Mannings Actual Cap Hit

[Shepman]

This is my understanding so please correct me (flame me if it boosts your ego) if I am wrong. Cutting Manning will have an ~$10 mil cap hit to us this year and retaining him will add an additional ~$7 mil cap hit not the $28 mil. Let's just say physically he is greater than 90% healed come midnight March 8th. Would it be worth the ~$7 mil for him to go through training camp with our number 1 pick QB and teach him the ropes while rehabbing? Come preseason if Manning is still healing you give our new guy a few starts and give Manning some playing time to gauge his progress at full game speed.

[UndecidedFrog]

This is my understanding so please correct me (flame me if it boosts your ego) if I am wrong. Cutting Manning will have an ~$10 mil cap hit to us this year and retaining him will add an additional ~$7 mil cap hit not the $28 mil. Let's just say physically he is greater than 90% healed come midnight March 8th. Would it be worth the ~$7 mil for him to go through training camp with our number 1 pick QB and teach him the ropes while rehabbing? Come preseason if Manning is still healing you give our new guy a few starts and give Manning some playing time to gauge his progress at full game speed.

No flaming necessary.

Cutting Manning this year and not paying the $28MM option bonus will give the Colts a $10.4 MM cap hit for 2012.

Cutting Manning this year before June 1, after paying him the $28MM option bonus will give the Colts a $38.4MM cap hit in 2012.

Retaining Manning for the 2012 season will mean paying him the option bonus in March of $28MM, and the salary for 2012 of $7.4MM, which translates to a cap hit of $17MM for 2012.

If you retain Manning for the entire 2012 season, then cut him right after, the cap hit are $17MM for 2012 and $28.8MM for 2013.

If you retain Manning for the entire 2012 and 2013 seasons, then cut him right after, the cap hit are $17MM for 2012 and $18MM for 2013 and $19.2MM for 2014.

If you retain Manning for the entire 2012 and 2013and 2014 seasons, then cut him right after, the cap hit are $17MM for 2012 and $18MM for 2013 and $19MM for 2014 and $9.6MM for 2015.

If you retain Manning for the entire term of his contract, through the 2015 season, then the cap hits are $17MM for 2012 and $18MM for 2013 and $19MM for 2014 and $20MM for 2015.

Unless you pay Manning throughout the entire term of the contract, the pro-rated portions not already amortized of this 2011 bonus of $20MM, and the 2012 bonus of $28MM all accelerate to hit the cap at the time of earlier than full-term release.

Under your scenario, the difference is not $7MM to the cap. The difference is between $10.4MM to the 2012 cap vs.$17MM to the 2012 cap + $28.8MM to the 2013 cap.

[Smonroe]

Irsay has continually said it's not about the money, it's about his health. I'll believe him until he outright lies to us.

So, I'm not concerned with the cap hit, or how much it will cost Irsay to keep him. If he's healthy and he's kept, the accountants will find a way to make cap space to field a decent team. They'll restructure his contract, as well as Freeney's.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Irsay has continually said it's not about the money, it's about his health. I'll believe him until he outright lies to us.

So, I'm not concerned with the cap hit, or how much it will cost Irsay to keep him. If he's healthy and he's kept, the accountants will find a way to make cap space to field a decent team. They'll restructure his contract, as well as Freeney's.

That is the thing. If the bonus is paid, he has to play the majority of his contract or there will be cap ramifications. Not to mention the tremendous amount of cash that will have been paid to the quarterback position.

With so many other needs it's not feasible to keep both Manning & Luck. Hopefully Irsay understands that.

[UndecidedFrog]

That is the thing. If the bonus is paid, he has to play the majority of his contract or there will be cap ramifications. Not to mention the tremendous amount of cash that will have been paid to the quarterback position.

With so many other needs it's not feasible to keep both Manning & Luck. Hopefully Irsay understands that.

I am sure his business accountants/corporate finance staff will make him understand.

[Coffeedrinker]

That is the thing. If the bonus is paid, he has to play the majority of his contract or there will be cap ramifications. Not to mention the tremendous amount of cash that will have been paid to the quarterback position.

With so many other needs it's not feasible to keep both Manning & Luck. Hopefully Irsay understands that.

Why? Luck's cap hit will be pretty minimal for the first couple of years.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Why? Luck's cap hit will be pretty minimal for the first couple of years.

What exactly are you asking?

Why is not feasible?

Year QB Cap Hit Salary Cap % onQB
2011  $19,831,311.00   $120,000,000.00  16.5%
2012  $22,867,475.00   $121,200,000.00  18.9%
2013  $23,660,941.95   $122,412,000.00  19.3%
2014  $25,727,158.90   $134,653,200.00  19.1%
2015  $27,793,375.85   $137,346,264.00  20.2%

Based on Luck getting a 5% increase across the board to the signing bonus/base salaries Cam Newton had, a 1% increase of the salary cap between 2011,2012, 2013, a 10% bump in 2014 due to the tv contracts and a 2% bump in 2015.

Cash paid to the Quarterback position from 2011-2012

2011 $31,458,561.00
2012 $51,602,650.00
2013 $10,249,966.95
2014 $12,316,183.90
2015 $14,382,400.85
Total $120,009,762.70

Both sets of #'s include the actual cap hits for Manning if the bonus is picked up, Collins, Painter(if he's cut this season), Orlovsky, and a 3rd stringer making the league minimum. It also assumes that Manning is on the roster for the full 5 years of his original contract.

Does that help?

[Coffeedrinker]

Like I said, Luck's cap hit is pretty minimal for the first couple of years. It is completely feasible to have both Manning and Luck. May not be practical but's feasible.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Like I said, Luck's cap hit is pretty minimal for the first couple of years. It is completely feasible to have both Manning and Luck. May not be practical but's feasible.

I guess we have different views on how the term feasible is defined. Because there is nothing easy about my previous post.

It seems the term you might want to use is possible.

Yes it's possible, but most certainly it is not feasible.

[Meltdown]

What exactly are you asking?

Why is not feasible?

Year QB Cap Hit Salary Cap % onQB
2011  $19,831,311.00   $120,000,000.00  16.5%
2012  $22,867,475.00   $121,200,000.00  18.9%
2013  $23,660,941.95   $122,412,000.00  19.3%
2014  $25,727,158.90   $134,653,200.00  19.1%
2015  $27,793,375.85   $137,346,264.00  20.2%

Based on Luck getting a 5% increase across the board to the signing bonus/base salaries Cam Newton had, a 1% increase of the salary cap between 2011,2012, 2013, a 10% bump in 2014 due to the tv contracts and a 2% bump in 2015.

Cash paid to the Quarterback position from 2011-2012

2011 $31,458,561.00
2012 $51,602,650.00
2013 $10,249,966.95
2014 $12,316,183.90
2015 $14,382,400.85
Total $120,009,762.70

Both sets of #'s include the actual cap hits for Manning if the bonus is picked up, Collins, Painter(if he's cut this season), Orlovsky, and a 3rd stringer making the league minimum. It also assumes that Manning is on the roster for the full 5 years of his original contract.

Does that help?

If you want to know the cap seek out the frog or fireJim. They seem to be on top of it at all times.

Nice guys, this put it all into perspective for me.

[Coffeedrinker]

I guess we have different views on how the term feasible is defined. Because there is nothing easy about my previous post.

Feasible is defined as capable of being done. I know you are using the lesser known and used definition, "probable." And I would say that if Manning is healthy the idea of Manning and Luck is still feasible using your definition.

It seems the term you might want to use is possible.

No, feasible works just fine but thanks for your concern.

And in all seriousness, thanks for the break down.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Feasible is defined as capable of being done. I know you are using the lesser known and used definition, "probable." And I would say that if Manning is healthy the idea of Manning and Luck is still feasible using your definition.

No, feasible works just fine but thanks for your concern.

And in all seriousness, thanks for the break down.

No i'm using it as being done easily or conveniently, which I most certainly do not see any form of those #'s as easy or convenient.

​The only way I would consider probable would be basing it off of Irsay's comments, combined with Manning being healthy, and then I would agree that it probably is the direction we would go but that again wouldn't make it easy or convenient.

You're welcome.

[MAC]

I guess we have different views on how the term feasible is defined. Because there is nothing easy about my previous post.

It seems the term you might want to use is possible.

Yes it's possible, but most certainly it is not feasible.

I think the cash outlay itself is irrelevant. They'll come up with the funds if they need to. Therefore Luck's bonus is irrelevant - it's only his cap hit that matters, and that's no more than a good vet backup's would be. This is about Peytons' health and his cap hit. And if his cap hit wasn't feasible or possible they wouldn't have given him the contract in the first place. The cap hits in his earlier years weren't so fantastic either. Of course it's not feasible to WASTE that kind of money on someone who can't play - but there isn't a team in the league who wouldn't jump at the chance for this kind of "problem" if Peyton is still playing at an MVP level. So what would you do if he is healthy? This all comes down to his health, and if his health is in question when bonus day comes, it will come down to Irsay's tollerance for risk. But I would view keeping both as entirely possible AND feasible.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I think the cash outlay itself is irrelevant. They'll come up with the funds if they need to. Therefore Luck's bonus is irrelevant - it's only his cap hit that matters, and that's no more than a good vet backup's would be. This is about Peytons' health and his cap hit. And if his cap hit wasn't feasible or possible they wouldn't have given him the contract in the first place. The cap hits in his earlier years weren't so fantastic either. Of course it's not feasible to WASTE that kind of money on someone who can't play - but there isn't a team in the league who wouldn't jump at the chance for this kind of "problem" if Peyton is still playing at an MVP level. So what would you do if he is healthy? This all comes down to his health, and if his health is in question when bonus day comes, it will come down to Irsay's tollerance for risk. But I would view keeping both as entirely possible AND feasible.

If the QB position was the only position on the team that had major questions marks about 2012, I would wholeheartedly agree with that.

Look at the # of guys that will have their hand out. WR is a huge question mark. The defensive line at this is a huge question mark. Tight end.

If I remove the $ from the equation, I still do not see it as the best situation for Manning or for Luck. Luck needs to play from day 1. Manning needs to play if healthy.

Luck's cap hits will be similar to this:
2012 $4,204,725.00
2013 $5,255,941.95
2014 $6,307,158.90
2015 $7,358,375.85

I doubt there is a team in the NFL that spends anything close to that on a true backup QB.

Again, paying them both is possible(most likely it might take some creative cap management and some roster trimming), but there is nothing in the world that will make me agree that it will be easy or convenient, which is how I define feasible.

[ace_6900]

What exactly are you asking?

Why is not feasible?

Year QB Cap Hit Salary Cap % onQB
2011  $19,831,311.00   $120,000,000.00  16.5%
2012  $22,867,475.00   $121,200,000.00  18.9%
2013  $23,660,941.95   $122,412,000.00  19.3%
2014  $25,727,158.90   $134,653,200.00  19.1%
2015  $27,793,375.85   $137,346,264.00  20.2%

Based on Luck getting a 5% increase across the board to the signing bonus/base salaries Cam Newton had, a 1% increase of the salary cap between 2011,2012, 2013, a 10% bump in 2014 due to the tv contracts and a 2% bump in 2015.

Cash paid to the Quarterback position from 2011-2012

2011 $31,458,561.00
2012 $51,602,650.00
2013 $10,249,966.95
2014 $12,316,183.90
2015 $14,382,400.85
Total $120,009,762.70

Both sets of #'s include the actual cap hits for Manning if the bonus is picked up, Collins, Painter(if he's cut this season), Orlovsky, and a 3rd stringer making the league minimum. It also assumes that Manning is on the roster for the full 5 years of his original contract.

Does that help?

Unfortuneately the cap hit is a big problem but i do believe the contract will be restructured if Irsay gives PM the 29 million bonus. Maybe i am just being optimistic.

[UndecidedFrog]

But I would view keeping both as entirely possible AND feasible.

From looking at the numbers, I see it as a big problem to keep both while attempting to rebuild a team. Keeping Peyton sucks up a lot of available cash and cap space that could be better used elsewhere since only one QB will be on the field at any one time. Luck/RG3 does not significantly use up cash or cap space for the next 5 years because of the CBA ceiling.

In my view, I see it as a choice for management between:

a) Keeping Peyton and working within the limitations of cash and cap space that means for the next 4 years, or

b) Releasing Peyton, and have more flexibility in terms of cash and cap space to rebuild the team faster (to say nothing about giving Luck/RG3 real live game experience, so necessary to develop rookie QBs to be successful in the meantime)

Of course, Peyton's health issues overlay these options, that could either make them moot or complicate decisions.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Unfortuneately the cap hit is a big problem but i do believe the contract will be restructured if Irsay gives PM the 29 million bonus. Maybe i am just being optimistic.

There is only so much a restructure at that point can do. Paying the 28 million option bonus, sets up the cap penalties if for whatever reason he's cut, traded, retires, etc.

He could restructure his base salaries to lower them, which would either a ) be giving money away b ) be viewed as buying some form of concession like a no trade clause, or an agreement to what teams he would consider or something similar.

Once the option bonus is paid, the negative cap ramifications are set in stone. If x happens, then it's a penalty of $x.

[oldunclemark]

Irsay has continually said it's not about the money, it's about his health. I'll believe him until he outright lies to us.

So, I'm not concerned with the cap hit, or how much it will cost Irsay to keep him. If he's healthy and he's kept, the accountants will find a way to make cap space to field a decent team. They'll restructure his contract, as well as Freeney's.

I agree with you....I would suggest that $15 million is not a large cap hit for a veteran QB...

there's no question in my mind that we can afford him in 'real dollars' and cap hit dollars..as Mr. Irsay suggests.

..and there seems to now be a realsitic scenario that since we do not know Manning's condition and it is so variable

..that we might pay Manning his bonus...draft Luck....let the June 1 deadline pass and count down to the season with both...

I just dont see Jim Irsay cutting Peyton Manning before we know his condition (we wont know on March 8) and paying $12 mil to do it..

That's not smart for Irsay or the franchise.

Irsay will pay $35 mil on the chance..take the $17 mil cap hit..and gamnbel on Peyton's recivery...

A question..and you seem to know...what was the 'cap hit' on Manning's contract in 2011?

[UndecidedFrog]

Peyton's current contract (all $MM):

2011 year $26.4 real dollars, and $16 cap hit

2012 year $35.4 real dollars, and $17 cap hit

2013 year $8.4 real dollars, and $18 cap hit

2014 year $9.4 real dollars and $19 cap hit

2015 year $10.4 real dollars and $20 cap hit

Totals for real dollars = $90

Totals for cap hits = $90

A question..and you seem to know...what was the 'cap hit' on Manning's contract in 2011?

If Irsay does not pay the $28 on March 8 this year by releasing Manning, the cap hit in 2012 will be $10.4

The cap hit for 2011 was $16.

[ace_6900]

That is the thing. If the bonus is paid, he has to play the majority of his contract or there will be cap ramifications. Not to mention the tremendous amount of cash that will have been paid to the quarterback position.

With so many other needs it's not feasible to keep both Manning & Luck. Hopefully Irsay understands that.

do you know if we get a compensation pick for sessions leaving and if we do what is it

?

[FireJimCaldwell]

Peyton's current contract (all $MM):

2011 year $26.4 real dollars, and $16 cap hit

2012 year $35.4 real dollars, and $17 cap hit

2013 year $8.4 real dollars, and $18 cap hit

2014 year $9.4 real dollars and $19 cap hit

2015 year $10.4 real dollars and $20 cap hit

Totals for real dollars = $90

Totals for cap hits = $90

If Irsay does not pay the $28 on March 8 this year by releasing Manning, the cap hit in 2012 will be $10.4

The cap hit for 2011 was $16.

Good luck with that one...

[FireJimCaldwell]

do you know if we get a compensation pick for sessions leaving and if we do what is it

?

I've seen it predicted for Sessions and Johnson we will get a 4 & 6 respectively but nothing official has been announced.

[ace_6900]

I've seen it predicted for Sessions and Johnson we will get a 4 & 6 respectively but nothing official has been announced.

about the same as what superman said he says 4 and 5 do you know how it is determined?

[FireJimCaldwell]

about the same as what superman said he says 4 and 5 do you know how it is determined?

They use a formula...

This website is where i saw the prediction and they seem to have a pretty good grasp on it.

http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2012/1/6/2686334/2012-compensatory-draft-pick-predictions

[ace_6900]

They use a formula...

This website is where i saw the prediction and they seem to have a pretty good grasp on it.

http://www.mockingth...ick-predictions

ty will check it out right now darn i sure thought we would get a 3 for sessions