suh wants to leave detriot after the season

[Jason_]

Do you think he would fit our defense though? I mean I have given my opinion on that based on what I have seen from Paganos/Manuskys own defensive philosophy and alignments and such but your clearly more knowledgeable then me on this. I gave my opinion on how we would use him and it seems that for a talent like Suh (strictly speaking talent only) the coaching staff would fit him in well, For the record Im not so big on getting him.

I don't think scheme fit would be an issue from a skill set standpoint. As you said, the colts run a hybrid/multiple defense.

Persoanlly, I expect Jones to slide over to the strong side at 5 tech once redding retires. That would leave the 3 tech spot on the weakside for RJF, but suh would be even better there obviously. However, while he would do a lot of 1 gapping, there also would be some 2 gap responsibility for him and I'm not sure how open to that he would be.

[Gavin]

I don't think scheme fit would be an issue from a skill set standpoint. As you said, the colts run a hybrid/multiple defense.

Persoanlly, I expect Jones to slide over to the strong side at 5 tech once redding retires. That would leave the 3 tech spot on the weakside for RJF, but suh would be even better there obviously. However, while he would do a lot of 1 gapping, there also would be some 2 gap responsibility for him and I'm not sure how open to that he would be.

He would still be able to shed his block and take down the runner coming up the B gap while our OLB's  played the C gaps or vice versa, Just read-Shed Block-Attack Gap while OLB's reach to anything coming out around the Tackle

[Dustin]

Of course we should. He's a once in a generation talent.

 

 

Although, I have to wonder what the Lion's plan is; players like Ndamukong Suh are the exact reason why the franchise tag is in place

 

Tagging him gives him like a 20% increase on his last years salary, which was already like $20M.

[cm43sports]

Of course we should. He's a once in a generation talent.

 

 

 

Tagging him gives him like a 20% increase on his last years salary, which was already like $20M.

I'm sure they could work something out or give him the transition tag or something. You simply don't let players of his caliber walk away.

[Dustin]

I'm sure they could work something out or give him the transition tag or something. You simply don't let players of his caliber walk away.

 

They would still have to pay him a huge amount. And they would have all of their cap space tied up in 3 players. 

[cm43sports]

They would still have to pay him a huge amount. And they would have all of their cap space tied up in 3 players. 

If you believe its detrimental to the cap then you have to trade him so you still get something out of it. I think they messed up when they gave Calvin Johnson his contract. You can't pay that much of the cap to a wide receiver, no matter how good he is.

[Dustin]

If you believe its detrimental to the cap then you have to trade him so you still get something out of it.

 

They couldn't trade him without a huge cap hit. 

[NewColtsFan]

He would still be able to shed his block and take down the runner coming up the B gap while our OLB's  played the C gaps or vice versa, Just read-Shed Block-Attack Gap while OLB's reach to anything coming out around the Tackle

 

I have no idea why you continue to make arguments here.

 

Suh has no desire to play in our system.      Whether he can or not is not the point.

 

He doesn't want to.

[Dustin]

I have no idea why you continue to make arguments here.

 

Suh has no desire to play in our system.      Whether he can or not is not the point.

 

He doesn't want to.

 

Got a source for that?

[NewColtsFan]

Got a source for that?

 

A source that says he doesn't want to play for Indy?

 

Or that he wants to play for NY, Chicago and Dallas?      Because this is what I saw....   (I'll try to find it)

 

The Indy view is my own opinion............

[Dustin]

A source that says he doesn't want to play for Indy?

Or that he wants to play for NY, Chicago and Dallas? Because this is what I saw.... (I'll try to find it)

The Indy view is my own opinion............

A source that says he doesn't want to play in our system.

[NewColtsFan]

A source that says he doesn't want to play in our system.

 

That's my view....   he hasn't said or done anything that would lead me to believe he does want to play in our system.

 

In my previous posts with Gavin (which are in this thread for you to read)  I described Suh as a selfish "me-me-me" type of guy.  Not a selfless, team oriented person.     Our system is designed for the DL to do the dirty work and let the linebackers make the tackles and sacks.     That's not what Suh is looking for.

 

Plus,  he wants marketing and believes he can get it in New York.  

 

He doesn't strike me as an Indy guy....  a Horseshoe guy....

 

Your opinion may differ......   but that's my view....

 

 

Here's "a" story about Suh...    I don't think this was the first one I saw...

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/detroit-lions/post/_/id/11324/how-the-lions-would-move-on-without-suh

[Dustin]

Our system is designed for the DL to do the dirty work and let the linebackers make the tackles and sacks.   

 

That's not an accurate description of our defense at all. At least not for the role Suh would be hypothetically playing. Hell, we've been using Cory Redding as a stand up rusher for a lot of plays this year. 

 

We run a multiple defense. Not strictly a two-gap 34. Suh wouldn't be two-gapping here much more than he would be in Detriot. 

 

Besides, rumor has hit he was also interested in NYJ. Another 34 team. 

[NewColtsFan]

That's not an accurate description of our defense at all. At least not for the role Suh would be hypothetically playing. Hell, we've been using Cory Redding as a stand up rusher for a lot of plays this year. 

 

We run a multiple defense. Not strictly a two-gap 34. Suh wouldn't be two-gapping here much more than he would be in Detriot. 

 

Besides, rumor has hit he was also interested in NYJ. Another 34 team. 

 

The Jets 3-4 allows their 3-down lineman to make plays.    Kinda like Houston's.

 

Ours.....   not so much.

 

Our defense is not designed to make the DL the stars....   that went out with the 4-3 and the loss of Freeney/Mathis.

 

Mathis has gone to play OLB where our new system makes him the star.    Our linebackers make most of the plays.

 

Our defense is much more team oriented than Suh is used to playing.

 

And, one more thing...  Jets 3-4 takes place in New York.   Which tells you just how much the guy wants to be in New York.

 

I'll even add this idea......       do you see Ryan Grigson paying Suh at least 5 years and $100 Mill?    Because I think it would take at least that much to get him.     And we haven't even started with Luck.

 

Financially,  it's a non-starter.

 

I don't see a single area in the Colts favor.   Why should he pick the Colts over the other 4 choices?

 

Sorry,  but I don't see the fit at all.....

[Gavin]

That's my view....   he hasn't said or done anything that would lead me to believe he does want to play in our system.

 

In my previous posts with Gavin (which are in this thread for you to read)  I described Suh as a selfish "me-me-me" type of guy.  Not a selfless, team oriented person.     Our system is designed for the DL to do the dirty work and let the linebackers make the tackles and sacks.     That's not what Suh is looking for.

 

Plus,  he wants marketing and believes he can get it in New York.  

 

He doesn't strike me as an Indy guy....  a Horseshoe guy....

 

Your opinion may differ......   but that's my view....

 

 

Here's "a" story about Suh...    I don't think this was the first one I saw...

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/detroit-lions/post/_/id/11324/how-the-lions-would-move-on-without-suh

Maybe Suh is interested in those teams but that article says that those teams are interested in him not that he has any particular interest in them...However I did find this article though http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2213391-ndamukong-suh-contract-latest-rumors-and-speculation-on-negotiations-with-lions

 

Supposedly league sources say he has told people in the past that he would love to play with New York team

 

Meh regardless 12 more games to go and whether or not we go after Suh or not it wont make or break our offseason, Personally I have my eye on Da'Quan Bowers in a rotational role if he checks out healthy to replace Moala or Pendleton who both both will be not retained I think (Free Agents)

[NewColtsFan]

Maybe Suh is interested in those teams but that article says that those teams are interested in him not that he has any particular interest in them...However I did find this article though http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2213391-ndamukong-suh-contract-latest-rumors-and-speculation-on-negotiations-with-lions

 

Supposedly league sources say he has told people in the past that he would love to play with New York

 

Meh regardless 12 more games to go and whether or not we go after Suh or not it wont make or break our offseason, Personally I have my eye on Da'Quan Bowers in a rotational role if he checks out healthy to replace Moala or Pendleton who both both will be not retained I think (Free Agents)

 

The article says he has interest in both New York teams.

 

And that Dallas and Chicago would have interest in him.

 

For whatever it's worth,  that wasn't the way I read it in the first story that I saw....  

 

Isn't Da'Quan Bowers a 4-3 DE?    Is he big enough to play in a 3-4?

[Superman]

They couldn't trade him without a huge cap hit. 

 

Technically, they could tag him and then take whatever they could get for him. And they should, but I doubt it happens.

[Gavin]

The article says he has interest in both New York teams.

 

And that Dallas and Chicago would have interest in him.

 

For whatever it's worth,  that wasn't the way I read it in the first story that I saw....  

 

Isn't Da'Quan Bowers a 4-3 DE?    Is he big enough to play in a 3-4?

6'4" 288lbs, 6 pound difference between him and Quarles whos 294, anchors well the best I see watching him when asked to, shoots gaps well (explosive off the ball)......play recognition needs work I think but that's do to a lack of starts and consistent snaps in my opinion......10 starts so far in his career http://www.nfl.com/player/da%27quanbowers/2495475/draft

 

That's the scouting report on him as well

[Dustin]

Technically, they could tag him and then take whatever they could get for him. And they should, but I doubt it happens.

 

Yeah, but nobody would trade for a 1 year ~$25M rental. 

[NewColtsFan]

6'4" 288lbs, 6 pound difference between him and Quarles whos 294, anchors well the best I see watching him when asked to, shoots gaps well (explosive off the ball)......play recognition needs work I think but that's do to a lack of starts and consistent snaps in my opinion......10 starts so far in his career http://www.nfl.com/player/da%27quanbowers/2495475/draft

 

That's the scouting report on him as well

 

I looked at his career numbers across the board.....   I'm just not seeing what would have you excited (my word, not yours) over Bowers.....    he may be a diamond in the rough,  but he doesn't project as a guy who could come in and start.    He might be rotational guy, which is the point you made about him replacing Moala and Pendleton.

[Superman]

Yeah, but nobody would trade for a 1 year ~$25M rental.

The presumption is that the team trading for him would be working on a new contract. I forgot that his tag number is $25m, which is difficult to navigate, but I think he'd get that kind of money in a free agent deal anyways. Huge risk for the Lions trying to get someone to bit, and they'd have to clear the space to use the tag in the first place. So it's not as simple as I thought.

[Gavin]

I looked at his career numbers across the board.....   I'm just not seeing what would have you excited (my word, not yours) over Bowers.....    he may be a diamond in the rough,  but he doesn't project as a guy who could come in and start.    He might be rotational guy, which is the point you made about him replacing Moala and Pendleton.

Ability to shed blocks and acceleration off the ball, He is raw and it shows no doubt but the risk would be minimal since his production does not demand a big contract

[Dustin]

The Jets 3-4 allows their 3-down lineman to make plays.    Kinda like Houston's.

 

Ours.....   not so much.

 

 

Our line absolutely allows the d-lineman to make plays. Cory Redding has been making plays for 3 years. Suh would play the 3-tech position in our base 3-4 and kick in to the 3-tech in the 43 as well. With his athleticism we could use him situationally as an OLB, an edge rusher in our nickle package. There are plenty of ways to use him. There's no situation any competent coaching staff would waste his ability by making him 2-gap even ~15% of the time. 

 

I don't see a single area in the Colts favor.   Why should he pick the Colts over the other 4 choices?

 

Sorry,  but I don't see the fit at all.....

 

 

I'm not sure. I never he implied he should or would. I was combating the idea that "he doesn't want to play in our system" which has no factualy basis. 

[Gavin]

Our line absolutely allows the d-lineman to make plays. Cory Redding has been making plays for 3 years. Suh would play the 3-tech position in our base 3-4 and kick in to the 3-tech in the 43 as well. With his athleticism we could use him situationally as an OLB, an edge rusher in our nickle package. There are plenty of ways to use him. There's no situation any competent coaching staff would waste his ability by making him 2-gap even ~15% of the time. 

 

 

I'm not sure. I never he implied he should or would. I was combating the idea that "he doesn't want to play in our system" which has no factualy basis. 

Whoa whoa now, Im with ya on all this...But OLB?....Im gonna have to watch him a lot more before I get on board with that

[Dustin]

Whoa whoa now, Im with ya on all this...But OLB?....Im gonna have to watch him a lot more before I get on board with that

 

We're doing it with Redding. And I don't think it's a question Suh is more physically talented. 

[Gavin]

We're doing it with Redding. And I don't think it's a question Suh is more physically talented. 

you mean lining Suh up standing over the middle in the B or A gap or actual OLB? Cause I cant think of a play off the top of my head where he lined up as an OLB. We stunted him to get a sack from I believe it was the b gap today to outside the LT other then that which he got a sack from plus we do stand him up over the A gap some

[Dustin]

you mean lining Suh up standing over the middle in the B or A gap or actual OLB?

 

Suh would be able to do both, situationally of course, so we could get all of our pass rusher on the field.

[NewColtsFan]

Our line absolutely allows the d-lineman to make plays. Cory Redding has been making plays for 3 years. Suh would play the 3-tech position in our base 3-4 and kick in to the 3-tech in the 43 as well. With his athleticism we could use him situationally as an OLB, an edge rusher in our nickle package. There are plenty of ways to use him. There's no situation any competent coaching staff would waste his ability by making him 2-gap even ~15% of the time. 

 

 

I'm not sure. I never he implied he should or would. I was combating the idea that "he doesn't want to play in our system" which has no factualy basis. 

 

It has no basis in fact because he hasn't been interviewed saying as much.   I don't expect him to say anything negative about any particular city,  only positive comments about the cities he does want to play in.    And I clearly said in several posts that it was my opinion.

 

As to your view of our defense and what it allows DL's to do..........

 

I'll be respectful and just say I disagree with almost everything you said.....   and I'll leave it at that....

[Valpo2004]

If the guy wants to play for a big market team there is no way he goes to Indy.  It's one of the smallest market teams in the NFL behind maybe Green Bay.

[Jason_]

It has no basis in fact because he hasn't been interviewed saying as much.   I don't expect him to say anything negative about any particular city,  only positive comments about the cities he does want to play in.    And I clearly said in several posts that it was my opinion.

 

As to your view of our defense and what it allows DL's to do..........

 

I'll be respectful and just say I disagree with almost everything you said.....   and I'll leave it at that....

 

I'm not sure what there is to disagree with.  Dustin is right, the colts DL front is essentially a hybrid of 1-gap/2-gap.  Redding lines up on the strong side at 5 tech but Jones/RJF line up on the weak side in the 3 tech.  Suh primarily plays the 3-tech so Suh playing on the weakside of the Colts DL wouldn't be all that different from him playing 3tech in the Lions' defense.  There would be some (not much, but some) 2-gap responsibility for him from time to time but he'd be shooting gaps far more often than trying to occupy blockers.  Then consider that the Colts play a lot of 4 down linemen in nickel and dime sub packages anyway and that still puts Suh right back in his natural 3tech line-up.  

 

So in summary, Redding and Chapman are the 2-gappers while the weakside DT is more of a 1-gapper.  For what it's worth, I don't think "gapper" is a word.

[NewColtsFan]

I'm not sure what there is to disagree with.  Dustin is right, the colts DL front is essentially a hybrid of 1-gap/2-gap.  Redding lines up on the strong side at 5 tech but Jones/RJF line up on the weak side in the 3 tech.  Suh primarily plays the 3-tech so Suh playing on the weakside of the Colts DL wouldn't be all that different from him playing 3tech in the Lions' defense.  There would be some (not much, but some) 2-gap responsibility for him from time to time but he'd be shooting gaps far more often than trying to occupy blockers.  Then consider that the Colts play a lot of 4 down linemen in nickel and dime sub packages anyway and that still puts Suh right back in his natural 3tech line-up.  

 

So in summary, Redding and Chapman are the 2-gappers while the weakside DT is more of a 1-gapper.  For what it's worth, I don't think "gapper" is a word.

 

There's a 4-3 defense.

 

There's a 3-4 1-gap defense that teams like Houston plays.  (not just what the Jets do, but their DL's make tons of plays)

 

There's a 3-4 2-gap defense that the Colts play.    How much hybrid we play is open to discussion.   How many opportunities our DL's have is also open to discussion.

 

But, of the three defenses listed above,  I believe our defense is the least attractive to someone like Suh.    If offers him the fewest opportunities to make plays.    Because we ask our DL's to occupy OL so the LB's can make tackles.   

 

Beyond all that,  there is also the grocery list of other reasons why Suh would be a poor fit here in Indy.

 

But I'm perfectly comfortable saying our system is the least friendly to Suh.

[Superman]

Suh could play in any front, and if the coaches are smart, they'd deploy him in a way that maximizes his potential. If that means you adjust your approach, so be it. If you're going to pay the money for that guy, then use him properly.

 

But I do agree with NCF, in that the way we use our linemen would probably be least attractive to him. Doesn't mean we wouldn't be open to adjust to use him more effectively, but based on what we do now, it's not as good of a fit as some other teams.

[BOTT]

Stop the presses!! A big time athlete is coming up on free agency and the media is saying that a NY team is the front runner.....who would have thought!

[Jason_]

There's a 4-3 defense.

 

There's a 3-4 1-gap defense that teams like Houston plays.  (not just what the Jets do, but their DL's make tons of plays)

 

There's a 3-4 2-gap defense that the Colts play.    How much hybrid we play is open to discussion.   How many opportunities our DL's have is also open to discussion.

 

 I understand all of that.  I really do.  I also agree that of the available defenses, a 2-gap 3-4 would be least likely to appeal to Suh.  However, there are multiple articles detailing the differences between a standard 2-gap 3-4 defense and the Colts/Jets/Ravens hybrid defense.  There may be other teams that run a similar hybrid but those are the primary 3 I know of.  

 

But that's just the base defense anyway.  What percentage of snaps do the Colts spend in the base formation vs. Nickel/Dime/Sub packages?  The biggest thing though, is that if Grigson brings in a guy as talented as Suh, then Pagano/Manusky will figure out the best way to use him.  So while I agree, a straight up 2-gap team would be the least likely to be attractive to Suh, we are not a strict 2-gap team and he would have plenty of play-making opportunities.  In fact, I would say that the Colts' approach has made it clear they would like to have some playmaking ability on the DL by bringing in guys like Redding, RJF and Jones.  

 

I have no idea why you continue to make arguments here.

 

Suh has no desire to play in our system.      Whether he can or not is not the point.

 

He doesn't want to.

 

^ this was an incredibly poorly worded post. 

[DougDew]

Suh's character problems are exaggerated. He came into the league under tremendous pressure to dominate the NFL like he did in college and couldn't do it. He acted childishly to the pressure.

Now that he has settled into non-superstar status, I think he would behave just fine.

But we just signed Art Jones. That's our money spent on DL. No thanks, I'll pass on suh.

[Dustin]

Suh's character problems are exaggerated. He came into the league under tremendous pressure to dominate the NFL like he did in college and couldn't do it. He acted childishly to the pressure.

Now that he has settled into non-superstar status, I think he would behave just fine.

But we just signed Art Jones. That's our money spent on DL. No thanks, I'll pass on suh.

He's been dominant since he came into the league.

[Gavin]

He's been dominant since he came into the league.

Meh, Suh has been great 2 years but good the rest, Watt is dominant

[Dustin]

Meh, Suh has been great 2 years but good the rest, Watt is dominant

Suh has been dominant every year. He's the 2nd or 3rd best 3-tech in the league.

Just because Watt has been better doesn't mean Suh hasn't been great. Watt has just been more dominant. There's nobody to compare to him.

[Gavin]

Suh has been dominant every year. He's the 2nd or 3rd best 3-tech in the league.

Just because Watt has been better doesn't mean Suh hasn't been great. Watt has just been more dominant. There's nobody to compare to him.

I think he has had 2 great years and 2 good years, I think he is a great player...But I would not call him dominant personally though he has showed he can be

[chad72]

Giants will let Jason Pierre Paul walk due to his injury history and bring Suh in, I feel