I Just Feel Like What I Think Needs To Be Heard.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Thanks. So cap hit is 10.4 for 2012. Draw up a contract that pays him an additional 6 million for 2012 and then 16 million for the next two years. That can be done, correct? I guess my point is, it is not either eat the huge bonus and contract or cut him? There has to be other options.

Right now it's pick up the bonus, and the contract plays out

Cap hits of
$17,000,000.00  2012
$18,000,000.00  2013
$19,000,000.00  2014
$20,000,000.00  2015

Or cut him

Have a 10.4 million acceleration and try to work a new deal out... or he goes to another team, or retires.

Either way it is going to be complicated and not ideal to have him and Luck on the same team from a salary cap & cash point of view.

[doogansquest]

There are no reports suggesting Manning will be leaving.

There are no indications he is leaving.

There are only people in the media talking - just talking, with no credible sources, rumors, or statements. Pure, 100% speculation for the point of starting a conversation about the subject.

[Jules]

There are no reports suggesting Manning will be leaving.

There are no indications he is leaving.

There are only people in the media talking - just talking, with no credible sources, rumors, or statements. Pure, 100% speculation for the point of starting a conversation about the subject.

I hope you hide all sharp objects and shoe laces for the next few months.

[Warhorse]

I hope you hide all sharp objects and shoe laces for the next few months.

I think he will be quite fine. He is simply using one sharp object right now...his brain. We now have been told by Irsay that he made the decision to rework the franchise from the top earlier in the year. No....the media didn't know that, yet he surprised us all. Then...because he retained Caldwell, everybody and their freakin dog just knew that meant we were staying with Caldwell. They were wrong. Then, CC was retained as OC and everyone knew that was not changing. And now we have a new OC.

We may have seen the last of PM in a Colts...or any uni. But considering the track record of fans and the media's guesses, I'll stick with the comment by our owner that a healthy PM will be a Colt.

[Jules]

I think he will be quite fine. He is simply using one sharp object right now...his brain. We now have been told by Irsay that he made the decision to rework the franchise from the top earlier in the year. No....the media didn't know that, yet he surprised us all. Then...because he retained Caldwell, everybody and their freakin dog just knew that meant we were staying with Caldwell. They were wrong. Then, CC was retained as OC and everyone knew that was not changing. And now we have a new OC.

We may have seen the last of PM in a Colts...or any uni. But considering the track record of fans and the media's guesses, I'll stick with the comment by our owner that a healthy PM will be a Colt.

No. I felt eventually once the new gm got here and got settled that Caldwell was gone. There was no logical reason to keep the guy.

And to me this team is in rebuilding mode unless I am 100% missing out on things. I think it actually at this point would be the wrong move to keep Manning as bad as it is to say out loud. At times we have to put emotion aside. We all love Peyton. But, it's the right decision I think to move on now.

[PolkHigh33]

If you pay Peyton the option bonus of $28MM on March 8, and you cut him prior to June 1:

2012 the dead cap space to the team will be $38.4MM, or 32% of the total salary cap for the team.

2013 the dead cap space to the team will be $28.8MM, or 24% of the total salary cap for the team.

2014 the dead cap space to the team will be $19.2MM, or 16% of the total salary cap for the team. (I goosed the salary cap by 10% in anticipation of additional TV revs)

2015 the dead cap space to the team will be $9.6MM, or 8% of the total salary cap for the team.

If this is true then I really do not understand why Peyton let Condon make such a contract. If he really wanted to stay in Indy he should have made a contract that is more backloaded (if this is the right term) and that would have allowed the Colts to do some kind of "gamble" the first two years. Absolutely not understandable for me, especially taking into consideration that Peyton gave the impression of not wanting as much money as Irsay was willing to spend. Very disappointing :sadno:

[braveheartcolt]

No. I felt eventually once the new gm got here and got settled that Caldwell was gone. There was no logical reason to keep the guy.

And to me this team is in rebuilding mode unless I am 100% missing out on things. I think it actually at this point would be the wrong move to keep Manning as bad as it is to say out loud. At times we have to put emotion aside. We all love Peyton. But, it's the right decision I think to move on now.

Tough, but I agree. Then I watch some old games, and think he must stay. I've now given up thinking or hoping. I'll take whatever they do and live with it, although his health will probably make it an easy decision in the end.

[FireJimCaldwell]

If this is true then I really do not understand why Peyton let Condon make such a contract. If he really wanted to stay in Indy he should have made a contract that is more backloaded (if this is the right term) and that would have allowed the Colts to do some kind of "gamble" the first two years. Absolutely not understandable for me, especially taking into consideration that Peyton gave the impression of not wanting as much money as Irsay was willing to spend. Very disappointing :sadno:

It was created that way to give the team an out, if he wasn't healthy. If he would have received his signing bonus and option bonus as one signing bonus payment, we would be in a far worse predicament than we are if he's unable to continue(10.4 million cap if he's released vs. a 38.4 cap hit if it would have one single 48 million signing bonus). A back-loaded contract likely wouldn't have been able to give the Colts the ability to be protected. A lot of that would have been dependent upon the signing bonus. Anything over 20, and we are in a worse spot. Anything under it and you start having limits on where cap savings can be found.

To do a gamble for the first two years, then the signing bonus would have been larger, and the option bonus likely lower and coming next year. If we keep the 48 total in mind but adjust it to 30 & 18 not picking up the bonus would have created a higher acceleration in 2012.

The only part that the Manning/Condon might not have perceived happening was the 2-14 and in line for the #1 pick. If we were say 6-10, or 5-11, and the health is the same way, then Irsay/Polian or Irsay/Grigson would have had to considered being on the giving end of an absurd draft package to move up to #1, which if Manning might be able to return, might not be as attractive as falling into the #1 spot.

Again, if any blame wants to be placed on the contract, I feel more has to be placed on Irsay/Polian than it does on Manning/Condon. Irsay's insistence on making him the highest paid or matching Brady's 18 million average is far more damaging than the structure that Manning suggested that does give the Colts and out if he's not where he needs to be.

[PolkHigh33]

@firejim:

Thanks for the explanation. To be honest: The whole cap system is not easy to understand as we do not have such thing here :-(

Everybody is talking about the 50 million Irsay would have to spend by keeping Peyton and drafting Luck. But only 30-something would go against the cap (if I understood it correctly). So I still wish Irsay will want go with both - even if Manning is only at 90% come March 8th (but has a more or less good prospect).

In the end it is correct that it is always easy to spend someone's else money. But I also think that it is not all business out there. I already told my wife that I will come over if Peyton is able to play another game for the Colts so that I could always say that I have seen him playing live at least once in my life. Doesn't look too good I guess

[WoolMagnet]

I am a huge Manning fan, but a bigger Colts. So hear me out. I was born in '92 so I did not have to endure the bottom years most fans did. I have faint memories of Jim Harbaugh, but more vivid memories I have of those times is Tony Siragusa. I use to cheer for "the Goose." When I got older Peyton came to Indy, and I started to understand the game more. Peyton was my biggest hero, I use to mimic him in my backyard. I know every aspect of the game because of Peyton. There is no way that I believe one player is above a team though, even if it is Manning. I had to watch Sosa leave the Cubs.

We all know the 2012-13 season is a rebuilding year. I can probably say 100 percent guarantee no one believes the #1 pick, either it be Andrew Luck, RG3, or any other QB we see fit, will lead us to a Super Bowl next year. So the only chance of a Super Bowl next year is with Peyton.

A lot of reports and indications point towards Peyton getting pushed out the door. Do you not think Peyton gets a chance above and beyond? I mean he brought a Super Bowl to a franchise that was the laughing stock of the league for many, many years. Say we take a gamble, and pick up the bonus while using our #1 pick on a QB. If it doesn't work out we can cut him after this following season, or when Jim Irsay sits down with Peyton he should say "Peyton I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. You can be our guy if you are healthy. When the times comes though, and you aren't ready we need you to retire." The only chance we have of winning a Super Bowl in the next three-four years is with Peyton. This team will not win a Super Bowl with that #1 pick in the coming years. I'm not saying it is incapable of a young QB to win a Super Bowl, i.e. Brady and Roethlisberger, but the #1 is not going to inherit the Patriot defense or the Steeler defense. Yes, our defense is going to be revamped, and most likely be improved in the offseason. Is that not another reason for us to take a gamble with Peyton? For once he has a chance to play with a strong defense.

Well you can say if we take Peyton we could hault the progress of our #1. Well if it works out Peyton can go in 2012, and our #1 gets a phenomenal mentor. If it doesn't work out our #1 won't miss his rookie season anyway because Manning is incapable of playing.

So what I am basically saying is give Peyton the benefit of the doubt above and beyond. If it doesn't work out we absorb the cap hit during the "rebuilding year." We have until June 1st until Peyton's contract counts against us next year, 2013-14 season. If by that time Peyton is a no go he must retire, or we release him. He at least deserves the chance.

Ahhh, to be young and naive again.................

[ACollie17]

Both those teams had top ranked defenses.

If Pagano can pull a Wade Phillips in Houston (not that I'm expecting that) we could be a top rank defense with the right guys in there.

[TheLobeck]

So $38.4MM isn't worth a gamble in a "rebuilding year?" The Colts aren't going anywhere next season under a rookie QB. It just isn't going to happen.

Yeah I mean cmon guys it's just $38.4MM...

[ACollie17]

Hey look, I'm in high school. I became a Colts fan during the Manning era and I still believe it would be smartest to let him go. As said in the OP, Manning is my idol also. Any time my friends start talking about their Jets or Giants here in NY, I immediately bring up Peyton and the Colts lol. It would kill me to see PM go, but as Irsay had said, no one man is bigger than the Horseshoe. The cap hit would be astronomical and the future would be brighter with Luck (most likely) starting from day one.

[FireJimCaldwell]

@firejim:

Thanks for the explanation. To be honest: The whole cap system is not easy to understand as we do not have such thing here :-(

Everybody is talking about the 50 million Irsay would have to spend by keeping Peyton and drafting Luck. But only 30-something would go against the cap (if I understood it correctly). So I still wish Irsay will want go with both - even if Manning is only at 90% come March 8th (but has a more or less good prospect).

In the end it is correct that it is always easy to spend someone's else money. But I also think that it is not all business out there. I already told my wife that I will come over if Peyton is able to play another game for the Colts so that I could always say that I have seen him playing live at least once in my life. Doesn't look too good I guess

You're welcome.

The general concepts of the cap can be easier to understand with the more examples you see, just like anything. The more you do it the more you go from understanding it to knowing it.

Yeah it's easier to spend someone else's money.

The Cash alone of what we would have tied up in the QB position in 2011/2012 is scary

83 million when you total up Manning, Collins, Painter, Orlovsky, Luck & a QB 3.

Cap wise it's lower as it should be, but it is still putting a lot of money into a position where only one guy plays.

It would be nice to have Manning & Luck, I just don't know if it will happen. My gut tells me it will be one or another. No matter what happens there will be a portion of the fan base that is not satisfied.

[PolkHigh33]

The general concepts of the cap can be easier to understand with the more examples you see, just like anything. The more you do it the more you go from understanding it to knowing it.

Do you know where I can find a good (short) summary of the general concept of the cap system? Something explaining to amateurs like me the whole cap environment including all the different boni (signing, option, etc.) and their effect on the cap...

[FireJimCaldwell]

Do you know where I can find a good (short) summary of the general concept of the cap system? Something explaining to amateurs like me the whole cap environment including all the different boni (signing, option, etc.) and their effect on the cap...

That's a good question.. I'll have to see if there is a site that explains it in a decent way.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Do you know where I can find a good (short) summary of the general concept of the cap system? Something explaining to amateurs like me the whole cap environment including all the different boni (signing, option, etc.) and their effect on the cap...

This might be a good starting place.

If I see anything that is better, then I'll post it.

http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/faq.asp

[PolkHigh33]

That's a good question.. I'll have to see if there is a site that explains it in a decent way.

Maybe this?

http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/faq.asp

Don't know about the quality though...

[FireJimCaldwell]

Maybe this?

http://www.askthecom...larycap/faq.asp

Don't know about the quality though...

I had posted that a minute before.

Here is another one that has real life examples and explains it on a player by player basis. The downside it's about the Patriots.

http://patscap.com/

and another one about the Jets

http://nyjetscap.com/

There used to be on on the Colts, but it doesn't seem to be updated.

http://www.coltscap.net/

[Gonzo]

If Pagano can pull a Wade Phillips in Houston (not that I'm expecting that) we could be a top rank defense with the right guys in there.

No doubt, but if we're playing what ifs we could keep Manning and have a top ranked offense and defense. If we pick up the option and he's healthy we have a Super Bowl contender. If we pick it up and he fails to return we cut him and some of the other vets and build through the draft for a couple years while we suffer through salary cap heck.

Without Manning we're rebuilding anyway. It's only a matter of degree.

[Fred Sanford]

Contracts can be renegotiated...Peyton has taken less $ in the past for the sake of the team....besides Irsay continues to say it's not about money....I have lived in 5 states and another country and have always continued to be a Colts fan. Win or lose my loyalty has been unwavering. The integrity and loyalty of this franchise makes me proud to support it. Peyton and this team are respected by many outside the fan base. They gave a superbowl ring to E. James and he was playing for another team, who does that? Their reputation exceeds most other teams. These are things you cannot put a price tag on. Peyton has continued his loyalty in wanting to retire with Colts! If he is done dirty mark my words this franchise will pay a much higher price for years to come. Loyalty, respect, integrity cannot be bought, they are earned!

[FireJimCaldwell]

Contracts can be renegotiated...Peyton has taken less $ in the past for the sake of the team....besides Irsay continues to say it's not about money....I have lived in 5 states and another country and have always continued to be a Colts fan. Win or lose my loyalty has been unwavering. The integrity and loyalty of this franchise makes me proud to support it. Peyton and this team are respected by many outside the fan base. They gave a superbowl ring to E. James and he was playing for another team, who does that? Their reputation exceeds most other teams. These are things you cannot put a price tag on. Peyton has continued his loyalty in wanting to retire with Colts! If he is done dirty mark my words this franchise will pay a much higher price for years to come. Loyalty, respect, integrity cannot be bought, they are earned!

Nice post & pup.

Contracts can be renegotiated...

For the most part I would agree with this, though there are some instances where they can't, and in my opinion right now Manning is in one of those instances until the new league year starts.

[unitaswestand]

I keep hearing people say that since we are rebuilding, it makes sense to get rid of Peyton. NE has rebuilt fine and kept Tom Brady. I don't think it is one or the other

[Balzer40]

I keep hearing people say that since we are rebuilding, it makes sense to get rid of Peyton. NE has rebuilt fine and kept Tom Brady. I don't think it is one or the other

NE didn't rebuild with all new staff(even though they have had to replace posistion coaches and coordinators). They have had the consistency of BB and Brady wasn't 36 yrs. old either. Thats a huge difference. When you rebuild not only your team, but also your identity, you don't start over with a 36 yr. old QB. It just don't make good sense.

[luvdacolts67]

So you are 20? I am guessing that most of your life the Colts had Manning and were contenders?

I watched my first Colts game, that I can remember, in 1971 (I was 4) and it was the Superbowl vs the Cowboys...which we won. Now by saying "we" I mean the Colts...just for clarification.

Soon after Johnny U was shown the street and the greatest QB I ever saw, Bert Jones, brought the Colts back to respectibility...only to suffer from injuries and a trade to the Rams. From 1978 to 1998, with the exception of the strike induced 1987 divisional champ and 1995 team that lost to Pitt, there was little to cheer about.

I was ecstatic when PM was drafted in '98. I was a fan of his Father and was hopeful for a chance at greatness. It came, it was great and it was frustrating, as defensively those teams rarely could hold their own against the elite.

All said, I am greatful for what has transpired and what PM has given to the team but as a man once said, " the only constant in life is change. ". It's time for that change, imvho...and I embrace it with the hopes of a more balanced team and aggressive defense.

Im a little older than you and remember the loss to the Jets. Loved Bert Jones, he was one of the best he just never had any time to throw the ball. Always wondered if he played for San Fran if we would be talking about him or Montana. he really was that good. I have been a Colts fan for a long time and there have been certain people that play a position that take it to a different level. Johnny Unitis did that and Peyton Manning did it. There have been other people on this forum like myself who have been saying that the direction this team went, under Pollian and the coaches, was wrong. I hated the Tampa 2 defense. It just dosnt work and it was sad to see them stick with this style all of Manning's career. I like the change that has been made with regard to Pagano. Needed to be done 6 years ago. Peyton deserves to be on a team that needs him to win the SB. I hope he goes where he has a chance to get more rings. I will be a fan of his and buy a jersey. I will root for that team as long as it's not against the Colts, Ive never been an Irsay fan because he's an elite left winger but what he said was true. No man is bigger than the team. Please don't retire Peyton, I want to watch the GOAT play for 3 more years. You are a class act and my family is grateful for you giving us the privilege of watching you play.

[husker61]

There are no reports suggesting Manning will be leaving.

There are no indications he is leaving.

There are only people in the media talking - just talking, with no credible sources, rumors, or statements. Pure, 100% speculation for the point of starting a conversation about the subject.

i completely agree!!!

media and bloggers have a worse record at being right than weather men.

[Fx Stryker]

Yeah I mean cmon guys it's just $38.4MM...

Yes I understand it is a insane thought. The only reason I say it because it is the "rebuilding year." The damage will be absorbed, and be gone next year.

[ace_6900]

The Baltimore Colts moved to Indianapolis......if you were born in Indy and moved to LA wouldn't YOU still be the same?

you do got a point there lol

[oldunclemark]

I keep hearing people say that since we are rebuilding, it makes sense to get rid of Peyton. NE has rebuilt fine and kept Tom Brady. I don't think it is one or the other

Not everybody is on board but they will be.

Odds are We're going to have Peyton Manning at QB and Andrew Luck as his backup...

That's what Irsay says he wants and he's got the bucks.

It Manning is OK and Luck is on board......we're not rebuilding..we're just remodeling the basement (3-4 instead of 4-3)

[amff]

What you described nonchalantly as "if it doesn't work out we can cut him after this following season" would represent salary cap suicide for the Colts.

Paying Peyton $28MM on March 8, and then cutting him after the 2012 season represents a dead cap space of $28.8MM, or 24% of the total salary cap for the team in 2013.

In terms of real money, this would mean paying Peyton $67.9MM to play one season ($26MM signing bonus, $28 option bonus, $7.5 salary for 2012, $6.4 salary and roster bonus for 2011)

I know it is very tempting to spend OPM (other people's money), but there are real consequences of what you are suggesting.

the $28 million is just his bonus right? I may be wrong and maybe I misunder stood, but if thats the case Isn't that exempt from the salary cap? If so 7.5 million is cheap for the greatest mind in football, IMO.

[FireJimCaldwell]

the $28 million is just his bonus right? I may be wrong and maybe I misunder stood, but if thats the case Isn't that exempt from the salary cap? If so 7.5 million is cheap for the greatest mind in football, IMO.

No it's not exempt.... His #'s were accurate.

[amff]

Contracts can be renegotiated...Peyton has taken less $ in the past for the sake of the team....besides Irsay continues to say it's not about money....I have lived in 5 states and another country and have always continued to be a Colts fan. Win or lose my loyalty has been unwavering. The integrity and loyalty of this franchise makes me proud to support it. Peyton and this team are respected by many outside the fan base. They gave a superbowl ring to E. James and he was playing for another team, who does that? Their reputation exceeds most other teams. These are things you cannot put a price tag on. Peyton has continued his loyalty in wanting to retire with Colts! If he is done dirty mark my words this franchise will pay a much higher price for years to come. Loyalty, respect, integrity cannot be bought, they are earned!

Well put! I would think that if #18 isnt 100% that he would be willing to negotiate andmaybe take less so thre would be cap romm for other guys( if its and issue).

[amff]

No it's not exempt.... His #'s were accurate.

It's not my money and not my team( as far as ownership obviously) but if anything, a 75% #18 as a back up to a rookie qb is still better than a 200% Painter or 200% Orvlosky! Am i right? I say sign him and take a couple drafts and a couple FA's time to build a team for the future qb to step into

[UndecidedFrog]

It's not my money and not my team( as far as ownership obviously) but if anything, a 75% #18 as a back up to a rookie qb is still better than a 200% Painter or 200% Orvlosky! Am i right? I say sign him and take a couple drafts and a couple FA's time to build a team for the future qb to step into

By paying Peyton the option bonus of $28 in March, you are seriously taking away money (both in terms of real dollars and salary cap dollars) that you can use to sign quality FAs.

[amff]

By paying Peyton the option bonus of $28 in March, you are seriously taking away money (both in terms of real dollars and salary cap dollars) that you can use to sign quality FAs.

Explain "quality" FA's? Like the Eagles did? Count me out on that one and keep #18

[UndecidedFrog]

Explain "quality" FA's? Like the Eagles did? Count me out on that one and keep #18

Forgive me, the correct term is perceived quality FAs that usually are expensive.

I do not begrudge you your opinion. I just want to make sure you understand the consequences of your opinion.

[amff]

Forgive me, the correct term is perceived quality FAs that usually are expensive.

I do not begrudge you your opinion. I just want to make sure you understand the consequences of your opinion.

I think free agency has its place. A SS would be nice or CB. But beyond that if we are in the rebuilding stage why not look to the next two years' worth of Draft picks to build upon. Cheaper than proven FA's snd with rookie salary cap effect coming in they have to prove themselves worthy of big dollars. By them #18 will have retired. Just some food for thought.

[UndecidedFrog]

I think free agency has its place. A SS would be nice or CB. But beyond that if we are in the rebuilding stage why not look to the next two years' worth of Draft picks to build upon. Cheaper than proven FA's snd with rookie salary cap effect coming in they have to prove themselves worthy of big dollars. By them #18 will have retired. Just some food for thought.

The common wisdom is that FAs do not need as much development as draft prospects. Therefore, time becomes the trade-off for dollars.

Also, if you expect Peyton to have retired within the next two years (after the 2013 season), the acceleration of his salary cap dead space hits the team as follows:

If Peyton retires after the 2013 season, and prior to June 1, 2014, the team would be hit with $19.2 dead salary cap in 2014.

[amff]

The common wisdom is that FAs do not need as much development as draft prospects. Therefore, time becomes the trade-off for dollars.

Also, if you expect Peyton to have retired within the next two years (after the 2013 season), the acceleration of his salary cap dead space hits the team as follows:

If Peyton retires after the 2013 season, and prior to June 1, 2014, the team would be hit with $19.2 dead salary cap in 2014.

Talking money, rookie might go lets say 4 yr/6 mill. Or a FA might want 4yr/20 mill . If neither pan out, rookie money is better lost than FA. I see your point, but I'm jut tryin to shed som relevancy on my thought process. If #18 can play this year, do u still want him to go cause of money?

[UndecidedFrog]

Talking money, rookie might go lets say 4 yr/6 mill. Or a FA might want 4yr/20 mill . If neither pan out, rookie money is better lost than FA. I see your point, but I'm jut tryin to shed som relevancy on my thought process. If #18 can play this year, do u still want him to go cause of money?

I am saying that Peyton's current contract makes him the top paid QB in the league ($90MM/5years), with a significant option bonus ($28MM) coming due in March.

If the Colts is set on using their #1 draft pick on a highly-rated QB, it makes little sense tying up all those real and cap dollars on the QB position, when the money (real and cap) can be used on other positions of need.

If there is any health uncertainty with Peyton, such that you are unsure if he can play to his pre-injury ability, it makes more sense to cut/release him before the March bonus is due. Given the fact that the team is in rebuilding mode (as evidenced by cleaning house and hiring of all new FO and coaching staff), the more flexibility with the dollars the better, hopefully resulting in a faster ramp up time to be contenders again. And with younger players, that can be sustained longer.

So it is not only about money. It is about rebuilding with a younger QB. It is about health uncertainty risk. It is a combination of all these things.