If we trade down to the top 10 picks in round 2 with an extra 3rd...

[chad72]

...would it make sense to draft Terron Armstead if he is there? I think it would. Tackle, more than OG, would be a place where a draftee with younger and athletic legs would definitely help instead of throwing money at a FA tackle. OG - free agency money seems to reap its rewards more often.

 

See that both the Cowboys and Chargers are eyeing him closely, would that mean they would go after him in round 1?

 

He is definitely a combine and pro day riser, read this:

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/3/8/4079266/2013-nfl-draft-pro-day-stock-up-stock-down

[Balzer40]

I don't know much about him but he seems like he could be the "workout warrior" type.

[Nobody]

We don't need super quick OL, we need big, strong guys.

[BOTT]

He was rising before the combine/pro day due his performance in the senior bowl and east west shrine game

[chad72]

We don't need super quick OL, we need big, strong guys.

 

I disagree strongly. If you want to win in this league, you need OL who can adapt, whether it is run blocking or quick screens/no huddle in the passing game. A young guy like him can put on the weight if his technique and athleticism is good. It is rare to have finished products coming off the draft.

 

Both Marshall Yanda and Michael Oher on the Ravens' O-line are 315 lbs and I am sure if I look harder I can find more. Drafted guys on an NFL regimen can easily put on 10 lbs without losing much athleticism. Terron Armstead is around 306 lbs right now.

 

This is like we Colts fans wanting beef on the D-line. If you had to choose a 310 lbs that is very athletic compared to a 330 lb guy that is not so athletic, I'd go with a playmaking 310 lb guy who can do more vs the pass as well.

 

Bigger is not always better, versatility on top of base talent is very important. O-line play can a lot of times be players playing in sync where the sum of the parts can be greater than the parts themselves.

 

The assumption is Pep Hamilton is going to go WCO along the lines of the 49ers, and I dont think it will end up being the case. Luck will still be throwing way more than Colin Kaepernick, IMO, and we need athletic OL who can do a bit of both eventually.

[Nobody]

I disagree strongly. If you want to win in this league, you need OL who can adapt, whether it is run blocking or quick screens/no huddle in the passing game. A young guy like him can put on the weight if his technique and athleticism is good. It is rare to have finished products coming off the draft.

 

Both Marshall Yanda and Michael Oher on the Ravens' O-line are 315 lbs and I am sure if I look harder I can find more. Drafted guys on an NFL regimen can easily put on 10 lbs without losing much athleticism. Terron Armstead is around 306 lbs right now.

 

This is like we Colts fans wanting beef on the D-line. If you had to choose a 310 lbs that is very athletic compared to a 330 lb guy that is not so athletic, I'd go with a playmaking 310 lb guy who can do more vs the pass as well.

 

Bigger is not always better, versatility on top of base talent is very important. O-line play can a lot of times be players playing in sync where the sum of the parts can be greater than the parts themselves.

He just doesn't fit our scheme, his weight is just part of that. He is perfect for a team like Houston or Washington, because they run a ZBS that requires quick, finesse blockers. We run a power system that requires strong power blockers. 10 lbs won't make him a power blocker.

[chad72]

He just doesn't fit our scheme, his weight is just part of that. He is perfect for a team like Houston or Washington, because they run a ZBS that requires quick, finesse blockers. We run a power system that requires strong power blockers. 10 lbs won't make him a power blocker.

 

We dont know that we are going to stick to a pure power system without screens and no huddle passing thrown in, that is my bottomline point.

 

Packers run a variation of the WCO, so does Andy Reid, and both McCarthy and Reid like to throw a lot. That is my point, with everyone expecting us to run a WCO like the 49ers or the Stanford Cardinals, which may not be happening.

[Balzer40]

He just doesn't fit our scheme, his weight is just part of that. He is perfect for a team like Houston or Washington, because they run a ZBS that requires quick, finesse blockers. We run a power system that requires strong power blockers. 10 lbs won't make him a power blocker.

 

 

 

I agree. Athleticism doesn't mean anything as far as I'm concerned. O-lineman can be big, strong, and have excellent footwork, a strong hand punch, and just good general technique and not be "athletic". I'm much more interested in the other things than I am about athleticism.

[Balzer40]

We dont know that we are going to stick to a pure power system without screens and no huddle passing thrown in, that is my bottomline point.

 

Packers run a variation of the WCO, so does Andy Reid, and both McCarthy and Reid like to throw a lot. That is my point, with everyone expecting us to run a WCO like the 49ers or the Stanford Cardinals, which may not be happening.

 

 

Why wouldn't you expect our new OC to run the system he knows the best? Sure, he may throw in variations, but to think he won't stick to what he knows, doesn't really make sense to me.

[chad72]

Why wouldn't you expect our new OC to run the system he knows the best? Sure, he may throw in variations, but to think he won't stick to what he knows, doesn't really make sense to me.

 

Here is the reason. One, when the 49ers began running it, they had a history of highly drafted O-line picks who had been on an NFL regimen for a while before Jim Harbaugh took over. They added more big 2 and 3 TE looks to vary their running game knowing that just having 5 big OL was not going to suffice vs NFL D-lines. Then, they had to add the mobile QB dimension to assist with that.

 

That is not the case with the Colts with Pep Hamilton coming in. Plus, the talent level is not as lop sided like it was with the Stanford Cardinals either for the competition they will face on the field.

 

The Colts won games the last decade (and last season) because they passed the ball and ran it to ice games, at least in the regular season. Passing is still the way to go. It would be a big mistake if Pep Hamilton thinks he can pull the same thing off as Jim Harbaugh with the 49ers with just a few FA OG pickups. You still have to put it on Luck's arm more. The routes may be different but it still has to be passing oriented, IMO, and quick athletic OL will still be needed for the same. Otherwise, expect more and more of the same, Fleener staying in to block inline instead of being able to release as a flanker vs NFL D-lines and front sevens thus reducing his effectiveness and ceiling.

 

There are more teams that stop the run better than the pass in the AFC when it comes to elite teams - Pats, Ravens, Steelers, Texans lead the list for starters. Passing is the way to go.

[Balzer40]

Here is the reason. One, when the 49ers began running it, they had a history of highly drafted O-line picks who had been on an NFL regimen for a while before Jim Harbaugh took over. They added more big 2 and 3 TE looks to vary their running game knowing that just having 5 big OL was not going to suffice vs NFL D-lines. Then, they had to add the mobile QB dimension to assist with that.

 

That is not the case with the Colts with Pep Hamilton coming in. Plus, the talent level is not as lop sided like it was with the Stanford Cardinals either for the competition they will face on the field.

 

The Colts won games the last decade (and last season) because they passed the ball and ran it to ice games, at least in the regular season. Passing is still the way to go. It would be a big mistake if Pep Hamilton thinks he can pull the same thing off as Jim Harbaugh with the 49ers with just a few FA OG pickups. You still have to put it on Luck's arm more. The routes may be different but it still has to be passing oriented, IMO, and quick athletic OL will still be needed for the same. Otherwise, expect more and more of the same, Fleener staying in to block inline instead of being able to release as a flanker vs NFL D-lines and front sevens thus reducing his effectiveness.

 

There are more teams that stop the run better than the pass in the AFC when it comes to elite teams - Pats, Ravens, Steelers, Texans lead the list for starters. Passing is the way to go.

 

 

Well, we don't know what were getting via free agency yet either. We could go from having a terrible O-line to a pretty good o-line. Pep has already stated in numerous interviews he likes a power man running scheme. That doesn't mean we are going to go run heavy every game, and I do think we'll pass more than we'll run, but Pep's system is power based and it's also what Pagano likes. 

 

Pagano and Grigson likes big boy football and the days of finesse are over IMO. Like I said, I fully expect that Pep will have variations thrown into his offense, but he still wants guys up front that are gonna be able to over power their defenders. Were going to use the run to set up the pass and play action and not the other way around IMO.

[BrentMc11]

I disagree strongly. If you want to win in this league, you need OL who can adapt, whether it is run blocking or quick screens/no huddle in the passing game. A young guy like him can put on the weight if his technique and athleticism is good. It is rare to have finished products coming off the draft.

 

Both Marshall Yanda and Michael Oher on the Ravens' O-line are 315 lbs and I am sure if I look harder I can find more. Drafted guys on an NFL regimen can easily put on 10 lbs without losing much athleticism. Terron Armstead is around 306 lbs right now.

 

This is like we Colts fans wanting beef on the D-line. If you had to choose a 310 lbs that is very athletic compared to a 330 lb guy that is not so athletic, I'd go with a playmaking 310 lb guy who can do more vs the pass as well.

 

Bigger is not always better, versatility on top of base talent is very important. O-line play can a lot of times be players playing in sync where the sum of the parts can be greater than the parts themselves.

 

The assumption is Pep Hamilton is going to go WCO along the lines of the 49ers, and I dont think it will end up being the case. Luck will still be throwing way more than Colin Kaepernick, IMO, and we need athletic OL who can do a bit of both eventually.

I agree totally here.  There is a combination of finesse and power needed in the WCO-esque offense.  This is why I would be happy with Levitre too.  

 

I know we have the zone vs. man question, but once again I want a versatile offensive lineman!

[chad72]

Pagano and Grigson likes big boy football and the days of finesse are over IMO. Like I said, I fully expect that Pep will have variations thrown into his offense, but he still wants guys up front that are gonna be able to over power their defenders. Were going to use the run to set up the pass and play action and not the other way around IMO.

 

Yes, I do agree with that. We drafted OLs around 290-300 lbs several times in the past and being a dome team, the finesse reputation came with it because of our pass oriented QB too.

 

The irony is that this scouting profile of Armstead says he could fit a ZBS in the strengths but at the end compares him to Joe Staley of the 49ers who plays in a man/power blocking scheme.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1767688

 

 

At this point, I will just sit back and watch, I guess.

[Balzer40]

Here is the reason. One, when the 49ers began running it, they had a history of highly drafted O-line picks who had been on an NFL regimen for a while before Jim Harbaugh took over. They added more big 2 and 3 TE looks to vary their running game knowing that just having 5 big OL was not going to suffice vs NFL D-lines. Then, they had to add the mobile QB dimension to assist with that.

 

That is not the case with the Colts with Pep Hamilton coming in. Plus, the talent level is not as lop sided like it was with the Stanford Cardinals either for the competition they will face on the field.

 

The Colts won games the last decade (and last season) because they passed the ball and ran it to ice games, at least in the regular season. Passing is still the way to go. It would be a big mistake if Pep Hamilton thinks he can pull the same thing off as Jim Harbaugh with the 49ers with just a few FA OG pickups. You still have to put it on Luck's arm more. The routes may be different but it still has to be passing oriented, IMO, and quick athletic OL will still be needed for the same. Otherwise, expect more and more of the same, Fleener staying in to block inline instead of being able to release as a flanker vs NFL D-lines and front sevens thus reducing his effectiveness and ceiling.

 

There are more teams that stop the run better than the pass in the AFC when it comes to elite teams - Pats, Ravens, Steelers, Texans lead the list for starters. Passing is the way to go.

 

 

 

I want to make it clear, that I'm not completely against Armstead. I just don't know that much about him and I'm afraid he's getting too much love based on a good combine. Everything I've read said he's a zone blocking lineman and we don't play a ZBS. He's also played against very weak competition in college so how would he be against much stronger, quicker, and better athlete's. It's a question that can't be taken lightly IMO.

[BrentMc11]

I want to make it clear, that I'm not completely against Armstead. I just don't know that much about him and I'm afraid he's getting too much love based on a good combine. Everything I've read said he's a zone blocking lineman and we don't play a ZBS. He's also played against very weak competition in college so how would he be against much stronger, quicker, and better athlete's. It's a question that can't be taken lightly IMO.

I would rather have one of the other known commodities if they fall....I still feel we are going defense BPA....

[Mr. Blue]

If Usain Bolt runs a 3.9 40, does that mean he should be taken with the first pick overall because it looks like he'll be a speedy wide receiver who can burn d-backs? Heck no, maybe he's got bricks for hands, or can't hold on to the ball. Games aren't won by how fast you ran one day before you were even in the NFL, it's how you play.

[throwing BBZ]

Moving back with San Fran at 31 or 34 is my GM move.

 

Definitely not a fan of Castonzo as our LT so far. Plain and simple he gets beat off the snap WAY to much for me.
 

For me, it would GREAT if we could draft a guy to compete for the LT position. Let the best man win. With the guys who might be available to us I feel safe in saying Castonzo would win in year one.
The other plays RT and works hard to get better. And HOPEFULLY remains healthy, does get better, and we then have a solid backup or future LT out of it.

Armstead is raw, a bit of a project, and have doubts Griggs slots him at 31 or 34. Oh the Intrigue!

 

[NewColtsFan]

As the Godfather of trading back here, I'd be OK with taking the Armstead kid at the top of the 2nd round...

 

Perhaps we're planning on moving AC to RT?     Don't know.

 

But I'm not ready to pronounce someone as not the right fit when he's this much of a project.   I think we can make this kid into whatever we want.

 

I think he's that skilled....

[pacolts56]

There are more teams that stop the run better than the pass in the AFC when it comes to elite teams - Pats, Ravens, Steelers, Texans lead the list for starters. Passing is the way to go.

Chad....IMO that's all the more reason to pursue a physically punishing run capability and the O-linemen to make it happen.

 

Those very teams not only understand the importance of stopping the run....something we also suck at....but in their SB winning years they also ran the ball very effectively and very physically themselves. Our ability to do that....and I don't mean fully depending on it....is what we need to add to this offense.

 

Andrew Luck proved his ability to pass at a very high level even when he was saddled with deplorable pass-blocking in front of him....so its pretty safe to say we're not going to be a "3 yards and a cloud of dust" offense.

 

In adding the rushing attack we need and given the choice of finesse, misdirection type zone blocking OR the man/power system that wears down the opposition much more as the game moves along....I'd prefer we employ the man/power system. If Hamilton can develop an effective hybrid of them, then fine.

 

Yes...we need good pass-blocking, but we also have to be able to pound the crap out of playoff level defenses and seize some time of possession. We can't go back to getting physically dominated in the trenches....because its killed us in the past.

[Boiler_Colt]

If we move back that far I hope someone like Elam, Cyprien, Warford, or Kyle Long is still there to take. I'd be extremely happy with any of those guys plus an extra 3rd round pick.

[chad72]

Chad....IMO that's all the more reason to pursue a physically punishing run capability and the O-linemen to make it happen.

 

Yes...we need good pass-blocking, but we also have to be able to pound the crap out of playoff level defenses and seize some time of possession. We can't go back to getting physically dominated in the trenches....because its killed us in the past.

 

We needed better situational running on O and run stopping on D. We dont have to pound them all game, is what I am getting at. We had a finesse line that worked together well and magically ran well vs the mighty Ravens in the 15-6 2006 playoff game to ice the game with a 5th FG (I am using that game as an example because that is the signature road win with a run game during our SB run, everything else came at home and of course the one vs the Bears was impressive in the SB too). Still, we had to complete passes to move the chains on 3rd downs several times and finished the years tops in league in 3rd down conversion. While I agree that we dont need to go that route of assembling a finesse line again, we do not need to pigeon hole a guy as unfit, like NewColtsFan said, when he is considered a project.

 

With shorter passes and a QB that can run for occasional 1st down yardage on 3rd downs and situational running, I believe we can accomplish similar results and win time of possession.  Eli did that vs the Pats in the 2007 SB, shrinking the game by controlling clock, other than the Giants' D playing well. Saints did the dink and dunk vs the Colts controlling time of possession slowly gaining an edge in the SB vs us.

 

Our memories are all from our Foxboro losses and the game has changed since then, which is what Polian lobbied hard for. Big Ben, Rodgers, Brees, Eli, and recently Flacco have all won SBs primarily with their arm with good situational running and D contributing. Situational running will prevent those 3rd and 1 failures before the half in the SB 44, 3rd and 1 failures vs the Jets in the 2010 playoff loss etc. but it still does not mean we have to become a power running team. Luck's arm is still going to be the reason we will win a SB. 

[pacolts56]

We needed better situational running on O and run stopping on D. We dont have to pound them all game, is what I am getting at. We had a finesse line that worked together well and magically ran well vs the mighty Ravens in the 15-6 2006 playoff game to ice the game with a 5th FG (I am using that game as an example because that is the signature road win with a run game during our SB run, everything else came at home and of course the one vs the Bears was impressive in the SB too). Still, we had to complete passes to move the chains on 3rd downs several times and finished the years tops in league in 3rd down conversion. While I agree that we dont need to go that route of assembling a finesse line again, we do not need to pigeon hole a guy as unfit, like NewColtsFan said, when he is considered a project.

 

With shorter passes and a QB that can run for occasional 1st down yardage on 3rd downs and situational running, I believe we can accomplish similar results and win time of possession.  Eli did that vs the Pats in the 2007 SB, shrinking the game by controlling clock, other than the Giants' D playing well. Saints did the dink and dunk vs the Colts controlling time of possession slowly gaining an edge in the SB vs us.

 

Our memories are all from our Foxboro losses and the game has changed since then, which is what Polian lobbied hard for. Big Ben, Rodgers, Brees, Eli, and recently Flacco have all won SBs primarily with their arm with good situational running and D contributing. Situational running will prevent those 3rd and 1 failures before the half in the SB 44, 3rd and 1 failures vs the Jets in the 2010 playoff loss etc. but it still does not mean we have to become a power running team. Luck's arm is still going to be the reason we will win a SB. 

I agree that those guys had SB success with "situational" running and weren't running old school 1970s ground and pound offenses...but their O-line personnel allowed for consistent, physical between the tackles rushing when they chose to do that. Their rushing attacks commanded attention...our rushing attack from 2007 on struck fear into exactly no one.

 

We can do both and what I'm saying is that the finesse, zone scheme guys like we had in the past with our overemphasized pass-first mentality ....along with terrible run defense....cost us 1-2 additional Super Bowls after we beat the Bears. Let's not fall into that same trap again.

 

Physical man/power scheme O-linemen and a more effective run game doesn't even require a whole lot of $$$$ to achieve, just different skill set guys and a more balanced emphasis. There's no need to over-correct with a 60/40 run-pass balance, but I'm for giving Luck every possible tool an offense can have as we rebuild...knowing he's plenty smart enough to use all of them.

[Jay Kirk]

I want to make it clear, that I'm not completely against Armstead. I just don't know that much about him and I'm afraid he's getting too much love based on a good combine. Everything I've read said he's a zone blocking lineman and we don't play a ZBS. He's also played against very weak competition in college so how would he be against much stronger, quicker, and better athlete's. It's a question that can't be taken lightly IMO.

 

 

I agree totally here.  There is a combination of finesse and power needed in the WCO-esque offense.  This is why I would be happy with Levitre too.  

 

I know we have the zone vs. man question, but once again I want a versatile offensive lineman!

I would have to agree with you both,the combine is really all about athletisism does not prove what transfers on the field but if you got skills to go with the former sure does help

[Archer]

I don't know, man.  RT seems to me like one that I'd go for in FA.  We need to shore up the right side of the line, and I only really see developmental guys available to us in the draft (like Armstead).  Someone like Gosder Cherilus may seem like an unsexy option, but he'd be a huge upgrade for us at RT and he'd start from Day 1...

[pacolts56]

I don't know, man.  RT seems to me like one that I'd go for in FA.  We need to shore up the right side of the line, and I only really see developmental guys available to us in the draft (like Armstead).  Someone like Gosder Cherilus may seem like an unsexy option, but he'd be a huge upgrade for us at RT and he'd start from Day 1...

I totally agree on the free agent approach to one OG spot and the RT position.

 

Cherilus doesn't get anyone doing backflips around here....but the guy has graded out well and he'd probably come at a value price vs Vollmer or Andre Smith.