It's Linebacker Play

[wercolts]

.......costing games. Under no system or coach have LB's ever been taught to vacate the zone behind the defensive line as quickly as we've seen the Colts LB's do. And, on more than a few occasions I've watched two LB's go into the same gap on running plays. It was prevalent in weeks 1 and 2, and again last night. I guarantee the LB's are being read the riot act in the film room over this. Dungy in the past, Caldwell now, along with a few players have addressed this in the media without going into the weeds by saying "there are things we can fix" and "we just have to play better". Problem is do the Colts have the LB's to get the job done. Brackett was one although his size becomes a liability when offensive linemen are able to reach the second level on running plays. Angerer is quickly becoming a stud but he's not there yet. The jury's still out on Conner but you have to like his motor. Wheeler can tackle but he's lost unless the ball carrier is right in front of him. Honestly none of these guys start on a team that wins with defense right now, and the Colts are going to have to win some games with defense until we see 18 back on the field.

[21isSuperman]

I wouldn't blame it on the linebackers, I would blame it on the playcalling. 5 times in a row, Freeman checks it down to Blount, yet Coyer still calls a play that has Angerer dropping to the deep middle instead of spying the zone or having a shallower drop. Personally, I think the LBs have played pretty well this year. Angerer, Connor and Wheeler have all played pretty well from what I've seen. Of course, there have been mistakes made in things like tackling, but they have improved from last year and this is the best I've seen any of those guys play.

[Jason_]

.......costing games. Under no system or coach have LB's ever been taught to vacate the zone behind the defensive line as quickly as we've seen the Colts LB's do.

That's not true...this is all a product of the tampa 2 and it's design. The primary difference between the tampa 2 and the standard cover 2 is that the MLB drops into deep coverage at the safety level and vacates the middle short zone at the LB level that he would otherwise be covering. There are also differences in the alignment of the DL but as far as coverage, it's the deep zone by the MLB that is the primary difference and that's what Angerer has been doing. He's been playing the coverage he's been assigned to play.

[Malakai432]

It seems like the only tandem that could excel in the Colts defensive scheme @ LB would be the Incredible Hulk & The Silver Surfer. Wonder how much those guys could cost?

[wercolts]

You can't really believe an entire zone is designed to be left empty in any type of zone coverage scheme while the ball is still in the backfield, yet I've seen it multiple times. Just like seeing 2 LB's in the same gap, someone is in the wrong place, and that's a failure of execution not a coaching or scheme issue.

[Jason_]

It seems like the only tandem that could excel in the Colts defensive scheme @ LB would be the Incredible Hulk & The Silver Surfer. Wonder how much those guys could cost?

Ah you forget about the Flash...how could he not fit in considering the Colts love for speedy defenders. lol

[Jason_]

You can't really believe an entire zone is designed to be left empty in any type of zone coverage scheme while the ball is still in the backfield, yet I've seen it multiple times. Just like seeing 2 LB's in the same gap, someone is in the wrong place, and that's a failure of execution not a coaching or scheme issue.

This is a diagram of the base tampa 2 defense and clearly shows that Angerer was playing in the position he was supposed to be. The short/middle area is left wide open when the MIKE drops back and the WILL and SAM simply aren't fast enough nor good enough in coverage to each cover half the field...that's why LB'S are usually covering at most 1/3 of the field.

I'm not by any means saying the LB's have been perfect on every single play, but where they are lining up and Angerer dropping so far back are 100% due to the tampa 2 coverage scheme.

[wercolts]

The WILL and/or Sam were not in position on many of the plays. Wheeler and/or Conner were dropping out farther than Angerer on more than one occasion. It's hard to tell when they're playing cover 2 vs Tampa 2 because at least one guy ends up out of position. Does a professional player need a coach to tell him he needs to be in front of the first down marker when his key has the ball, or the potential to get it in front of him?

[Smitto]

.......costing games. Under no system or coach have LB's ever been taught to vacate the zone behind the defensive line as quickly as we've seen the Colts LB's do. And, on more than a few occasions I've watched two LB's go into the same gap on running plays. It was prevalent in weeks 1 and 2, and again last night. I guarantee the LB's are being read the riot act in the film room over this. Dungy in the past, Caldwell now, along with a few players have addressed this in the media without going into the weeds by saying "there are things we can fix" and "we just have to play better". Problem is do the Colts have the LB's to get the job done. Brackett was one although his size becomes a liability when offensive linemen are able to reach the second level on running plays. Angerer is quickly becoming a stud but he's not there yet. The jury's still out on Conner but you have to like his motor. Wheeler can tackle but he's lost unless the ball carrier is right in front of him. Honestly none of these guys start on a team that wins with defense right now, and the Colts are going to have to win some games with defense until we see 18 back on the field.

Just reading that i knew you were wrong... ie the bears and urlacher he does the same exact thing brackett and now Pat does excepty he has great instincts and is a great athelete. The LB's did not cost the colts the game, they were playing the way they were suppose to play and they played well it is the scheme that is hurting the colts defense.

[OLD FAN MAN]

This is a diagram of the base tampa 2 defense and clearly shows that Angerer was playing in the position he was supposed to be. The short/middle area is left wide open when the MIKE drops back and the WILL and SAM simply aren't fast enough nor good enough in coverage to each cover half the field...that's why LB'S are usually covering at most 1/3 of the field.

I'm not by any means saying the LB's have been perfect on every single play, but where they are lining up and Angerer dropping so far back are 100% due to the tampa 2 coverage scheme.

what! this system wants the mlb to run back so the qb can throw to where he was, who made this system?

[wercolts]

and urlacher he does the same exact thing brackett and now Pat does excepty he has great instincts and is a great athelete.

So you are comparing Urlacher with Brackett and Angerer, and you say he is a great athlete with great instincts without giving the Colts LB's the same praise, and it's not their fault?????? You're right it's not their fault they are not good enough.

[Andy]

Blame it on the linebackers. smh For starters, the guys with the most tackles in the NFL are Pat Angerer (1), and Kavell Conner (2)... so they're making tackles. They're stuffing the line, but they've generally done a good job against the run. I mean we did well against the run for the first 3 quarters, then it just blew up in the 4th quarter. If anything blame this on the DBs, they can't tackle or cover.

[doogansquest]

That's not true...this is all a product of the tampa 2 and it's design. The primary difference between the tampa 2 and the standard cover 2 is that the MLB drops into deep coverage at the safety level and vacates the middle short zone at the LB level that he would otherwise be covering. There are also differences in the alignment of the DL but as far as coverage, it's the deep zone by the MLB that is the primary difference and that's what Angerer has been doing. He's been playing the coverage he's been assigned to play.

It's also Angerer's job on the field to adjust for hot routes, LB schemes, etc., because Brackett isn't there. He did no such thing.

As to the scheme, it works well, but the LB's have to have great instincts and the ability to cover ground quickly. Obviously Urlacher was brought up as an example, but he's about as ideal an LB as one could hope for with this type of scheme.

It was frustrating to watch the Bucs run the exact same check down 5 times in a row. Usually then the MIKE will make that adjustment and spy it, or call for a DE to drop back. Coyer had to have seen it.

The intermediate-to-long passes were rather annoying to. The Bucs weren't completing the typical 8 yard smash routes most teams use. They were throwing it 15 yards down field and guys were wide open. That's just a blown assignment. There are no cushions THAT big in the Tampa 2.

We are short on DB's, and now because of an extensive string of injuries, we're short on everything else too.

[wercolts]

I like Angerer and Conner and I expect them to become the kind of LB's this scheme needs to be successful but they are clearly not there yet. The number of tackles they have may be due the huge number of plays they are on the field for. Somebody check the number of plays the D has been on the field compared to other teams. I do agree the DB's deserve some of the blame. Lacey can tackle but can't cover, powers can stay with a guy but struggles to get position. That said, there is no expectation in the scheme for either one to be able to completely shut good WR's down. A strong pass rush takes care of the wides by reducing the time they have to run routes and time the QB has to get it to them. The short stuff in the middle, the stuff that gets the Colts beat, is primarily the responsibility of the LB's. If you agree the short game in the middle of the field is what gets them beat I'd love to hear who's responsibility you think it is to cover that area.

[Smitto]

So you are comparing Urlacher with Brackett and Angerer, and you say he is a great athlete with great instincts without giving the Colts LB's the same praise, and it's not their fault?????? You're right it's not their fault they are not good enough.

No they are not Brian Urlacher no one is, the guy is a future hall of famer if you didnt know... so no they are not good compared to him... other LB's yes. It's not their fault as well, look at the size of urlacher, speed, awareness and compare that to brackett and Pat... the colts are misusing the tampa 2 and they are using it too much... just like how Nnamdi was a great corner with the raiders and look at him now playing zone, not good at all.

[wercolts]

We can't even tell if it's cover 2 or Tampa because someone is almost always out of position, either because their instincts were wrong or they are just too slow. Who's job is it to cover the area of the field that teams use to beat the Colts like the Bucs did last night?

[OLD FAN MAN]

Blame it on the linebackers. smh For starters, the guys with the most tackles in the NFL are Pat Angerer (1), and Kavell Conner (2)... so they're making tackles. They're stuffing the line, but they've generally done a good job against the run. I mean we did well against the run for the first 3 quarters, then it just blew up in the 4th quarter. If anything blame this on the DBs, they can't tackle or cover.

number of tackles made dosent cut it, how many yards did they gain before the tackle is what counts.

[wercolts]

number of tackles made dosent cut it, how many yards did they gain before the tackle is what counts.

And when the other team runs 80 plays................

[OLD FAN MAN]

And when the other team runs 80 plays................

that is how our defense is hurt all the time they have to make more tackles than anyone else, because we gave up first down yardage before the tackle and we stay on the field again, another chance to get hurt

[Jason_]

The WILL and/or Sam were not in position on many of the plays. Wheeler and/or Conner were dropping out farther than Angerer on more than one occasion. It's hard to tell when they're playing cover 2 vs Tampa 2 because at least one guy ends up out of position. Does a professional player need a coach to tell him he needs to be in front of the first down marker when his key has the ball, or the potential to get it in front of him?

Have you considered that maybe it's the coach telling the professional player where to line up?

what! this system wants the mlb to run back so the qb can throw to where he was, who made this system?

That would be Tony Dungy and Monte Kiffin.

I like Angerer and Conner and I expect them to become the kind of LB's this scheme needs to be successful but they are clearly not there yet. The number of tackles they have may be due the huge number of plays they are on the field for. Somebody check the number of plays the D has been on the field compared to other teams. I do agree the DB's deserve some of the blame. Lacey can tackle but can't cover, powers can stay with a guy but struggles to get position. That said, there is no expectation in the scheme for either one to be able to completely shut good WR's down. A strong pass rush takes care of the wides by reducing the time they have to run routes and time the QB has to get it to them. The short stuff in the middle, the stuff that gets the Colts beat, is primarily the responsibility of the LB's. If you agree the short game in the middle of the field is what gets them beat I'd love to hear who's responsibility you think it is to cover that area.

Yes I absolutely agree it's the short middle of the field but it's due to the tampa 2 coverage and not the LB's. When Coyer tells them to line up behind the first yard marker, there's not much the LBs can do, especially when the other team not only runs a quick route to that area for the easy completion, but they're also getting other guys downfield and in position to setup blocks which allow the first down. Coyer needs to figure out how he's going to get that short middle area covered if he's going to continue running the tampa 2. Sadly, about the only option is what Jaworski suggested during the game and that'd be to drop a DE or DT into that area.

We can't even tell if it's cover 2 or Tampa because someone is almost always out of position, either because their instincts were wrong or they are just too slow. Who's job is it to cover the area of the field that teams use to beat the Colts like the Bucs did last night?

Yeah, it's actually pretty easy to tell. Angerer is the only one you have to watch to figure it out. If the ball is snapped and the QB goes to a traditional drop (not a rollout or anything like that) then in tampa 2 coverage Angerer starts running backwards. That indicates Tampa 2 coverage. If Angerer does not run backwards at the snap then they're not in tampa 2.

[GoColts8818]

.......costing games. Under no system or coach have LB's ever been taught to vacate the zone behind the defensive line as quickly as we've seen the Colts LB's do. And, on more than a few occasions I've watched two LB's go into the same gap on running plays. It was prevalent in weeks 1 and 2, and again last night. I guarantee the LB's are being read the riot act in the film room over this. Dungy in the past, Caldwell now, along with a few players have addressed this in the media without going into the weeds by saying "there are things we can fix" and "we just have to play better". Problem is do the Colts have the LB's to get the job done. Brackett was one although his size becomes a liability when offensive linemen are able to reach the second level on running plays. Angerer is quickly becoming a stud but he's not there yet. The jury's still out on Conner but you have to like his motor. Wheeler can tackle but he's lost unless the ball carrier is right in front of him. Honestly none of these guys start on a team that wins with defense right now, and the Colts are going to have to win some games with defense until we see 18 back on the field.

Um Angerer had 21 tackles just last week. Conner had 18 last night and 14 solo and was in double digits the two weeks before that. Angerer and Conner are 1st and 2nd in the NFL in tackles so far. Our linebackers now are probably the best group we've had since we had Petterson, Washington and Thornton. Other than Freeney and Mathis the linebackers have been the bright spot on defense this year.

[Jason_]

Um Angerer had 21 tackles just last week. Conner had 18 last night and 14 solo and was in double digits the two weeks before that. Angerer and Conner are 1st and 2nd in the NFL in tackles so far. Our linebackers now are probably the best group we've had since we had Petterson, Washington and Thornton. Other than Freeney and Mathis the linebackers have been the bright spot on defense this year.

Hey now don't you forget Nevis. He may not have the numbers as far as tackles or sacks to show for it but the boy is getting a lot of penetration and disrupting plays. I just hope he improves to the point he can start finishing plays. I think he'll have his first sack very soon.

[GoColts8818]

Hey now don't you forget Nevis. He may not have the numbers as far as tackles or sacks to show for it but the boy is getting a lot of penetration and disrupting plays. I just hope he improves to the point he can start finishing plays. I think he'll have his first sack very soon.

I like Nevis but I would put him behind the linebackers in terms of being impressive. Don't get me wrong I think Nevis has been great but the linebackers have been lights out so far other than when they are being asked to play so far off like last night. Speeking of which anyone else hear JMV who said he talked to a Colts defender and Coyer wanted them that far off because they didn't trust their corners on the outside in man coverage because of how young they were due to the injuries?

[Malakai432]

I like Nevis but I would put him behind the linebackers in terms of being impressive. Don't get me wrong I think Nevis has been great but the linebackers have been lights out so far other than when they are being asked to play so far off like last night. Speeking of which anyone else hear JMV who said he talked to a Colts defender and Coyer wanted them that far off because they didn't trust their corners on the outside in man coverage because of how young they were due to the injuries?

I missed that one but would not be surprised at all.

[wercolts]

Um Angerer had 21 tackles just last week. Conner had 18 last night and 14 solo and was in double digits the two weeks before that. Angerer and Conner are 1st and 2nd in the NFL in tackles so far. Our linebackers now are probably the best group we've had since we had Petterson, Washington and Thornton. Other than Freeney and Mathis the linebackers have been the bright spot on defense this year.

They're getting more opportunities than anyone else

[GoColts8818]

They're getting more opportunities than anyone else

Good for them, they are still making the plays. It's amazing the lengths people go to try to discredit our players when they do something well.

[wercolts]

Have you considered that maybe it's the coach telling the professional player where to line up?

Sure they tell them where to line up but they sure as heck don't tell all 3 of them to vacate the entire area behind the D line all the way past the sticks, and it happened more than once.

Yeah, it's actually pretty easy to tell. Angerer is the only one you have to watch to figure it out. If the ball is snapped and the QB goes to a traditional drop (not a rollout or anything like that) then in tampa 2 coverage Angerer starts running backwards. That indicates Tampa 2 coverage. If Angerer does not run backwards at the snap then they're not in tampa 2.

So you're sure Angerer, and all the other LB's for that matter, were on the same and correct page throughout that 4th quarter.

[Jason_]

Again, how do you know they're not telling all 3 of them to drop so far back? The mere fact that it happened more than once would indicate to me that they are playing where the coaches want them. I haven't rewatched the game yet but from what I recall it happened a lot more than just once. They were all dropping back every single play on the last drive in the 2nd quarter. If they weren't supposed to be dropping that far back that often then one of the coaches would have talked to them about it. this is just like people who like to blame Lacey for lining up 10 yards off the LOS. There are a lot of things you can blame Lacey for but he's lining up where he's told to line up.

To your second point, I never said what you are implying. I was simply pointing out that the only difference in coverage between the tampa 2 and cover 2 is the MIKE dropping to the safety level. so that makes it easy to distinguish between tampa 2 and cover 2.

[GoColts8818]

Again, how do you know they're not telling all 3 of them to drop so far back? The mere fact that it happened more than once would indicate to me that they are playing where the coaches want them. I haven't rewatched the game yet but from what I recall it happened a lot more than just once. They were all dropping back every single play on the last drive in the 2nd quarter. If they weren't supposed to be dropping that far back that often then one of the coaches would have talked to them about it. this is just like people who like to blame Lacey for lining up 10 yards off the LOS. There are a lot of things you can blame Lacey for but he's lining up where he's told to line up.

To your second point, I never said what you are implying. I was simply pointing out that the only difference in coverage between the tampa 2 and cover 2 is the MIKE dropping to the safety level. so that makes it easy to distinguish between tampa 2 and cover 2.

Per JMV, who said he talked to a Colts defender that's exactly why they were dropping back. Larry Coyer told them to play so far off because he didn't trust the young corners on the outside by themselves.

Generaly if players don't do what the coaches tell them to do or aren't doing what the coaches want they find their way to the bench.

[Corndog]

I like Angerer and Conner and I expect them to become the kind of LB's this scheme needs to be successful but they are clearly not there yet. The number of tackles they have may be due the huge number of plays they are on the field for. Somebody check the number of plays the D has been on the field compared to other teams. I do agree the DB's deserve some of the blame. Lacey can tackle but can't cover, powers can stay with a guy but struggles to get position. That said, there is no expectation in the scheme for either one to be able to completely shut good WR's down. A strong pass rush takes care of the wides by reducing the time they have to run routes and time the QB has to get it to them. The short stuff in the middle, the stuff that gets the Colts beat, is primarily the responsibility of the LB's. If you agree the short game in the middle of the field is what gets them beat I'd love to hear who's responsibility you think it is to cover that area.

Did you even look at the Tampa 2 coverage diagram? The middle linebacker goes back into a safety position and takes him out of the normal short/middle field zone. They even did a replay on MNF showing this, where they exposed how Tampa was able to take advantage of this and they still kept running it on 3rd and 8-10. Angerer was setting himself 10-15 yards behind the 1st down marker, at best he was just able to make sure it didn't go for much more than a first down. Notice the short middle field passes weren't open until 3rd down when they would usually run the Tampa 2 defense. They weren't making these plays when Angerer was covering that zone.

[Rich Cannon]

This is a diagram of the base tampa 2 defense and clearly shows that Angerer was playing in the position he was supposed to be. The short/middle area is left wide open when the MIKE drops back and the WILL and SAM simply aren't fast enough nor good enough in coverage to each cover half the field...that's why LB'S are usually covering at most 1/3 of the field.

I'm not by any means saying the LB's have been perfect on every single play, but where they are lining up and Angerer dropping so far back are 100% due to the tampa 2 coverage scheme.

To bad our corners dont play that close to the line

[husker61]

number of tackles made dosent cut it, how many yards did they gain before the tackle is what counts.

thank you!!

this is exactly why i am not on the angerer bandwagon. like i have said before, making tackles 5-10 yards down field just doesn't cut it as a linebacker!

[oldunclemark]

Dont the Bears play the same defense..?

(But they have Urlacher and Briggs) we have 2nd year players

[Jason_]

Dont the Bears play the same defense..?

(But they have Urlacher and Briggs) we have 2nd year players

Not exactly....I believe the Bears play more of a standard cover 2 as opposed to the tampa 2. They may revert to tampa 2 in long yardage situations or as a prevent defense but I don't believe they run tampa 2 coverage on a regular basis, especially on early downs.

[RobSam]

.......costing games. Under no system or coach have LB's ever been taught to vacate the zone behind the defensive line as quickly as we've seen the Colts LB's do. And, on more than a few occasions I've watched two LB's go into the same gap on running plays. It was prevalent in weeks 1 and 2, and again last night. I guarantee the LB's are being read the riot act in the film room over this. Dungy in the past, Caldwell now, along with a few players have addressed this in the media without going into the weeds by saying "there are things we can fix" and "we just have to play better". Problem is do the Colts have the LB's to get the job done. Brackett was one although his size becomes a liability when offensive linemen are able to reach the second level on running plays. Angerer is quickly becoming a stud but he's not there yet. The jury's still out on Conner but you have to like his motor. Wheeler can tackle but he's lost unless the ball carrier is right in front of him. Honestly none of these guys start on a team that wins with defense right now, and the Colts are going to have to win some games with defense until we see 18 back on the field.

I guarantee you that Angerer was running back 20 yards at the snap because he was coached to do so.........if a linebacker did that on his own...six plays in a row and let the the other team score because of it...he would have been yanked.......BUT....that was the coaches call...not Angerers....

That being said....you are correct.......LBs vacating the middle of the field play after play after play is RIDICULOUS....and can only result in bad things........

[19colt]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Manning dink and dunk his way to Superbowl MVP against the Bears Vs this coverage? Just saying the Colts aren't the only ones who do this.

[alfred87]

He actually did, this has to change, our calendar has tough, experienced and accurate quarterbacks that will take advantage of this zone left unmarked unless coyer does something

[Moose Of Woe]

It seems like the only tandem that could excel in the Colts defensive scheme @ LB would be the Incredible Hulk & The Silver Surfer. Wonder how much those guys could cost?

Galactus HUNGERRrrRRRS!

*Gives Galactus a Snickers*

[21isSuperman]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Manning dink and dunk his way to Superbowl MVP against the Bears Vs this coverage? Just saying the Colts aren't the only ones who do this.

Well, he was playing in conditions that weren't ideal for the deep passing game (just look at what happened to Grossman when he tried to go deep). But if I remember right, Peyton had a few downfield shots...the touchdown to Reggie sticks out

[21isSuperman]

thank you!!

this is exactly why i am not on the angerer bandwagon. like i have said before, making tackles 5-10 yards down field just doesn't cut it as a linebacker!

Well, when your coordinator makes you drop 20 yards away from the line of scrimmage...