Fire Grigson?

[Surge89]

Polian only deserves credit for the team continuing to win in that he drafted the playmakers that were on those rosters. But those guys had all been here for a long time, for the most part: Manning, Reggie, Addai, Mathis, Freeney, Sanders, Bethea, Clark, Garcon, Collie, etc. I'm sure I'm missing some, but for the most part, the core was all here in 2007. Garcon and Collie got on the field in 2009. There are a couple other guys, as well.

 

But the point is that Polian put that team together, then was content to just sit back and watch what happened. Like an ant farm. You do the work at the beginning, and the ants do the rest. He deserves credit for adding those guys, but they carried the team from 2007 on. His drafts produced little, he refused to use free agency, and the talent slowly began to erode. That's why the team went from 14-2 to 2-14 so quickly, so drastically. 

 

So I think where we're missing each other is that you're giving him credit for the wins, and I'm saying he had already started letting the team fall apart. That started as early as 2008, to be honest. All those games were won primarily on the backs of players he drafted in the early part of the decade, or before. Very little new blood, almost no top notch players, came in the building in his last five years. I don't think he showed skill in putting together a team that would keep winning. I think he showed complacency in putting together a team that collapsed in on itself in just two seasons.

Great post. I appreciate people who understand circumstance.

I think our only slight disagreement is I believe Peyton heavily carried those teams the last 4 Years. Which imo speaks volumes of the type of QB we once had. One of the only QBs that has ever played the game that did so in spite of an inept coach, GM, and quality team AND STILL got us to a super bowl.

[Modern]

D'Qwell Jackson and Mike Adams are both former Browns players and current Pro Bowlers. Also, for as much as you dislike Richardson, the year before he became a Colt, he was voted as a top 100 player by his peers albeit his stay in Indy has been a failure.

Now he is voted a bust by the whole world except a couple of crazy guys here.

[amfootball]

He won't. He probably should be.

You believe he should go? How do you see him differently than Polian if at all? I was always a big fan of Polian even though I know many Colts fans did not like him because he was not aggressive in FA. What do you see the issues to be with Grigson? I think your team has done great things the last three years all things considered.

[theanarchist]

Without doing a complete post-mortem, the Polian firing was about more than just needing a change. He had put together bad rosters, starting with bad drafting, overpaid vets, and lack of willingness to bring in new talent. And whether that was him or his son, they were a package deal at that point, and needed to go. Not because the team was going to change dramatically, but because they hadn't done a good job. 

 

And no, it wasn't just Manning carrying the team by himself, in spite of everyone else; there were other good players here as well, that Polian should get credit for. But the overall roster had suffered, and that's solely on Polian.

 

Now, Grigson has had three years. We're not talking about a gradual decline, we're not talking about someone who is stuck in a rut that he dug out, or someone who has put the team in bad situations. So no, there's no reason, IMO, to be talking about getting rid of Grigson. But he does need to bring the heat this offseason. This is his team, his roster, his staff, entirely. This roster is a reflection of his ability to build a team.

 

But just to be clear, saying "the team was winning, therefore the GM must have been doing a good job" isn't analysis. It's a platitude. And in the case of Polian, particularly down the stretch, it doesn't hold up.

I don't disagree with what your saying. What will kill a GM faster than anything is missing with your first rounders. A lot of what killed Polian, besides letting his son do the drafting at the end, was him missing on: Anthony Gonzales, Tony Ugoh and Jerry Hughes. First round guys are expected to come in and be significant contributors. None of those guys were. What I worry about with Grigson is that the jury is still out on Werner and the Richardson trade has become a disaster. What's good is that he has hit big on several of this other draft picks like, Allen, Hilton, Fleener, and had a few guys from this years draft that contributed a lot.

 

He can't afford to miss on another 1st round guy. That's just my opinion. Those kinds of mistakes really kill you.

[Dustin]

You believe he should go? How do you see him differently than Polian if at all? I was always a big fan of Polian even though I know many Colts fans did not like him because he was not aggressive in FA. What do you see the issues to be with Grigson? I think your team has done great things the last three years all things considered.

 

He's been an NFL GM for 3 years and has already wasted 2 first round picks. Defense gets blown out by most competent offenses, oline isn't any better than it was when he first got here. He's still held up by that amazing 2012 draft, but hasn't done anything noteworthy in the 2 years following. 

[Cynjin]

He's been an NFL GM for 3 years and has already wasted 2 first round picks. Defense gets blown out by most competent offenses, oline isn't any better than it was when he first got here. He's still held up by that amazing 2012 draft, but hasn't done anything noteworthy in the 2 years following. 

 

I don't think that is true.  The Oline is better, no good enough but better.  Also, some of the moves he made on the Oline have not worked out due to injuries, not really his fault.

[Dustin]

I don't think that is true.  The Oline is better, no good enough but better.  Also, some of the moves he made on the Oline have not worked out due to injuries, not really his fault.

 

When you sign a guy who had micro-fracture surgery (Cherilus) and another guy who had an injury history (Thomas) it's fair game. 

[Cynjin]

When you sign a guy who had micro-fracture surgery (Cherilus) and another guy who had an injury history (Thomas) it's fair game. 

 

Cherilus yes, but he did play well last year, imo.  I did not think that Thomas had an injury history, especially with his quad.  

[Superman]

You believe he should go? How do you see him differently than Polian if at all? I was always a big fan of Polian even though I know many Colts fans did not like him because he was not aggressive in FA. What do you see the issues to be with Grigson? I think your team has done great things the last three years all things considered.

That's not why fans didn't like Polian.

[Superman]

Great post. I appreciate people who understand circumstance.

I think our only slight disagreement is I believe Peyton heavily carried those teams the last 4 Years. Which imo speaks volumes of the type of QB we once had. One of the only QBs that has ever played the game that did so in spite of an inept coach, GM, and quality team AND STILL got us to a super bowl.

What about Freeney, Mathis, Sanders, Bethea, Reggie and the other receivers, Clark, Addai, Brackett, etc.? Manning was obviously the MVP, but saying it was all him undermines all the other guys who were critical components of those teams.

[dw49]

That's not why fans didn't like Polian.

 

 

I only read the last page or so and am too tired to go through the first 4. Anyway.. did anyone mention Polian's kid in the discussion about how the roster fell apart in the last 3-4 years of his tenure ?

[Superman]

I only read the last page or so and am too tired to go through the first 4. Anyway.. did anyone mention Polian's kid in the discussion about how the roster fell apart in the last 3-4 years of his tenure ?

I did, but only briefly.

[NewColtsFan]

He's been an NFL GM for 3 years and has already wasted 2 first round picks. Defense gets blown out by most competent offenses, oline isn't any better than it was when he first got here. He's still held up by that amazing 2012 draft, but hasn't done anything noteworthy in the 2 years following. 

 

You mean other than trade a #2 for Vonte Davis and then this past draft,  hit on Mewhort, Moncrief and Newsome.

 

I'm sure you meant to mention those too....   but they slipped your mind.     

[Dustin]

 Mewhort, Moncrief and Newsome.

 

 

None of those guys are particularly noteworthy. Mewhort is your average 2nd round pick and the other 2 haven't really shown much yet IMO. Moncrief had 2-3 good games but was all but invisible down the stretch. 

[BOTT]

If you had simply said....     "winning is the most important aspect of the job,  but it's not the only aspect"  then you would've been fine.

 

But you're not happy with Grigson just as you weren't happy with Polian.    So, suddenly you trot out the nonsense about winning...   but trotting out a teams record isn't proof he is doing a swell job.

 

Downplaying the single most important aspect to a GM's job simply isn't a good argument.    And don't blame me for mis-characterizing.     You're only saying it because deep down you know how sill your argument looks.

 

Own it.    The problem is yours,  not mine.

Oh good god, stop with your nonsense. If you need to be spoon fed the obvious that's your problem. You are like many fans who want to make overly simple arguments like "QBs are judged by rings" blah blah blah. Nobody is impressed.

[NewColtsFan]

None of those guys are particularly noteworthy. Mewhort is your average 2nd round pick and the other 2 haven't really shown much yet IMO. Moncrief had 2-3 good games but was all but invisible down the stretch. 

 

Spoken like a guy who doesn't like Ryan Grigson.   And that would be you.

 

You can't expect to be taken seriously with what you wrote.   A 5th round rookie leads the team in sacks and he "hasn't shown much in your opinion"...??   

 

Both showed they should have a nice future.

 

Kiper killed the Colts for the 2014 draft.    Now that the year is in the books,  here's what he's now saying....  here's his re-grade....

 

 

Indianapolis Colts

Round Pick Position Player College (2) 59 T Jack Mewhort Ohio State (3) 90 WR Donte Moncrief Mississippi (5) 166 DE Jonathan Newsome Ball State (6) 203 ILB Andrew Jackson Western Kentucky (7) 232 G Ulrick John Georgia State

Post-draft grade: D+

Summary: You have to give Ryan Grigson and his scouting team some credit, because they actually got some really good pieces out of this draft even after, frankly, basically flushing away a first-round pick for Trent Richardson. The bulk of the low grade at the time was based around the fact that Richardson, at a non-premium position, had cost them a first and given them close to nothing. At this point, he's probably done in Indy.

 

That said, Jack Mewhort at No. 59 overall was useful -- basically an average NFL guard, but one who played a ton of snaps. Donte Moncrief, an inconsistent but physically gifted receiver, helped out down the stretch.   And Jonathan Newsome was a breakthrough player in a part-time role, showing he can get to the passer.   Undrafted free agent Jonotthan Harrison was a really useful addition and gave them a lot of snaps, and fellow UFA Zurlon Tipton got some action -- 87 snaps -- and could be in the RB mix in 2015.  Richardson had to factor in the grade here, and they didn't hit a couple needs, but the Colts sure rallied well and pushed the grade up because they found players who helped them win games.

New grade: B-

[NewColtsFan]

Oh good god, stop with your nonsense. If you need to be spoon fed the obvious that's your problem. You are like many fans who want to make overly simple arguments like "QBs are judged by rings" blah blah blah. Nobody is impressed.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about.    None.    And all your drama-queen nonsense isn't going to change that.

 

I doubt we'll be exchanging much in the future.    Good luck.

[BOTT]

You have no idea what you're talking about.    None.    And all your drama-queen nonsense isn't going to change that.

 

I doubt we'll be exchanging much in the future.    Good luck.

Oh my, that really hurts my feelings. What's next? You going threaten the ignore button? That seems to be one of your classic moves.

Yeah, I'm the drama queen. I gave my opinion and your panties immediately bunched up....get over it.

[Superman]

None of those guys are particularly noteworthy. Mewhort is your average 2nd round pick and the other 2 haven't really shown much yet IMO. Moncrief had 2-3 good games but was all but invisible down the stretch.

Do you feel like you're downplaying the good and only focusing on the bad? I do.

No reason to ignore the whiffs in the first round, those are killer. But those other additiona are critical to long term success, especially getting a long term starting guard in the second round.

[Dustin]

 

You can't expect to be taken seriously with what you wrote.   A 5th round rookie leads the team in sacks and he "hasn't shown much in your opinion"...??   

 

 

No, he had a bunch of unblocked sacks and was invisible for the majority of season. What he's shown is that he has the ability to be a solid contribute. It's not some "homerun" pick like you're trying to make it out to be.

 

 

Kiper killed the Colts for the 2014 draft.    Now that the year is in the books,  here's what he's now saying....  here's his re-grade....

 

 

A. I don't care what Mel Kiper says

 

B. What you just copy and pasted is pretty much what I am saying. Mewhort is an average player and the other 2 are pretty much just potential. 

[Dustin]

Do you feel like you're downplaying the good and only focusing on the bad? I do.

No reason to ignore the whiffs in the first round, those are killer. But those other additiona are critical to long term success, especially getting a long term starting guard in the second round.

 

Maybe. I feel like people are trumping up decent moves as if they're masterful picks. Mewhort is the type of player any competent GM should be able to draft in the 2nd round. 

 

I'm not ready to call the other 2 as good or bad picks based on last year. Newsome wasn't as good as his stats make him seem (though he is better than Werner) and Moncrief didn't really do much of anything once he started to play significant snaps. 

[NewColtsFan]

Oh my, that really hurts my feelings. What's next? You going threaten the ignore button? That seems to be one of your classic moves.

Yeah, I'm the drama queen. I gave my opinion and your panties immediately bunched up....get over it.

 

That's how clueless you are.    I don't have anyone on the ignore button.    Not even you.   And I've said that many times.

 

But you're just too clueless to know up from down.

 

We see things differently.   And I have no interest in wasting my time with someone who thinks they know what they're talking about when they don't have a clue.

[NewColtsFan]

No, he had a bunch of unblocked sacks and was invisible for the majority of season. What he's shown is that he has the ability to be a solid contribute. It's not some "homerun" pick like you're trying to make it out to be.

 

 

A. I don't care what Mel Kiper says

 

B. What you just copy and pasted is pretty much what I am saying. Mewhort is an average player and the other 2 are pretty much just potential. 

 

I didn't call Newsome a "homerun"...  but finding him in the 5th round and having him lead the team in sacks is no small accomplishment despite your attempts to downplay him.

 

And few here thought Mewhort would be even average.   Finding a guy who can start on the line as a rookie is -- again -- no small achievement.     For a rookie to be starting and be average is not easy to find.

 

But your dislike for Grigson makes you unable to process that.....

[BOTT]

That's how clueless you are.    I don't have anyone on the ignore button.    Not even you.   And I've said that many times.

 

But you're just too clueless to know up from down.

 

We see things differently.   And I have no interest in wasting my time with someone who thinks they know what they're talking about when they don't have a clue.

Then I guess you just threaten it lol.

And please, feel free to put me on your ignore list. Save me from responding to your jibberish laden rants.

[NewColtsFan]

Then I guess you just threaten it lol.

And please, feel free to put me on your ignore list. Save me from responding to your jibberish laden rants.

 

Nope.   Wrong again.    At least your consistent.   But congratulations.

 

Your problem is you want freedom to say whatever you want and when anyone calls you on it,  you throw a fit and go into massive brain gridlock. 

 

If I thought there was any hope for any decent civilized conversation, then fine,  we could debate all day long.   But you're not interested in that.

 

You want your stuff accepted as the undisputed truth and anyone who challenges you gets you all worked up in a lather.

 

You're just not worth it.    Sorry.

[Superman]

Maybe. I feel like people are trumping up decent moves as if they're masterful picks. Mewhort is the type of player any competent GM should be able to draft in the 2nd round.

I'm not ready to call the other 2 as good or bad picks based on last year. Newsome wasn't as good as his stats make him seem (though he is better than Werner) and Moncrief didn't really do much of anything once he started to play significant snaps.

I think it's too early to judge Newsome or Moncrief. We both know how raw they were coming out, so I think the fact that they could get on the field and contribute in Year 1 is a positive. And if they continue to develop, they'll be solid pieces that help round out the roster. I guess we agree.

I give more credit for Mewhort. For him to step in as a starter right away and have a strong rookie season, especially finishing strong after he started to slow down, I think he was a great pick. And I wanted Terrence Brooks. But look at some of the guys in that 50-70 range. Some of them didn't even play, half of them were pretty bad... All things considered, Mewhort is a strong pick. To see it dismissed as an average 2nd rounder that anyone should make doesn't add up, because the picks in that range were all over the place.

To me, Grigson got back on the horse in that draft. He shot himself in the foot with the trade, but I see no room for complaint with what he was able to do.

Edit: It doesn't undo the mistakes, but I think it got him pointed back in the right direction.

[dw49]

I did, but only briefly.

  

K

[BOTT]

Nope. Wrong again. At least your consistent. But congratulations.

Your problem is you want freedom to say whatever you want and when anyone calls you on it, you throw a fit and go into massive brain gridlock.

If I thought there was any hope for any decent civilized conversation, then fine, we could debate all day long. But you're not interested in that.

You want your stuff accepted as the undisputed truth and anyone who challenges you gets you all worked up in a lather.

You're just not worth it. Sorry.

Says the guy who has had to apologize a few times for going off the rails.

I was having a civilized debate until you had to go simpleton with your "you're comparing Sanchez to Polian.... ..whatever" nonsense. That's just a typical forum response from someone who doesn't have a legit argument.

Basically, this is your argument: Colts win = Grigson good or everybody wrong. How very Incredible Hulk of you.

[Superman]

Says the guy who has had to apologize a few times for going off the rails.

I was having a civilized debate until you had to go simpleton with your "you're comparing Sanchez to Polian.... ..whatever" nonsense. That's just a typical forum response from someone who doesn't have a legit argument.

Basically, this is your argument: Colts win = Grigson good or everybody wrong. How very Incredible Hulk of you.

Nope. Wrong again. At least your consistent. But congratulations.

Your problem is you want freedom to say whatever you want and when anyone calls you on it, you throw a fit and go into massive brain gridlock.

If I thought there was any hope for any decent civilized conversation, then fine, we could debate all day long. But you're not interested in that.

You want your stuff accepted as the undisputed truth and anyone who challenges you gets you all worked up in a lather.

You're just not worth it. Sorry.

Both of you have said that you're done. Why not actually be done?

[BOTT]

Both of you have said that you're done. Why not actually be done?

Well, I never said that, but I get your point.

[Superman]

Well, I never said that, but I get your point.

Well you should have... ;)

[Surge89]

What about Freeney, Mathis, Sanders, Bethea, Reggie and the other receivers, Clark, Addai, Brackett, etc.? Manning was obviously the MVP, but saying it was all him undermines all the other guys who were critical components of those teams.

As I said we see this completely differently. Freeney was overrated constantly, benefitted from a QB that put him constantly in situation that he could thrive in. Mathis was a good player yes but no where near the caliber he is now playing OLB. Sanders would have been nothing without Bethea it's not even close. Sanders got all of the coverage but he would have been a no one with any other safety save maybe Ed or Ryan. Players who could actually play safety. I've already credited Bethea as I think he's probably the best player ever found on defense. Reggie of course is an amazing player and future HoF, but a find early in Indy not the last years. Clark? Addai? Both of these players heavily inflated due to Manning ability. They literally did nothing else in the league without Manning... don't get me started on Brackett. He may be a fan favorite but he was an awful LBer. He covered mediocre and couldn't perform any other duty of a LBer even remotely well. He looked much better than he was because of the system and he really never looked any better than average. And yes I intend to undermine all of those players (except maybe 2 or 3) in Manning's last 4 Years because he literally did everything. Manning was a part of a team from 98 till 06 and often helped his team more than hurt. But from 07 till he left Manning was the team and it showed. If he had a bad game the Colts fell apart. He couldn't be just good he needed to be consistently exceptional.

[Superman]

As I said we see this completely differently. Freeney was overrated constantly, benefitted from a QB that put him constantly in situation that he could thrive in. Mathis was a good player yes but no where near the caliber he is now playing OLB. Sanders would have been nothing without Bethea it's not even close. Sanders got all of the coverage but he would have been a no one with any other safety save maybe Ed or Ryan. Players who could actually play safety. I've already credited Bethea as I think he's probably the best player ever found on defense. Reggie of course is an amazing player and future HoF, but a find early in Indy not the last years. Clark? Addai? Both of these players heavily inflated due to Manning ability. They literally did nothing else in the league without Manning... don't get me started on Brackett. He may be a fan favorite but he was an awful LBer. He covered mediocre and couldn't perform any other duty of a LBer even remotely well. He looked much better than he was because of the system and he really never looked any better than average. And yes I intend to undermine all of those players (except maybe 2 or 3) in Manning's last 4 Years because he literally did everything. Manning was a part of a team from 98 till 06 and often helped his team more than hurt. But from 07 till he left Manning was the team and it showed. If he had a bad game the Colts fell apart. He couldn't be just good he needed to be consistently exceptional.

I'm not putting any of those guys in the HOF, but yeah, we completely disagree.

Sanders was DPOY in 2007. I'm not sure how you figure Bethea was better than him during his short prime. Freeney was a great pass rusher, bottom line. The whole "get ahead and let the pass rushers go" thing is a gross oversimplification. Both Freeney and Mathis made great plays in lots of come from behind victories, and we saw in the 2007 playoff game just how ineffective the defense was without them.

Guys like Clark and Addai and Brackett might be overrated at times, but they all played critical roles. Replaceable, sure, but still contributors.

Manning didn't do literally everything. That's literally nonsense. You don't make big comebacks without defensive stops. Again, obviously, Manning was the single most important factor, but the others were major contributors. Especially in 2007, which was probably the most complete team we had, if not for injuries to Marvin and Dwight, and then Mathis in the playoffs.

The team was definitely overly dependent on Manning. The complete inability to run the ball started in 2008, and the defense began to erode as well. And the Polians let it happen, choosing to overpay Brackett and Hayden and so on rather than bringing in new talent. And they missed on a ton of drafts picks. We kept winning because we had a few difference makers, Manning being the chief one, but it wasn't just him.

[cm43sports]

Now he is voted a bust by the whole world except a couple of crazy guys here.

That may be true but that would still mean that half of the players that Grigson got that were formerly Browns have gone on to make a pro bowl in a Colt's uniform which is an outstanding success. I guess I fail to see why Grigson should leave the Browns alone? Richardson has been a failure and Cribbs wasn't really a success but nobody can get all the decisions right.

[Surge89]

I'm not putting any of those guys in the HOF, but yeah, we completely disagree.

Sanders was DPOY in 2007. I'm not sure how you figure Bethea was better than him during his short prime. Freeney was a great pass rusher, bottom line. The whole "get ahead and let the pass rushers go" thing is a gross oversimplification. Both Freeney and Mathis made great plays in lots of come from behind victories, and we saw in the 2007 playoff game just how ineffective the defense was without them.

Guys like Clark and Addai and Brackett might be overrated at times, but they all played critical roles. Replaceable, sure, but still contributors.

Manning didn't do literally everything. That's literally nonsense. You don't make big comebacks without defensive stops. Again, obviously, Manning was the single most important factor, but the others were major contributors. Especially in 2007, which was probably the most complete team we had, if not for injuries to Marvin and Dwight, and then Mathis in the playoffs.

The team was definitely overly dependent on Manning. The complete inability to run the ball started in 2008, and the defense began to erode as well. And the Polians let it happen, choosing to overpay Brackett and Hayden and so on rather than bringing in new talent. And they missed on a ton of drafts picks. We kept winning because we had a few difference makers, Manning being the chief one, but it wasn't just him.

I'd say your last post coincides with my first statement :-). We agree I just tend to be more embellishing with my words and you speak more in fact lol.

Yes I know Manning didn't do literally everything but it sure did feel like it. The reason why I credit Bethea just like I do Clark (duo with Polamalu) is because yes those safeties made amazing plays but they gave up huge gaps in the defense in which Bethea and Clark had to be exceptional players. If they didn't do their job exceptionally then those Safeties would never have been able to make those amazing plays. That's why often you will hear Ed Reed noted in a much higher level of light because while he was a playmaker he made plays while still holding the integrity of the backend in play AND make plays at the line of scrimmage. He truly was a special player. It didn't matter who Baltimore put back there Ed could still hold a fort with any talent.

As long winded as I'm being my point is that I tend to undervalue safeties that while make a lot of "wow" plays but can't play safety any better than average. They usually need an exceptional player alongside them to compensate. In no way am I saying that either safety is HoF worthy but just because one got DPOY is not the end all be all. I mean... D. Jackson and Adams were elected to the pro bowl and we both know good and well the middle of our defense was a huge problem....

[LockeDown]

We're in a good position right now.  Duron Carter wants to play with Luck.  Vontae Davis and half of the Ravens want to be with Pagano.  Frank Gore wants to be our running back.  As long as we have cap space we have a team that other players want to play on.  Marry this with Grigson, who believes in using free agency to fill in spots and we have a win/win. 

 

I think Grigson knocks this draft out of the ball park.  We have plenty of picks and a better team than a year ago.  I think we tighten up our running game and our defense.