Training camp day one 7/26

[Nancy]

13 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

Probably depends on what you want.  Rule of thumb is normally the higher you are the more you can see but if you are lower you’ll have a better chance to interact with the players if they come over to the stands.  

Thank you!!  Go Colts!

[w87r]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

No question it could be perceived as a dig at JT, and it would be naive to ignore the connection. But it seems more general in nature. I could be wrong.

I don't think the first part was Taylor related. CBA talk.

 

 

I do think the last part was aimed at Taylor's agent(among others), more than direct shot towards Taylor.

 

As everyone else, I could be wrong.

 

[Superman]

1 minute ago, w87r said:

I don't think the first part was Taylor related. CBA talk.

 

 

I do think the last part was aimed at Taylor's agent(among others), more than direct shot towards Taylor.

 

As everyone else, I could be wrong.

 

That's a fair point, the agent part could have been more specific.

[Nickster]

7 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

In this case, not really. But that's because Ballard's comments made me think the Colts aren't ready to make an offer to JT until they see him back on the field, in Steichen's offense. I also don't think Ballard would have said 'we don't expect anyone else to be on PUP' 30 minutes before Taylor goes on PUP, if they were thinking about this strategy.

 

Irsay's comments don't seem relevant. I don't know what's happened behind closed doors, but I don't see why Taylor or his agent would be discussing CBA stuff during contract negotiations. If the CBA was amended to allow RBs to enter the league sooner, or to allow RBs to get to FA faster, how does that affect JT in 2023? Anything CBA related seems totally irrelevant.

 

No question it could be perceived as a dig at JT, and it would be naive to ignore the connection. But it seems more general in nature. I could be wrong.

 

Yes to this specific case with what has gone down it really looks like there has been some unexpected moves and to me it seems likely that this is a somewhat nasty disagreement.  JT seems to have blindsided and embarrassed the FO, and they seem to have thumbed his eye back to me.  It would be fairly coincidental for JIs comments not to be pointed IMO.  I don't gamble much, but if I had to bet, I'd bet this is likely how it went down. 

3 minutes ago, w87r said:

I don't think the first part was Taylor related. CBA talk.

 

 

I do think the last part was aimed at Taylor's agent(among others), more than direct shot towards Taylor.

 

As everyone else, I could be wrong.

 

 

I do see your point here.  But JT and all other players have the power to control their agents.

[Superman]

6 minutes ago, Nickster said:

JT seems to have blindsided and embarrassed the FO, and they seem to have thumbed his eye back to me.  It would be fairly coincidental for JIs comments not to be pointed IMO.  I don't gamble much, but if I had to bet, I'd bet this is likely how it went down. 

 

Another fair point. And it seems like JT's agent took it personally.

[2006Coltsbestever]

16 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Yes to this specific case with what has gone down it really looks like there has been some unexpected moves and to me it seems likely that this is a somewhat nasty disagreement.  JT seems to have blindsided and embarrassed the FO, and they seem to have thumbed his eye back to me.  It would be fairly coincidental for JIs comments not to be pointed IMO.  I don't gamble much, but if I had to bet, I'd bet this is likely how it went down. 

 

I do see your point here.  But JT and all other players have the power to control their agents.

We should have never drafted him with a Round 2 pick of all things since this has been a passing league for the last decade, right? Blame our FO for drafting him, JT didn't ask to get drafted by us. We should have took a WR instead since RB's aren't important, that is on our FO.

 

Just speaking the truth.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We should have never drafted him with a Round 2 pick of all things since this has been a passing league for the last decade, right? Blame our FO for drafting him, JT didn't ask to get drafted by us. We should have took a WR instead since RB's aren't important, that is on our FO.

 

Just speaking the truth.

Umm we did get  a WR. Jt and Pittman were drafted within a few spots of each other. Pittman first.

[Nickster]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We should have never drafted him with a Round 2 pick of all things since this has been a passing league for the last decade, right? Blame our FO for drafting him, JT didn't ask to get drafted by us. We should have took a WR instead since RB's aren't important, that is on our FO.

 

Just speaking the truth.

Huh?  are you trying to cause trouble?  

 

I wouldn't sign him OR ANY NFL RUNNING BACK to a big money contract.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Umm we did get  a WR. Jt and Pittman were drafted within a few spots of each other. Pittman first.

I know, I am not a dumb dumb, my point is we should've drafted 2 WR's, one right after another.

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We should have never drafted him with a Round 2 pick of all things since this has been a passing league for the last decade, right? Blame our FO for drafting him, JT didn't ask to get drafted by us. We should have took a WR instead since RB's aren't important, that is on our FO.

 

Just speaking the truth.

 

Seems like you're being melodramatic to make a point.

 

Here's the harsh, heartless way that a team would handle RBs if they wanted to be fully cutthroat about it. Draft a RB in the top 75 every two years, run them into the ground, and let them walk when they hit free agency. Every once in a while, if you hit on a star level player, trade him after Year 3. The recent history of RBs on second contracts is that the team doesn't get a return for their money, and the player doesn't last to the end of the contract. So don't play in that sandbox at all. Draft young backs, churn and burn, and don't spend a bunch of cap space trying to keep them.

 

Now, I like JT. I'd be okay with the Colts paying a premium to keep him for the next two or three years, because I think he's that good. But having a player like him at RB is a luxury, at best, and probably doesn't raise the ceiling of your team's offense. And if I can get 75-80% of JT's production for 15-20% of the cost, strategically, it makes more sense to replace him than it does to pay him like a star RB on a second contract.

[Nickster]

6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We should have never drafted him with a Round 2 pick of all things since this has been a passing league for the last decade, right? Blame our FO for drafting him, JT didn't ask to get drafted by us. We should have took a WR instead since RB's aren't important, that is on our FO.

 

Just speaking the truth.

 

But to your point I'd much rather be paying Trayvon Diggs, who was drafted shortly after JT, than any RB in any recent draft, JT included. Or winfield too.   I wouldn't have drafted a RB in R2.  

 

That being said it wouldn't be bad to sign JT to a market reasonable deal that had an out after next year. 

 

 

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I know, I am not a dumb dumb, my point is we should've drafted 2 WR's, one right after another.

 

If we had, even if they both hit, we'd probably still be choosing between which one to keep, and which one to let walk. 

[Nickster]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

Seems like you're being melodramatic to make a point.

 

Here's the harsh, heartless way that a team would handle RBs if they wanted to be fully cutthroat about it. Draft a RB in the top 75 every two years, run them into the ground, and let them walk when they hit free agency. Every once in a while, if you hit on a star level player, trade him after Year 3. The recent history of RBs on second contracts is that the team doesn't get a return for their money, and the player doesn't last to the end of the contract. So don't play in that sandbox at all. Draft young backs, churn and burn, and don't spend a bunch of cap space trying to keep them.

 

Now, I like JT. I'd be okay with the Colts paying a premium to keep him for the next two or three years, because I think he's that good. But having a player like him at RB is a luxury, at best, and probably doesn't raise the ceiling of your team's offense. And if I can get 75-80% of JT's production for 15-20% of the cost, strategically, it makes more sense to replace him than it does to pay him like a star RB on a second contract.

Yup. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

If we had, even if they both hit, we'd probably still be choosing between which one to keep, and which one to let walk. 

Not sure because we have plenty under the Cap and a QB under a rookie salary. I know I am being dramatic but around here you have to be sometimes to get your point across.

[RollerColt]

I feel the dual threat QB has really hampered the running back position as well. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, Nickster said:

 

we get it. You have an emotional attachment to Colts players. 

Somewhat to some players but when we have great players, I just feel like they should be re-signed to decent deals. JT has been a great player for this franchise and he is young.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

I feel the dual threat QB has really hampered the running back position as well. 

Good point, this may be true.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

18 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I know, I am not a dumb dumb, my point is we should've drafted 2 WR's, one right after another.

Depends on who was still on the board. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

But to your point I'd much rather be paying Trayvon Diggs, who was drafted shortly after JT, than any RB in any recent draft, JT included. Or winfield too.   I wouldn't have drafted a RB in R2.  

 

That being said it wouldn't be bad to sign JT to a market reasonable deal that had an out after next year. 

 

 

I would have loved to have Diggs. As of now the way things are (not being dramatic), he would have been the better pick being that he is a CB.

Just now, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Depends on who was still on the board. 

That's cool, Nick brought up Diggs. I was just trying to get a point across being more sarcastic than anything.

[Nickster]

28 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Somewhat to some players but when we have great players, I just feel like they should be re-signed to decent deals. JT has been a great player for this franchise and he is young.

 

Well I don't personally have emotional attachments to NFL players since I started being the same age as them and now I'm way older than everybody except TB and he retired.  I wasn't too much older than him .

 

I'm not putting down people with emo attachment to these guys I just don't have it. At all.  I'd cut my mother if I thought it helped me win ball games. 

 

All I care about for my fandom is having a team that can win and compete.  That's it. Sum total.  I don't care about guys rough lives or their personal demons they've overcome or how much they donate, etc.   ALL NFL teams have good guys, bad guys, generous guys, etc. etc. etc.  It matters not in the least when I'm discussing what my armchair analyst self discuss on this website. 

 

So desert has nothing in the least to do with it when I am thinking about what helps our team win.  I agree with the Theo Epstein philosophy of not paying for past performance.

 

You do. thats cool.  Do you.  I'll do me. 

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Well I don't personally have emotional attachments to NFL players since I started being the same age as them and now I'm way older than everybody except TB and he retired.  I wasn't too much older than him .

 

I'm not putting down people with emo attachment to these guys I just don't have it. At all.  I'd cut my mother if I thought it helped me win ball games. 

 

All I care about for my fandom is having a team that can win and compete.  That's it. Sum total.  I don't care about guys rough lives or their personal demons they've overcome or how much they donate, etc.   ALL NFL teams have good guys, bad guys, generous guys, etc. etc. etc.  It matters not in the least when I'm discussing what my armchair analyst self discuss on this website. 

 

So desert has nothing in the least to do with it when I am thinking about what helps our team win.  I agree with the Theo Epstein philosophy of not paying for past performance.

 

You do. thats cool.  Do you.  I'll do me. 

 

 

It is not so much an emotional attachment, at 52 years old all I want is what is best for the team and If I do see a special talent that can help us win, than I am for re-signing him. Of course when you are a teenager or in your 20's you get emotional over players because they are old enough to be your big brother or even your dad as role models. Once you get older it isn't the same, I do agree. Players like Peyton and Marvin are from my generation so I had an emotional attachment to them. 

[Nickster]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It is not so much an emotional attachment, at 52 years old all I want is what is best for the team and If I do see a special talent that can help us win, than I am for re-signing him. Of course when you are a teenager or in your 20's you get emotional over players because they are old enough to be your big brother or even your dad as role models. Once you get older it isn't the same, I do agree. Players like Peyton and Marvin are from my generation so I had an emotional attachment to them. 

 

I had emotional attachments to Ryne Sandberg, Rick Sutcliffe, Richard Dent, and Walter Payton especially when I was a kid. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

 

I had emotional attachments to Ryne Sandberg, Rick Sutcliffe, Richard Dent, and Walter Payton especially when I was a kid. 

Me too regarding Sandberg but we are both Cubs fans. As much as I was a fan of Kris Bryant, I looked at him like a little brother  . He is just so much younger. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Seems like you're being melodramatic to make a point.

 

Here's the harsh, heartless way that a team would handle RBs if they wanted to be fully cutthroat about it. Draft a RB in the top 75 every two years, run them into the ground, and let them walk when they hit free agency. Every once in a while, if you hit on a star level player, trade him after Year 3. The recent history of RBs on second contracts is that the team doesn't get a return for their money, and the player doesn't last to the end of the contract. So don't play in that sandbox at all. Draft young backs, churn and burn, and don't spend a bunch of cap space trying to keep them.

 

Now, I like JT. I'd be okay with the Colts paying a premium to keep him for the next two or three years, because I think he's that good. But having a player like him at RB is a luxury, at best, and probably doesn't raise the ceiling of your team's offense. And if I can get 75-80% of JT's production for 15-20% of the cost, strategically, it makes more sense to replace him than it does to pay him like a star RB on a second contract.

Am I reading this right?

 

You think having a RB like Jonathan Taylor doesn’t raise the ceiling of your teams offense?    Really?

 

You think he didn’t in 2020?    Or 21?

 

Im taking money out of the equation.   Strictly on talent.   
 

Id be fine tagging JT for two years if need be and getting the best six years of his career.   The Colts can move on in 26. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Am I reading this right?

 

You think having a RB line Jonathan Taylor doesn’t raise the ceiling if your teams offense?    Really?

 

You think he didn’t in 2020?    Or 21?

 

Im taking money out of the equation.   Strictly on talent.   
 

Id be fine tagging JT for two years if need be and getting the best six years of his career.   The Colts can move on in 26. 

That is why I have been dramatic. You just summed up my thinking, JT is a great RB.

[MacDee1975]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We should have never drafted him with a Round 2 pick of all things since this has been a passing league for the last decade, right? Blame our FO for drafting him, JT didn't ask to get drafted by us. We should have took a WR instead since RB's aren't important, that is on our FO.

 

Just speaking the truth.

 

What "truth" are you speaking?  That's your opinion and nothing more.

[ADnum1]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Am I reading this right?

 

You think having a RB line Jonathan Taylor doesn’t raise the ceiling if your teams offense?    Really?

 

You think he didn’t in 2020?    Or 21?

 

Im taking money out of the equation.   Strictly on talent.   
 

Id be fine tagging JT for two years if need be and getting the best six years of his career.   The Colts can move on in 26. 

Theres no guarantee JT would play under the tag for 1 year let alone 2.

[ProblChld32]

16 hours ago, Archer said:

I’ve never really liked Rodgers on the outside - too short of arms.  I had Rodgers as a nickel guy…

 

He’s played well on the outside when the opportunity arose. Height is not the end all be all. Denzel Ward who is considered a top 10 Corner in this league is 5’11 Rodgers is 5’10. Kenny Moore was slated to start at Nickel no way Rodgers wins that role over Kenny. Now I will say that I do think that Colts had all the intentions of letting Moore play out his contract and letting him hit FA at seasons end and sliding Rodgers into the Slot role the following season. But with the recent suspension idk how that will all pan out come the offseason.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, MacDee1975 said:

 

What "truth" are you speaking?  That's your opinion and nothing more.

I am going by what almost everyone is saying in here, it is a passing league so what was the point of taking JT in Round 2? Many in here are against giving him a deal. I thought it was a fantastic pick so it isn't me. 

2 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

Theres no guarantee JT would play under the tag for 1 year let alone 2.

That is true.

[NewColtsFan]

11 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

Theres no guarantee JT would play under the tag for 1 year let alone 2.

He doesn’t have a choice.   He’ll play.   A RB not playing because of the tag has only happened once.  Leveon Bell, and that played out badly.   Taylor won’t do that. 

[ADnum1]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

He doesn’t have a choice.   He’ll play.   A RB not playing because of the tag has only happened once.  Leveon Bell, and that played out badly.   Taylor won’t do that. 

He does have a choice.  Other running backs have sat out the season except they come back for the last 6 games.

 

6 games is all he needs to become a UFA the following season.

 

Leveon Bell is an outlier.

 

Barkley wasn't going to play either under the tag.

[sb41champs]

With dangerous heat indexes and poor air quality forecast for Friday - I hope that everyone attending that day will do their due diligence and start hydrating NOW.

 

As a Floridian - I learned a lot about how to prepare for the heat.

 

HERE ARE A FEW TIPS:

 

Prepare ahead of time by hydrating hydrating hydrating.

 

NO CAFFEINE!!  Caffeine magnifies the effects of the sun by 10.

 

Eat light.

 

Wear a hat - AND - sunglasses.

 

Sunscreen to start the day and freshen it a couple of times during the day.

[w87r]

 

Figure this doesn't need its own thread.

 

[NewColtsFan]

38 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

He does have a choice.  Other running backs have sat out the season except they come back for the last 6 games.

 

6 games is all he needs to become a UFA the following season.

 

Leveon Bell is an outlier.

 

Barkley wasn't going to play either under the tag.

Everyone says they won’t right up until decision time, and then they typically play.   They’re bluffing.   
 

Do I know for certain Taylor will play?   No.  But he’s a good kid, a smart kid, a character kid.   So I believe he’ll play.  

[NewColtsFan]

15 minutes ago, w87r said:

 

Figure this doesn't need its own thread.

 

Think of all the big sexy names of corners posters have been throwing around for weeks if not months.   Now, when push comes to shove, we sign someone who no one has ever heard of.  
 

Maybe the Colts turn a nobody into a somebody?   Wouldn’t be the first time…

[Solid84]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Am I reading this right?

 

You think having a RB like Jonathan Taylor doesn’t raise the ceiling of your teams offense?    Really?

 

You think he didn’t in 2020?    Or 21?

 

Im taking money out of the equation.   Strictly on talent.   
 

Id be fine tagging JT for two years if need be and getting the best six years of his career.   The Colts can move on in 26. 

As an example I did a post in the “Players report to camp 7/25 and Ballard presser” thread comparing Miles Sanders ‘22 to JT’s “MVP” ‘21 season:

 

Quote

So, this is an example of why I feel 2nd tier is good enough. Here's Miles Sanders' '22 season vs. JT's '21 "MVP" season:

 

Miles Sanders '22:
1269 yards
259 carries
4.89 ypc
11 TDs 
0.0425 TDpc 

 

Jonathan Taylor '21 "MVP" season:
1811 yards
332 carries
5.45 ypc
18 TDs
0.0542TDpc 

 

No doubt JT is better, but if we adjust Sanders' carries to be equal to JT's we get this:

Sanders adjusted stats (332 carries):
332 carries
1623 yards
4.89 ypc
14.1 TDs
0.0425 TDpc

 

Miles Sanders just signed a contract worth $25,400,000 over 4 year with the Carolina Panthers, including a $5,900,000 signing bonus, $13,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $6,350,000.

 

JT likely wants more than the tag so at least $11m+/year possibly more. Do we want to pay double for 188 more yards and 4 more TDs? I mean, we could have 2 Sanders quality RBs for that money.

 

Again, not disputing JT is better. I'm saying JT isn't worth the money vs. tier 2.

TL;DR - If you normalize for carries JT gives us 188 more yards and 4 more TDs over a season for twice the pay. That’s why I feel top tier RBs just aren’t worth it. 

[w87r]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

Think of all the big sexy names of corners posters have been throwing around for weeks if not months.   Now, when push comes to shove, we sign someone who no one has ever heard of.  
 

Maybe the Colts turn a nobody into a somebody?   Wouldn’t be the first time…

I'm sure this is a minimum deal.

 

Probably just camp body until Brents is ready.

 

 

At least he has a little bit of experience. 

 

5'10, so not typical Ballard CB.

[Superman]

14 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Am I reading this right?

 

You think having a RB line Jonathan Taylor doesn’t raise the ceiling if your teams offense?    Really?

 

You think he didn’t in 2020?    Or 21?

 

Im taking money out of the equation.   Strictly on talent.   
 

Id be fine tagging JT for two years if need be and getting the best six years of his career.   The Colts can move on in 26. 

 

Sure, a RB like Taylor can take your offense from below average to average. That's not really the kind of change I'm talking about, though.

 

Taylor was pretty good in 2020, and he was great in 2021. Our offense was average in both seasons. In 2020, 9th in points scored (451), 10th in yards, 9th in yards/play, 11th in rushing yards, 15th in yards/rush. In 2021 -- the season in which Taylor really went off -- we were 9th in points scored (451, again), 16th in yards, 16th in yards/play, 2nd in rushing yards, 1st in yards/rush. So with Taylor being the best/most productive back in the league in 2021, and being critically important to our team, the offense was actually worse overall. 

 

The truth is that you need good QB play to have a good offense. Once you have good QB, sure, you can get a boost from having a really good RB, but that boost is a luxury, not a necessity. And it's probably not worth the premium cost, compared with replacement level players.

 

Like I said, if a team is goin to be hardline about it, you can use replacement+ level backs to get 75-80% of the production of a star level back. And that's probably good enough to have a good offense, if you have good QB play. And if you don't have good QB play, it doesn't really matter how good your RB is, and it's probably a misuse of resources to pay premium money for the position.

[2006Coltsbestever]

38 minutes ago, sb41champs said:

With dangerous heat indexes and poor air quality forecast for Friday - I hope that everyone attending that day will do their due diligence and start hydrating NOW.

 

As a Floridian - I learned a lot about how to prepare for the heat.

 

HERE ARE A FEW TIPS:

 

Prepare ahead of time by hydrating hydrating hydrating.

 

NO CAFFEINE!!  Caffeine magnifies the effects of the sun by 10.

 

Eat light.

 

Wear a hat - AND - sunglasses.

 

Sunscreen to start the day and freshen it a couple of times during the day.

It is 94 here with a heat index of 100, it is brutal outside here. That sun is something else.

[w87r]

Joe Burrow went down in camp today. Hope it's nothing serious.