Please explain controversial 2-pt conversion

[NewColtsFan]

10 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Do we honestly need to second guess every single play call that ends badly for us? 
 

besides, it was actually the right call, the ball just was tipped. Not really a play call issue as much as a good play by the d

It’s astonishing to me that you actually think this is an appropriate response to my comment.    Unbelievable.  
 

It’s amazing that you and I ever agree on anything.  
 

[GoColts8818]

15 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Do we honestly need to second guess every single play call that ends badly for us? 
 

besides, it was actually the right call, the ball just was tipped. Not really a play call issue as much as a good play by the d

It was a poor throw it was too high and as the announcers pointed out what happened is normally why you see a shovel pass in that situation.  Great play by the Titans no question but the Colts could have absolutely done things better to execute it.  It’s fair to talk about as had the Titans not missed an extra point it would have been the difference in the game.

[Lancer1]

18 hours ago, w87r said:

It's just a 2pt conversion, not a TD.

 

Then they get the ball back because they were about to after our TD.

Just like with a safety

[Reboot]

18 hours ago, Solid84 said:

Not trying to hi-jack the thread here, but I have a follow up question.

 

Say Team A wanted to kick an extra point. It hits the upright and gets caught by Team B in end zone without going out of bounds. Can it be returned for a TD? Or will that be just one point? Can it even be returned?

I believe all kicks which hit the uprights or crossbar and do not result in a made  field goal (and extra point and dropkick) are dead balls. 

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-rulebook/#

Section 2 - Dead Ball - (h) when any legal or illegal kick touches the receivers’ goal posts or crossbar, unless it scores a field goal. (See 9-4-2.)

 

[RollerColt]

3 minutes ago, Reboot said:

I believe all kicks which hit the uprights or crossbar and do not result in a made  field goal (and extra point and dropkick) are dead balls. 

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-rulebook/#

Section 2 - Dead Ball - (h) when any legal or illegal kick touches the receivers’ goal posts or crossbar, unless it scores a field goal. (See 9-4-2.)

 

It would be kind of fun in a complete chaos way to change that rule and make them live lol... 

[Solid84]

6 minutes ago, Reboot said:

I believe all kicks which hit the uprights or crossbar and do not result in a made  field goal (and extra point and dropkick) are dead balls. 

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-rulebook/#

Section 2 - Dead Ball - (h) when any legal or illegal kick touches the receivers’ goal posts or crossbar, unless it scores a field goal. (See 9-4-2.)

 

Interesting, so returning a FG attempt or extra point kick is only a thing if the ball falls short without touching the uprights/crossbar.

[Reboot]

12 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Interesting, so returning a FG attempt or extra point kick is only a thing if the ball falls short without touching the uprights/crossbar.

That's how I read that rule. 

[stitches]

19 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

So I’m watching at my usual sports bar.  The play happens.   Tennessee returns the interception for what is called a touchdown.   Celebration for the Titans. 
 

I use the break to go to the rest room. 
 

I come back and the Tenn TD has been taken away and it’s still Titans ball.  I check the ESPN play-by-play link and it’s worthless.  No explanation for why the TD was called off.  
 

So will anyone and everyone please explain to me what I missed and what I couldn’t get a good explanation for.  

 

And please keep it to the play and not the call by Steichen.  That’s another topic that I’m happy to debate but I just want to focus on the context that has escaped me.  
 

Many, many thanks!    

The Ten TD has not been taken away. The graphic on the live show was wrong to give them 6 points. When you return a TD after 2pt attempt of the opponent you get 2 points not 6. So it was a mistake by the broadcasters graphics team and they fixed it by the time you returned probably. 

[FanFromtheWasteland]

1 hour ago, RollerColt said:

It would be kind of fun in a complete chaos way to change that rule and make them live lol... 

I would also like to see a FG worth 4 points if it is 55 yards or more. That would change the dynamic of the game

[hoosierhawk]

22 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

You played in the NFL?

No. I played so long ago that my first helmet in Junior High was a leather helmet with no face mask. You could fold it up and put in in your locker, I did graduate to plastic helmets with face masks in HS. That was the end of my FB career and only played baseball in college. To give you an idea of how long ago that was I will be going to my 62nd HS class reunion next June. I have been a diehard FB fan ever since then, however.

[Myles]

5 hours ago, stitches said:

The Ten TD has not been taken away. The graphic on the live show was wrong to give them 6 points. When you return a TD after 2pt attempt of the opponent you get 2 points not 6. So it was a mistake by the broadcasters graphics team and they fixed it by the time you returned probably. 

That and if a kickoff goes through the crossbars, it counts as a point.

[Superman]

On 12/3/2023 at 6:19 PM, NewColtsFan said:

Anyone have a recommendation for which thread to post a discussion about the quality of the call Steichen made on the 2-point conversion?     Maybe there’s already a thread handling that?   
 

Recommendations?    

 

I think going for it was the right call. You're up 5 points, well into the second half, it's appropriate to start thinking about the final score. If you fail, you're still up by more than one FG, but can give up the lead with a TD. If you convert, you're up by 7. Just don't give up a return score, which is easier said than done, but still something you should be able to count on. Even if you give up the return score, you're still up by a FG.

 

The play call made sense. If I have a good QB, I want to give him options with the ball in his hand. For Minshew, I like going really scheme heavy and giving him one place to go with the ball. I think the play was well designed, and if the pass gets to Moss, he has a great chance of getting the conversion. It's easy to assume that this was coached to be a shovel or a scoop pass, since that's how we usually see it executed. Maybe the pressure made Minshew feel rushed, or he didn't feel like he had the angle. It's a 1 in a 100 shot that his pass gets tipped up, picked, and returned, so I can't get too worked up about it, but I feel like Minshew didn't execute properly. 

 

And that's what's rough about heavily schemed quick hitters -- if one element is off, the play doesn't work and it looks like a circus. It wound up being worst case scenario, and it could have cost us the game. Thank goodness for the new OT rules, we finally got a break there.

[2006Coltsbestever]

15 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think going for it was the right call. You're up 5 points, well into the second half, it's appropriate to start thinking about the final score. If you fail, you're still up by more than one FG, but can give up the lead with a TD. If you convert, you're up by 7. Just don't give up a return score, which is easier said than done, but still something you should be able to count on. Even if you give up the return score, you're still up by a FG.

 

The play call made sense. If I have a good QB, I want to give him options with the ball in his hand. For Minshew, I like going really scheme heavy and giving him one place to go with the ball. I think the play was well designed, and if the pass gets to Moss, he has a great chance of getting the conversion. It's easy to assume that this was coached to be a shovel or a scoop pass, since that's how we usually see it executed. Maybe the pressure made Minshew feel rushed, or he didn't feel like he had the angle. It's a 1 in a 100 shot that his pass gets tipped up, picked, and returned, so I can't get too worked up about it, but I feel like Minshew didn't execute properly. 

 

And that's what's rough about heavily schemed quick hitters -- if one element is off, the play doesn't work and it looks like a circus. It wound up being worst case scenario, and it could have cost us the game. Thank goodness for the new OT rules, we finally got a break there.

Yeah, it was the right call, I agree 100%. If we get it, we are up 7 late. That takes pressure off of us knowing even they score a TD and kicked the point; it is just a tie game at that point. The INT for the 2 points was a fluke, that happens maybe once or twice a year in a whole season.

[NewColtsFan]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think going for it was the right call. You're up 5 points, well into the second half, it's appropriate to start thinking about the final score. If you fail, you're still up by more than one FG, but can give up the lead with a TD. If you convert, you're up by 7. Just don't give up a return score, which is easier said than done, but still something you should be able to count on. Even if you give up the return score, you're still up by a FG.

 

The play call made sense. If I have a good QB, I want to give him options with the ball in his hand. For Minshew, I like going really scheme heavy and giving him one place to go with the ball. I think the play was well designed, and if the pass gets to Moss, he has a great chance of getting the conversion. It's easy to assume that this was coached to be a shovel or a scoop pass, since that's how we usually see it executed. Maybe the pressure made Minshew feel rushed, or he didn't feel like he had the angle. It's a 1 in a 100 shot that his pass gets tipped up, picked, and returned, so I can't get too worked up about it, but I feel like Minshew didn't execute properly. 

 

And that's what's rough about heavily schemed quick hitters -- if one element is off, the play doesn't work and it looks like a circus. It wound up being worst case scenario, and it could have cost us the game. Thank goodness for the new OT rules, we finally got a break there.

To be clear….  I had no problem going for it.   None.    But I thought the play call, to roll right and have Minshew throw back left was easily the worst call Steichen has made as the Colts coach.   
 

There are exceptions to that rule.   Guys like Mahomes or Elway with a big arm can roll right and throw back left.   But Minshew, as much as I like him, does not have the arm to pull that off, and he demonstrated it.   To me, what happened was entirely predictable.   In the split second I realized he’s going to throw back left, I thought “NO!  What the Heck are you doing?”   The outcome didn't surprise me at all.   
 

Making the call even worse,  it was done from around the 10, so there was heavy traffic.   Everyone compressed in a small area.   This wasn’t done at midfield where bodies can be spread out. 
 

There’s good reason why most QB’s don’t roll right and throw back left.  I always thought most quarterbacks are taught at a young age not to do that?   Maybe not any more?   I just thought Minshew was the wrong guy, and the field position made it the absolute wrong call.  
 

I thought the call was egregiously bad.  Honestly. 

[stitches]

23 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think going for it was the right call. You're up 5 points, well into the second half, it's appropriate to start thinking about the final score. If you fail, you're still up by more than one FG, but can give up the lead with a TD. If you convert, you're up by 7. Just don't give up a return score, which is easier said than done, but still something you should be able to count on. Even if you give up the return score, you're still up by a FG.

It is easier said than done but not by much really. How often does this happen? Like... once or twice a year? In the whole league? This was just a freak outlier of an outcome. It's so rare you should probably not even consider this possibility when deciding whether to attempt 2 pt or not. In fact... I wonder what's more frequent - 2 pt attempt returned for TD or 1 point attempt blocked and returned for a TD? 

 

23 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The play call made sense. If I have a good QB, I want to give him options with the ball in his hand. For Minshew, I like going really scheme heavy and giving him one place to go with the ball. I think the play was well designed, and if the pass gets to Moss, he has a great chance of getting the conversion. It's easy to assume that this was coached to be a shovel or a scoop pass, since that's how we usually see it executed. Maybe the pressure made Minshew feel rushed, or he didn't feel like he had the angle. It's a 1 in a 100 shot that his pass gets tipped up, picked, and returned, so I can't get too worked up about it, but I feel like Minshew didn't execute properly. 

 

And that's what's rough about heavily schemed quick hitters -- if one element is off, the play doesn't work and it looks like a circus. It wound up being worst case scenario, and it could have cost us the game. Thank goodness for the new OT rules, we finally got a break there.

Our offense seems to be one of the most heavily schemed offenses in the league right now. Steichen is doing wonders with what Minshew is providing us as play. I read some stat that the Colts are running RPOs at the highest clip in the league by some huge margin over the second highest(24% vs 19%).. I've been thinking for a while that teams should run RPOs and playaction much more than they usually do. No idea why they are not trying to do it more, even when they have good QBs. And I'm glad Steichen is actually one of the coaches that seems to be using what league-wide is much more efficient play than a regular dropback. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

To be clear….  I had no problem going for it.   None.    But I thought the play call, to roll right and have Minshew throw back left was easily the worst call Steichen has made as the Colts coach.   
 

There are exceptions to that rule.   Guys like Mahomes or Elway with a big arm can roll right and throw back left.   But Minshew, as much as I like him, does not have the arm to pull that off, and he demonstrated it.   To me, what happened was entirely predictable.   In the split second I realized he’s going to throw back left, I thought “NO!  What the Heck are you doing?”   The outcome didn't surprise me at all.   
 

Making the call even worse,  it was done from around the 10, so there was heavy traffic.   Everyone compressed in a small area.   This wasn’t done at midfield where bodies can be spread out. 
 

There’s good reason why most QB’s don’t roll right and throw back left.  I always thought most quarterbacks are taught at a young age not to do that?   Maybe not any more?   I just thought Minshew was the wrong guy, and the field position made it the absolute wrong call.  
 

I thought the call was egregiously bad.  Honestly. 

I would have thrown a fade to Pierce, but hindsight is easy. 

[Superman]

26 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

To be clear….  I had no problem going for it.   None.    But I thought the play call, to roll right and have Minshew throw back left was easily the worst call Steichen has made as the Colts coach.   
 

There are exceptions to that rule.   Guys like Mahomes or Elway with a big arm can roll right and throw back left.   But Minshew, as much as I like him, does not have the arm to pull that off, and he demonstrated it.   To me, what happened was entirely predictable.   In the split second I realized he’s going to throw back left, I thought “NO!  What the Heck are you doing?”   The outcome didn't surprise me at all.   
 

Making the call even worse,  it was done from around the 10, so there was heavy traffic.   Everyone compressed in a small area.   This wasn’t done at midfield where bodies can be spread out. 
 

There’s good reason why most QB’s don’t roll right and throw back left.  I always thought most quarterbacks are taught at a young age not to do that?   Maybe not any more?   I just thought Minshew was the wrong guy, and the field position made it the absolute wrong call.  
 

I thought the call was egregiously bad.  Honestly. 

 

Throwing across the body is a no-no, but that's mostly applicable to throws over the middle of the field. For a shorter pass that's meant to be caught behind the LOS, not trying to get the ball past the heart of the defense, it's not as big of a red flag. But again, I think it's meant to be a shovel or scoop pass, and not a cross body throw. With the pressure and Minshew's height, it just wound up being a bad situation.

 

Edit: I see a lot of QBs doing things that they're coached to never do. One of those is turning your back to the LOS to escape pressure. I'd love to see a breakdown of how that works out for most passers.

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, stitches said:

It is easier said than done but not by much really. How often does this happen? Like... once or twice a year? In the whole league? This was just a freak outlier of an outcome. It's so rare you should probably not even consider this possibility when deciding whether to attempt 2 pt or not. In fact... I wonder what's more frequent - 2 pt attempt returned for TD or 1 point attempt blocked and returned for a TD? 

 

Our offense seems to be one of the most heavily schemed offenses in the league right now. Steichen is doing wonders with what Minshew is providing us as play. I read some stat that the Colts are running RPOs at the highest clip in the league by some huge margin over the second highest(24% vs 19%).. I've been thinking for a while that teams should run RPOs and playaction much more than they usually do. No idea why they are not trying to do it more, even when they have good QBs. And I'm glad Steichen is actually one of the coaches that seems to be using what league-wide is much more efficient play than a regular dropback. 

 

Yeah, definitely a fluky outcome. I'm probably taking that play out of the gameplan for now.

 

The offense is definitely heavily schemed. I wonder how Steichen will adapt as time goes on -- is he super controlling, or is this his strategy to squeeze out as much as he can from a limited QB/roster? 

 

We do pretty well with RPOs, but it makes sense to simplify the QB's reads. It's also led to some ineligible man downfield penalties, but that goes with the territory. Everyone knows I think play action is underutilized; I know there's a point where there are diminishing returns with each QB, but I don't know if any team has really pushed the envelope to see how much you can really get out of a play action heavy passing attack. 

 

Do you have a source for the RPO stat? I've been using PFR but I don't know if they're accurate, their numbers seem low. 

[jvan1973]

20 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Throwing across the body is a no-no, but that's mostly applicable to throws over the middle of the field. For a shorter pass that's meant to be caught behind the LOS, not trying to get the ball past the heart of the defense, it's not as big of a red flag. But again, I think it's meant to be a shovel or scoop pass, and not a cross body throw. With the pressure and Minshew's height, it just wound up being a bad situation.

 

Edit: I see a lot of QBs doing things that they're coached to never do. One of those is turning your back to the LOS to escape pressure. I'd love to see a breakdown of how that works out for most passers.

It didn't help moss tripped a bit and probably lost focus on the ball for a split second.   

[stitches]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, definitely a fluky outcome. I'm probably taking that play out of the gameplan for now.

 

The offense is definitely heavily schemed. I wonder how Steichen will adapt as time goes on -- is he super controlling, or is this his strategy to squeeze out as much as he can from a limited QB/roster? 

 

We do pretty well with RPOs, but it makes sense to simplify the QB's reads. It's also led to some ineligible man downfield penalties, but that goes with the territory. Everyone knows I think play action is underutilized; I know there's a point where there are diminishing returns with each QB, but I don't know if any team has really pushed the envelope to see how much you can really get out of a play action heavy passing attack. 

 

Do you have a source for the RPO stat? I've been using PFR but I don't know if they're accurate, their numbers seem low. 

I think I actually heard it in a podcast last week - The Athletic football show but not sure what episode it was. Let me check and will get back to you when I find it. I don't know where they are getting their numbers...