Peyton Manning Voted No.1 By The Players

[GoPats]

Players not fitting into NE system is not the player's fault. We cant keep complaining we didnt have weapons.

 

Its better to say the weapons didnt fit our system or we couldnt mould them. 

 

When Carlon Palmer can have 7 over 1000 yards with Chad, there is no excuse.

 

I would be more inclined to agree a bit if the evidence wasn't overwhelmingly against you here. Chad Johnson is now playing in the CFL and Brandon Lloyd sat out last year and will probably be cut in SF. They actually look more productive in NE compared to what happened after they left here. Lots of factors contribute to a player's production. 

 

Let's look at Ochocinco. His last high-end-productive season was 2007 (93 catches, 1440 yards). After that, he had 53/540 in 2008 (didn't play a full season), 72/1047 in 2009, and 67/831 in 2010. What do you see there? I see declining numbers. And with a WR, we know that sometimes happens very quickly and suddenly. 

 

Point is, you're making it sound like Brady took a perpetual All-Pro and made him garbage. Which is not what happened. Chad never figured things out here, as much as he wanted to. He could not get his head around the offense.

 

I don't know why you're trying to make anything an "excuse." It's not, it's just fact. The Patriots - speaking in overall terms - have not had a very high level of talent at the receiver position during Brady's career. Some years have been better than others, yes. But looking at it objectively, he has not had the type of talent to work with that some of his contemporaries - including Manning - have had. That's not an excuse, nor is it a criticism of Manning. It's an inarguable fact that every fan of the NFL without an agenda would recognize. 

 

Manning's had better talent around him.

 

Brady's had a better coach.

 

Manning's played more indoors.

 

Brady's had (generally) better defenses.

 

See how it works? Each guy has his advantages and disadvantages. 

 

 

 

It's like saying Brady has had better coaching throughout his career. Of course that's true, and most would agree. But that doesn't "count against him" when you evaluate his career. 

[Superman]

Is there anyone posting that doesn't feel that Brady and Manning are among the all-time greats at QB? 

 

Is there anyone posting that feels Rogers is among the all-time greats?

 

Why is it so hard to evaluate Rodgers play right now without comparing him to the overall careers of two of the greatest to ever play the position?

 

Of course, full comparison, Rodgers isn't on the level of Brady and Manning. That's really not at issue, though, otherwise you're giving the all-time greats credit for time served, rather than evaluating their current level of play. Since there is no debate or confusion about how Rodgers' career measures up to those of Brady and Manning -- even among die-hard Packers fans, I'm sure -- there's little reason to consider that angle. Rodgers < Brady/Manning, obviously.

 

What most people are talking about in this thread, and others from time to time, is the current level of play among NFL QBs. And if you consider the last several seasons from the top guys in the league, I see very little distinction, if any, between the top four -- Brady, Brees, Manning and Rodgers (alphabetical order, not ranked). 

[Shane Bond]

I would be more inclined to agree a bit if the evidence wasn't overwhelmingly against you here. Chad Johnson is now playing in the CFL and Brandon Lloyd sat out last year and will probably be cut in SF. They actually look more productive in NE compared to what happened after they left here. Lots of factors contribute to a player's production. 

 

Let's look at Ochocinco. His last high-end-productive season was 2007 (93 catches, 1440 yards). After that, he had 53/540 in 2008 (didn't play a full season), 72/1047 in 2009, and 67/831 in 2010. What do you see there? I see declining numbers. And with a WR, we know that sometimes happens very quickly and suddenly. 

 

Point is, you're making it sound like Brady took a perpetual All-Pro and made him garbage. Which is not what happened. Chad never figured things out here, as much as he wanted to. He could not get his head around the offense.

 

I don't know why you're trying to make anything an "excuse." It's not, it's just fact. The Patriots - speaking in overall terms - have not had a very high level of talent at the receiver position during Brady's career. Some years have been better than others, yes. But looking at it objectively, he has not had the type of talent to work with that some of his contemporaries - including Manning - have had. That's not an excuse, nor is it a criticism of Manning. It's an inarguable fact that every fan of the NFL without an agenda would recognize. 

 

Manning's had better talent around him.

 

Brady's had a better coach.

 

Manning's played more indoors.

 

Brady's had (generally) better defenses.

 

See how it works? Each guy has his advantages and disadvantages. 

 

 

 

It's like saying Brady has had better coaching throughout his career. Of course that's true, and most would agree. But that doesn't "count against him" when you evaluate his career. 

We need to look from where Chad came from. I typed it earlier and i will again for you. 7 times over 1000 yards. One season with NE 276 yards. He is one example.

 

I am re-iterating, this lack of weapon reasoning never make sense. You were given weapons and you didn't know how to use. These players, when they have reached to play at this level aren't garbage.

 

Manning had weapons but a lot of them he moulded and made them who they are. Chad Johnson with Manning, i guarantee its more than 276 yards.

 

Arguing that Brady has a better coach is easy. There is no debate there. But this lack of weapon is part of what NE offense is not the fault of players.

[GoPats]

We need to look from where Chad came from. I typed it earlier and i will again for you. 7 times over 1000 yards. One season with NE 276 yards. He is one example.

 

I am re-iterating, this lack of weapon reasoning never make sense. You were given weapons and you didn't know how to use. These players, when they have reached to play at this level aren't garbage.

 

Manning had weapons but a lot of them he moulded and made them who they are. Chad Johnson with Manning, i guarantee its more than 276 yards.

 

Arguing that Brady has a better coach is easy. There is no debate there. But this lack of weapon is part of what NE offense is not the fault of players.

 

 

... 

 

So one objective question (coaching) is not a debate (or even debatable, it sounds), but the other (the talent around them) is?

 

Are you even serious or are you just trolling at this point? If so, you got me. Nice job. 

 

(Manning has had better receivers. Period. And everyone knows it. And it's not a "knock" against him.)

[Shane Bond]

... 

 

So one objective question (coaching) is not a debate (or even debatable, it sounds), but the other (the talent around them) is?

 

Are you even serious or are you just trolling at this point? If so, you got me. Nice job. 

 

(Manning has had better receivers. Period. And everyone knows it. And it's not a "knock" against him.)

Huh why would I joke?.

Try to stick to topic. Do you even try to understand what I say.

I just gave an example and explained and you deviate from topic. Figured.

[GoPats]

Huh why would I joke?.

Try to stick to topic. Do you even try to understand what I say.

I just gave an example and explained and you deviate from topic. Figured.

 

No Shane, I'm reading every word. Have you considered the possibility that some of us have indeed been following along and simply think your views on this are way off? Because you immediately assume that any disagreement means that someone must not be following you. 

 

Your example was Chad Johnson, which I already responded to. Yes he had seven 1000-yard seasons, only one of which came during the four years prior to coming to the Patriots (and that was "barely" at that mark, at 1047 yards). He was an aging receiver at that time, with declining physical skills. His last real good year was 2007, and he came to NE in 2011. Once those skills were basically gone, he had to rely on his mind and the cerebral part of the game, which he's proven incapable of doing. In New England and other places as well. 

 

If Chad had left NE after one year and returned to 75-catch, 1000-yard production, you'd have a point. But he didn't. 

 

Let's try something different. 

 

Can you name just one receiver who has been in NE, left, and saw his production go UP elsewhere, after he left the Patriots? I honestly can't think of a single one. Jabar Gaffney maybe? But he wasn't really a starter here, and had only a minor role. 

 

Deion Branch was traded after holding out and was average at best in Seattle. David Givens left and his career was basically over (in fairness, partially due to injury). Reche Caldwell's career year in 2006 in NE was never duplicated elsewhere. Randy Moss faded into obscurity. Even Wes Welker had a good year in Denver but statistically still dropped off from 2012.

 

These are facts, not an opinion. 

[Shane Bond]

No Shane, I'm reading every word. Have you considered the possibility that some of us have indeed been following along and simply think your views on this are way off? Because you immediately assume that any disagreement means that someone must not be following you.

Your example was Chad Johnson, which I already responded to. Yes he had seven 1000-yard seasons, only one of which came during the four years prior to coming to the Patriots (and that was "barely" at that mark, at 1047 yards). He was an aging receiver at that time, with declining physical skills. His last real good year was 2007, and he came to NE in 2011. Once those skills were basically gone, he had to rely on his mind and the cerebral part of the game, which he's proven incapable of doing. In New England and other places as well.

If Chad had left NE after one year and returned to 75-catch, 1000-yard production, you'd have a point. But he didn't.

Let's try something different.

Can you name just one receiver who has been in NE, left, and saw his production go UP elsewhere, after he left the Patriots? I honestly can't think of a single one. Jabar Gaffney maybe? But he wasn't really a starter here, and had only a minor role.

Deion Branch was traded after holding out and was average at best in Seattle. David Givens left and his career was basically over (in fairness, partially due to injury). Reche Caldwell's career year in 2006 in NE was never duplicated elsewhere. Randy Moss faded into obscurity. Even Wes Welker had a good year in Denver but statistically still dropped off from 2012.

These are facts, not an opinion.

You are ignoring and missing the point but I will give an example.

Wes Welker with 14 games over 10 TDs. Manning teached other receivers to run routes. Yeah, he knows how to do it.

Moving on buddy. You are in denial.

[GoPats]

You are ignoring and missing the point but I will give an example.

Wes Welker with 14 games over 10 TDs. Manning teached other receivers to run routes. Yeah, he knows how to do it.

Moving on buddy. You are in denial.

 

What point am I ignoring? That Chad Johnson was (in your opinion) still producing at an elite level in 2010 and 2011 (even though he clearly was not)? 

 

You're too much man.  ;)

 

No worries though, let's move on as suggested...

[amfootball]

You are ignoring and missing the point but I will give an example.

Wes Welker with 14 games over 10 TDs. Manning teached other receivers to run routes. Yeah, he knows how to do it.

Moving on buddy. You are in denial.

He had the 10 Tds of which most were dinks from inside the 10 yard line. He also 73 catches/ 778 yards. His previous two seasons NE he had 122 and 118 catches and 9 TDs/1569 and 6TDs/1354 yards. He is a terrible example to try to make your point.

[ViriLudant]

We need to look from where Chad came from. I typed it earlier and i will again for you. 7 times over 1000 yards. One season with NE 276 yards. He is one example.

I am re-iterating, this lack of weapon reasoning never make sense. You were given weapons and you didn't know how to use. These players, when they have reached to play at this level aren't garbage.

Manning had weapons but a lot of them he moulded and made them who they are. Chad Johnson with Manning, i guarantee its more than 276 yards.

Arguing that Brady has a better coach is easy. There is no debate there. But this lack of weapon is part of what NE offense is not the fault of players.

For the nth time , you seriously don't get it.

Chad Jackson was washed up when he arrived in NE.

Not only that, but he was not intelligent enough to get the complicated Patriots' playbook.

[ViriLudant]

You are ignoring and missing the point but I will give an example.

Wes Welker with 14 games over 10 TDs. Manning teached other receivers to run routes. Yeah, he knows how to do it.

Moving on buddy. You are in denial.

Gee, this seems to be a pattern with you, as we saw with Superman.

You can't reason out an argument, so you say the other person just can't get your poorly laid out argument.

Fact: Chad Jackson hasn't been good since 2007.

Fact: Peyton has always had great weapons.

[oldunclemark]

Joe is 9-4. It was the first time he missed the playoffs. In six seasons, the Ravens have been to the playoffs five times, three AFC title games with one win, and a Super Bowl title where he was MVP with 11 touchdowns and no interceptions. He is 2-1 against Brady on New England , and had led his team to many big victories on the road. His ability to throw the ball 70 yards beat the Broncos in Denver. Rodgers is 5-4 in the playoffs by the way.

Not to diminish Peyton because I like and respect him and have no problem with this poll. I just don't think Joe gets enough respect for what he has done.

It was not meant as a knock against Flacco.. His 9-4 record is quality.

Its just that oversimplifying any arguement weakens it.

Joe Flacco entered the NFL with a great defensive team and he capitalized on that, to his credit....Baltimore didn't make the post-season this past year, not ebcauser of him but because the defense was dismantled by injury and retirement.

If we believe that a QB has a lot to do with winning important games.....shouldn't the Manning story begin with 12 playoff appearances and then graduate to the lack of titles. ?

Its way too simple to pick and choose which factors matter .

Championshiphip game 'appearances' is a titled stat, isnt it....Peyton has 2 Super Bowl appearences...but he is 1-2

Joe Flacco is 1-2 in AFC title games, right? But that doesn't sound as good as '3 AFC title game appearances'?

[The Old Crow]

It was not meant as a knock against Flacco.. His 9-4 record is quality.

Its just that oversimplifying any arguement weakens it.

Joe Flacco entered the NFL with a great defensive team and he capitalized on that, to his credit....Baltimore didn't make the post-season this past year, not ebcauser of him but because the defense was dismantled by injury and retirement.

If we believe that a QB has a lot to do with winning important games.....shouldn't the Manning story begin with 12 playoff appearances and then graduate to the lack of titles. ?

Its way too simple to pick and choose which factors matter .

Championshiphip game 'appearances' is a titled stat, isnt it....Peyton has 2 Super Bowl appearences...but he is 1-2

Joe Flacco is 1-2 in AFC title games, right? But that doesn't sound as good as '3 AFC title game appearances'?

I'm not trying to diminish Peyton, or compare him to Flacco, I just think Joe rates a bit more respect . Joe should actually be 2-1 in AFC title games, as he thoroughly outplayed Brady in 2011, but was betrayed by the Lee Evans drop that should have won the game. I think Peyton is just on another level, and much more is expected of him

than Joe , fairly or not.

[Shane Bond]

He had the 10 Tds of which most were dinks from inside the 10 yard line. He also 73 catches/ 778 yards. His previous two seasons NE he had 122 and 118 catches and 9 TDs/1569 and 6TDs/1354 yards. He is a terrible example to try to make your point.

Well Manning was busy distributing to his other trained men not throwing to one guy to rescue his life.

[Shane Bond]

Gee, this seems to be a pattern with you, as we saw with Superman.

You can't reason out an argument, so you say the other person just can't get your poorly laid out argument.

Fact: Chad Jackson hasn't been good since 2007.

Fact: Peyton has always had great weapons.

Yeah you are so smart to find that logic.

 

When are you going to learn to just stick to a topic without trying to discuss a person's character, trying to make deragatory statements in personalities. I call them cheap but yeah apparently thats the style which is widely accepted here as i can see Superman liking your post.

[Shane Bond]

For the nth time , you seriously don't get it.

Chad Jackson was washed up when he arrived in NE.

Not only that, but he was not intelligent enough to get the complicated Patriots' playbook.

Yeah, you will never get it.

 

You have the answer in your statement. Its your playbook which is complicated. Not the players and your team is not capable of teaching them.

[Shane Bond]

I'm not trying to diminish Peyton, or compare him to Flacco, I just think Joe rates a bit more respect . Joe should actually be 2-1 in AFC title games, as he thoroughly outplayed Brady in 2011, but was betrayed by the Lee Evans drop that should have won the game. I think Peyton is just on another level, and much more is expected of him

than Joe , fairly or not.

I agree. 

 

Joe deserves more respect. He should have been 3-0 against Brady and i believe all those games were played in NE.

 

That drop was miserable to watch. I mean he had the ball for few seconds and relaxed.

 

I have a lot of respect for Ravens. Class organisation.

[BloodyChamp]

I thought it was a dang catch...what was the ref waiting for before raising his hands? A spike?

[Shane Bond]

I thought it was a dang catch...what was the ref waiting for before raising his hands? A spike?

I felt it was a catch too.

[The Old Crow]

I felt it was a catch too.

Had it been Brady to Welker or something in a similar situation , you know it would have been ruled a catch. Who else gets a Tuck rule call on a known fumble ?

[Shane Bond]

Had it been Brady to Welker or something in a similar situation , you know it would have been ruled a catch. Who else gets a Tuck rule call on a known fumble ?

I agree. Its a bogus league sometimes.

 

Ravens thoroughly deserved to go to SB that year. I felt so bad for the Ravens.

[amfootball]

Well Manning was busy distributing to his other trained men not throwing to one guy to rescue his life.

Great so we agree that Welker is yet another failed example in your attempt to prove a fallacy.

[amfootball]

Had it been Brady to Welker or something in a similar situation , you know it would have been ruled a catch. Who else gets a Tuck rule call on a known fumble ?

Oh stop already. You are better than this.

[The Old Crow]

I agree. Its a bogus league sometimes.

Ravens thoroughly deserved to go to SB that year. I felt so bad for the Ravens.

I really felt they had a better chance of beating the Giants than the Patriots did that year. That being said, had they won in 2011, they wouldn't have repeated in 2012 because Ozzie would have blown up the team a year earlier. The 2012 win took away some of the sting of the year before.

It was also nice to stick it to Kraft the next year, who although a great owner, hung a picture of the Cundiff miss in his office. Always fun playing those guys, and good games.

[The Old Crow]

Oh stop already. You are better than this.

I guess I'm getting cocky with the Orioles in first place ! Lol

[amfootball]

I guess I'm getting cocky with the Orioles in first place ! Lol

Ha,ha. Yeah good for the Orioles. The Sox look like the team that everyone expected to be last year. Thank goodness we have the World Series to sooth the frustrations.

[ViriLudant]

Yeah, you will never get it.

You have the answer in your statement. Its your playbook which is complicated. Not the players and your team is not capable of teaching them.

Yeah, that must be why NE had the third best offense in the NFL last year, and the #1 the year before.

#LogicFail

[Shane Bond]

Great so we agree that Welker is yet another failed example in your attempt to prove a fallacy.

How is he a failed attempt?.

 

Why is so hard for you group of guys to accept that NE offense is not for every player. Stop blaming the players, its the offense system which is complex.

[Shane Bond]

Yeah, that must be why NE had the third best offense in the NFL last year, and the #1 the year before.

#LogicFail

Then why whine about lack of weapons and that still doesnt mean you didnt have weapons.

[The Old Crow]

Ha,ha. Yeah good for the Orioles. The Sox look like the team that everyone expected to be last year. Thank goodness we have the World Series to sooth the frustrations.

I've been waiting since 1983, but at least I saw 1966 and 1970 also. Been a long time.

[amfootball]

How is he a failed attempt?.

 

Why is so hard for you group of guys to accept that NE offense is not for every player. Stop blaming the players, its the offense system which is complex.

Ok, now you are maybe a little closer to the truth. It is the complexity that has made it virtually a top three offense since 2007. This is far different than blaming Brady or saying he can't develop players. At times Bill and Co like in the case with Johnson misjudged his ability to pick up the O. Of course this is not peculiar to the Pats as many players just don't fit for one reason or another. That being said, that does mean by any stretch that Brady had the same talent at the skills positions as Manning. Even if Johnson or heaven forbid Doug Gabriel or Joey Galloway could have picked up the O they were players that were never going to match Harrison or Wayne's production.

[ViriLudant]

Then why whine about lack of weapons?.

Just because Brady often makes gold out of dross doesn't mean that he would benefit from having better weapons, a la Manning.

There's a reason why Brady had the best offense in the NFL in '07, '10, and '11. He had the weapons. Last year, especially when Gronk was out, Brady had to work with all rookies and two small slot WRs.

Yet he still did well.

What does this mean? Clearly Brady has to do more than Peyton, as he has MUCH less to work with.

[Shane Bond]

Ok, now you are maybe a little closer to the truth. It is the complexity that has made it virtually a top three offense since 2007. This is far different than blaming Brady or saying he can't develop players. At times Bill and Co like in the case with Johnson misjudged his ability to pick up the O. Of course this is not peculiar to the Pats as many players just don't fit for one reason or another. That being said, that does mean by any stretch that Brady had the same talent at the skills positions as Brady. Even if Johnson or heaven forbid Doug Gabriel or Joey Galloway could have picked up they were players that were never going to match Harrison or Wayne's production.

But AMF, point is we cant say we didnt have weapons also. All i am saying is some the weapons you had, the NE offense team couldnt mould them.

[amfootball]

But AMF, point is we cant say we didnt have weapons also. All i am saying is some the weapons you had, the NE offense team couldnt mould them.

No one is saying the Pats did not have any weapons. Just not to the level of Manning. That really is a fact just like Brady had the better defensive players from 01-06.

[Shane Bond]

Just because Brady often makes gold out of dross doesn't mean that he would benefit from having better weapons, a la Manning.

There's a reason why Brady had the best offense in the NFL in '07, '10, and '11. He had the weapons. Last year, especially when Gronk was out, Brady had to work with all rookies and two small slot WRs.

Yet he still did well.

What does this mean? Clearly Brady has to do more than Peyton, as he has MUCH less to work with.

Read what i wrote to AMF.

[Shane Bond]

No one is saying the Pats did not have any weapons. Just not to the level of Manning. That really is a fact just like Brady had the better defensive players from 01-06.

i have said Marvin and Reggie are world class earlier but thats about it which Brady got with Randy Moss and Welker.

 

But there were Garcons and Collies and others whom have Peyton's moulding. We didnt see that with several receivers who entered and exited NE is all i am saying. 

[chad72]

I am feeling like T.O. watching and hearing all this stuff

[amfootball]

i have said Marvin and Reggie are world class earlier but thats about it which Brady got with Randy Moss and Welker.

 

But there were Garcons and Collies and others whom have Peyton's moulding. We didnt see that with several receivers who entered and exited NE is all i am saying. 

Who else does there need to be? Marvin and Reggie played with him for 10 years. Brady only had Moss and Welker together for 2 seasons as he did not play in 2008 and he got Moss at age 30 not in his early 20's. Imagine if Brady DID have Moss and Welker for 10 years what they may have accomplished together.

 

And Manning also had Dallas Clark and Edgerin James as well.

[Shane Bond]

Who else does there need to be? Marvin and Reggie played with him for 10 years. Brady only had Moss and Welker together for 2 seasons as he did not play in 2008 and he got Moss at age 30 not in his early 20's. Imagine if Brady DID have Moss and Welker for 10 years what they may have accomplished together.

 

And Manning also had Dallas Clark and Edgerin James as well.

We cant go into imagining game here. He had other receivers who were good enough is the point. You dont need Welker and Randy every year. Heck they never won a SB with them. Other underrated part about this conversation is the OL.

[amfootball]

We cant go into imagining game here. He had other receivers who were good enough is the point. You dont need Welker and Randy every year. Heck they never won a SB with them. Other underrated part about this conversation is the OL.

I lost you. I am just talking the level of skill players. I don't disagree that Brady had good receivers that he often made good enough to win multiple championships with and many of those players were defensive but he did not have the level of offensive skill players as Manning. I am not sure why there is such a sticking point for you. It really does not take away from Manning and even Colts fans agree with this point just like Pats fans agree Brady had the better defensive players and better HC.