Clark. He's a legend as far as I'm concerned. Mannings number 1 go to guy. Soft hands, quick, picks up blocks, physical, great routes! Just hope his wrist is healed. Tamme: Man, what a back up. Regardless of what anyone says, he came in for Clark and shined for Manning! Best TE backup in the NFL i feel.

4. WR's. Wayne: after Harrison moved on, he took over as the number 1 receiver. Speed, physical, tough as nails, reliable! Down side, he is getting older. Collie: outstanding number 2, shows all the makings of a future number 1 receiver. Speed, smart, great routes, soft hands. Down side, concussions/ injuries. Gonzo: humm. Hard to evaluate due to him seeming being made of glass. He did show a ton of potential, but time will tell. Garcon: I will admit it, I really like this guys fire! He plays with passion. Strong, but has moments where he seems to be lost and ends up loosing his focus and drops alot of passes. White: came in last year and really stepped up well. Average WR. On PUP.. hope he is ok, he is a great backup. Smith: not sure.

5. OL. Saturday: Legend center. Hes the bread to Mannings butter. Diem: urg. Average at best. McClendon: showing some good signs. Needs more time. Rookies: Castonzo/Ijalana: showing goos signs of becoming starters. Being schooled by two of the NFLs best Dwabert Frathis will only help.

6. Problem areas of concern. First and foremost i am worried about the health of our receiving corps. The colts have the best pass QB ever and he needs to be surrounded by quality WR. As of today we are down 3 starting WR's. Not good. Hopefully they recover quickly. In the mean time, who would you like to see the colts bring in for WR help. And make them logical picks.

Second, a quality backup QB. Could Manning go down. You bet, then what's the options? Painter? Orlovsky? They are not IMO good enough backups to pick up any slack. I personally really liked Brandstater as a backup. Why we let him go, i will never understand. IMO he is better than Painter.

Discuss..

[maynard327]

Ok Colts fans. Let's take a step back and look at the offense.

Where we stand as of now:

1. Our QB. Manning has missed and will most likely miss all of preseason. He should be back for the regular season opener. Our backups: Painter/Orlovsky both are lacking in NFL skill and are shaky at best. Painter has brilliant moments backed up by absolute stupidity. No offense, but its true. Orlovsky is well, best remembered from his lackluster days and him saftying his own team by running out of the endzone. In other words, we need a healthy Manning.

2. Our RB's. Addai has been shown to be more injury prone as of late. He seems to get bottled up too quickly and lacks the strength to help push the pile. Its unfortunate because he is the colts number on pass rush protector for Manning. Brown: has good moments, but is not the pass rush protector Manning needs to feel comfortable. This is his year to shine or he will be sent packing. Carter: rookie, but has serious speed. Time will tell. Spann: rookie, but i really like what im seeing from him. Good judgement, speed, waits for lanes to open up, strong, also can pass block. Im waiting to see how he is as a RB receiver.

3. TE's. Clark: what can I say. Its Clark. He's a legend as far as I'm concerned. Mannings number 1 go to guy. Soft hands, quick, picks up blocks, physical, great routes! Just hope his wrist is healed. Tamme: Man, what a back up. Regardless of what anyone says, he came in for Clark and shined for Manning! Best TE backup in the NFL i feel.

4. WR's. Wayne: after Harrison moved on, he took over as the number 1 receiver. Speed, physical, tough as nails, reliable! Down side, he is getting older. Collie: outstanding number 2, shows all the makings of a future number 1 receiver. Speed, smart, great routes, soft hands. Down side, concussions/ injuries. Gonzo: humm. Hard to evaluate due to him seeming being made of glass. He did show a ton of potential, but time will tell. Garcon: I will admit it, I really like this guys fire! He plays with passion. Strong, but has moments where he seems to be lost and ends up loosing his focus and drops alot of passes. White: came in last year and really stepped up well. Average WR. On PUP.. hope he is ok, he is a great backup. Smith: not sure.

5. OL. Saturday: Legend center. Hes the bread to Mannings butter. Diem: urg. Average at best. McClendon: showing some good signs. Needs more time. Rookies: Castonzo/Ijalana: showing goos signs of becoming starters. Being schooled by two of the NFLs best Dwabert Frathis will only help.

6. Problem areas of concern. First and foremost i am worried about the health of our receiving corps. The colts have the best pass QB ever and he needs to be surrounded by quality WR. As of today we are down 3 starting WR's. Not good. Hopefully they recover quickly. In the mean time, who would you like to see the colts bring in for WR help. And make them logical picks.

Second, a quality backup QB. Could Manning go down. You bet, then what's the options? Painter? Orlovsky? They are not IMO good enough backups to pick up any slack. I personally really liked Brandstater as a backup. Why we let him go, i will never understand. IMO he is better than Painter.

Discuss..

Well, if TO is healthy I'd want us to get him ahead of anyone else. If not, then Moss or Housh in that order. As far as the backup, I'm curious what it would take to get Matt Flynn from Green Bay. He may not be attainable, but if they'd be willing to deal him for future draft pick(s), I think that'd be a great option. He could be Mannings eventual replacement after many seasons of learning from him, plus he's solid enough right now to step in and keep us competitive if Manning was unable to play. Other than him, maybe Mallet from New England, but I wouldn't want to give New England any of our draft picks. I don't know of any free agent QBs that would put us in that much better of a position than we are in right now, sad as it is.

[Kingmanning89]

I think that if T.O. is willing to come to Indy on a one-year contract, the Colts should pull the trigger. Although Owens has been known to cause problems for teams in the past, I feel that he is at the point of his career where he knows he isn't "the star" on a given team anymore. Working with a winner like Peyton Manning might entice T.O. to keep his mouth shut and be a productive veteran presence on the team. As far as addressing the backup QB situation, there are a few guys that would be interesting to think about. I thought Caleb Hanie played fairly well in the playoffs last year after Cutler went down with an injury and kept the Bears competitive during the game, although I'm not sure how much I'd be prepared to give up for him. As mentioned above, Flynn looks like he may have potential, but again, we don't want to give up too much for a QB to sit on the bench and develop for the next few years. I'd be comfortable giving up a second or third round draft pick to get either of these guys. Finally, two guys to keep an eye on would be Dennis Dixon, who has flashed signs of brilliance with the Steelers, and free agent Troy Smith. Smith made some great plays for a less-than stellar San Francisco team last year and I feel that he would make a better QB than Curtis Painter if Manning ever had to miss time.

[IndyTrav]

Good stuff agreed with most, but Austin Collie will never be a #1 WR in the NFL.

[Mouthfire]

Good stuff agreed with most, but Austin Collie will never be a #1 WR in the NFL.

Why not?

[21isSuperman]

Good stuff agreed with most, but Austin Collie will never be a #1 WR in the NFL.

Why not? He led the league in most WR categories last year before getting injured. He is a smart, hard working player. I could see him as a number one on many teams

[Mouthfire]

Why not? He led the league in most WR categories last year before getting injured. He is a smart, hard working player. I could see him as a number one on many teams

+1

He wasn't just the best WR on the Colts, for that period.... He was best in the league.

[jvan1973]

Why not? He led the league in most WR categories last year before getting injured. He is a smart, hard working player. I could see him as a number one on many teams

He is a slot guy like Welker.. Welker led the league in catches in 2009 , but i dont think anyone thinks he is a #1 WR.. I think Collie is as good as Welker though..

[-JJ-]

He is a slot guy like Welker.. Welker led the league in catches in 2009 , but i dont think anyone thinks he is a #1 WR.. I think Collie is as good as Welker though..

The only reason Welker led the league 09 is because they threw to him way too much...they had no choice that season. Lucky he wasn't killed.

[Mouthfire]

He is a slot guy like Welker.. Welker led the league in catches in 2009 , but i dont think anyone thinks he is a #1 WR.. I think Collie is as good as Welker though..

You don't think Welker is the Pats' #1 receiver?

[Mouthfire]

Also, I believe Collie was leading the league in TDs up that point. That's pretty good for someone who supposedly can't be a #1 receiver.

[21isSuperman]

He is a slot guy like Welker.. Welker led the league in catches in 2009 , but i dont think anyone thinks he is a #1 WR.. I think Collie is as good as Welker though..

Hines Ward tends to play in the slot a fair amount and he was the Steelers' number one receiver for a while. Just because a dude is a slot receiver, that doesn't mean he can't be a number one. If I'm recalling correctly, Steve Smith played/plays a fair bit in the slot too and he was Carolina's number one

[coltsfan9710]

Good stuff agreed with most, but Austin Collie will never be a #1 WR in the NFL.

I disagree with this statement... the guy came out of nowhere to put up the numbers that he has... He definitely has as much of a shot as any other WR out there...

I agree with the Brandstater argument, too!

[GoColts8818]

Good stuff agreed with most, but Austin Collie will never be a #1 WR in the NFL.

Agreed!

I love Austin Collie and I think he's a star player for us and could very well turn out to be a pro-bowler for us but he is not and never will be a number 1 WR. Guys have roles on teams and Collie is a slot guy. Could he play outside? Probably but that's not his strong suit and he has said that himself and just because he does it on a play here or there doesn't mean he's built for it. Collie is very much like Brandon Stokley. He's built to be in the slot and I think if you moved him outside you would see a drop in what he gives our offense.

Also, rather people like to admit this or Collie benefits from playing behind Reggie Wayne, Clark and Garcon. That's just too many guys to get good match ups on everyone and more times than not it's Collie who draws the weak match up which is why Peyton throws to him so much. It doesn't mean Collie's not a great player because I think he is and like most good teams the Colts have put him in the best spot possiable to do well.

[coltsfan9710]

I think that if T.O. is willing to come to Indy on a one-year contract, the Colts should pull the trigger. Although Owens has been known to cause problems for teams in the past, I feel that he is at the point of his career where he knows he isn't "the star" on a given team anymore. Working with a winner like Peyton Manning might entice T.O. to keep his mouth shut and be a productive veteran presence on the team. As far as addressing the backup QB situation, there are a few guys that would be interesting to think about. I thought Caleb Hanie played fairly well in the playoffs last year after Cutler went down with an injury and kept the Bears competitive during the game, although I'm not sure how much I'd be prepared to give up for him. As mentioned above, Flynn looks like he may have potential, but again, we don't want to give up too much for a QB to sit on the bench and develop for the next few years. I'd be comfortable giving up a second or third round draft pick to get either of these guys. Finally, two guys to keep an eye on would be Dennis Dixon, who has flashed signs of brilliance with the Steelers, and free agent Troy Smith. Smith made some great plays for a less-than stellar San Francisco team last year and I feel that he would make a better QB than Curtis Painter if Manning ever had to miss time.

IMO... just my opinion, folks, I'm not a professional... I would personally say H*LL NO to T.O. I think he would be too much of a distraction and not really worth the hassle... Caleb Hanie, on the other hand, I would welcome him to the team... I feel that he is a capable, quality backup QB... starter? not on a regular basis, but if we absolutely had to have him start a game or two, sure... I feel that he definitely has the skill set to handle the situation and perform.

H*LL NO to T.O.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GoColts8818]

For all those calling for us to sign TO let's be logical, the guy is coming off a knee injury is getting old and has worn out his welcome with every team he has ever played for. There is a lot more risk than reward here. Signing TO would be a sign that the Colts are desperate. A guy like Housh I could see because he's never been seen as a diva like TO is. Also, if we keep our guys healthy (and yes I know Gonzo and Collie are hurt but both have minor injuries according to reports) we are pretty stacked at WR and that's before you even get to Clark and probably Tamme and not to mention Addai out of the back field. Ther is no way we would get enough passes to a guy like TO or Moss to make them happy and when they aren't happy they cause problems and those problems can derail a seaosn quickly.

[ColtsVsTheWorld]

IMO... just my opinion, folks, I'm not a professional... I would personally say H*LL NO to T.O. I think he would be too much of a distraction and not really worth the hassle... Caleb Hanie, on the other hand, I would welcome him to the team... I feel that he is a capable, quality backup QB... starter? not on a regular basis, but if we absolutely had to have him start a game or two, sure... I feel that he definitely has the skill set to handle the situation and perform.

H*LL NO to T.O.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure how I feel about the T.O. show in Indy, it could easily go either way, but I do like your campaign slogan... lol

[Malakai432]

Just on the topic of receivers, Andre Johnson is a beast. IMO he's probably the best receiver in the league + he completely kicked the  out of Cortland Finnigan. That alone scores him some more points on my book! 

[Blue Horseshoe]

IMO... just my opinion, folks, I'm not a professional... I would personally say H*LL NO to T.O. I think he would be too much of a distraction and not really worth the hassle... Caleb Hanie, on the other hand, I would welcome him to the team... I feel that he is a capable, quality backup QB... starter? not on a regular basis, but if we absolutely had to have him start a game or two, sure... I feel that he definitely has the skill set to handle the situation and perform.

H*LL NO to T.O.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It should have happened 5 years ago along with Moss. Both were literally available for vet minimum and were still in their physical prime. (Just stop for a second and imagine the fireworks which could have been put up with Manning at quarterback and Harrison, Moss, Owens, Wayne, and Clark at receiver)

Now both are too old and too beat up to make it worth the potential risk of discord.

[ruksak]

You don't think Welker is the Pats' #1 receiver?

+1 for that little nugget.

Just because he doesn't line up on the outside doesn't mean he isn't the go-to guy. The idea that the slot receiver is a 2nd stringer is a fallacy.

As to Collie: Yes, his production shows inarguably that he has the goods to be the primary receiver on any team. With Reggie being in his advanced age, Collie will fill any void left by Wayne's lost speed. As far as Collie's toughness, I think if Welker took that first hit that knocked Collie out, Welker would have twitched and concussed just the same. No human being can take a blow to the noggin like that and get back up.

[Rich Cannon]

Good stuff agreed with most, but Austin Collie will never be a #1 WR in the NFL.

I got to hear the logic on this one lol

[DILLIGAFER]

Yes, i am also very curious how you decided he would never be a number one receiver. He has all the makings. Speed, skill, soft hands, great routes, smart, physical.

+1 to the Welker comment. He is as far as I am concerned, the Pats number one receiver regardless of the fact he is a slot receiver.

[Superman]

Is the #1 receiver the guy who gets thrown at the most, who makes the most catches and produces the most for his team? If so, Collie was our #1 receiver to begin the season last year.

If you're looking at the #1 receiver as the guy the defense rotates their help to, someone who can blow the top off the secondary, who wins one-on-one matchups no matter who he's being covered by, then no, that's not Collie. But it's not really Reggie either, and it's not Dallas either. If that's the criteria, then there are only six or seven #1 guys in the NFL.

I think our offense is designed to take advantage of mismatches, to put our players in position to produce. As such, any one of our guys can be the go-to receiver, depending on what the defense is giving us. One thing I'll say about Collie is that he can run all the routes, and he can catch all the balls. He's not the fastest receiver, but he ain't slow either. He was on pace for over 100 catches, 1300 yards and 14 touchdowns last season. That's #1 production, no doubt about it. Those would have been top three numbers in the league.

[Balzer40]

Im still waiting for someone to be logical. lol, just kidding!

[JoKeR]

Slot receivers are not back ups. With the right players(not just some scrub ) it should be the hardest position for the defense to cover. Not so much because of the player but because of design. It usually causes a mismatch.

[GoColts8818]

Slot receivers are not back ups. With the right players(not just some scrub ) it should be the hardest position for the defense to cover. Not so much because of the player but because of design. It usually causes a mismatch.

That is what I was trying to get it, outside WR and slot WR are two different poistions, sorta like running back and fullback or Cornerback and safety, or guard and tackle. They are similar in a lot of ways but they do different things.

[JoKeR]

http://www.rupturarecords.com/catalog/images/SPOCK%20WHITE%20cami.jpg

[GoColts8818]

Is the #1 receiver the guy who gets thrown at the most, who makes the most catches and produces the most for his team? If so, Collie was our #1 receiver to begin the season last year.

If you're looking at the #1 receiver as the guy the defense rotates their help to, someone who can blow the top off the secondary, who wins one-on-one matchups no matter who he's being covered by, then no, that's not Collie. But it's not really Reggie either, and it's not Dallas either. If that's the criteria, then there are only six or seven #1 guys in the NFL.

I think our offense is designed to take advantage of mismatches, to put our players in position to produce. As such, any one of our guys can be the go-to receiver, depending on what the defense is giving us. One thing I'll say about Collie is that he can run all the routes, and he can catch all the balls. He's not the fastest receiver, but he ain't slow either. He was on pace for over 100 catches, 1300 yards and 14 touchdowns last season. That's #1 production, no doubt about it. Those would have been top three numbers in the league.

Sorta, the number one guy to me is your best player, due to coverage he might not always be the guy who gets thrown to the most. Clearly in a perfect world he would be but that doesn't always happen, again depending on your defense and the level of talent behind your number one. They also tend to be the guy who gets the most attention from the other team. Either way you don't have to play on the outside to be the number one guy, Wes Welker in New England last year was a good example of this. Most teams number one plays on the outside though because most teams don't use three wide sets all game to get the slot guy into the game.

I'd agree about Collie he is a very good good player and who shows the signs that he can be pretty special. With that said if you are being fair about it (not saying you aren't just a response to most of the thread) you do have to aknowledge most of the time he draws the weakest corner in coverage and benefits from having Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, and Garcon on the team as well. That isn't a knock on Collie, again he's a good player but it's one thing to do it in singal coverage against the other teams number three corners and doing it against the other teams best corner and normally a safety or another corner like Wayne does. That's why you see so many number two WRs who play with a great WR sign with another team to become that teams number one and struggle. Alvin Harper was a great example of this.

[Superman]

Sorta, the number one guy to me is your best player, due to coverage he might not always be the guy who gets thrown to the most. Clearly in a perfect world he would be but that doesn't always happen, again depending on your defense and the level of talent behind your number one. They also tend to be the guy who gets the most attention from the other team. Either way you don't have to play on the outside to be the number one guy, Wes Welker in New England last year was a good example of this. Most teams number one plays on the outside though because most teams don't use three wide sets all game to get the slot guy into the game.

I'd agree about Collie he is a very good good player and who shows the signs that he can be pretty special. With that said if you are being fair about it (not saying you aren't just a response to most of the thread) you do have to aknowledge most of the time he draws the weakest corner in coverage and benefits from having Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, and Garcon on the team as well. That isn't a knock on Collie, again he's a good player but it's one thing to do it in singal coverage against the other teams number three corners and doing it against the other teams best corner and normally a safety or another corner like Wayne does. That's why you see so many number two WRs who play with a great WR sign with another team to become that teams number one and struggle. Alvin Harper was a great example of this.

Reggie draws the #1 corner, but the #2 corner was on Collie while Garcon was out, and Collie put up ridiculous numbers, playing as an outside receiver. He came back against the Jags and had 8 catches and two touchdowns in the first half before he got knocked out again. That's in 10 targets. Compare to Reggie's 9 targets, 5 catches and 34 yards ... for the game. Any receiver will benefit from not having the defense geared up on them, but we could have said the same thing about Reggie before 2007. He was the #2, always benefited from having Marvin on the other side, and when Marvin went down, Reggie responded with career highs in catches and yards. That's with a rookie on the other side. Some #2 receivers are #2s just because they play on the other side of a great receiver.

I don't know what category Collie fits in, but I'd ask sincerely what his weaknesses are. What prevents him from being a #1 receiver? It's not his skill set; as I said, he can run all the routes, and he can catch all the balls. He doesn't have 4.3 speed, but he's not slow (Ran a 4.55; Reggie ran a 4.45; Welker ran a 4.65; Brandon Lloyd ran a 4.62). And by the way, Desean Jackson is arguably the fastest receiver in the NFL, and is widely regarded as the Eagles go-to receiver, but he was outproduced by three teammates last season. 48% catch rate, and we dogged Garcon out for his 56% catch rate. Collie isn't going to run past the fastest guy on the defense, but he'll hit you with a sluggo and be in the endzone for a touchdown before you can say "Bob's your uncle." He's a technician, much like Reggie is, and I prefer that over a sloppy speedster like Jackson or Garcon anyday. So unless you can tell me what prevents him from being able to produce at the level he was producing before he got hurt last season (which was top level production), I don't understand the blanket statement that "he'll never be a #1 receiver."

Doesn't really matter to me where he lines up on the field, who's covering him, etc., etc. As long as he puts up numbers, he's doing his job. Maybe he's not our #1 threat, but he was our #1 option last season, and if he's putting up #1 numbers, I'm fine with that. Classify him however you want. He's a really, really good receiver. He's in a great situation, and he's been taking advantage of it. I just hope to heck he stays on his feet and doesn't get his bell rung again.

[GoColts8818]

Reggie draws the #1 corner, but the #2 corner was on Collie while Garcon was out, and Collie put up ridiculous numbers, playing as an outside receiver. He came back against the Jags and had 8 catches and two touchdowns in the first half before he got knocked out again. That's in 10 targets. Compare to Reggie's 9 targets, 5 catches and 34 yards ... for the game. Any receiver will benefit from not having the defense geared up on them, but we could have said the same thing about Reggie before 2007. He was the #2, always benefited from having Marvin on the other side, and when Marvin went down, Reggie responded with career highs in catches and yards. That's with a rookie on the other side. Some #2 receivers are #2s just because they play on the other side of a great receiver.

I don't know what category Collie fits in, but I'd ask sincerely what his weaknesses are. What prevents him from being a #1 receiver? It's not his skill set; as I said, he can run all the routes, and he can catch all the balls. He doesn't have 4.3 speed, but he's not slow (Ran a 4.55; Reggie ran a 4.45; Welker ran a 4.65; Brandon Lloyd ran a 4.62). And by the way, Desean Jackson is arguably the fastest receiver in the NFL, and is widely regarded as the Eagles go-to receiver, but he was outproduced by three teammates last season. 48% catch rate, and we dogged Garcon out for his 56% catch rate. Collie isn't going to run past the fastest guy on the defense, but he'll hit you with a sluggo and be in the endzone for a touchdown before you can say "Bob's your uncle." He's a technician, much like Reggie is, and I prefer that over a sloppy speedster like Jackson or Garcon anyday. So unless you can tell me what prevents him from being able to produce at the level he was producing before he got hurt last season (which was top level production), I don't understand the blanket statement that "he'll never be a #1 receiver."

Doesn't really matter to me where he lines up on the field, who's covering him, etc., etc. As long as he puts up numbers, he's doing his job. Maybe he's not our #1 threat, but he was our #1 option last season, and if he's putting up #1 numbers, I'm fine with that. Classify him however you want. He's a really, really good receiver. He's in a great situation, and he's been taking advantage of it. I just hope to heck he stays on his feet and doesn't get his bell rung again.

You said the key words when Garcon was out. Gonzo was also hurt during that time. We didn't have a choice but to play Collie on the outside. Given the choice the Colts prefer Collie in the slot because that is where he is at his best. Again I have never said Collie can't play outside. He can, it's just not what he's built to do, he's built to be a slot guy. Just like Wayne can play the slot from time-to-time but he's built to be on the outside. Like all good players they can do multipal things, but Collie's skills are best being used in the slot. Again nothing wrong with that it's not a slight in any shape or form towards Collie.

Yes Wayne clearly fits the mold of a guy who was a great WR who was a number two playing behind Marvin Harrison. Yes that happens sometimes, Tim Brown and Jerry Rice in Oakland or Cris Carter and Randy Moss with the Vikings are other two examples of this. I was not trying to compare Collie to Alvin Harper. I was just pointing sometimes a guy gets a good match up because he is on a team with another star player. Collie got most of his passes because of what I said before, match ups. Again not an attack of Collie. Wayne benefited from being on the otherside of Harrison. It didn't make Wayne any less of a player. I am just pointng out that Collie gets the large number of passes that go his way because of match ups not because he's our number one WR. I am in no way saying that I don't think Collie is good I think he is very good and probably the second best WR we have on the roster behind Wayne which is why I expect teams to start adjusting their coverage on Collie which I think will lead to a big season for Garcon if he can catch the ball.

[Superman]

You said the key words when Garcon was out. Gonzo was also hurt during that time. We didn't have a choice but to play Collie on the outside. Given the choice the Colts prefer Collie in the slot because that is where he is at his best. Again I have never said Collie can't play outside. He can, it's just not what he's built to do, he's built to be a slot guy. Just like Wayne can play the slot from time-to-time but he's built to be on the outside. Like all good players they can do multipal things, but Collie's skills are best being used in the slot. Again nothing wrong with that it's not a slight in any shape or form towards Collie.

Yes Wayne clearly fits the mold of a guy who was a great WR who was a number two playing behind Marvin Harrison. Yes that happens sometimes, Tim Brown and Jerry Rice in Oakland or Cris Carter and Randy Moss with the Vikings are other two examples of this. I was not trying to compare Collie to Alvin Harper. I was just pointing sometimes a guy gets a good match up because he is on a team with another star player. Collie got most of his passes because of what I said before, match ups. Again not an attack of Collie. Wayne benefited from being on the otherside of Harrison. It didn't make Wayne any less of a player. I am just pointng out that Collie gets the large number of passes that go his way because of match ups not because he's our number one WR. I am in no way saying that I don't think Collie is good I think he is very good and probably the second best WR we have on the roster behind Wayne which is why I expect teams to start adjusting their coverage on Collie which I think will lead to a big season for Garcon if he can catch the ball.

... And he put up phenomenal numbers.

He's at his best working out of the slot. No question about that. That doesn't mean he can't excel on the outside, which he showed when Garcon was out. I think the primary reason we should keep Collie in the slot is because Garcon can't play inside, not because Collie can't play outside. He can, and well, as he showed when he was the outside receiver. I'm still wondering what prevents him from being a go-to receiver, because it's not his abilities.

Defenses won't just let teams throw to a receiver over and over again, regardless of the matchups, especially if he's scoring touchdowns. The first half of the second Jags game showed me everything I needed to know. Manning threw to Collie ten times in the first half alone, and he was on fire. Nothing the Jags could do about that. It's harder to double a slot receiver than an outside receiver, but it's not impossible. And that's one of the virtues of having a receiver that commands extra attention: it opens things up for your other receivers. As you said earlier, that's normally what your #1 receiver does. If Austin's ability to produce from wherever he's lined up (which he proved last season before he got hurt) forces defenses to play Reggie and Dallas honest, then it's pick-your-poison time for Manning.

Like I said, I'm not concerned with how he's classified. I think it goes against reason to pigeon-hole him as just a complementary slot receiver, as others have tried to do, and I think it's ridiculous to say that "he'll never be a #1 receiver," given his production last year. He clearly has the tools. Doesn't matter to me what role he plays, as long as he's productive and stays upright. I'm an Austin Collie fan, that's for sure.

[GoColts8818]

... And he put up phenomenal numbers.

He's at his best working out of the slot. No question about that. That doesn't mean he can't excel on the outside, which he showed when Garcon was out. I think the primary reason we should keep Collie in the slot is because Garcon can't play inside, not because Collie can't play outside. He can, and well, as he showed when he was the outside receiver. I'm still wondering what prevents him from being a go-to receiver, because it's not his abilities.

Defenses won't just let teams throw to a receiver over and over again, regardless of the matchups, especially if he's scoring touchdowns. The first half of the second Jags game showed me everything I needed to know. Manning threw to Collie ten times in the first half alone, and he was on fire. Nothing the Jags could do about that. It's harder to double a slot receiver than an outside receiver, but it's not impossible. And that's one of the virtues of having a receiver that commands extra attention: it opens things up for your other receivers. As you said earlier, that's normally what your #1 receiver does. If Austin's ability to produce from wherever he's lined up (which he proved last season before he got hurt) forces defenses to play Reggie and Dallas honest, then it's pick-your-poison time for Manning.

Like I said, I'm not concerned with how he's classified. I think it goes against reason to pigeon-hole him as just a complementary slot receiver, as others have tried to do, and I think it's ridiculous to say that "he'll never be a #1 receiver," given his production last year. He clearly has the tools. Doesn't matter to me what role he plays, as long as he's productive and stays upright. I'm an Austin Collie fan, that's for sure.

I never said Collie couldn't excell on the outside... In fact I agree with you on that point and have said that several times. I just said he's at his best in the slot which you seem to agree about. Clearly Collie is a go-to guy as long as he's healthy. He's just not our number one guy over Reggie Wayne. I thought about it more today and to me what truly makes you a number one WR is who the other team game plans to take away from you. Right now that is Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark. I would also say I am sure Collie is climbing on that list. I think Collie gets as many chances as he does not because he's our first choice on passing plays but simply because of matchups. Not unlike the last few years of Marvin and Wayne Wayne got more chances than Marvin because the match ups were better. Again that is in no way a nock on how good the guy is. I think Collie is a very good player and could be the next Wes Welker in this league if he stays healthy. I just disagree with the idea that the number one WR is always the guy who gets the most passes thrown his way. It works for most teams because they only really have one star WR so a QB is going to throw to him most of the time because even him in double coverage is better than their next guy in singal coverage. However, when you get to a team like the Colts that probably has three pro-bowl level players at the reciever spot (including Dallas) most of the passses are going to go the guy who gets the best match ups and right now that's Collie.

[Larry Horseman]

This is a really interesting conversation, and I agree with both sides. When I think of Collie or Welker, I don't think of a #1 WR. However, when you look at production, Welker has and Collie could put up #1 WR numbers out of the slot. However, I would say the #1 on the Colts is Wayne and was Moss for the Pats. Now I don't think the Pats have a true #1 WR, and I would say the same about the Eagles and the Saints. These teams operate their offenses based on match-ups from week to week (or the big play). I don't think every NFL team has a number #1 either out of choice (e.g., Pats) or poor talent evaluation (e.g., San Fran.).

I define a #1 WR as a player who lines up on the outside and is the go to every week as a possession and TD threat regardless of match-ups (Revis island excluded). I think of Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitz, Wayne, Greg Jennings, Roddy White, Brandon Marshall, Santonio Holmes, possibly Miles Austin. Players like Bowe, Britt, Lloyd, Williams from TB are also #1's based on last year's production I suppose.

I guess it depends on what you consider a #1 WR. If Collie were our #1 receiver, I think our offense would be a lot different....just like the Pats were different with Welker as a #1 last year post-Moss. Peyton can count on coverage rolling to Reggie, and I find it hard to believe Collie would get the same respect from a defense if he were lined up as a traditional #1 receiver. I can also second guess this assertion so who knows. Good fodder nonetheless...

[Superman]

I never said Collie couldn't excell on the outside... In fact I agree with you on that point and have said that several times. I just said he's at his best in the slot which you seem to agree about. Clearly Collie is a go-to guy as long as he's healthy. He's just not our number one guy over Reggie Wayne. I thought about it more today and to me what truly makes you a number one WR is who the other team game plans to take away from you. Right now that is Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark. I would also say I am sure Collie is climbing on that list. I think Collie gets as many chances as he does not because he's our first choice on passing plays but simply because of matchups. Not unlike the last few years of Marvin and Wayne Wayne got more chances than Marvin because the match ups were better. Again that is in no way a nock on how good the guy is. I think Collie is a very good player and could be the next Wes Welker in this league if he stays healthy. I just disagree with the idea that the number one WR is always the guy who gets the most passes thrown his way. It works for most teams because they only really have one star WR so a QB is going to throw to him most of the time because even him in double coverage is better than their next guy in singal coverage. However, when you get to a team like the Colts that probably has three pro-bowl level players at the reciever spot (including Dallas) most of the passses are going to go the guy who gets the best match ups and right now that's Collie.

Fair enough. My contention is just with the pigeon-holing: He's just a slot receiver, he can never be a #1. Whatever. His numbers speak for him louder than I ever could.

I don't really like the Welker comparison either. Collie gets vertical more often than Welker does, who gets quick-hit 50% of the time. I like Welker, and again, his numbers speak for him as well, but he gets propped up as the prototypical slot receiver and I don't think he is. He's a possession receiver who works out of the slot, and there's nothing wrong with his skill set or his ability, but he's not the kind of slot receiver I want. I want my slot receiver to split the zone coverage up the seam. I want him to work the intermediate areas and make defenses pay for getting too spread out. Yeah, he's my hot receiver more often than not, so his ypc might be a little lower, but not that much. Stokley always comes to mind, because he really excelled (at his best, he was a 13-16 ypc receiver, not a 10 ypc receiver). But Stokley had limitations that Collie doesn't have. I firmly believe Collie can be significantly better than Stokley.

[GoColts8818]

Fair enough. My contention is just with the pigeon-holing: He's just a slot receiver, he can never be a #1. Whatever. His numbers speak for him louder than I ever could.

I don't really like the Welker comparison either. Collie gets vertical more often than Welker does, who gets quick-hit 50% of the time. I like Welker, and again, his numbers speak for him as well, but he gets propped up as the prototypical slot receiver and I don't think he is. He's a possession receiver who works out of the slot, and there's nothing wrong with his skill set or his ability, but he's not the kind of slot receiver I want. I want my slot receiver to split the zone coverage up the seam. I want him to work the intermediate areas and make defenses pay for getting too spread out. Yeah, he's my hot receiver more often than not, so his ypc might be a little lower, but not that much. Stokley always comes to mind, because he really excelled (at his best, he was a 13-16 ypc receiver, not a 10 ypc receiver). But Stokley had limitations that Collie doesn't have. I firmly believe Collie can be significantly better than Stokley.

Rather he can be a number one or not I think has yet to be proven. I don't think it can be proven till he is put in that spot honestly. That's the point I was getting at when I brought up Harper. Sometimes guys who play on the otherside of stars don't come close to putting up the same kinda numbers when they become a number one. Then there are guys like Wayne who thrive on it. I think Collie's numbers are inflatted a little bit just becuase of the coverages he sees. You put any probowl level WR (which I think Collie is) in those spots against the match ups he gets and they are going to put up those kinds of numbers. Again iw ouldn't compare Collie to Stokley I compare him to Wes Welker who I think is the Pats number 1 WR so that should probably tell you what I think of Collie's talent.

[Jason_]

Rather he can be a number one or not I think has yet to be proven. I don't think it can be proven till he is put in that spot honestly. That's the point I was getting at when I brought up Harper. Sometimes guys who play on the otherside of stars don't come close to putting up the same kinda numbers when they become a number one. Then there are guys like Wayne who thrive on it. I think Collie's numbers are inflatted a little bit just becuase of the coverages he sees. You put any probowl level WR (which I think Collie is) in those spots against the match ups he gets and they are going to put up those kinds of numbers. Again iw ouldn't compare Collie to Stokley I compare him to Wes Welker who I think is the Pats number 1 WR so that should probably tell you what I think of Collie's talent.

Basically, imo, a #1 receiver is the guy who faces the best CB on the other team and sometimes (or often) also gets double coverage but is still able to beat the coverage and make plays on a consistent basis. No one can say whether or not Collie could be a #1 receiver until he is put in the position and then we would just have to wait and see. I don't know that he would be able to be a true #1 receiver in the way I've described. Then again, not many receivers actually CAN be that type of #1. Not every team has a true #1 receiver and I would argue that the Colts are one of them. Then again, the way our offense is built we don't really need a true #1. We need guys who are intelligent, run crisp and precise routes and have great hands. Basically a team filled with possession receivers which isn't a bad thing. Possession receivers can still break a big play simply by running those precise routes and beating the coverage or by finding the right holes in the zone and then getting a block or 2 and our WR's are pretty good usually at blocking in the open field as is evidenced by the number of WR bubble screens we run.

Wayne, until he starts to slow down, will continue to be the #1 guy the defense focuses on because he's the most proven on our offense. He's been to pro-bowls and put up consistent numbers both with and without Marvin, which was certainly not easy to do post-Marvin so you definitely have to give Reggie a lot of credit. That doesn't mean he's going to be the most productive or the "most effective" weapon. I think our biggest weapons are Collie and Clark simply by the mismatches they often face and exploit.

**edit: GoColts8818, the one thing I disagree with you on is that I would also be more inclined to compare Collie to Stokely rather than Welker. Welker typically runs short routes but turns them long by making quick moves and making guys miss whereas Stokely had a tendency to be a little more vertical. Actually, the more I think about it maybe it would be best to say that Collie is a combination of the best of Welker and Stokely mixed together. I definitely think Collie has the potential to eclipse both guys so long as he can avoid the concussions.