Brees vs Other Elite QBs

[IndyTrav]

Lots of Brees action lately, so I was wanting to compare him to other 'elite' NFL QBs. I think we can all pretty much agree that the elite 4 QBs in the NFL are Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. I include Brees in the elite category, but I do feel he is the lesser of the 4. I feel Brees has more going for him in terms of surrounding cast than any other of the elite QBs. Between coaching, weapons, OL, run game, indoors etc.

Alot of attention is paid to Brees stats. So I wanted to dive a little deeper into them. Starting with Brees and his backfield options, who are some of the best pass catching RBs in the league. (FB were not included)

Since 2008: (Manning missed 2011, Brady 2008)

Brees: 1692comp. 19553yds, 147TDs....RBs 467rec, 3495yds, 25TDs....

Rodgers: 1346comp. 17047yds, 131TDs....RBs 202rec, 1639yds, 6TDs.....

Brady: 1096comp. 13533yds, 103TDs....RBs 170rec, 1569yds, 2TDs.....

Manning 1214comp, 13202yds, 93TDs....RBs 204rec, 1596yds, 8TDs....

Brees completed 27% of his passes to a RB, 17% of his yards, 17% of his TDs....Rodgers 15%/9%/4%...Brady 15%/11%/1%...Manning 16%/12%/8%.....

I think this would severally inflate his comp% #'s which he has led the league in in the past 3 years.

[Captain Americolt]

Yeah i've noticed Brees does alot of checkdowns. And with Sproles, the best receiving back in the game today, his stats could only get better.

[21isSuperman]

One could say that he takes the easy way out, but one could also say that if the weapon is there, why not use it? Tom Brady threw 23 TD passes to Randy Moss in one season. Is it better to throw 5 TDs each to 4 receivers or 23 TDs to 1 receiver? If you have the weapon, why not use it? Addai, Brown, Green-Ellis, Maroney, none of these guys were the open-field threats that Sproles and Bush were/are. If you have the weapon there and you can use him to score TDs, why not use him?

[LuckyColt]

As much as I believe in Peyton, I'm reserving judgement on his elite status. He WAS elite. We have to see him in a few games before we give him such an illustrious title. He was showing signs of regression in 2010, who knows where he is at now without seeing him play.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Interesting post. I wanted to approach it from a different perspective. Instead of labeling it throws to a RB, or what have you, I wanted to crunch the #'s on the length of the pass.

Brees does have the highest % of passes behind the LOS, but he is also more accurate at most of the other levels down the field as well.

For Brees, Rodgers, & Brady the #'s are from the last 3 years. For Manning, it was for his last thee years, 2010,2009, & 2008.

Just throwing the info out there for those interested in it.

[Gavin]

As much as I believe in Peyton, I'm reserving judgement on his elite status. He WAS elite. We have to see him in a few games before we give him such an illustrious title. He was showing signs of regression in 2010, who knows where he is at now without seeing him play.

Im not sure about the whole signs of regression in 2010 he threw for a career high in yards and threw for 33 touchdowns and 17 interceptions, Now I didnt think to notice him physically I guess you can say I took for granted he was just there and was just his normal self

[LuckyColt]

Im not sure about the whole signs of regression in 2010 he threw for a career high in yards and threw for 33 touchdowns and 17 interceptions, Now I didnt think to notice him physically I guess you can say I took for granted he was just there and was just his normal self

That post was definitely not a dig at Peyton. But he has got to earn back his title of best in the league. As far as regression, in 2010 he had his lowest quarterback rating since 2002. And he also looked physically weaker.

[MAC]

As much as I believe in Peyton, I'm reserving judgement on his elite status. He WAS elite. We have to see him in a few games before we give him such an illustrious title. He was showing signs of regression in 2010, who knows where he is at now without seeing him play.

We are all waiting to see how he recovers, but I don't understand what "regression" you are referring to in 2010. The team was devastated by injuries at the skill positions, and the offensive line was horrific. The running game was virtually non-existent. The defensive vulnerabilities (largely due to even more injuries at DB than at WR/TE/RB) put even MORE pressure on Peyton to make something happen with every opportunity. The net effect was that Peyton had no time to throw, and his average yards per attempt suffered as a result. The fact that he rose above all that to lead the team to the playoffs - with a lot of brilliantly irrational victories - is what made him - once again - an mvp contender. I'd take that Peyton over the one from 1998-2004 or so. It was a superb season for him.

[FireJimCaldwell]

As much as I believe in Peyton, I'm reserving judgement on his elite status. He WAS elite. We have to see him in a few games before we give him such an illustrious title. He was showing signs of regression in 2010, who knows where he is at now without seeing him play.

I'd have to disagree with the regression claim.

His start to the 2010 season was among his best starts, i.e top 3 or so.

Injuries happened elsewhere... New players came in.... Manning did the best with what he had.

In fact one could argue he threw the ball as good or better than Brady, Brady just had far better results after the catch was made.

Considering I feel he's played the biggest part of the past 74 games injured, his production in that time frame has been outstanding.

If his interception issue (3 game stretch in 2010) had continued for the rest of the season then I could see some regression. I think it was more of the replacements getting up to speed. If Manning was guilty of anything in 2010 it might have been pressing or trying to do too much, but that is how it goes.

He had a three game stretch as bad as any in his career, but I put the onus of that on the injuries and the team adjusting on the fly. I'll give him the benefit of doubt. He's earned that. Well he did earn that, not that it mattered.

Again, you'll have to click the image to be able to read it. I'm not sure why the code of this forum is set up that way.

[Gavin]

That post was definitely not a dig at Peyton. But he has got to earn back his title of best in the league. As far as regression, in 2010 he had his lowest quarterback rating since 2002. And he also looked physically weaker.

Oh I know it wasnt a dig and I agree he has to earn it back no question

[Fx Stryker]

Interesting post. I wanted to approach it from a different perspective. Instead of labeling it throws to a RB, or what have you, I wanted to crunch the #'s on the length of the pass.

Cool, now I don't have to continue to make this. Thanks FJC.

If his interception issue (3 game stretch in 2010) had continued for the rest of the season then I could see some regression. I think it was more of the replacements getting up to speed. If Manning was guilty of anything in 2010 it might have been pressing or trying to do too much, but that is how it goes.

He had a three game stretch as bad as any in his career, but I put the onus of that on the injuries and the team adjusting on the fly. I'll give him the benefit of doubt. He's earned that. Well he did earn that, not that it mattered.

Peyton was the MVP favorite before the New England, San Diego, Dallas games. He has an amazing year sans those three games.

[LuckyColt]

I totally hijacked this thread. Sorry. I guess what I was driving at was I believed he was physically weaker than ever. You can blame his QBR on injuries, but I think that's being a little generous. Jacob Tamme largely filled the role of Dallas; Tamme had 2/3 the amount of receptions Dallas had during his statistically best season, and that's pretty darned good. Collie played more than half of the season, and we still had Garcon and Wayne ahead of him ready to go. Blame it on the O-Line and halfback injuries and you may have a case, but we were far from a running team.

[IndyTrav]

Interesting post. I wanted to approach it from a different perspective. Instead of labeling it throws to a RB, or what have you, I wanted to crunch the #'s on the length of the pass.

Brees does have the highest % of passes behind the LOS, but he is also more accurate at most of the other levels down the field as well.

For Brees, Rodgers, & Brady the #'s are from the last 3 years. For Manning, it was for his last thee years, 2010,2009, & 2008.

Just throwing the info out there for those interested in it.

Good stuff FJC

[Captain Americolt]

Interesting post. I wanted to approach it from a different perspective. Instead of labeling it throws to a RB, or what have you, I wanted to crunch the #'s on the length of the pass.

Brees does have the highest % of passes behind the LOS, but he is also more accurate at most of the other levels down the field as well.

For Brees, Rodgers, & Brady the #'s are from the last 3 years. For Manning, it was for his last thee years, 2010,2009, & 2008.

Just throwing the info out there for those interested in it.

Woah Peyton only attempted 6 passes in the past three years that were 41+ yards or more? It seemed like more than that.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Woah Peyton only attempted 6 passes in the past three years that were 41+ yards or more? It seemed like more than that.

In the air? no.

37 since 2002.

41+yard ATT
2002 6
2003 5
2004 1
2005 8
2006 9
2007 2
2008 2
2009 3
2010 1
Total  37

Those are regular season #'s.

[LuckyColt]

Woah Peyton only attempted 6 passes in the past three years that were 41+ yards or more? It seemed like more than that.

Yeah, I was looking for that statistic, I could have sworn I saw it somewhere. Thanks FJC. That could be interpreted many ways. You could blame it on scheme, arm strength, or, very likely, it could be indicative of Starvin' Marvin's absence.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Yeah, I was looking for that statistic, I could have sworn I saw it somewhere. Thanks FJC. That could be interpreted many ways. You could blame it on scheme, arm strength, or, very likely, it could be indicative of Starvin' Marvin's absence.

To me the deep ball was never a huge part of his game to begin with even with Marvin.

The stats of this nature aren't available from 98-01.

From 2002-2010 you are talking 144 games and 37 throws of that length. Barely 1 every 4 games.

2002-2005 he hit on 4/20

2006 he hit on 3/9

2007-2010 he was 1/8.

In my opinion I think it was schematic, or directly related to his injury, and quite possibly the lack of a true deep threat, and 88 was certainly the best deep threat Manning played with but he couldn't take the top off of the defense a more physical/bigger WR.

It's odd that in 2004 he only attempted 1, but then in 05 & 06 he jumped to 8 & 9.

I'd like to see the #'s from 98-01, but I haven't stumbled across that info, and wouldn't contribute the time to chart if I had access to those 64 games.

[LuckyColt]

It's odd that in 2004 he only attempted 1, but then in 05 & 06 he jumped to 8 & 9.

I'd like to see the #'s from 98-01, but I haven't stumbled across that info, and wouldn't contribute the time to chart if I had access to those 64 games.

I found that odd, too. And maybe it's just my rose coloured nostalgia glasses, but I have a fond time remembering the 18 to 88 deep ball. But when was the last time you remember The Sheriff slinging it down-field like this?

[FireJimCaldwell]

I found that odd, too. And maybe it's just my rose coloured nostalgia glasses, but I have a fond time remembering the 18 to 88 deep ball. But when was the last time you remember The Sheriff slinging it down-field like this?

That catch around 24 seconds is my favorite Harrison catch ever. Bouncing it off Punk Vrabel's grill was the cherry on top.

It's been awhile..

[LuckyColt]

That catch around 24 seconds is my favorite Harrison catch ever. Bouncing it off Punk Vrabel's grill was the cherry on top.

It's been awhile..

Yeah... I gotta quit watching those videos, many emotions wrapped up in that.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Yeah... I gotta quit watching those videos, many emotions wrapped up in that.

Know the feeling...

Nothing gold can stay!

[Kenny]

That post was definitely not a dig at Peyton. But he has got to earn back his title of best in the league. As far as regression, in 2010 he had his lowest quarterback rating since 2002. And he also looked physically weaker.

His 2010 qb rating could have(I say that because I am not sure of the exact formula for it) been dropped because of his 3-4 game slump in whichhe averaged like 3 ints a game.

[Superman]

Lots of Brees action lately, so I was wanting to compare him to other 'elite' NFL QBs. I think we can all pretty much agree that the elite 4 QBs in the NFL are Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. I include Brees in the elite category, but I do feel he is the lesser of the 4. I feel Brees has more going for him in terms of surrounding cast than any other of the elite QBs. Between coaching, weapons, OL, run game, indoors etc.

Alot of attention is paid to Brees stats. So I wanted to dive a little deeper into them. Starting with Brees and his backfield options, who are some of the best pass catching RBs in the league. (FB were not included)

Since 2008: (Manning missed 2011, Brady 2008)

Brees: 1692comp. 19553yds, 147TDs....RBs 467rec, 3495yds, 25TDs....

Rodgers: 1346comp. 17047yds, 131TDs....RBs 202rec, 1639yds, 6TDs.....

Brady: 1096comp. 13533yds, 103TDs....RBs 170rec, 1569yds, 2TDs.....

Manning 1214comp, 13202yds, 93TDs....RBs 204rec, 1596yds, 8TDs....

Brees completed 27% of his passes to a RB, 17% of his yards, 17% of his TDs....Rodgers 15%/9%/4%...Brady 15%/11%/1%...Manning 16%/12%/8%.....

I think this would severally inflate his comp% #'s which he has led the league in in the past 3 years.

I said in the other thread that it's interesting that his completions to backs are so high, but I don't necessarily agree that it has any bearing on how good a quarterback he is. As a matter of fact, if you cut his completions to backs in half, he still leads the league in completions, yards and touchdowns over the last three years.

Another thing, I might agree that Brees is 4th on that list. But that's the list; there's a drop-off after those four. The order we put those four in is kind of irrelevant to me. He's elite, no doubt about it. If he were a true free agent, as many teams as there were trying to meet with Manning would be trying to meet with him, and maybe more because he's younger and hasn't had four neck surgeries.

[Fx Stryker]

His 2010 qb rating could have(I say that because I am not sure of the exact formula for it) been dropped because of his 3-4 game slump in whichhe averaged like 3 ints a game.

Without the threes games Manning's QBR was 97.8. Those three games almost triples his INTs.

[Superman]

Without the threes games Manning's QBR was 97.8. Those three games almost triples his INTs.

He threw for a lot of yards and touchdowns in those three games (8 touchdowns, 1,046 yards). Taking out those games doesn't help his QB rating as much as you'd expect.

[Fx Stryker]

He threw for a lot of yards and touchdowns in those three games (8 touchdowns, 1,046 yards). Taking out those games doesn't help his QB rating as much as you'd expect.

His QBR was 77 for those three games. So it helps somewhat. I see what you are pointing at though.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Without the threes games Manning's QBR was 97.8. Those three games almost triples his INTs.

Considering he completed over 70% of the passes in those 3 games, I find it hard to put the majority of blame on him. If he completed 40% with that INT total, sure...

One vs. Dallas stands out when it showed the view from behind Manning. You see him pump. White goes one way the ball goes the other right into the LB. Six points Dallas. I'm sure he was pressing, and feeling like if he didn't do it, it wasn't going to get done and he was basically right.

[LuckyColt]

I think we can all agree that year was the beginning of the end. Everybody, for the most part, under performed.

[Superman]

I think we can all agree that year was the beginning of the end. Everybody, for the most part, under performed.

Manning didn't underperform; that's the point people are trying to make.

A lot has been made of the interceptions. But he threw one (1) more interception than he did in 2009, a season where he won MVP, we started 14-0 and went to the Super Bowl. It wasn't an "off year," as it's been called. In many respects, it was a better year statistically than 2009, especially taking The Stretch (Patriots, Chargers, Cowboys) out of the picture.

[Superman]

Considering he completed over 70% of the passes in those 3 games, I find it hard to put the majority of blame on him. If he completed 40% with that INT total, sure...

One vs. Dallas stands out when it showed the view from behind Manning. You see him pump. White goes one way the ball goes the other right into the LB. Six points Dallas. I'm sure he was pressing, and feeling like if he didn't do it, it wasn't going to get done and he was basically right.

Good points, all.

Another example is the interception in the Chargers game where Reggie got hit before the ball got there, it was picked off, and went for a touchdown. Completely not his fault, and at a critical juncture of the game.

If not for that three game stretch, we could have been 13-3 and had home field through the playoffs. That's remarkable for a team that suffered as many injuries as we did.

[Fx Stryker]

Considering he completed over 70% of the passes in those 3 games, I find it hard to put the majority of blame on him. If he completed 40% with that INT total, sure...

One vs. Dallas stands out when it showed the view from behind Manning. You see him pump. White goes one way the ball goes the other right into the LB. Six points Dallas. I'm sure he was pressing, and feeling like if he didn't do it, it wasn't going to get done and he was basically right.

And the no call on Wayne verse San Diego.

EDIT: Superman said that.

EDIT:

Good points, all

Another example is the interception in the Chargers game where Reggie got hit before the ball got there, it was picked off, and went for a touchdown. Completely not his fault, and at a critical juncture of the game.

If not for that three game stretch, we could have been 13-3 and had home field through the playoffs. That's remarkable for a team that suffered as many injuries as we did.

Not to mention we were one bad timeout away from the divisional round even with everything.

[LuckyColt]

Manning didn't underperform; that's the point people are trying to make.

But that's incredibly subjective. You can't blame it all on injuries, the Colts have always battled injuries, not just that season. And you can't just ignore that crappy stretch, it was part of the season. You can't pick and choose which games to remember when you look back on a season. That season was one of the most inconsistent seasons of the Manning era, at our best we had a four win steak, and that was right up at the end. Our playoffs pretty much started four weeks early. Passing yards are worth diddly-poo when you throw 10+ interceptions in 3 games, that's not elite at all. Yards don't win games, they just look pretty on a stat sheet. At the least he was inconsistent, which is highly uncharacteristic of Peyton.

[Gramz]

But that's incredibly subjective. You can't blame it all on injuries, the Colts have always battled injuries, not just that season. And you can't just ignore that crappy stretch, it was part of the season. You can't pick and choose which games to remember when you look back on a season. That season was one of the most inconsistent seasons of the Manning era, at our best we had a four win steak, and that was right up at the end.

Having a win streak "at the end" of the season, is normally a real good time to have a win streak...

[LuckyColt]

Having a win streak "at the end" of the season, is normally a real good time to have a win streak...

No doubt. I just think everyone was inconsistent from top to bottom, and inconsistency is one of the worse things you can have.The Jaguars nearly won the division that year.

[Superman]

And the no call on Wayne verse San Diego.

EDIT: Superman said that.

EDIT:

Not to mention we were one bad timeout away from the divisional round even with everything.

Terrible timeout, but a lot more than that cost us that game.

But that's incredibly subjective. You can't blame it all on injuries, the Colts have always battled injuries, not just that season. And you can't just ignore that crappy stretch, it was part of the season. You can't pick and choose which games to remember when you look back on a season. That season was one of the most inconsistent seasons of the Manning era, at our best we had a four win steak, and that was right up at the end. Our playoffs pretty much started four weeks early. Passing yards are worth diddly-poo when you throw 10+ interceptions in 3 games, that's not elite at all. Yards don't win games, they just look pretty on a stat sheet. At the least he was inconsistent, which is highly uncharacteristic of Peyton.

I'm not picking and choosing. I'm saying that, even with The Stretch, Manning's numbers were basically the same as they were during the previous season. If I'm picking and choosing, I'd point out that if you apply his averages from the rest of the season to The Stretch, you'd be looking at a season with 4,700 yards, 33 touchdowns and 8 interceptions. I'm not going there. I'm saying that, even with three terrible games (the worst three game stretch of Manning's career), it was still an MVP caliber season.

The whole "X doesn't win games" argument is specious, and makes me wonder whether you watched or remember those games. Against the Patriots, without the 396 passing yards from Manning, we're not even close in that game. Same for the Cowboys game. In the Chargers game, the offensive line got battered from start to finish, completely disrupting anything Manning might have been able to get going, plus the interception on the missed PI call. Let's not be so dismissive of his 1,000+ yards in those three games, because those yards were pretty much all this team had going for it at that point in the season.

Furthering the point, as FJC mentioned, when you watch those games, it's pretty evident that there was nothing wrong with Manning. He was pressing because the team was crumbling around him. I'm not blaming it all on injuries; the coaching was atrocious as well, especially on defense. And yes, he was inconsistent, compared to what we're used to from him. Perhaps your answer is that it was the beginning of the end. I choose to analyze what actually happened, rather than yielding to generalizations.

In making such an analysis, I can say that, of those 11 interceptions, only one looked like there was something up with Manning's arm, and that's the last pick against the Patriots. Throwing to Garcon, the ball seemed to die mid-flight. Could have been the wind, but it seemed really weird. If the throw had been better, that doesn't get picked off, and I'm pretty certain The Stretch doesn't happen. If we win starting with that game, we could have finished 13-3, tied with the Patriots but owning the tie-breaker, Manning's numbers would have earned him more MVP votes, we would have had a first round bye, and things might have been different.

[Fx Stryker]

You can't blame it all on injuries, the Colts have always battled injuries, not just that season.

2003: 7

2004: 5

2005: 15 and 2 PS

2006: 9 and 1 PS

2007: 10

2008: 8 and 1 PS

2009: 10

2010: 18

We have had injuries, but nothing like 2010.

Terrible timeout, but a lot more than that cost us that game.

True, but we had a chance still before that.

[Superman]

2003: 7

2004: 5

2005: 15 and 2 PS

2006: 9 and 1 PS

2007: 10

2008: 8 and 1 PS

2009: 10

2010: 18

We have had injuries, but nothing like 2010.

I don't know what the number was, but we had a record breaking number of games lost to injury in 2010.

[MAC]

But that's incredibly subjective. You can't blame it all on injuries, the Colts have always battled injuries, not just that season. And you can't just ignore that crappy stretch, it was part of the season. You can't pick and choose which games to remember when you look back on a season. That season was one of the most inconsistent seasons of the Manning era, at our best we had a four win steak, and that was right up at the end. Our playoffs pretty much started four weeks early. Passing yards are worth diddly-poo when you throw 10+ interceptions in 3 games, that's not elite at all. Yards don't win games, they just look pretty on a stat sheet. At the least he was inconsistent, which is highly uncharacteristic of Peyton.

Are you still talking about 2010? The injury situation was utterly outrageous - like nothing the Colts had dealt with previously in this era. It was NOT a typical season. Many of those not on injured reserve were battling problems. Manning's bad "stretch" had a lot to do with a)him forcing everything out of a near desperate need to score on every possession, because there were so many DBs out that the Colts couldn't stop anyone. and b)trying to integrate people like Blair White (responsible for multiple interceptions due to failing to do what Peyton expected) and Javarris James (who if you recall, couldn't carry Edges jock strap). And by the way those three games were ALL against good 3-4 defenses whom have historically given Peyton fits. Oh, and the offensive line was so >>>ed up that Peyton had a fraction of what would be considered normal time available to get rid of the ball before having to run for his life. He was hit more often and harder than in any other season. The conclusion I came to watching it was that it was miraculous that Peyton overcame it and led the team to the playoffs. But I wasn't upset or surprised by the playoff loss, because there were so many people missing from the prior years squad (when the Jets weren't even in the same league) that I considered them serious underdogs. Yet they nearly won it anyway.

I'm getting the impression that the one reading the stat sheets is you. In watching the games, I thought that Peyton was utterly brilliant, and could have EASILY won the MVP again.

[LuckyColt]

But it's not a generalization. The fact of the matter is the Colts have always relied on Manning, and he always delivered the W's. With him we had I think like 4 seasons where we started 6-0. That season we never could get hot until the end, and then we lost in the Wild Card, the first Wild Card loss since the early 2000's. Manning was obviously frustrated with himself. And passing yards aren't indicative of a quarterback's success, their frivolous.

His passing stats were inflated because he had the second most single season pass attempts ever.

Peyton threw the ball more than

100 times

than the 2009 season, but he still threw the same number of touchdowns, and threw one more interception. That's not good, considering the fact that Peyton is a human stat sheet. The whole team wasn't up to snuff, and that includes Peyton.

[Superman]

But it's not a generalization. The fact of the matter is the Colts have always relied on Manning, and he always delivered the W's. With him we had I think like 4 seasons where we started 6-0. That season we never could get hot until the end, and then we lost in the Wild Card, the first Wild Card loss since the early 2000's. Manning was obviously frustrated with himself. And passing yards aren't indicative of a quarterback's success, their frivolous.

His passing stats were inflated because he had the second most single season pass attempts ever.

Peyton threw the ball more than

100 times

than the 2009 season, but he still threw the same number of touchdowns, and threw one more interception. That's not good, considering the fact that Peyton is a human stat sheet. The whole team wasn't up to snuff, and that includes Peyton.

I'm not saying Manning had a great year. I'm certainly not saying the team had a great year. I'm just saying that Manning was forced into a tough situation because of the state of the team, and it showed when you look at The Stretch. Outside of those three games, he was even better than he was in 2009, when he won MVP and we went to the Super Bowl.

If you want a culprit for why we couldn't sustain a long win streak, like we normally did (I think we had at least a 5 game win streak every year from 2003 to 2009), turn to the defense, or the non-existent run game. It wasn't Manning's fault that we only won ten games. I don't even really think The Stretch was Manning's fault entirely.

Edit: One other thing: The fact that he only threw 17 interceptions on 679 attempts is actually an impressive stat. His interception rate in 2010 was lower than it was in 2009, and lower than his career interception rate.