PFF 2020 NFL Two-Round Mock Draft - Colts get a QB

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

We'll see how the combine shakes out.  There are ways to measure arm strength in terms of velocity, rotation, and even simulated practice.  If we draft him, then he must have passed the tests.  There is a reasonable chance he passes the tests.  I'm not advocating any QB, or dispensing any QB.

My money is we don't draft him.... I looked at a few of his draft profiles this morning. Here's 5 reviews. All say "no juice".

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/jake-fromm/ZWU1pttLiq

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Having said that, a noodle arm is better than a gunslinger who gets intercepted by pretending to be Mahomes, although both weaknesses should be considered materially significant enough to place the term HARD PASS on both QBs equally at any draft slot.

A gunslinger is only bad if they are inaccurate or don't take coaching. A noodle arm will always be a noodle arm. 

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Cager is a good college WR, but he's projected to go in the 5th round...thought of as too slow for the NFL.  The other WRs will be playing mainly after Fromm is gone. 

They all played this last year. Cager is a big 6-5 possession guy. He also improved his 40 from 4.7ish to 4.5s, so I expect him to test decently at the combine. Cager is also the least talented of the 4 I listed. Even if he goes 5th round this year, that's like 3rd round any other year given the depth. The other three WRs listed were top 5 nationally. In short, Fromm had one of the best WRing groups on paper in the nation. He just doesn't pass a lot, so you don't here about them.

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

No WR in Fromm's 1st three years at UGA has yet to have much NFL game play.  That's on UGA and Smart, not Fromm, and is a cohort that negatively impacts Fromm's performance.  OTOH, Tua and Burrow have both accumulated stats while playing with NFL receivers...even multiple NFL quality receivers at the same time.

It's on Fromm too. He's incapable of being Burrow like, even with having 3 top 5 nationally ranked WRs. 

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

UGAs oline is stout.  A smart QB would stay in that pocket for as long as possible, and not try to look like Mahomes at the first opportunity.  JMO.

Burrow would have killed it behind that line. Fields would have killed it behind that line. Fromm GM'd behind that line.

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Not advocating for Fromm, but certainly not dis-advocating for him either.  The latter started months ago before he was even looked at much, IMO.  If he's drafted, then I'd readily say that Ballard made the right choice.  If not, then Fromm has too many questions.

Ballard won't draft him, but if he did, that wouldn't mean it's the right decision. It would only be the right decision if he was successful. 

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Dude, Demetrius Robertson... I traded for him in a league with a devy, and I S*** you not, dude transferred like a week later from Cali.  thankfully I didn't give up much.

 

I was concerned because UG's scheme is run and think about the pass.  Such a good prospect and UG was about the worst place he could've transferred to if his aspirations were getting drafted high.  I hear that they brought in a new OC Coordinator, something Monken, who's more predicated on the pass.  So hopefully he can salvage that dominant 4 WR lineup.  Cuz it's going to waste the way they've been doing business.

Putting a good WR on a team with a GM QB and run first scheme is such a waste. That's one reason why I think it's foolish to go early on a WR if we plan on keeping JB. UGA has had some good WR recruits over the years, and some very low ceiling QBs. The years with Fromm were painful to UGA fans. As far of Robertson and Cager are concerned, ND recruited both, and I wanted both badly. They would have done much better at ND than with Fromm. I was a bit surprised both transferred back to UGA (Cager from Miami).

 

3 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

 

Following Robertson has caused me to notice Brian Herrien who I think could be a gem in this draft.  Looks like a good back (maybe a tad sluggish, but then has moments where he shows an explosive side.  Not sure which is the real Herrien,, but people talking like he's a UDFA.  If he tests well, I think I want him on the Colts.  He didn't get a ton of playing time because been there 3-4 years he's had to contend with Chubb, Michel, Swift, Holyfield, Zamir, Cook.  Like getting time at RB on taht roster?  Dude was surrounded by 4/5 star (most of them top 10 in their respective classes), and yet he still managed to see sizable playing time.  Never a first choice, but he shined often enough that I think he could very easily take a short yardage role (with upside as a pass catcher, not sure about blocking though) with the Colts.

Not a huge fan of Herrien. His running motion is kinda strange/awkward. He's a good blocker though. Maybe a PS project.

[OffensivelyPC]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

I don't disagree with your theory, but there is not enough information to say that Fromm cannot recognize and hit targets all over the field, (just the opposite in fact) or that he lacks long ball prowess to the degree that it would make defenses not even defend the whole field. 

 

I think that's the part of looking at Fromm that is exaggerated, IMO. 

 

He's more than capable of executing a play action pass to the deep middle.  He may not be the guy to rely upon throwing a steady diet of deep outs, deep hooks, and deep comebacks to the outside, but I haven't noticed as much of those patterns under Reich as I did with Chud and Tom Moore/PM.

To the bolded, when I was able to see the whole field, I noticed several such routes, JB just didn't throw them often, and even when he went deep, it was the vertical routes.  I can't say that's a season long evaluation because everything else I saw was on the TV and those routes are not usually shown, so I don't know.  But even if we didn't run them a ton, it's hard to know how much of that is because of JB.  I dunno, and I wo'nt guess.

 

With Fromm, not just talking aout the long ball.  But even the throws that he has to muscle in or throw on a rope.  They look like the little engine that could.  It'll get there eventually, but is someone else going to beat the receiver there?  Throwing windows get smaller in the NFL and even smaller in the redzone.  

 

I'm just not much of a Fromm fan I guess.  I'm not looking for QBs shooting lazer guns attached to their shoulders, but I think Fromm is bottom of the barrell when we're talking as to the types of throws he'll be able to make at the next level (accuracy aside).

[stitches]

7 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

To the bolded, when I was able to see the whole field, I noticed several such routes, JB just didn't throw them often, and even when he went deep, it was the vertical routes.  I can't say that's a season long evaluation because everything else I saw was on the TV and those routes are not usually shown, so I don't know.  But even if we didn't run them a ton, it's hard to know how much of that is because of JB.  I dunno, and I wo'nt guess.

 

With Fromm, not just talking aout the long ball.  But even the throws that he has to muscle in or throw on a rope.  They look like the little engine that could.  It'll get there eventually, but is someone else going to beat the receiver there?  Throwing windows get smaller in the NFL and even smaller in the redzone.  

 

I'm just not much of a Fromm fan I guess.  I'm not looking for QBs shooting lazer guns attached to their shoulders, but I think Fromm is bottom of the barrell when we're talking as to the types of throws he'll be able to make at the next level (accuracy aside).

From what I've seen Jacoby was throwing most of the deep routes late because of his lack of anticipation and timing on his throws. This is part of the reason it looked like they were thrown into double coverage a lot of the time(defenders just had time to catch up with the target after he made his break) and part of the reason he drew several pass interference calls - because the receiver had to wait for it and got blown out by the DBs. 

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

With Fromm, not just talking aout the long ball.  But even the throws that he has to muscle in or throw on a rope.  They look like the little engine that could.  It'll get there eventually, but is someone else going to beat the receiver there?  Throwing windows get smaller in the NFL and even smaller in the redzone.  

 

I'm just not much of a Fromm fan I guess.  I'm not looking for QBs shooting lazer guns attached to their shoulders, but I think Fromm is bottom of the barrell when we're talking as to the types of throws he'll be able to make at the next level (accuracy aside).

[DougDew]

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

My money is we don't draft him.... I looked at a few of his draft profiles this morning. Here's 5 reviews. All say "no juice".

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/jake-fromm/ZWU1pttLiq

A gunslinger is only bad if they are inaccurate or don't take coaching. A noodle arm will always be a noodle arm. 

They all played this last year. Cager is a big 6-5 possession guy. He also improved his 40 from 4.7ish to 4.5s, so I expect him to test decently at the combine. Cager is also the least talented of the 4 I listed. Even if he goes 5th round this year, that's like 3rd round any other year given the depth. The other three WRs listed were top 5 nationally. In short, Fromm had one of the best WRing groups on paper in the nation. He just doesn't pass a lot, so you don't here about them.

It's on Fromm too. He's incapable of being Burrow like, even with having 3 top 5 nationally ranked WRs. 

Burrow would have killed it behind that line. Fields would have killed it behind that line. Fromm GM'd behind that line.

Ballard won't draft him, but if he did, that wouldn't mean it's the right decision. It would only be the right decision if he was successful. 

I don't know why you are compelled to argue so definitively about a college QB you really know nothing about, and make the same points.  Its what the combine and the bowl games are for.  We'll see how it goes.  And we'll see where he is drafted.

 

 

[Stephen]

On 2/11/2020 at 12:30 PM, EastStreet said:

Fromm is about the last QB I want....

Better fromm than hurts

[EastStreet]

Just now, DougDew said:

I don't know why you are compelled to argue so definitively about a college QB you really know nothing about, and make the same points.  Its what the combine and the bowl games are for.  We'll see how it goes.  And we'll see where he is drafted.

I live in GA. I watch a lot of UGA games and have been between the hedges a bunch. I've been in Athens a couple dozen times in the last ten years.... I know more than most. And most of my friends are UGA fans, so I hear a ton too. 

 

Most of the "experts" say the opposite of what you've said, so not sure why you are on the Fromm defense team...

 

 

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Better fromm than hurts

That's a close one. Wouldn't want either.....  If forced, I think I'd rather have Hurts. Fromm won't lose you many games, but he won't win many either. Hurts can at least extend plays and is a dual threat. 

[Stephen]

9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

That's a close one. Wouldn't want either.....  If forced, I think I'd rather have Hurts. Fromm won't lose you many games, but he won't win many either. Hurts can at least extend plays and is a dual threat. 

Not a fan of hurts passing attack.  Needs work there.

[EastStreet]

6 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Not a fan of hurts passing attack.  Needs work there.

Agreed. I do think he has more upside than Fromm though. You could possibly develop him. You'd have to give Fromm steroids lol.

[DougDew]

3 hours ago, OffensivelyPC said:

To the bolded, when I was able to see the whole field, I noticed several such routes, JB just didn't throw them often, and even when he went deep, it was the vertical routes.  I can't say that's a season long evaluation because everything else I saw was on the TV and those routes are not usually shown, so I don't know.  But even if we didn't run them a ton, it's hard to know how much of that is because of JB.  I dunno, and I wo'nt guess.

 

With Fromm, not just talking aout the long ball.  But even the throws that he has to muscle in or throw on a rope.  They look like the little engine that could.  It'll get there eventually, but is someone else going to beat the receiver there?  Throwing windows get smaller in the NFL and even smaller in the redzone.  

 

I'm just not much of a Fromm fan I guess.  I'm not looking for QBs shooting lazer guns attached to their shoulders, but I think Fromm is bottom of the barrell when we're talking as to the types of throws he'll be able to make at the next level (accuracy aside).

I think you look at Philly.  Wentz has more of the stronger arm than Foles for sure.  Those patterns simply seem to not be as much of a pillar as they were in a Chud offense, notably because they take longer to develop.  Their importance was sort of phjased out when we made the coaching change to Reich, IMO.

 

And the entire point of hiring Reich was to shorten the release time.  Reichs O is more quick release, and by its nature would have to emphasize short patterns.  Long ball is occasional, not a staple.

 

I think many can't grasp that, or don't like it.

 

And I don't care who the Qb is.  Trying to throw a pass into a tight window with air yards in excess of 15 is a risk of a pick.  That type of QB centric hero ball is exactly what I would not want to have if I was building a balanced roster where my Qb was a component thereof.

 

To me, its more about what I want the QB to do within the confines of the O, not what he might do occasionally outside of the O.  I don't know if Fromm has those tools until he's evaluated, but the criteria by which many of these college Qbs are being evaluated is simply borderline irrelevant, IMO.

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Agreed. I do think he has more upside than Fromm though. You could possibly develop him. You'd have to give Fromm steroids lol.

That's hyperbole.  Fromm is stronger than Gordon, and stouter/stockier than Love.  Love is taller, but narrower, built like a WR, like Tannehill, and Tanneyhill was let go from MIA because of nagging injury history.  Gordon and Love are more likely to need the roids if they are going to stay in the NFL.  A bit heavier than Bridgewater, but not much. 

[EastStreet]

3 hours ago, DougDew said:

That's hyperbole.  Fromm is stronger than Gordon, and stouter/stockier than Love.  Love is taller, but narrower, built like a WR, like Tannehill, and Tanneyhill was let go from MIA because of nagging injury history.  Gordon and Love are more likely to need the roids if they are going to stay in the NFL.  A bit heavier than Bridgewater, but not much. 

LOL.. come on man, you're reaching..... Some of the stuff from you.... Mahomes was 6-3, 225 when he came into the league. Love is 6-4, 225. Did Mahomes need roids? 

 

Tannehill was let go from Miami because Miami stunk, had no OL or pass catchers,

Tannehill was used poorly, and couldn't overcome how bad the supporting cast was. He's now used properly, has a better surrounding cast, and is doing much better. You can't ignore the immediate turnaround he's had since leaving Miami.

 

On Gordon, while he doesn't have a cannon, he can toss the deep ball pretty well when his mechanics are good (back foot). See Crabb's review.... He doesn't have a cannon, but less noodle than Fromm. He has far more arm talent than Fromm, just riskier, which is a product of the air raid system he came from.