Update: Colts signing Michael Pittman Jr to three year contract

[chad72]

7 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

The 2018 eagles .  

 

Kind of - they had enough players drafted in the first 2 rounds of the NFL draft but yeah, none elite besides maybe Zach Ertz at that time at TE. Lots of Patriots teams and the Seahawks team that won the SB didn't have first rounder talent for the pass catchers though Gronk was an elite TE and Lynch was an elite RB with an elite defense the Seahawks had. 

 

Agholor - Round 1 draftee of Eagles, Torrey Smith - Round 2, Alshon Jeffery - Round 2, Zach Ertz - Round 2, that is 4 guys in the first 2 rounds.

 

Chiefs, on the other hand, Kadarius Toney - the only 1st rounder a healthy scratch, Rashee Rice - Round 2, Skyy Moore - a 2nd rounder basically a scratch, didn't play meaningful snaps, Kelce - Round 3, Marquez Valdez Scantling - Round 5

 

2017 Eagles definitely had better weapons to put up 41 points on the Patriots in the SB compared to the 2023 Chiefs who, I think, primarily won on the backs of their D and ball controlling O.

[Solid84]

5 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

The 2018 eagles .  

Chiefs 2024

Chiefs 2023

Rams 2022

Buccaneers 2021

Chiefs 2020

Patriots 2019

Patriots 2017

Broncos 2016

Patriots 2015

…

 

That’s the last 10 years. Congrats, you found an outlier. 

[jvan1973]

3 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Kind of - they had enough players drafted in the first 2 rounds of the NFL draft but yeah, none elite besides maybe Zach Ertz at that time at TE. Lots of Patriots teams and the Seahawks team that won the SB didn't have first rounder talent for the pass catchers though Gronk was an elite TE and Lynch was an elite RB with an elite defense the Seahawks had. 

 

Agholor - Round 1 draftee of Eagles, Torrey Smith - Round 2, Alshon Jeffery - Round 2, Zach Ertz - Round 2, that is 4 guys in the first 2 rounds.

 

Chiefs, on the other hand, Kadarius Toney - the only 1st rounder a healthy scratch, Rashee Rice - Round 2, Skyy Moore - a 2nd rounder basically a scratch, didn't play meaningful snaps, Kelce - Round 3, Marquez Valdez Scantling - Round 5

 

2017 Eagles definitely had better weapons to put up 41 points on the Patriots in the SB compared to the 2023 Chiefs who, I think, primarily won on the backs of their D and ball controlling O.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.   

 

I've never looked into the validity of that statement 

[chad72]

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

There is more than one way to skin a cat.   

 

I've never looked into the validity of that statement 

 

You mean, more than 1 way to win a SB. Yep, I agree with that. 

 

The common theme is stellar and smart QB play. Shootouts like the 2017 SB of the Eagles vs Patriots are rare where both teams score in their 30s, in regulation.

[ADnum1]

21 minutes ago, smittywerb said:

Thinking about this some more, I’m glad it happened.  It’s a win-win.

 

1.  If someone wants to pay Pittman what he wants, and they truly believe he’s a WR1, then they should have no problem paying him and giving up 2 1sts.  That’s what it’s going to take to get a WR1 in this league, if not more.

 

2.  If someone offers him a contract, He gets to see what his value is.  And if it’s not what he thought it was going to be, then he’ll most likely resign anyway.  
 

no need to freak out people.  I think colts fans (maybe all fans) sometimes put so much value on their players that they’re scared to lose them.  Look at the chiefs, they traded probably the best receiver and kept moving.  The Vikings traded diggs and found Jefferson.  It happens.  We’ll be ok.

@w87r has said it doesn't have to be 2 1st round picks.

 

This is just disinformation at this point. 

 

I believe this boards resident capologist

[jvan1973]

4 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Chiefs 2024

Chiefs 2023

Rams 2022

Buccaneers 2021

Chiefs 2020

Patriots 2019

Patriots 2017

Broncos 2016

Patriots 2015

…

 

That’s the last 10 years. Congrats, you found an outlier. 

The 2016 Pats didn't have a dominant pass catcher.   Unless we are calling Edelman a dominant pass catcher 

[Solid84]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

The 2016 Pats didn't have a dominant pass catcher.   Unless we are calling Edelman a dominant pass catcher 

I don’t think anyone who played against Edelman - players or coaches - would call him anything less then a beast in the slot. 

[jvan1973]

4 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

@w87r has said it doesn't have to be 2 1st round picks.

 

This is just disinformation at this point. 

 

I believe this boards resident capologist

Technically. If the tag is used,  the Colts are entitled to 2 first round picks if an offer is made to Pittman and the Colts refuse to match.  Zero disinformation.   The Colts could reciend the tag and then trade him,   but that isn't what we're talking about.   The non exclusive tag, if used is exactly as presented 

[w87r]

Just now, PRnum1 said:

@w87r has said it doesn't have to be 2 1st round picks.

 

This is just disinformation at this point. 

 

I believe this boards resident capologist

People will say what they want to hear.

 

I'm not the resident anything though.

 

 

Franchise tagged players can be traded for less than (2) 1st round picks.

 

The Chiefs are trying to do that very thing with J'Narius Snead this year. Said to be looking for a 2nd round pick.

 

 

It is a fact, that if Pittman signs an offer sheet and we don't match they owe (2) 1st round picks.

 

The problem is everyone is taking a discussion around parameters of a deal, as an official offer sheet.

 

 

Pittman won't take a signed offer sheet to the Colts trying to negotiate more money, he will take parameters of a deal he has discussed with other teams to the Colts, and at that point Ballard and Pittman will have a conversation about what Pittman really wants to do(stay or go). Teams can come to an agreement on trade compensation afterwards.

[jvan1973]

3 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

I don’t think anyone who played against Edelman - players or coaches - would call him anything less then a beast in the slot. 

Ok  so Edelman was a number 1 WR then?  

[w87r]

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

  The Colts could reciend the tag and then trade him

No they can't.

 

If Colts rescind the tag, Pittman is a UFA.

 

 

Pittman has to sign the tag we offered to be eligible to be traded.

[jvan1973]

5 minutes ago, w87r said:

No they can't.

 

If Colts rescind the tag, Pittman is a UFA.

 

 

Pittman has to sign the tag we offered to be eligible to be traded.

Yes, that is true.   But until he signs the tag he is in no man's land.   He can't be traded until he signs the tag.  Either way the Colts are in control

[Solid84]

3 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Ok  so Edelman was a number 1 WR then?  

He was a guy that commanded attention from the defense and the DC had to have a plan for him.
 

We don’t have that guy. 
 

I don’t know if you would call a slot WR1, but I guess he was in 2016. 

[csmopar]

17 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

@w87r has said it doesn't have to be 2 1st round picks.

 

This is just disinformation at this point. 

 

I believe this boards resident capologist

The rules says 2 firsts. 
 

now, what can happen is that the team that wants him can work with the colts do give up a different comp package. But that’s a trade and sign agreement, not really the same as Pittman bringing an offer sheet and the colts not matching. If it were me, I’d not entertain any offer that at least didn’t include a 1 this year. 

[Happy2BeHere]

We either get good draft/player compensation from another team or we get to keep our great WR…win win for the Colts and the fans!

[ColtStrong2013]

32 minutes ago, w87r said:

People will say what they want to hear.

 

People will respond to what they want to read, it also seems.

 

32 minutes ago, w87r said:

I'm not the resident anything though.

 

I think you should embrace it... All hail the forum capologist. 😂

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

12 minutes ago, Happy2BeHere said:

We either get good draft/player compensation from another team or we get to keep our great WR…win win for the Colts and the fans!

Not really good draft compensation if it’s a team picking in the low twenties. And I doubt Pittman would leave for a team that wasn’t considered in Super Bowl contention. 

[ColtStrong2013]

1 minute ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Not really good draft compensation if it’s a team picking in the low twenties. And I doubt Pittman would leave for a team that wasn’t considered in Super Bowl contention. 

 

For a second round pick that wants out, if that is the case? Sounds pretty good to me...

[csmopar]

6 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Not really good draft compensation if it’s a team picking in the low twenties. And I doubt Pittman would leave for a team that wasn’t considered in Super Bowl contention. 

Depends. If KC were to offer me their 32nd pick and say a 3rd this year, I’d take it. I’d then combine that into a package to move up into the top 3 and grab Marv 2.0, or a lesser package to grab Nabers or Bowers, all while hopefully keeping our 2nd rounder. 
 

id then try to go about signing Wilkins to replace Stewart. Leaving the only other glaring hole as Moores replacement 

[w87r]

10 minutes ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

People will respond to what they want to read, it also seems.

 

 

I think you should embrace it... All hail the forum capologist. 😂

I'd be the first to say I think Superman takes the title.

 

I feel I'm pretty well versed, but if I'm ever unsure on something, I check with him. Lol.

[ColtStrong2013]

1 minute ago, w87r said:

I'd be the first to say I think Superman takes the title.

 

I feel I'm pretty well versed, but if I'm ever unsure on something, I check with him. Lol.

 

His name kind of represents the entire umbrella though. You need a title.

[Superman]

40 minutes ago, w87r said:

Pittman won't take a signed offer sheet to the Colts trying to negotiate more money, he will take parameters of a deal he has discussed with other teams to the Colts, and at that point Ballard and Pittman will have a conversation about what Pittman really wants to do(stay or go). Teams can come to an agreement on trade compensation afterwards.

 

At this point, it would be malpractice on the Colts part if they don't make clear to Pittman's agent what they would expect back in a trade. You don't let him go negotiate a contract with a team that he wants to go to, and try to work out the trade compensation later.

[jvan1973]

30 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

He was a guy that commanded attention from the defense and the DC had to have a plan for him.
 

We don’t have that guy. 
 

I don’t know if you would call a slot WR1, but I guess he was in 2016. 

Pittman has produced with a different qb every year of his career.  I think a lot of folks here sell him short.  I think the dude has more than we know

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, w87r said:

I'd be the first to say I think Superman takes the title.

 

I feel I'm pretty well versed, but if I'm ever unsure on something, I check with him. Lol.

 

You do all the work though. I'm just addicted to checking the CBA...

[ColtStrong2013]

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

Pittman has produced with a different qb every year of his career.  I think a lot of folks here sell him short.  I think the dude has more than we know

 

Yeah I think so too. He was a 100- 1000 receiver with a backup. He's made enough highlight catches in his young career to know what he's capable of. I really just want him to push the limits with him to find out. If there was one pro to Carson Wentz, it was that he could push the ball downfield, creating jump ball opportunities for (what was then a very young/raw) Pittman. He drew a lot of PI calls in '21. We haven't had that since.

[Superman]

41 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

He was a guy that commanded attention from the defense and the DC had to have a plan for him.
 

We don’t have that guy. 
 

I don’t know if you would call a slot WR1, but I guess he was in 2016. 

 

Hold up...

 

We can talk about MPJ not being a "true #1" or whatever title we want to come up with. I agree, he's not one of the top guys who will take over a game and beat great coverage, etc., etc. Second tier, third tier, whatever. When I talk about #1 WRs, I'm talking about players who are better and more dynamic than MPJ.

 

But are you putting Edelman on a tier ahead of Pittman? What's the difference between Pittman in 2023, and Edelman in 2016? 

[w87r]

34 minutes ago, csmopar said:

The rules says 2 firsts. 
 

now, what can happen is that the team that wants him can work with the colts do give up a different comp package. But that’s a trade and sign agreement, not really the same as Pittman bringing an offer sheet and the colts not matching. If it were me, I’d not entertain any offer that at least didn’t include a 1 this year. 

Yeah, right there with you. At least a 1st and 4th really.

 

My biggest gripe was, it being stated for a fact that Pittman will either be back or we get (2) 1st if not.

 

That's just not the facts. He can be gone woth far less compensation attached. 

 

Now if he would sign an offer sheet, that's different. Yes, like the rule states we would receive (2) 1st, but there are ways around it 

 

 

Biggest thing I see conflicting people is the term "offer sheet".

 

Of course if Pittman was presented an offer sheet, the Colts would let him go for the (2) 1st, without even looking at the offer, probably. 

 

That's not how this process will play out though, if Pittman is tag and traded. The other team and Pittman will go over the terms of a new deal, that could be signed once the trade goes through. It won't be an actual "offer sheet" though.

[smittywerb]

1 hour ago, PRnum1 said:

@w87r has said it doesn't have to be 2 1st round picks.

 

This is just disinformation at this point. 

 

I believe this boards resident capologist

If what I’ve googled is correct, then it is indeed 2 first round picks from the new team.

 

”Non-exclusive franchise tag: The most commonly used tag. When most refer to the "franchise tag," they generally talk about the non-exclusive version. This is a one-year tender of the average of the top five salaries at the player's position over the last five years, or 120 percent of his previous salary, whichever is greater. The tagged player can negotiate with other teams, but his current team has the right to match any offer or receive two first-round draft picks as compensation if he signs with another club.”

 

And that’s coming from nfl.com

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/2024-nfl-franchise-tag-tracker-latest-tag-news-on-deadline-day

[GoColts8818]

3 minutes ago, smittywerb said:

If what I’ve googled is correct, then it is indeed 2 first round picks from the new team.

 

”Non-exclusive franchise tag: The most commonly used tag. When most refer to the "franchise tag," they generally talk about the non-exclusive version. This is a one-year tender of the average of the top five salaries at the player's position over the last five years, or 120 percent of his previous salary, whichever is greater. The tagged player can negotiate with other teams, but his current team has the right to match any offer or receive two first-round draft picks as compensation if he signs with another club.”

 

And that’s coming from nfl.com

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/2024-nfl-franchise-tag-tracker-latest-tag-news-on-deadline-day

What others are talking about is you can trade him without him signing a new offer while he’s on the tag.  That can be for anything you deem acceptable to make a trade.  That’s what the Chiefs are reportedly doing with Sneed so they don’t lose him for nothing. 
 

this doesn’t really apply to the Colts as they want to keep Pittman and aren’t looking to trade him so they have incentive to take less than two first round picks.  Even then I don’t think it’s going to come close to that.  
 

Pittman wants to be here.  The Colts want him.  They will get a deal done.

[smittywerb]

19 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

At this point, it would be malpractice on the Colts part if they don't make clear to Pittman's agent what they would expect back in a trade. You don't let him go negotiate a contract with a team that he wants to go to, and try to work out the trade compensation later.

Agreed.  No way would I not want anything less than 2 first round picks.

 

only way I would think a team would have to do some outside negotiation is if the player makes it clear he doesn’t want to resign and is leaving the following year.  But then I’m sure that would be some type of coercion or violation if that player went to the team he got the offer from. 

[ADnum1]

25 minutes ago, w87r said:

I'd be the first to say I think Superman takes the title.

 

I feel I'm pretty well versed, but if I'm ever unsure on something, I check with him. Lol.

You are far too kind.

 

You must accept the responsibility bestowed upon you

 

[smittywerb]

4 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

What others are talking about is you can trade him without him signing a new offer while he’s on the tag.  That can be for anything you deem acceptable to make a trade.  That’s what the Chiefs are reportedly doing with Sneed so they don’t lose him for nothing. 
 

this doesn’t really apply to the Colts as they want to keep Pittman and aren’t looking to trade him so they have incentive to take less than two first round picks.  Even then I don’t think it’s going to come close to that.  

So all players have to do to get around the non exclusive tag is just wait it out?  Or “don’t sign an offer sheet” and just come back to the colts with what a team offered?

 

Then what’s the point of it?

[w87r]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

At this point, it would be malpractice on the Colts part if they don't make clear to Pittman's agent what they would expect back in a trade. You don't let him go negotiate a contract with a team that he wants to go to, and try to work out the trade compensation later.

That works for players currently under contract, not sure the Colts have much say on who he talks with at this point. He doesn't need our permission to talk to other teams right now, if I'm not mistaken. He is free to go out and see if he can find an offer and situation he likes more and present it to us. We hold all the cards in the end though, regardless.

 

Now if this was the course everyone was on(tag+trade), I would think that the discussion would have came up with his agent about expected compensation. So the other team kinda knows what they are looking at while talking numbers.

 

I get what you're saying though, just a little different. Last year with Taylor, you only let that team talk to him if you have agreed on what compensation would be, if they can come to an agreement on contract. He was under contract though.

 

Don't think we have that control with Pittman now.

[DattMavis]

42 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Not really good draft compensation if it’s a team picking in the low twenties. And I doubt Pittman would leave for a team that wasn’t considered in Super Bowl contention. 

I think we can get a true #1 with our #15 pick. I think at least a few of the top 5 corners fall to the low 20s. If we can get a MPJ replacement and a #1 corner, that would be a great draft.

[GoColts8818]

7 minutes ago, smittywerb said:

So all players have to do to get around the non exclusive tag is just wait it out?  Or “don’t sign an offer sheet” and just come back to the colts with what a team offered?

 

Then what’s the point of it?

No because once tagged the team who tagged them has to agree to a trade.  If they don’t the player is stuck facing either sitting it out and not getting paid or signing and making a boat load of money.  

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, w87r said:

That works for players currently under contract, not sure the Colts have much say on who he talks with at this point. He doesn't need our permission to talk to other teams right now, if I'm not mistaken. He is free to go out and see if he can find an offer and situation he likes more and present it to us. We hold all the cards in the end though, regardless.

 

Now if this was the course everyone was on(tag+trade), I would think that the discussion would have came up with his agent about expected compensation. So the other team kinda knows what they are looking at while talking numbers.

 

I get what you're saying though, just a little different. Last year with Taylor, you only let that team talk to him if you have agreed on what compensation would be, if they can come to an agreement on contract. He was under contract though.

 

Don't think we have that control with Pittman now.

 

You're right, we don't have that kind of control. But now that the tag has been applied, it should be made clear to Pittman's agent that we're not trading him for peanuts. The tag compensation is two firsts, and that shouldn't be disregarded. In fact, the Colts could say 'we're not open to a trade for anything less,' just to make the point clear. 

 

But if they are open to other possibilities, then set the baseline for what we'd be willing to accept. Otherwise the Chiefs come calling saying 'Pittman wants to sign with us, we'll give you a conditional third,' and now the well is poisoned for everyone.

 

I think this is why it's so rare for players to get moved on the tag. Unless it's a situation like the Chiefs and Snead, where both sides are apparently open to moving on and just using the tag to accommodate a trade. But the Colts want to keep Pittman, and have a reasonable offer on the table (we can assume). 

[Solid84]

28 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Hold up...

 

We can talk about MPJ not being a "true #1" or whatever title we want to come up with. I agree, he's not one of the top guys who will take over a game and beat great coverage, etc., etc. Second tier, third tier, whatever. When I talk about #1 WRs, I'm talking about players who are better and more dynamic than MPJ.

 

But are you putting Edelman on a tier ahead of Pittman? What's the difference between Pittman in 2023, and Edelman in 2016? 

I absolutely put Edelman ahead of Pittman? Everytime. 
 

Edelman was a gamechanger. Made guys miss and showed up in clutch situations.

 

Not saying he’s one of the greats, but he was definitely WR1 in the sense he was dynamic and could take over games. 

[w87r]

8 minutes ago, smittywerb said:

So all players have to do to get around the non exclusive tag is just wait it out?  Or “don’t sign an offer sheet” and just come back to the colts with what a team offered?

 

Then what’s the point of it?

They don't really get around it.

 

 

They actually have to sign the 1yr non exclusive tag before they are able to be traded.

 

Then after trade, they will sign a new deal with new team, that $21.8m will be figured in new deal.

 

As far as offer sheets, the only real "official offer sheets" that get signed are on RFA Tenders.

[Superman]

Just now, Solid84 said:

I absolutely put Edelman ahead of Pittman? Everytime. 
 

Edelman was a gamechanger. Made guys miss and showed up in clutch situations.

 

Not saying he’s one of the greats, but he was definitely WR1 in the sense he was dynamic and could take over games. 

 

Wow. Edelman qualifies as a WR1, but Pittman doesn't?

 

Do you have any non-vibe criteria? You call him dynamic, but we knock Pittman's dynamic ability because of his yards/catch, which are basically the same as Edelman's. 

 

Edelman was primarily a slot -- which means he didn't face #1 corners -- who got schemed open, was great after catch, and played with one of the most efficient QBs in NFL history, and alongside one of the most dominant TEs in history. And his statistical production in his best season is basically what people say is not good enough from Pittman in 2023, with a backup QB. 

 

That's a weird one for me. It's one thing to say he's a gamer and you'd rather have him on your team than Pittman. I could get that. But I don't get how he can qualify as a WR1, if Pittman doesn't. To me, neither of them do.

[csmopar]

7 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

You're right, we don't have that kind of control. But now that the tag has been applied, it should be made clear to Pittman's agent that we're not trading him for peanuts. The tag compensation is two firsts, and that shouldn't be disregarded. In fact, the Colts could say 'we're not open to a trade for anything less,' just to make the point clear. 

 

But if they are open to other possibilities, then set the baseline for what we'd be willing to accept. Otherwise the Chiefs come calling saying 'Pittman wants to sign with us, we'll give you a conditional third,' and now the well is poisoned for everyone.

 

I think this is why it's so rare for players to get moved on the tag. Unless it's a situation like the Chiefs and Snead, where both sides are apparently open to moving on and just using the tag to accommodate a trade. But the Colts want to keep Pittman, and have a reasonable offer on the table (we can assume). 

If the chiefs came calling, I might do 32nd this year plus Snead….