The Patriot Way

[ztboiler]

Some say the Pats overdrafted Solder. The Cowboys supposedly overdrafted Frederick. But when you get it right, no one cares. And like you said, the Pats have built their line through the draft, then retained those players. Not gone out and spent money on guys.

 

Where I differ with you is specifically with regard to the Colts. We have issues along the interior of the line. Not sure about Donald Thomas at LG, because the sample size was so small and because he's never been a full season starter, but he did well last year as a spot starter with the Pats and this year early on for us. I'm willing to pencil him in. I think you and I agree that Thornton is physically gifted and can handle RG, so long as he gets some quality C play. And we agree that our starting C is terrible, and the other option we've had is only marginally better. I am in favor of fixing this issue at C, which is the glaring need on the line right now, via free agency. I don't want to spend $8m/year on a FA, but it would sure be comforting to know that we have a capable C moving forward, as I think it would greatly improve the quality of the line play.

 

TL;DR? I want a FA center this offseason, even though I agree that it's typically better to build through the draft.

Let's say we tie up a cap # of $9M in Mack, $7M Cherilus, $3.5M Thomas, along with soon to be $6-8M in Castonzo.  That is $25+M in 4 lineman and $30+M as a group.  Not sure that will fit Grigson's model of sustainability with 1/4 of the cap tied up in the O-line and many people to pay in the future.

 

I know that Mack is not really in your realistic plans, personally, but all of this is part of why I just don't see Grigs going after the top 3 FA centers.  He went with the quick fix in Cherilus - and it worked - but I'm not sure he believes he can continue to do that and prosper.

[jmac_48]

Here's my take...

 

Fixing the Oline is a no brainer, no if's and's or but's about it!

 

The dilemma is how to go about it and this is what faces the FO this year.

 

Some would say that anybody at Center would be an improvement but would just be a stop-gap solution.

Get somebody at Center and let our young guys develop, give it time, bla, bla, bla.

This might work, but IMHO would delay the full implementation of the type of system Pep and Pags want.

 

Go whole-hog and sign top of the line FA @ Center, midrange Guard and get the show on the road!

That's going to be costly, It may be good to get the line fixed before we gotta pay Luck and his classmates.

This will give the O a solid base to go forward with and I think that a solid Oline will take the pressure off the D, Luck, and make the run game an honest option going forward.

 

Then there is the middle of the road approach, Get a mid to better than average Center, same with a Guard in FA plug them in and continue to develop and draft for the future of the line.  This would leave more money for fixes and for the future overall, but is it the solution?

 

Whatever, we need some real studs in the middle of the line or this offense is going to spurt and shudder again next year and put undue stress on the defense(and the fan base). Yeah we need help on the other side of the ball too, but if this issue is not taken care of in a complete and decisive manner, quickly, we may never see the true potential of Mr. Luck and these New Colts.

 

I agree with Smonroe, fix this, and the O can run anything they want it to.

Ain't going to be easy, ain't gonna be cheap!

 

In my mind #1 priority!

This will be a very interesting and crucial offseason for the Colts.

[Superman]

Let's say we tie up a cap # of $9M in Mack, $7M Cherilus, $3.5M Thomas, along with soon to be $6-8M in Castonzo.  That is $25+M in 4 lineman and $30+M as a group.  Not sure that will fit Grigson's model of sustainability with 1/4 of the cap tied up in the O-line and many people to pay in the future.

 

I know that Mack is not really in your realistic plans, personally, but all of this is part of why I just don't see Grigs going after the top 3 FA centers.  He went with the quick fix in Cherilus - and it worked - but I'm not sure he believes he can continue to do that and prosper.

 

I don't think $8-9m/year for Mack is sustainable. You're likely right about that.

 

And my primary concern with Cherilus' contract is the increasing cap hits and his ability to stay healthy as he gets older. I think his deal might be reevaluated after 2015 anyways. We'll see what the story is then. Castonzo is up after this year, we'll see what he gets as well.

 

There are plenty of tough decisions to make in the future, but there's nothing more important to the future of this team and to Luck's development -- not to mention the sizable investment tied up with Richardson -- than the improvement of the offensive line. And the weak link right now is center. We've probably, hopefully, fixed the guard issue. I'd rather spend money on the line than anything else right now.

 

The alternative is handing it over to Holmes at center, and I'm willing to get behind that, but my personal preference is to sign a starting caliber center right now.

[Coffeedrinker]

Some say the Pats overdrafted Solder. The Cowboys supposedly overdrafted Frederick. But when you get it right, no one cares. And like you said, the Pats have built their line through the draft, then retained those players. Not gone out and spent money on guys.

 

Where I differ with you is specifically with regard to the Colts. We have issues along the interior of the line. Not sure about Donald Thomas at LG, because the sample size was so small and because he's never been a full season starter, but he did well last year as a spot starter with the Pats and this year early on for us. I'm willing to pencil him in. I think you and I agree that Thornton is physically gifted and can handle RG, so long as he gets some quality C play. And we agree that our starting C is terrible, and the other option we've had is only marginally better. I am in favor of fixing this issue at C, which is the glaring need on the line right now, via free agency. I don't want to spend $8m/year on a FA, but it would sure be comforting to know that we have a capable C moving forward, as I think it would greatly improve the quality of the line play.

 

TL;DR? I want a FA center this offseason, even though I agree that it's typically better to build through the draft.

I think you and I are mostly in agreement.  I liked what I saw from Thomas but I don't think the team can depend on him for an entire season, so I think the Colts need a guard and a center and I'm not against FA for that, I just don't think the Colts need Mack and only Mack to be a successful line.  The further the problem, outside of Mack and De la Puenta there is no young, proven center which means that; they will both most likely be resigned by their current team or they will be able to get a premium on the open market.

 

I actually wouldn't mind if the Colts brought Pollack in to compete for the center spot at worst be a back-up guard/center.

 

Who knows though, maybe Holmes will be the answer at center afterall.

[AntonMcG]

Some say the Pats overdrafted Solder. The Cowboys supposedly overdrafted Frederick. But when you get it right, no one cares. And like you said, the Pats have built their line through the draft, then retained those players. Not gone out and spent money on guys.

 

Where I differ with you is specifically with regard to the Colts. We have issues along the interior of the line. Not sure about Donald Thomas at LG, because the sample size was so small and because he's never been a full season starter, but he did well last year as a spot starter with the Pats and this year early on for us. I'm willing to pencil him in. I think you and I agree that Thornton is physically gifted and can handle RG, so long as he gets some quality C play. And we agree that our starting C is terrible, and the other option we've had is only marginally better. I am in favor of fixing this issue at C, which is the glaring need on the line right now, via free agency. I don't want to spend $8m/year on a FA, but it would sure be comforting to know that we have a capable C moving forward, as I think it would greatly improve the quality of the line play.

 

TL;DR? I want a FA center this offseason, even though I agree that it's typically better to build through the draft.

 

I am sorry but I just cannot agree with this. If the premise of this thread is to be universally agreed, then we are in no way set at Guard. Thornton was so inconsistent and had more bad moments than good. Yes, he was a rookie, but going into next year and having the opportunity to learn  behind a few quality Guards could only be a good thing. I am also shocked at how much of a sure thing people consider Donald Thomas (I know you did not state as much), the sample size is very small and he is coming off an injury that in theory should affect an O-Line man considerably, because a lot of drive comes from the quadricep muscles.

 

Is there quality Guards in the draft that fit in a power-man scheme? I really like Jon Asomoah but Kansas play a zone scheme with a lot of pulling and trapping (which I would prefer to see us do, personally)... I don't know if he transitions well.

 

Point is, I don't see a great Center turning our line into a dominant one next year... servicable maybe.

[Superman]

I am sorry but I just cannot agree with this. If the premise of this thread is to be universally agreed, then we are in no way set at Guard. Thornton was so inconsistent and had more bad moments than good. Yes, he was a rookie, but going into next year and having the opportunity to learn  behind a few quality Guards could only be a good thing. I am also shocked at how much of a sure thing people consider Donald Thomas (I know you did not state as much), the sample size is very small and he is coming off an injury that in theory should affect an O-Line man considerably, because a lot of drive comes from the quadricep muscles.

 

Is there quality Guards in the draft that fit in a power-man scheme? I really like Jon Asomoah but Kansas play a zone scheme with a lot of pulling and trapping (which I would prefer to see us do, personally)... I don't know if he transitions well.

 

Point is, I don't see a great Center turning our line into a dominant one next year... servicable maybe.

 

I don't think we're set at guard. Let's not go too far. But I think our options at guard are promising. And if we have a strong center, then that's even better. But no matter who we have, it's going to take time for our line to really improve, like coffee said. 

 

I agree that we should add some veteran depth at guard, but not Asamoah. If I wanted to hand out another starting job, I'd go after him. If he could play center, maybe I'd like him. But I do think we should stick with Thomas and Thornton, penciled in at least. And maybe we can add some lower tier competition, just in case Thomas isn't healthy and/or effective, and in case Thorton's development stalls. 

[John Waylon]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the Patriots have had stellar offensive lines the entire time Brady has been there.

 

In those years, they started out as a run the ball team, morphed into a passing team, a WR team, a TE team, and this year a great short yardage running/passing team.

 

We shouldn't be concerned about being a "Run the Ball" team.  We should be concerned about getting a great O line, even if it means overpaying FAs and/or picking the best O linemen even before their projected rounds.

 

If the core is strong, like the Patriots, and we have a great QB, we can be anything we want and adapt to the strengths that the skill players bring. 

 

Preach the good word. 

 

We have the best young QB in the game and we wanna take the ball out of his hands and run it hard. 

 

Kinda like getting a nice steak dinner and then just eating the sides. You ate well, but you didn't get the most out of it.

 

And it's the one thing I think could doom this coaching staff. I mean, Irsay certainly knows what needs to happen when you have a great QB... If Pagano keeps hitching his horse to the running cart and the results don't get much better it could carry him out of town.

 

We've seen that Andrew can carry the load and be a dominant passer. Pagano and his staff need to take advantage of that.

[Coffeedrinker]

Preach the good word. 

 

We have the best young QB in the game and we wanna take the ball out of his hands and run it hard. 

 

Kinda like getting a nice steak dinner and then just eating the sides. You ate well, but you didn't get the most out of it.

 

And it's the one thing I think could doom this coaching staff. I mean, Irsay certainly knows what needs to happen when you have a great QB... If Pagano keeps hitching his horse to the running cart and the results don't get much better it could carry him out of town.

 

We've seen that Andrew can carry the load and be a dominant passer. Pagano and his staff need to take advantage of that.

To keep with your analogy though, a restaurant that only serves steak is not going to do as well as a restaurant that serves steak and chicken.

 

As great as a young Qb that Luck is, sometimes the ball should be taken out of his hands. and not have to rely soley on his arm to win games. 

[John Waylon]

To keep with your analogy though, a restaurant that only serves steak is not going to do as well as a restaurant that serves steak and chicken.

 

As great as a young Qb that Luck is, sometimes the ball should be taken out of his hands. and not have to rely soley on his arm to win games. 

 

Well of course. I don't want to see us burden Luck with a laughable running game the way we did Peyton in his final years here. 

 

But I also don't find it wise for us to want to pound the ball like we can't throw it adequately. 

[Smash Mouth]

Preach the good word. 

 

We have the best young QB in the game and we wanna take the ball out of his hands and run it hard. 

 

Kinda like getting a nice steak dinner and then just eating the sides. You ate well, but you didn't get the most out of it.

 

And it's the one thing I think could doom this coaching staff. I mean, Irsay certainly knows what needs to happen when you have a great QB... If Pagano keeps hitching his horse to the running cart and the results don't get much better it could carry him out of town.

 

We've seen that Andrew can carry the load and be a dominant passer. Pagano and his staff need to take advantage of that.

I think that Pagano and Pep went too far with how much they want to run the football.  They need to recognize that until the Colts get a dominant OL, you can't consistently line-up with FB and tell the defense we're running , go ahead and stop us.  There was a stretch where they showed no imagination and the offense bogged down.  What they won't do is put Luck in a position where he throws 6 or 7 INTs in the playoffs so they will continue to develop a running game until he matures more

 

Pagano won 11 regular season games, won the AFC South and won  a playoff game. I don't see him going anyw 

[John Waylon]

I think that Pagano and Pep went too far with how much they want to run the football.  They need to recognize that until the Colts get a dominant OL, you can't consistently line-up with FB and tell the defense we're running , go ahead and stop us.  There was a stretch where they showed no imagination and the offense bogged down.  What they won't do is put Luck in a position where he throws 6 or 7 INTs in the playoffs so they will continue to develop a running game until he matures more

 

Pagano won 11 regular season games, won the AFC South and won  a playoff game. I don't see him going anyw 

 

Not immediately. But if he continues to want to run, run, run and we struggle, it's a recipe for a new home. 

 

We've recently had an all pro QB on this team. Don't think for a minute Irsay wants to see Luck spend a majority of his time handing the ball off. 

[GoPats]

Unfortunately for the Pats, Dante retired today.

 

This. When it comes to the play of a "unit" instead of an individual player, coaching takes on more significance. 

 

It seems like, over the years, no matter who the Patriots threw out there, no matter where the guy came from or where he was on the depth chart the prior August, Dante Scarneccia would coach 'em up right and the offense would keep on plugging away. I think the Patriots' success on the offensive line was more due to him than the players they've had in and out of here over the years. 

 

 

He will be missed. 

[YOUR GM]

Well of course. I don't want to see us burden Luck with a laughable running game the way we did Peyton in his final years here.

But I also don't find it wise for us to want to pound the ball like we can't throw it adequately.

Especially considering pounding the ball actually only compounded things by playing further into our weaknesses

[Pegs]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the Patriots have had stellar offensive lines the entire time Brady has been there.

 

In those years, they started out as a run the ball team, morphed into a passing team, a WR team, a TE team, and this year a great short yardage running/passing team.

 

We shouldn't be concerned about being a "Run the Ball" team.  We should be concerned about getting a great O line, even if it means overpaying FAs and/or picking the best O linemen even before their projected rounds.

 

If the core is strong, like the Patriots, and we have a great QB, we can be anything we want and adapt to the strengths that the skill players bring. 

Totally agree. You're only as good as your OL. As they always say: "Games are won & lost in the trenches". A great OL can make for a good or great running back. Just ask Trent R.

[Blueblazes]

It would be amazing what this team would accomplish with even one more very good O-lineman. Even just looking at Colts teams from the past you see how much even one ''very good'' O-lineman improves things. When we attained George Kunz in '75 (along with a couple other O-linemen) it created time for Bert Jones to pass as well as helped open holes for Lydell Mitchell. When we added Ron Solt to Chris Hinton and Ray Donaldson, it helped taking the next step and opening holes for Dickerson. Also adding Kirk Lowdermilk and Will Woolford to the line, it helped our upstart '95 O-line. Anyhow, one more ''very good'' O-lineman would work wonders for this team (Mack C (Cleveland).