RG way ahead of schedule for return

[jvan1973]

I'm just saying that it's been around longer than people think, whether it was highly popular or not.

The veer and triple option have been around a long time. You think they would be good long term in the NFL?

[Qwiz]

The veer and triple option have been around a long time. You think they would be good long term in the NFL?

I don't know, if some coach wants to be cute and use them one year and gets his team to the Super Bowl, maybe they could be.

Chip Kelly, I'm looking at you.

[jvan1973]

I don't know, if some coach wants to be cute and use them one year and gets his team to the Super Bowl, maybe they could be.

Chip Kelly, I'm looking at you.

He coaches a spread offense

[Qwiz]

He coaches a spread offense

I was being hypothetical. If someone did decide to run the triple option I would think having a quarterback like Vick and a runningback like McCoy would be a good start. Again, we are being extreme here. Just because the pistol offense was successful this past year I'm not saying that any old offense can be thrown into the NFL.

[BrentMc11]

@ RG III said  "I get it.  I'm just saying that you have to be real careful if that's what you want to do because there are ways to exploit it.  Griffin was also starting to get some of that high profile franchise QB referee favoritism late in the season ala Brady and Manning where defenses got some phantom calls made against them on contact."

 

Another solid post.  I think RG3, Kaep and Wilson were getting some NFL love so to speak.  If you play 'dirty,' it will come back and haunt you.  If you go out and hit...make plays and can walk that tight rope......as you say "You need to be careful" and not be a big mouth to the media and to the league on the topic..."How do you plan to stop.......whomever"  Just go out and do it!!

 

Multi-qute did not cooperate this time

[BrentMc11]

The veer and triple option have been around a long time. You think they would be good long term in the NFL?

These ARE variations of the mid 1960s veer/option.......the first time i saw the offense I knew it. Played against it from pee wee to college...not new stuff

[amfootball]

You're right. Tebow was a threat to throw....in the last five minutes of the 4th quarter. I'm one of the biggest Tebow fans out there but his skill set is not comparable to Griffin's. The pistol has been used for more than a decade now and will not fizzle like the wildcat. Flank the pitchman all you want, but be warned: These guys can and will throw it over your LBs.

You are not being fair or accurate of Tebow. Flacco throws under 60 percent and just won the SB. Tebow threw ALL over the steelers that game not just in the fourth. Even when the steelers adjusted their D, he still threw on them. I think Griffin had issues with the short and intermidiate throws like Tebow so I actually think the comparison is more similar than you care to admit. The issue for Griffin is he is smaller than Vick and will not be able to withstand the pounding week in and week out. And I have not seen the pistol at the NFL level for a decade, not sure where you are getting that, college maybe? I mean the wildcat came from there too. Pro defenses figure things out quickly so the read option most likely will go the way of the wild cat. You will see it but it will be done much more sparingly. This is why by the way, you want Luck as QB every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[amfootball]

Steelers blew the coverage on Thomas in OT which is the only reason Tebow got to 300 yards (a number that is by far a career outlier for Timmy Tim Tim Tim) and even that wasn't a great pass.  I don't understand how some people think that a guy who can't even complete 50% of his passes is a capable QB.  Tebow is not a good passer even by the QBing standards of 50 years ago.

 

Did you watch the Steelers and Redskins game?  They didn't even have to defend the zone read that much because we played from behind all game and aired it out far more than we'd have liked to.  The stats show Griffin ran 6 times for 8 yards but those numbers include two sneaks to push the ball out of the end zone for a kneel down at the half (3/6 runs), a kneel to end the game (4/6), and a scramble for the end zone from inside the five yard line (5/6).  The only time Griffin took off with it on the zone read play went for an easy 7 yard gain and Alfred Morris was pretty effective on it when it went to him.  Where they did a good job of hitting Griffin was on conventional pass plays.

 

That game was lopsided because the execution was very poor (our receivers dropped a TON of passes, including several would-be TDs) and it was our worst game of the season by far in terms of offensive play-calling.  Lots of head scratchers in that game.  All-in-all, the Steelers responded more poorly to our misdirection elements than most people would believe based on the outcome.

He was throwing all over the steelers all day and that was not a blown coverage. Ike Taylor was just beat by Thomas because the entire Steelers D thought run on first down from the Denver 20. Funny how you want to credit RG but not Tebow.

 

In terms of the Steelers game, I did watch it. The Steelers would not allow RG to run the option effectively. They crowded the line, pressured up the middle and covered well. There were dropped passes but if the zone option is not viable in a come from behind situation than you are proving my point about its effectiveness and the redskins will be at a significant disadvantage next season and the seasons to come. As I have been saying, in the end the only offense that has been effective in the NFL whether you have the lead or not is a QB that can drop back, read the defense, and make a quality decision. There is no defense for that. It works in every situation, every time. I like the read option as a change of pace but that is all it will be in the next couple of seasons. Not sure how RG will handle that as it seems to be a big part of his game unlike Kaep and Wilson who look very capable of being pocket guys and using the run when it makes sense.

[Qwiz]

You are not being fair or accurate of Tebow. Flacco throws under 60 percent and just won the SB. Tebow threw ALL over the steelers that game not just in the fourth. Even when the steelers adjusted their D, he still threw on them. I think Griffin had issues with the short and intermidiate throws like Tebow so I actually think the comparison is more similar than you care to admit. The issue for Griffin is he is smaller than Vick and will not be able to withstand the pounding week in and week out. And I have not seen the pistol at the NFL level for a decade, not sure where you are getting that, college maybe? I mean the wildcat came from there too. Pro defenses figure things out quickly so the read option most likely will go the way of the wild cat. You will see it but it will be done much more sparingly. This is why by the way, you want Luck as QB every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

-__- No, I don't want 12 as QB every day of the week. You might, but that's your preference. Griffin struggled on his short throws??? Are you kidding me??? I'm sure all the Colts fans here will point out to you otherwise, as it has been used in many arguments that the offense Shanahan employs is a "dink and dunk" offense utilizing short plays and throwing off the first read. Tebow is nothing like Griffin, are you kidding me? Griffin is more comparable to Tom Brady than to Tebow. And you say that Vick is bigger than Griffin...Vick is 6 foot 215. Griff is 6'2 217. Not sure where you got that from. The pistol has been around for over a decade, not necessarily used in the NFL for over a decade. And no, the read option is not going to go the way of the wild cat. Not at all. We will see how well offenses adapt to it next year. Until then, I'll take a quarterback who can throw and run any day of the week.

[Qwiz]

He was throwing all over the steelers all day and that was not a blown coverage. Ike Taylor was just beat by Thomas because the entire Steelers D thought run on first down from the Denver 20. Funny how you want to credit RG but not Tebow.

 

In terms of the Steelers game, I did watch it. The Steelers would not allow RG to run the option effectively. They crowded the line, pressured up the middle and covered well. There were dropped passes but if the zone option is not viable in a come from behind situation than you are proving my point about its effectiveness and the redskins will be at a significant disadvantage next season and the seasons to come. As I have been saying, in the end the only offense that has been effective in the NFL whether you have the lead or not is a QB that can drop back, read the defense, and make a quality decision. There is no defense for that. It works in every situation, every time. I like the read option as a change of pace but that is all it will be in the next couple of seasons. Not sure how RG will handle that as it seems to be a big part of his game unlike Kaep and Wilson who look very capable of being pocket guys and using the run when it makes sense.

I don't see where this stereotype of Griffin not being a capable passer comes from. He is as good in the pocket as he is outside it. Guy has a 102.4 passer rating and threw for 3200 yards.

[jvan1973]

-__- No, I don't want 12 as QB every day of the week. You might, but that's your preference. Griffin struggled on his short throws??? Are you kidding me??? I'm sure all the Colts fans here will point out to you otherwise, as it has been used in many arguments that the offense Shanahan employs is a "dink and dunk" offense utilizing short plays and throwing off the first read. Tebow is nothing like Griffin, are you kidding me? Griffin is more comparable to Tom Brady than to Tebow. And you say that Vick is bigger than Griffin...Vick is 6 foot 215. Griff is 6'2 217. Not sure where you got that from. The pistol has been around for over a decade, not necessarily used in the NFL for over a decade. And no, the read option is not going to go the way of the wild cat. Not at all. We will see how well offenses adapt to it next year. Until then, I'll take a quarterback who can throw and run any day of the week.

How well did he run and throw the last week? Prepare for more of that. He is brittle. Two ACL tears in three seasons. Not good news for a guy who runs as much as he does

[Qwiz]

How well did he run and throw the last week? Prepare for more of that. He is brittle. Two ACL tears in three seasons. Not good news for a guy who runs as much as he does

Well this is the NFL. People get hurt. We've seen as recently as this season that one can come back and dominate at their position. He gave his team the lead the last week he played, if I'm not mistaken. He also got them to the playoffs and won the division for the first time in years. You should prepare for more of that. Griffin is a smart kid and I doubt he'll be as hardheaded now about going out of bounds and such. Guy is a great player and we will see 10+ years of excellence.

[RGIII]

He was throwing all over the steelers all day and that was not a blown coverage. Ike Taylor was just beat by Thomas because the entire Steelers D thought run on first down from the Denver 20. Funny how you want to credit RG but not Tebow.

 

In terms of the Steelers game, I did watch it. The Steelers would not allow RG to run the option effectively. They crowded the line, pressured up the middle and covered well. There were dropped passes but if the zone option is not viable in a come from behind situation than you are proving my point about its effectiveness and the redskins will be at a significant disadvantage next season and the seasons to come. As I have been saying, in the end the only offense that has been effective in the NFL whether you have the lead or not is a QB that can drop back, read the defense, and make a quality decision. There is no defense for that. It works in every situation, every time. I like the read option as a change of pace but that is all it will be in the next couple of seasons. Not sure how RG will handle that as it seems to be a big part of his game unlike Kaep and Wilson who look very capable of being pocket guys and using the run when it makes sense.

 

I credit Griffin as a good passer and Tebow as a poor one because Tebow doesn't make those plays consistently.  With Griffin those kinds of throws are the norm and he is capable of much more spectacular feats with his arm.  With Tebow they are the exception to the rule.  Tebow "throwing all over" the Steelers translated to him completing a whopping 10 passes out of 21 attempts (47% completion rate).

 

It seems a bit to me like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Redskins offense.  We are not a zone read oriented team.  It's one of our better tricks in a rather large bag of them but it's not something we have to depend on to win games.  In fact, we use it far more sparingly than public perception would indicate.  Fact is, we want teams to crowd the line and try to send pressure.  Griffin was one of, if not the best in the NFL against the blitz in 2012 and we absolutely tore teams up through the air when they got too focused on the ground game.  Oh... and running as a whole (read option or conventional) tends not to be very viable when you're down significantly in a game.  You're not actually finding a crack in the armor there, you're just re-discovering a general truism about time management.

 

Griffin can already drop back, read defenses, and make quality decisions.  I don't think you've seen enough of him if you haven't recognized that.  He needs to improve his sense of timing going through his progressions going into year two (all rookies have something they need to work on, after all) but his field vision, release speed, and accuracy are phenomenal.

[amfootball]

I credit Griffin as a good passer and Tebow as a poor one because Tebow doesn't make those plays consistently.  With Griffin those kinds of throws are the norm and he is capable of much more spectacular feats with his arm.  With Tebow they are the exception to the rule.  Tebow "throwing all over" the Steelers translated to him completing a whopping 10 passes out of 21 attempts (47% completion rate).

 

It seems a bit to me like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Redskins offense.  We are not a zone read oriented team.  It's one of our better tricks in a rather large bag of them but it's not something we have to depend on to win games.  In fact, we use it far more sparingly than public perception would indicate.  Fact is, we want teams to crowd the line and try to send pressure.  Griffin was one of, if not the best in the NFL against the blitz in 2012 and we absolutely tore teams up through the air when they got too focused on the ground game.  Oh... and running as a whole (read option or conventional) tends not to be very viable when you're down significantly in a game.  You're not actually finding a crack in the armor there, you're just re-discovering a general truism about time management.

 

Griffin can already drop back, read defenses, and make quality decisions.  I don't think you've seen enough of him if you haven't recognized that.  He needs to improve his sense of timing going through his progressions going into year two (all rookies have something they need to work on, after all) but his field vision, release speed, and accuracy are phenomenal.

In fairness, the last few weeks of the season he looked pretty bad and I think that was more to do with the injury than his ability from the pocket. You may also want to see the Griffin was not very good on third down which is the money down in the NFL. I like the guy but he is a huge risk with this size and style. That being said, I think Shanahan will figure it out (hopefully) so they guy can continue develop his pocket presence and take less hits. I mean something has to change.

[RGIII]

In fairness, the last few weeks of the season he looked pretty bad and I think that was more to do with the injury than his ability from the pocket. You may also want to see the Griffin was not very good on third down which is the money down in the NFL. I like the guy but he is a huge risk with this size and style. That being said, I think Shanahan will figure it out (hopefully) so they guy can continue develop his pocket presence and take less hits. I mean something has to change.

 

After the Ravens game Griffin wasn't throwing or running at anything even approaching what he was before.  Believe me, his lack of comfort planting his bad leg was evident even before he completely blew out his knee in the playoffs.  The difference was night and day.  We just thought that it was something that was more manageable than proved to be the case.  Learned a lot about Griffin's toughness through that whole ordeal... not too many players know they've re-torn their ACL and insist on continuing to play.

 

The change has to start with altering Griffin's mentality.  The scheme is pretty fundamentally sound and shouldn't cause Griffin to undergo too much abuse by itself.  The unacceptable volume of contact has come primarily from Griffin's overwhelming and largely unnecessary desire to be tough, get the extra yard, and win at all costs.

[Jules]

Even if RG3 missed a game or two to start the year whats the big deal? They might be able to make due short term, but might depend on who they are playing of course. Until proven otherwise I would give them the top spot in the NFC East unless the Giants get back on track. The Giants tend to almost ALWAYS start 6-2 and get our hopes up for a huge SB run then fall apart in most years.

 

Not sure what the Cowboys/Eagles will offer us this year. But, RG3 gave the Giants fits last year......

[amfootball]

Even if RG3 missed a game or two to start the year whats the big deal? They might be able to make due short term, but might depend on who they are playing of course. Until proven otherwise I would give them the top spot in the NFC East unless the Giants get back on track. The Giants tend to almost ALWAYS start 6-2 and get our hopes up for a huge SB run then fall apart in most years.

 

Not sure what the Cowboys/Eagles will offer us this year. But, RG3 gave the Giants fits last year......

I may get killed for saying this but I don't think Shanhan wants anyone to see Cousins again and have a QB controversy on his hands. Counsins was very impressive the few times he did play. I also believe had be played the second half or even the fourth quarter of the Seattle playoff game the skins win. He was money.

[RGIII]

I may get killed for saying this but I don't think Shanhan wants anyone to see Cousins again and have a QB controversy on his hands. Counsins was very impressive the few times he did play. I also believe had be played the second half or even the fourth quarter of the Seattle playoff game the skins win. He was money.

 

I promise you that is not a concern.  Cousins is not as good as the Browns game made him look.  He's much more turnover prone, much less comfortable under pressure, and he doesn't have the speed or arm strength to hold a candle to Griffin.  I'm glad to have him on the team and think more highly of him than, say, Brandon Weeden but that's not saying a whole lot at this point.

 

If he has to start and plays well then that just increases his trade value or, at the very least, gets him some additional prep should the worst happen to Griffin down the line.

[Qwiz]

I promise you that is not a concern.  Cousins is not as good as the Browns game made him look.  He's much more turnover prone, much less comfortable under pressure, and he doesn't have the speed or arm strength to hold a candle to Griffin.  I'm glad to have him on the team and think more highly of him than, say, Brandon Weeden but that's not saying a whole lot at this point.

 

If he has to start and plays well then that just increases his trade value or, at the very least, gets him some additional prep should the worst happen to Griffin down the line.

Griffin>>>Cousins

12>>>Harnish

Wilson>>>Jackson

Weeden<<<McCoy

[Dustin]

Griffin>>>Cousins

12>>>Harnish

Wilson>>>Jackson

Weeden<<<McCoy

I think you mean Wilson >>>>>> Flynn

[Qwiz]

I think you mean Wilson >>>>>> Flynn

Oh yeah...I forgot about Flynn. Sitting behind a third-rounder now. Poor guy can't catch a break, but yep, you're right. Wilson>>>Flynn

[amfootball]

I promise you that is not a concern.  Cousins is not as good as the Browns game made him look.  He's much more turnover prone, much less comfortable under pressure, and he doesn't have the speed or arm strength to hold a candle to Griffin.  I'm glad to have him on the team and think more highly of him than, say, Brandon Weeden but that's not saying a whole lot at this point.

 

If he has to start and plays well then that just increases his trade value or, at the very least, gets him some additional prep should the worst happen to Griffin down the line.

He looked much better than that to me. And pure skills, arm strength, speed, etc., is never the final judging stick for a QB. From what I saw he had tremendous poise in the pocket, very good decision making (not sure how many TDs he had to picks) and played well under pressure especially in the Ravens game when he came in relief and scored the tying TD, two point conversion, and then won it in OT. Like I said money.

 

And you can't trade him. This is just like Michael Vick and Matt Schaub. He may end up playing 3-4 games a year or more. Plus, he was a fourth round pick that raised a lot of eyebrows when Shanahan took him that high given what he gave up to get RG. Obviously, Mike had concerns about RGs durability. Brilliant move by Mike but I am not sure if he even expected Cousins to look that good in year one.

[BrentMc11]

Griffin>>>Cousins

12>>>Harnish

Wilson>>>Jackson

Weeden<<<McCoy

Grant >/= Lee............Most would say Lee > Grant.................sorry I thought you were talking Civil War Generals 

[Jay Kirk]

Grant >/= Lee............Most would say Lee > Grant.................sorry I thought you were talking Civil War Generals 

 Good one

[BrentMc11]

 Good one

Out of likes....I had fun with that one  

 

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[Qwiz]

Grant >/= Lee............Most would say Lee > Grant.................sorry I thought you were talking Civil War Generals

Huskies>>>Dobermans

[BrentMc11]

Huskies>>>Dobermans

Only because of the fur.....  Woof!

[RGIII]

He looked much better than that to me. And pure skills, arm strength, speed, etc., is never the final judging stick for a QB. From what I saw he had tremendous poise in the pocket, very good decision making (not sure how many TDs he had to picks) and played well under pressure especially in the Ravens game when he came in relief and scored the tying TD, two point conversion, and then won it in OT. Like I said money.

 

And you can't trade him. This is just like Michael Vick and Matt Schaub. He may end up playing 3-4 games a year or more. Plus, he was a fourth round pick that raised a lot of eyebrows when Shanahan took him that high given what he gave up to get RG. Obviously, Mike had concerns about RGs durability. Brilliant move by Mike but I am not sure if he even expected Cousins to look that good in year one.

 

Cousins' pocket poise is not fantastic, he certainly doesn't really move around the pocket especially well when the pressure is coming but he is mobile enough to escape contain at times.  His decision making is merely okay but he doesn't always make the throws to back up his choices.  The end result was that he threw three picks in three regular season appearances.  I have to reiterate... I really like Cousins BUT he only had to make two passes in the Ravens game and the Browns game was highly misleading because of the way the Browns chose to defend us (they decided to stop Alfred Morris at ALL costs, completely ignoring the threat of the pass and not even bothering to contain the bootleg or play a little pass defense).

 

If Cousins plays well enough to merit serious consideration by other NFL teams as a starter and Griffin is mostly healthy then you HAVE to trade him eventually if you want to get a return on your investment.  No QB is content to be a backup forever and you can't franchise a QB who you don't intend to start.

[amfootball]

Cousins' pocket poise is not fantastic, he certainly doesn't really move around the pocket especially well when the pressure is coming but he is mobile enough to escape contain at times.  His decision making is merely okay but he doesn't always make the throws to back up his choices.  The end result was that he threw three picks in three regular season appearances.  I have to reiterate... I really like Cousins BUT he only had to make two passes in the Ravens game and the Browns game was highly misleading because of the way the Browns chose to defend us (they decided to stop Alfred Morris at ALL costs, completely ignoring the threat of the pass and not even bothering to contain the bootleg or play a little pass defense).

 

If Cousins plays well enough to merit serious consideration by other NFL teams as a starter and Griffin is mostly healthy then you HAVE to trade him eventually if you want to get a return on your investment.  No QB is content to be a backup forever and you can't franchise a QB who you don't intend to start.

I don't think you are being fair to Counsins. He is not RG. He is more of a traditional pocket guy. When I said poise, I didn't mean his ability to escape the pocket, but his ability to read the defense and keep his eyes downfield. I don't think three picks in three games is a lot. How many TDs did he have?

 

He played lights out against Cleveland who had a very good defense all year. And I don't think you are giving him enough credit in the ravens game. He had to make key plays with the game on the line when RG went out. He converted not only the TD but the two point conversion. That is clutch and made people's heads turn especially considering he came in off the bench cold. Something else to consider if he does not beat the ravens and browns the redskins don't make the playoffs. I think you have to keep him at least for the next two seasons to see how RG comes along. If RG comes back healthly and can stay healthy which is the tougher prop for him than I think you look to unload Cousins. But as I said before, right now you are in the Vick/Schaub situation only Vick did not tear his ACL twice in the same knee within three years. If anything, Cousins is huge insurance at this point. Hey, it could be worse. Remember for the last two decades the redskins have not had one good QB let alone two quality guys. :-)

[RGIII]

I don't think you are being fair to Counsins. He is not RG. He is more of a traditional pocket guy. When I said poise, I didn't mean his ability to escape the pocket, but his ability to read the defense and keep his eyes downfield. I don't think three picks in three games is a lot. How many TDs did he have?

 

He played lights out against Cleveland who had a very good defense all year. And I don't think you are giving him enough credit in the ravens game. He had to make key plays with the game on the line when RG went out. He converted not only the TD but the two point conversion. That is clutch and made people's heads turn especially considering he came in off the bench cold. Something else to consider if he does not beat the ravens and browns the redskins don't make the playoffs. I think you have to keep him at least for the next two seasons to see how RG comes along. If RG comes back healthly and can stay healthy which is the tougher prop for him than I think you look to unload Cousins. But as I said before, right now you are in the Vick/Schaub situation only Vick did not tear his ACL twice in the same knee within three years. If anything, Cousins is huge insurance at this point. Hey, it could be worse. Remember for the last two decades the redskins have not had one good QB let alone two quality guys. :-)

 

I'm being realistic about Cousins.  Pocket presence isn't about escapability and I never implied it was.  I simply said he does possess some escapability but his pocket presence was not fantastic.  Most QBs look capable from a clean pocket, so I don't consider that a good measure of pocket presence.  Cousins looks extremely uncomfortable in the pocket when pressure is coming and isn't the quickest getting the ball out in that situation.  I'm not a harsh critic of the kid at all but when you aren't acknowledging his flaws I don't have much of a choice but to point out why I don't think he's capable of creating a legitimate QB controversy.

 

Cleveland may have had a stout defense but their defensive gameplan that day failed them.  When you don't worry about the possibility of a pass against a team that does a lot of play action you are going to be in worlds of trouble.  I was thrilled with that game and happy for Cousins but I knew even then that it went that well for our passing game only because Cleveland refused to adjust to stop it.

 

The Vick/Schaub situation was different in that only one of those two guys could pass adequately and he was the one who got traded.