Word on Colts Mike Jenkins offer

[deadman]

And as for Reggie, he is a superb example of being a Manning product. Which isn't to say he's not a quality WR. He is. But Reggie skill is based on route running, timing, and the ball being there, all of which require high caliber QB play. There isn't a single time in Reggie's entire career where after a play I've thought to myself "Boy Reggie Wayne is the only WR who coulda made that play". This isn't a knock on Reggie. But he doesn't create a play, he's part of the play. Now it is a give and take. It takes the QB to do it, and the WR to do it as well and that is where Reggie does excel. In doing what's asked of him, not dropping passes, and making the plays that are there.

[media=]

Just one of the many times he's done this. Not as good as some of the great Marvin catches but still does an amazing job bringing them in.

[CR91]

And as for Reggie, he is a superb example of being a Manning product. Which isn't to say he's not a quality WR. He is. But Reggie skill is based on route running, timing, and the ball being there, all of which require high caliber QB play. There isn't a single time in Reggie's entire career where after a play I've thought to myself "Boy Reggie Wayne is the only WR who coulda made that play". This isn't a knock on Reggie. But he doesn't create a play, he's part of the play. Now it is a give and take. It takes the QB to do it, and the WR to do it as well and that is where Reggie does excel. In doing what's asked of him, not dropping passes, and making the plays that are there.

you sir are nuts. i can name you a bunch of plays of reggie that had nothing to do with peyton.

the one hand grab vs the eagles

the catch in oakland where he one handed it with amushson all over him

two td great grabs he had vs the texans

you want me to keep going or are you getting the point

[FightLikeSin]

Leading the league in something for a short period of time doesn't mean a thing. It generally means that player has been given the opportunity and has excelled. Angerer lead the league in "tackles" for a short while, does that put him in the Willis/Lewis MLB discussion? I cite stats as much as the next guy, but Collie leading the league in anything WR related for 6weeks doesnt put him in the echelon of superb WRs which is what I was saying in reference to Fitz. Just because Nelson/Cruz outperformed him doesn't mean he isn't 10x the Wr those guys are, but yet they lead in WR categories.

And as for Reggie, he is a superb example of being a Manning product. Which isn't to say he's not a quality WR. He is. But Reggie skill is based on route running, timing, and the ball being there, all of which require high caliber QB play. There isn't a single time in Reggie's entire career where after a play I've thought to myself "Boy Reggie Wayne is the only WR who coulda made that play". This isn't a knock on Reggie. But he doesn't create a play, he's part of the play. Now it is a give and take. It takes the QB to do it, and the WR to do it as well and that is where Reggie does excel. In doing what's asked of him, not dropping passes, and making the plays that are there.

That's your business I suppose. I think your points are counter-intuitive. I'm not making Collie or Angerer out to be Fitzgerald or Urlacher, but if they produce at a high volume, then yes...they do need to be mentioned as a productive player. Sit back and read what you wrote. It goes something like this... " Just because a player is the best in the NFL at something for nearly half of the regular season, doesn't mean they are a good player or deserve credit". I'm paraphrasing of course. That doesn't strike any sort of dissonance with you?

I don't buy your "product of Manning" pitch. All WR's are "products" of their QB. When you have a season like last year where we went 3 and out on pretty much every drive or every other drive, it's hard to draw a fair comparison. As stated before, Reggie put up numbers last year with 3 AWFUL quarterbacks that were in range of his numbers with Manning. Makes it hard to bite on what you are saying.

[IndyTrav]

[media=]

Just one of the many times he's done this.

Yes. Indeed. A well thrown ball and an excellent catch. Exactly what Reggie does and what I eluded to him doing. Making a play that requires give and take. But I too can find 100s of videos of players tapping there feet. It's not limited to Reg. ESP considering he learned it from perhaps the greatest ever at it. But that's not a play "only Reggie can make"

[GrizzColt]

Every top 25 CB is the best CB on his own team (except for a few teams that have 2 great ones). Jenkins was the best on his team last year. The Cowboys had arguably the worst secondary in the NFL. He didn't take away each teams best receiver, he didn't lead the league in anything like interceptions or take-a-ways or tackles, he didn't make any highlight reels, he played under a well known defensive coordinator who supposedly knows his stuff, he IS HOWEVER, being replaced by a free agent and a number draft pick. That tells me all I need to know. Apparently, we are desperate to be going after him.

[Restored]

Yes. Indeed. A well thrown ball and an excellent catch. Exactly what Reggie does and what I eluded to him doing. Making a play that requires give and take. But I too can find 100s of videos of players tapping there feet. It's not limited to Reg. ESP considering he learned it from perhaps the greatest ever at it. But that's not a play "only Reggie can make"

Not exactly. The key for Reggie is that he has CONSISTENTLY produced catches like this year in and year out since about his 3rd year in the league. The good-average ones make good catches every once in and awhile and are inconsistent. Reggie is a great because year after year he continued to produce and do all the little things well. Even though his stats dropped a little bit this past year due to HORRIFIC QB play, he still almost managed a 1000 yards.

And as far as that catch in paticular, I see only Larry Fitzgerald as the only other player being able to make a catch like that.

[JoKeR]

When has Collie been a #2? Im not sure Avery has any more to prove than Collie. Statistically, he's right there with Collie outside of TDs (which can easily be attributed to #18), and his injury factor is again, right there with Collie... Saying Jenkins is the 3, is somewhat unfair, Carr is an outstanding CB, and Claboirne could be special...But I don't disagree with the over spending aspect. But when you have the availabilty of pass catchers that I feel we have, I don't think it would be unreasonable.

I don't think Jenkins is a stud by any means. But an upgrade none the less, at a position we sorely need, and perhaps would save a

draft pick in the next year or so....I also feel Collie has 'produced' but really only when he was on the field with other significant options, and possibly the GOAT at QB....I feel Collies production this past year, is a very strong indicator of what his future results will be....But Im also glad you mentioned those 3 WRs, because I too really like what we have. But, assuming healthy years (big if), Wayne/Avery/Collie/2TE are really going to hinder seeing any field time for Hilton/Brazil/Sambrano......

Assume with Luck we throw 550 times for a 60% Comp %, which I feel is realistic. (Newton 517-60%, Dalton 516-58%, Ryan 434-61%, Bradford 590-60%, PManning 575-56.7% rookie yrs).....Thats roughly 330rec to go around....Say 50 to our RBs, 80 to Wayne, 100 to our TEs, and 50 between Avery/Rookies....I feel these are all fairly conservative estimates.....That would leave roughly 50rec for Collie, which is right in line with his career avgs.....

Which is a long winded way of me saying I dont feel a 50rec WR is someone I would be upset to trade in hopes of landing possibly a #1 CB, or even #2....

We disagree on the availability of receivers then. My opinion is Avery and/or Hilton should be more proven before considering trading Collie. We both agree it's like over spending, which is the bottom line to me.

[HtownColt]

Yes. Indeed. A well thrown ball and an excellent catch. Exactly what Reggie does and what I eluded to him doing. Making a play that requires give and take. But I too can find 100s of videos of players tapping there feet. It's not limited to Reg. ESP considering he learned it from perhaps the greatest ever at it. But that's not a play "only Reggie can make"

What about that slant route on the 3yrd line with like 30sec left against the patriots in 2009 with asaunte samuel draped all over him.prime example of amazing hands...you can name amazing Reggie Wayne catches all day..your the type to say Marvin Harrison was a product of a QB as well because harrison made the same kind of catches Wayne does

[Superman]

What about that slant route on the 3yrd line with like 30sec left against the patriots in 2009 with asaunte samuel draped all over him.prime example of amazing hands...you can name amazing Reggie Wayne catches all day..your the type to say Marvin Harrison was a product of a QB as well because harrison made the same kind of catches Wayne does

That wasn't Asante Samuel. I think that was Darius Butler.

[HtownColt]

That wasn't Asante Samuel. I think that was Darius Butler.

My bad it was Jonathan Wilhite.I just seen dreads and said asaunte samuel

[Superman]

My bad it was Jonathan Wilhite.I just seen dreads and said asaunte samuel

Some Pats corner, right?

Your point still stands. Reggie is more than just another receiver. Not a top guy for all time, but there have been several receivers to play with Manning that didn't do what Reggie has done. Same thing goes for Collie, as a matter of fact. Collie isn't special like Reggie is, but his production separates him from a lot of other players to come through Indianapolis.

[HtownColt]

Some Pats corner, right?

Your point still stands. Reggie is more than just another receiver. Not a top guy for all time, but there have been several receivers to play with Manning that didn't do what Reggie has done. Same thing goes for Collie, as a matter of fact. Collie isn't special like Reggie is, but his production separates him from a lot of other players to come through Indianapolis.

Collie is doing almost the same thing Brandon Stokley(in the 2004 and 2005 seasons) did while he was with the colts but collie is going to be wayy more consistent than Stokley

[Superman]

Every top 25 CB is the best CB on his own team (except for a few teams that have 2 great ones). Jenkins was the best on his team last year.

Just pointing out that just because Jenkins was the best on his team doesn't mean that he's top 25 at his position. As you mention, the Cowboys secondary was ... in flux ... last year.

I don't think Jenkins is a bad player, I just don't think he's top 25.

[IndyTrav]

What about that slant route on the 3yrd line with like 30sec left against the patriots in 2009 with asaunte samuel draped all over him.prime example of amazing hands...you can name amazing Reggie Wayne catches all day..your the type to say Marvin Harrison was a product of a QB as well because harrison made the same kind of catches Wayne does

Sure, I could list amazing Reggie Wayne catches all day. But I could also list 20WR playing right now who could all do the same thing if the ball was there. Reggies a fantastic WR, one of the better ones in the last 20 years. But had Reggie played his career in Tenn, or Seattle, Im fairly certain his career would be nowhere near what it is today. Thus, he's part of a product of Peyton. He's a good WR everywhere, but playing with Peyton made him great. Im not really sure thats even up for debate.

Marvin is somewhat similar, although Marvin had things going for him Reggie has never had, namely speed, and an on the field awareness that cannot be quanitfied, and a nose for the endzone.

[IndyTrav]

Collie is doing almost the same thing Brandon Stokley(in the 2004 and 2005 seasons) did while he was with the colts but collie is going to be wayy more consistent than Stokley

I don't think Collie could touch Stokleys avg. His 04 year he had over 1k yards and 10TDs in only 68 catches.(career high by nearly 20rec btw).....Thats incredible.....

But Collies a better WR than Stokely was (is?). So he's got that going for him. But then again I dont think Stokely was very good.

[coltsfanmilyman]

Sure, I could list amazing Reggie Wayne catches all day. But I could also list 20WR playing right now who could all do the same thing if the ball was there. Reggies a fantastic WR, one of the better ones in the last 20 years. But had Reggie played his career in Tenn, or Seattle, Im fairly certain his career would be nowhere near what it is today. Thus, he's part of a product of Peyton. He's a good WR everywhere, but playing with Peyton made him great. Im not really sure thats even up for debate.

Marvin is somewhat similar, although Marvin had things going for him Reggie has never had, namely speed, and an on the field awareness that cannot be quanitfied, and a nose for the endzone.

First off for Wayne to put the kind of numbers up that he did last year with the QB's we had is an amazing feat on its own merit, Peyton made alot of people better but saying that Wayne wouldn't nearly have what he had without Peyton shows your bias toward 18. I love 18 as much as the next but if Peyton was so good, why isn't Roy Hall or the plethora of other receivers we had making the team still. Again I'll agree that 18 made people better but to try and diminish Wayne's career achievements is absurd. BTW Reggie has some of the best hands in the league, that's what he has been known for not the yards or tds, his consistency like another poster said.

Also those 20wr you say can make those receptions like Reggie has over the years CONSISTENTLY <--(there is that word again) you can't do, sorry. There are not 20wr with better hands then Reggie.

Lastly your statement about 88 having a nose for the endzone makes me wonder how well you watched his career. Marvin would catch and drop to the ground unless a defender was no where near him.

Wasn't this a thread about Jenkins?

[Superman]

Sure, I could list amazing Reggie Wayne catches all day. But I could also list 20WR playing right now who could all do the same thing if the ball was there. Reggies a fantastic WR, one of the better ones in the last 20 years. But had Reggie played his career in Tenn, or Seattle, Im fairly certain his career would be nowhere near what it is today. Thus, he's part of a product of Peyton. He's a good WR everywhere, but playing with Peyton made him great. Im not really sure thats even up for debate.

Marvin is somewhat similar, although Marvin had things going for him Reggie has never had, namely speed, and an on the field awareness that cannot be quanitfied, and a nose for the endzone.

Take the truly transcendent receivers out, and there's no receiver that isn't part a product of the quarterback throwing him the ball. Even the greatest statistical receiver of all time played with two top 25 quarterbacks, and his numbers wouldn't be what they are without them. I don't know what it is that you're saying.

And by the way, if you give Fitzgerald a great quarterback, his production goes up. Give Calvin Johnson good quarterback play, and his production goes up. So even the transcendent receivers benefit from playing with good quarterbacks, when they have the privilege to do so. Reggie is not on their level, but it's kind of silly to suggest that he wouldn't still be productive with an average quarterback.

[Superman]

I don't think Collie could touch Stokleys avg. His 04 year he had over 1k yards and 10TDs in only 68 catches.(career high by nearly 20rec btw).....Thats incredible.....

But Collies a better WR than Stokely was (is?). So he's got that going for him. But then again I dont think Stokely was very good.

Stokley was DEFINITELY a product of his environment. He was the third or fourth option in 2004, in a season where our passing game was simply out of this world. His 16 yards per catch were indicative of that, as was the fact that he was one of three receivers to top 10 touchdowns in a season (tying a record, I believe).

But Collie's catches and touchdowns in nine games in 2010 pretty much match Stokley's entire 2004, and he was the #2 option whenever he was on the field. Garcon had a really bad first half, Clark was hurt... it was Reggie, who was getting a lot of attention, and Collie. And he performed.