Miami (+7) @ Denver (11-23-14)

[Blue Horseshoe]

Do you know the circumstances surrounding the Patriots final TD yesterday? The penalty on Mosley, etc?

 

If not please go check the "Lions player cut block" thread and check out the GIF. The way the Lions played those last two minutes they were out to injure players, plain and simple. All because they got their butts kicked soundly for three hours. 

 

No, I did not watch the ball game.  I was asking in general because to me they seem very similar.

Not that I care in the least about either.  You have 60 minutes in every game to play football so why not play as hard as you can for all of them?  If the opponent is unable to stop you then that is their problem.

[Nadine]

I removed a post that was necessarily personal about Peyton Manning.

 

Att Pat fans..........Colts fans respect and admire Peyton Manning.  And rightly so.  Coming into a thread to bash him is baiting.  Don't do it.

 

Fine if you don't like him...........but personal feelings are just that and the rest is just trash talk

[YOUR GM]

Related but not the same. I was never arguing Manning and Brady in that respect.

 

And I don't agree with him so the point is moot anyways.I think Peyton is about one thing right now and that is getting back to the Super Bowl and winning it

 

Well, I don't know what to tell you then. That's what we (JerodMayo51 and I) were talking about, so either stick to the same discussion when quoting an individual or just don't jump in the conversation at all 

[amfootball]

Well, I don't know what to tell you then. That's what we (JerodMayo51 and I) were talking about, so either stick to the same discussion when quoting an individual or just don't jump in the conversation at all 

Good advice.

[JerodMayo51]

Less than 2 minutes left in the game, Detroit with no timeouts left. They opted to further run up the score rather than take 3 knees and end the game. I don't really have a problem with it, but they were clearly running up the score at that point. They did the same thing in a number of games in 07 as well, so if the OP has an issue with Peyton for being a stat padder, he should certainly hate Brady as well. 07 was bordering on embarrassing with how hard Brady was trying to surpass Peyton's record

 

Brady didn't throw the touchdown, the Patriots ran the ball in for the score... So no, Brady wasn't stat padding.. Hes not Peyton Manning, stats don't matter to him, he just wants to win

[Moose Of Woe]

I don't know, not to sound all defensive of Brady, but he's a big part of their flexibility. Any QB can hand the ball off 45 times like he did last week, but then he has to come out and throw it 50+ times against Detroit because the Patriots' game-plan was to go with the quick, short passing game. Best way to negate the Lions' run D and their pass rush. 

 

With a lot of mediocre-to-good QBs, you can't execute these ever-changing game-plans, or at least you can't do it very well. 

Like I said he puts that team over the top, but they're a great team good enough to win it all without him there. Mind you I'm not saying Geno Smith could do it lol......

Gronk is the other player who puts them over the top. You could argue he's MvP of the entire league.

[Moose Of Woe]

To the bolded - have you gone mad? ;)  What is a reasonable QB? Stafford? Tannenhill? Hoyer?

 

Brady is a huge reason why they are as flexible as they are on offense to go from power run last week to pass happy this week. He lets Bill do whatever he wants on offense and it is this aspect of Brady that is probably his best quality. He is fine handing it off 38 times to a practice squad back or throwing it 50 times yesterday completely carving up on the of the best defenses in the league.

 

I would say this team is probably least reliant on Brady being spectacular to win as was evidenced by his sub par performance the first half of the Colts that did not affect the game being dominated from start to finish. In the past, the Pats simply did not have the run game or defense to make up for a sub par game from to win much less dominate. When he is playing well, there is simply no answer for this team right now.

No....I retain that NE is a loaded team that could win with any decent QB and he just puts them over the top. They're head over heels better than every other team because he's there, but they'd still be better than every other team even without him there. The gap just wouldn't be as wide as it is now.

 

NE wouldn't be a shoe in for the SB without him, but they'd still be the most balanced team provided the QB weren't Geno Smith or something to drag them down.

[amfootball]

No....I retain that NE is a loaded team that could win with any decent QB and he just puts them over the top. They're head over heels better than every other team because he's there, but they'd still be better than every other team even without him there. The gap just wouldn't be as wide as it is now.

 

NE wouldn't be a shoe in for the SB without him, but they'd still be the most balanced team provided the QB weren't Geno Smith or something to drag them down.

You really think Brady's weapons are all that good outside of Gronk? I think an average QB would struggle to make hay with this group. Newton certainly was not getting the production out of Lafells that Brady is and Wright was not thought to be much of anything in TB to where they threw him on top of the Mankins deal. And then there is the loss of Ridley our number one back that Brady had to make up for when the Oline was struggling. This is far from Brady's best offense. He has maybe his best defense in years but even that was not very good until just a few weeks ago when they finally shored up the run defense and started letting Revis play man.

[Moose Of Woe]

You really think Brady's weapons are all that good outside of Gronk? I think an average QB would struggle to make hay with this group. Newton certainly was not getting the production out of Lafells that Brady is and Wright was not thought to be much of anything in TB to where they threw him on top of the Mankins deal. And then there is the loss of Ridley our number one back that Brady had to make up for when the Oline was struggling. This is far from Brady's best offense. He has maybe his best defense in years but even that was not very good until just a few weeks ago when they finally shored up the run defense and started letting Revis play man.

Edelman? Absolutely and the other receivers are serviceable.  Brady's best weapon on offense is the best offensive line in football. Even more important than Gronk are the 5 guys in front of him.  NE's line is even better than PHI with the studs they have.

 

You don't have a burner like Moss in 2007, but the entire team is pretty well rounded. It's not just about the offense. That TEAM is good enough to win it all without him. He just puts it over the top by making the offense that much better. (Along with Gronk)  Brady's entire team is a weapon. Everyone contributes. There is no dead weight aspect of that team.

[amfootball]

Edelman? Absolutely and the other receivers are serviceable.  Brady's best weapon on offense is the best offensive line in football. Even more important than Gronk are the 5 guys in front of him.  NE's line is even better than PHI with the studs they have.

 

You don't have a burner like Moss in 2007, but the rest of the team is pretty well rounded. It's not just about the offense. That TEAM is good enough to win it all without him. He just puts it over the top by making the offense that much better. (Along with Gronk)  Brady's entire team is a weapon.

It is not good enough without Brady.Another elite QB sure, they could win. But not an average QB. The Oline was the worst in the league the first month. A lot of their resurgence was them getting better and also Brady getting rid of the ball and his timing with the receivers.

 

After watching Stafford lay an egg yesterday with Megatron and Tate, there is no way a QB like him would take this team to the bowl.

[Moose Of Woe]

It is not good enough without Brady.Another elite QB sure, they could win. But not an average QB. The Oline was the worst in the league the first month. A lot of their resurgence was them getting better and also Brady getting rid of the ball and his timing with the receivers.

 

After watching Stafford lay an egg yesterday with Megatron and Tate, there is no way a QB like him would take this team to the bowl.

A worse team went 11-5 with Cassel, who is a bad QB. Not Sanchez bad, but bad.

 

This team is better than 2007 record be damned. A decent QB could win it with them, though not as likely.  The big difference is many of the games wouldn't be slaughters like they are now, but the team would still find ways to win. Like I said Brady puts it over the top and they pretty much curbstomp people because of it.

 

If the offense struggled, defense/special teams could pick up the slack. They can beat you in any number of ways. They just need someone who doesn't go out there and throws the game away *cough Sanchez* and keeps the stupid decisions to a minimum.

[amfootball]

A worse team went 11-5 with Cassel, who is a bad QB. Not Sanchez bad, but bad.

 

This team is better than 2007 record be damned. A decent QB could win it with them, though not as likely.  The big difference is many of the games wouldn't be slaughters like they are now, but the team would still find ways to win. Like I said Brady puts it over the top and they pretty much curbstomp people because of it.

 

If the offense struggled, defense/special teams could pick up the slack. They can beat you in any number of ways. They just need someone who doesn't go out there and throw the game away *cough Sanchez* and keep the stupid decisions to a minimum.

Yes, 11-5 and no playoffs. I rest my case.

[Moose Of Woe]

Yes, 11-5 and no playoffs. I rest my case.

11-5 is a good record. Good enough to win that division any year aside from that one when Miami played out of their minds.

[JerodMayo51]

No....I retain that NE is a loaded team that could win with any decent QB and he just puts them over the top. They're head over heels better than every other team because he's there, but they'd still be better than every other team even without him there. The gap just wouldn't be as wide as it is now.

 

NE wouldn't be a shoe in for the SB without him, but they'd still be the most balanced team provided the QB weren't Geno Smith or something to drag them down.

 

Not just any QB could step in and do what hes doing.. Manning couldnt because there isnt enough offensive weapons for him.. Drew Brees maybe... Aaron Rodgers probably.. 

 

Brady threw 53 passes against the Detroit defense... the #1 defense in the entire league..   Brady helped get this team hitting on all cylinders..

 

 

By week 5, people on this board were saying the Pats were done, Brady is washed up and this season was "proof" that he was never really that good to begin with... etc etc etc..   Now they're winning in dominant fashion and its because the TEAM is so good, not Brady.

[amfootball]

11-5 is a good record.

Sure but that is not what you said. You said an average QB could win the Super Bowl with this team. I don't agree. They only have a chance to go all the way because of Brady.

[Moose Of Woe]

Not just any QB could step in and do what hes doing.. Manning couldnt because there isnt enough offensive weapons for him.. Drew Brees maybe... Aaron Rodgers probably.. 

 

Brady threw 53 passes against the Detroit defense... the #1 defense in the entire league..   Brady helped get this team hitting on all cylinders..

 

 

By week 5, people on this board were saying the Pats were done, Brady is washed up and this season was "proof" that he was never really that good to begin with... etc etc etc..   Now they're winning in dominant fashion and its because the TEAM is so good, not Brady.

I didn't say any QB could step in and do what he's doing.

I said any respectable QB has a chance to step in and has a good shot to win the SB with that team.

[Moose Of Woe]

Sure but that is not what you said. You said an average QB could win the Super Bowl with this team. I don't agree. They only have a chance to go all the way because of Brady.

Eh...agree to disagree.

 

Obviously I think it's as close to a guarantee you'll get in the NFL that they'll win it all with Brady there. I think it's a strong possibility they'd be good enough to do it with someone like, for example, Romo or Rivers too. Health pending. Much less someone like Rodgers who would be flat out scary with that team but he's great, not good or average.

[JerodMayo51]

Edelman? Absolutely and the other receivers are serviceable.  Brady's best weapon on offense is the best offensive line in football. Even more important than Gronk are the 5 guys in front of him.  NE's line is even better than PHI with the studs they have.

 

You don't have a burner like Moss in 2007, but the entire team is pretty well rounded. It's not just about the offense. That TEAM is good enough to win it all without him. He just puts it over the top by making the offense that much better. (Along with Gronk)  Brady's entire team is a weapon. Everyone contributes. There is no dead weight aspect of that team.

 

Weeks 1 - 5 the offensive line was swiss cheese and people here were saying "look at Brady without a good offensive line, hes just an average QB!"

 

Then they all start clicking and getting it together, and now its because Brady is behind a "fortress".  Brady gets the ball out quicker than almost any QB in the league...  That Lions game was all short bubble screens and "dink & dunk" passes because the offensive line wouldn't be able to give him a lot of time against the defensive line.

 

When the Pats are playing bad, its because Brady is just average and was never really good anyways.. when the Pats are playing good, its because they're the most "loaded" team in the league.

 

The Broncos made it to the playoffs long before Manning arrived, with Tim Tebow if you remember.. he chose that team because it was so loaded with talent... yet he goes there and everyone gives him all the credit for their wins

[amfootball]

Eh...agree to disagree.

 

Obviously I think it's as close to a guarantee you'll get in the NFL that they'll win it all with Brady there. I think it's a strong possibility they'd be good enough to do it with someone like, for example, Romo or Rivers too. Health pending. Much less someone like Rodgers who would be flat out scary with that team but he's great, not good or average.

Rodgers yes. Not sure anyone else.

[Moose Of Woe]

Weeks 1 - 5 the offensive line was swiss cheese and people here were saying "look at Brady without a good offensive line, hes just an average QB!"

 

Then they all start clicking and getting it together, and now its because Brady is behind a "fortress".  Brady gets the ball out quicker than almost any QB in the league...  That Lions game was all short bubble screens and "dink & dunk" passes because the offensive line wouldn't be able to give him a lot of time against the defensive line.

 

When the Pats are playing bad, its because Brady is just average and was never really good anyways.. when the Pats are playing good, its because they're the most "loaded" team in the league.

 

The Broncos made it to the playoffs long before Manning arrived, with Tim Tebow if you remember.. he chose that team because it was so loaded with talent... yet he goes there and everyone gives him all the credit for their wins

The OL was dealing with a new coach at the time as well, took them a few weeks to gel. I wasn't sold on it being that bad and waited to see how things unfolded. Sure enough, they gained consistency and now it's back to its usual form. Even when it was "bad" it wasn't horrendous...just not what the Patriots are used to fielding. I'd trade ours for the way NE's was playing in a heartbeat.

 

We've seen what happens when teams pressure Brady regularly. Most teams don't or can't. The line was playing poorly in those games, at least by NE standards, and Brady wasn't getting his usual time. He stunk. He has his usual time for the most part these days, and when he does he's near unstoppable.

 

The Broncos have nothing to do with NE.

[Moose Of Woe]

Rodgers yes. Not sure anyone else.

Actually it's RODGAHS. I misspelled it.

[amfootball]

Actually it's RODGAHS. I misspelled it.

I think Brady would do pretty good with Rodgahs team too. lol.

[Moose Of Woe]

I think Brady would do pretty good with Rodgahs team too. lol.

He'd do well almost anywhere. Oakland I'm not sure. That's where greats go to die.

[ViriLudant]

Less than 2 minutes left in the game, Detroit with no timeouts left. They opted to further run up the score rather than take 3 knees and end the game. I don't really have a problem with it, but they were clearly running up the score at that point. They did the same thing in a number of games in 07 as well, so if the OP has an issue with Peyton for being a stat padder, he should certainly hate Brady as well. 07 was bordering on embarrassing with how hard Brady was trying to surpass Peyton's record

Here a fact many Colt fans try to neglect: Brady handed the ball off for 17 rushing TDs that season.

In '04, for Manning? 10.

[Shane Bond]

 

 

After watching Stafford lay an egg yesterday with Megatron and Tate, there is no way a QB like him would take this team to the bowl.

Did you see all the drops?.

[amfootball]

Did you see all the drops?.

Did you see him slide on fourth and 10 two yards short of the marker that he was running to on the sideline? Maybe the worst play of the season for any QB along with Flacco's earlier this year when he did not throw the ball away before half costing the Ravens a FG. 

[Shane Bond]

Did you see him slide on fourth and 10 two yards short of the marker that he was running to on the sideline? Maybe the worst play of the season for any QB along with Flacco's earlier this year when he did not throw the ball away before half costing the Ravens a FG.

How many QBs can run that far?. And that one play, he is all bad?

[amfootball]

How many QBs can run that far?. And that one play, he is all bad?

Huh? He had an open field in front of him. He was gliding toward the sideline untouched and inexplicably went into the hook slide two yards before the first down. That play officially ended the game. They were driving inside the Pats 25 only down 18 with 12 minutes to go. Had he picked up that first down and they punched it in it would have been an 11 point game with a ton of time to go.

[GoPats]

Like I said he puts that team over the top, but they're a great team good enough to win it all without him there. Mind you I'm not saying Geno Smith could do it lol......

Gronk is the other player who puts them over the top. You could argue he's MvP of the entire league.

 

You really could. Whether it's his blocking or his pass catching or merely his presence and how it opens things up for everyone else, he's as important to the Patriots' offense right now as Brady. 

[GoPats]

No, I did not watch the ball game.  I was asking in general because to me they seem very similar.

Not that I care in the least about either.  You have 60 minutes in every game to play football so why not play as hard as you can for all of them?  If the opponent is unable to stop you then that is their problem.

 

You do realize it was the Lions who were taking the knee though, right? I mean, the guy said, "Yeah I cut him." Which is illegal. So you're OK with this, but did you have a problem with Gronkowski "throwing (Sergio Brown) out of the club?"

 

These situations could not be more different. If the Colts were stomping the Patriots and Gronk did what he did on the final play of the game, I guarantee you every Patriots fan I know would have condemned it. 

[Blue Horseshoe]

You do realize it was the Lions who were taking the knee though, right? I mean, the guy said, "Yeah I cut him." Which is illegal. So you're OK with this, but did you have a problem with Gronkowski "throwing (Sergio Brown) out of the club?"

 

These situations could not be more different. If the Colts were stomping the Patriots and Gronk did what he did on the final play of the game, I guarantee you every Patriots fan I know would have condemned it. 

 

No I did not know that because as I said I did not watch the ball game.  I never said anything about that play.

When have I ever said I was OK with dirty play which breaks rules?  Feel free to find a single instance of me being for cheap shots.  In the passage you quoted I was referring to running up the score vs stat padding and I said they are very similar and that I could not care less about either of them. 

[GoPats]

No I did not know that because as I said I did not watch the ball game.  I never said anything about that play.

When have I ever said I was OK with dirty play which breaks rules?  Feel free to find a single instance of me being for cheap shots.  In the passage you quoted I was referring to running up the score vs stat padding and I said they are very similar and that I could not care less about either of them. 

 

I was only addressing your "seem similar to me" comment. Seriously just take a look at the GIFs. They should tell you all you need to know. 

[Blue Horseshoe]

I was only addressing your "seem similar to me" comment. Seriously just take a look at the GIFs. They should tell you all you need to know. 

 

OK, I just watched it.  It was a cheap shot and should be fined just like Gronk's play was a cheap shot and was fined.

[Shane Bond]

Huh? He had an open field in front of him. He was gliding toward the sideline untouched and inexplicably went into the hook slide two yards before the first down. That play officially ended the game. They were driving inside the Pats 25 only down 18 with 12 minutes to go. Had he picked up that first down and they punched it in it would have been an 11 point game with a ton of time to go.

Defenders were closing on him.

That one play is far from why they lost.

[amfootball]

Defenders were closing on him.

That one play is far from why they lost.

Yeah, a bigger reason was him going 18 for 46.

[Shane Bond]

Yeah, a bigger reason was him going 18 for 46.

With all the drops

[amfootball]

With all the drops

Even without them he would have been well below 50 percent. Ouch.

[GoPats]

OK, I just watched it.  It was a cheap shot and should be fined just like Gronk's play was a cheap shot and was fined.

 

Gronk was penalized and fined. I agree that he should have been. But like I said last week, to quote Manning... "money well spent."  ;)

[NYColt]

Not just any QB could step in and do what hes doing.. Manning couldnt because there isnt enough offensive weapons for him.. Drew Brees maybe... Aaron Rodgers probably.. 

 

 

Again with the senseless Manning bashing and barely concealed vitriol. Sorry, no matter how much you keep saying that doesn't make it true. 

 

I point to 2009, the year the Colts almost went undefeated (largely on the strength of Manning's 7 4th Q comebacks) despite breaking in 2 first year starters in Garcon (who was extremely raw) and rookie Austin Collie and playing behind an inferior OL (other than an over-the-hill Jeff Saturday, I challenge you to name any starters on that line and challenge you to tell me which of those are still in the league) while also being saddled with the last-ranked rushing attack in the league (from yards per attempt perspective)

 

Manning also endured a devastating slew of injuries to the Colts in 2010 and made a star out of Blair White (who?) and after Dallas Clark went down, he turned lead-footed Tamme into a star (who had the most TE receptions in the league from the point he took over for Clark) while again also having the worst rushing attack in the league and one of the worst OLs of his entire tenure

 

I'm sorry but you're spouting nonsense and it's kinda creepy how obsessed you are with continually insulting Manning with your ill-thought out opinions and assumptions, which you apparently have confused for fact

 

And sorry, no one buys the "Brady has no weapons" myth because his current team is nowhere bereft of talent on offense. You have the league best TE (and possibly the most dominant in history), a great, tough-nosed slot WR who is doing everything Welker did, a decent #2 in LaFell who put up nice stats despite being on a run-heavy team with an inferior QB (the Broncos BTW actually had LaFell ranked higher than Sanders in their FA quest), Wright also led the league in rookie TE receptions despite playing on a dysfunctional team and a rookie QB.

 

Not sure what's up with Amendola but he seemed to have alot more dominating success with Bradford and backup QBs throwing to him than Brady. Not to mention Brady has the benefit of a balanced rushing attack which steam-rolled the Colts in the play-offs as well as this year. Brady's team has demonstrated a remarkable resilience in being able to survive poor play at the QB position (look up the Pats record when he has a QB rating below 90 and how often the Pats win vs when Manning has an off-day)

 

There is absolutely no basis in fact whatsoever that Manning wouldn't be able to get the most out of a competent supporting cast - while I don't subscribe to the myth that Manning "makes" his receivers, he certainly has proven time and time again and again in his career that he has demonstrated ability to get the best out of a receiver's abilities and put them into position to succeed. Your pathetic jab at Manning only demonstrates your skewered agenda and complete lack of credibility in the face of facts over a 15 year Hall of Fame career

[Shane Bond]

Even without them he would have been well below 50 percent. Ouch.

Not sure. It would have kept the drives alive. More points. He would have run more.