What's The Real Arguement Against Pey-Luck?

[FireJimCaldwell]

28 million dollars is the single largest payout to a NFL player ever.

This whole notion that because your confident that Peyton will be a okay, and under center for the Colts next fall changes absolutely nothing.

It might happen, it might not, but your rant against basically everyone is ...epic.

Keep up the good work.

Not quite...

Freeney's been paid more in a single year.(30.750 in 2007)

http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/player/top-25/2007

So has Manning 35 and change

http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/player/top-25/2004

Since the 28 million won't be happening, Manning won't be eclipsing his own record of 35million with the 35.4 he would be paid if a Colt this year(28 OB & 7.4 base salary).

[Fx Stryker]

Yeah it is a first because it would be a very stupid thing to do. Hence why no one else has ever done it.

Just because no one has done something before does not make it a good idea. If we are talking about a 3rd or 4th round QB then I could see why it makes sense but to spend the #1 overall pick on a quarterback and have him collect $20M+ for 4 years is a terrible idea. If Luck sat until his contract expired, there is no guarantee he is coming back to the Colts. If he took another offer elsewhere the Colts would look like the biggest fools in the world.

Franchise him.

[The Fish]

Not quite...

Freeney's been paid more in a single year.(30.750 in 2007)

http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/player/top-25/2007

So has Manning 35 and change

http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/player/top-25/2004

Since the 28 million won't be happening, Manning won't be eclipsing his own record of 35million with the 35.4 he would be paid if a Colt this year(28 OB & 7.4 base salary).

I didn't realize that. 30 mill for Freeney..that's a wow number

[FireJimCaldwell]

I didn't realize that. 30 mill for Freeney..that's a wow number

Yeah it's up there...

[JCPatriot]

Here is an idea...cut Peyton an in Aug bring him in for full tests if he passes then evaluate how Luck did over the summer and go from there. If Peyton is so determined to play and only for the Colts he will wait...

What? Where do you get the idea that Peyton is determined to play only for the Colts???

[UndecidedFrog]

What? Where do you get the idea that Peyton is determined to play only for the Colts???

Some people cannot readily think that PM would consider playing elsewhere. They understand PM to be literal when he said that he wanted to retire as a Colt. They do not interpret that as a PR statement.

[subvet]

Manning will sign a cheap incentive-laden deal..

He banked $26 mil off Indy last year....He got paid..

Luck can only be paid so much/He wont break 'Bank Irsay'

No matter what we do we have plenty of holes to fill....and we still have the rest of the draft

If you believe the QB is the most important offensive position..

why not give our new coaches a secure foundation.

Why not make us the strongest 1-2 QB team in the league...?

Agree with it all, I'd add Manning will retire in no more than 3 years, probably less.

[eli4625]

What? Where do you get the idea that Peyton is determined to play only for the Colts???

Well...according to some here it was Peyton himself who said he wanted to finish his career as a Colt.

[braveheartcolt]

Well...according to some here it was Peyton himself who said he wanted to finish his career as a Colt.

But really, what else can he say? Only PM knows what he wants, and he's not telling us, that is for sure!

[JCPatriot]

Well...according to some here it was Peyton himself who said he wanted to finish his career as a Colt.

There is a big difference between...

"I would like to finish my career as a Colt."

...and...

"I am determined to play and only play for the Colts."

I believe Manning when he says that he would prefer to finish his career as a Colt. That doesn't mean that if the Colts release him in early March that he is going to sit around until August waiting for them to change their minds, though. If the Colts cut him and don't immediately start the process of resigning him, he is going to start looking for another team and will most likely be signed well before August (if he is healthy enough to give a reasonably comfortable feeling that he will be capable of playing). He may prefer to stay with the Colts, but he is not going to jeapordize his career to do so. There are limits. Now, this is all just my opinion and I don't presume to know that is going on in Manning's head, but I think this is at least a reasonable assessment.

[GoColts8818]

This has been a topic of discussion in the past. To the best of my understanding, Manning never agreed to take LESS MONEY. He only agreed to let it be spread out differently, freeing up cap room to sign other players. To go from that to an assertion that he will behave a certain way in this negotiation is a mighty big leap.

exactly under the old CBA you couldn't take money away you could just move it around to free up cap space as pointed out many times by our pats fans friends.

[GoColts8818]

Some people cannot readily think that PM would consider playing elsewhere. They understand PM to be literal when he said that he wanted to retire as a Colt. They do not interpret that as a PR statement.

Yep which is why I think irsay got mad and called Peyton a politician. I also think that's why he fired back with his own pr move that pretty much said okay Peyton put your money where your mouth is. I find it kinda funny people get mad at irsay for using a pr move against Peyton but had no issue with Peyton using one against irsay.

[Blue Horseshoe]

Real argument against Pey-Luck?

The team has more pressing needs right now. Why waste the #1 on a backup quarterback when you can use it to build a complete team. Then when Manning actually does retire that complete team could carry a young quarterback.

Trust me, there will be another "greatest prospect ever" available at that time.

[WSO]

Real argument against Pey-Luck?

The team has more pressing needs right now. Why waste the #1 on a backup quarterback when you can use it to build a complete team. Then when Manning actually does retire that complete team could carry a young quarterback.

Trust me, there will be another "greatest prospect ever" available at that time.

So the Colts don't have a need at quarterback?

[runstuffer]

90% of teams are interested in Manning. They don't care about his health. A 75% Manning is better than anyone not named Brady, Brees or Rodgers. You don't just let Manning go and get nothing in return. That would be STUPID! Sign or rework Mannings contract, then we can get crazy out this world offers for him before the draft! We have the #1 pick in the draft because the best qb in the league sat out last year. If no teams were showing interest in Manning then letting him go would not hurt us, but everyone and their brother wants Manning. Manning could bring us quality top notch players and draft picks. You sign keep/trade Manning, you don't release him for nothing. That just hurts the colts in the long run while helping a rival in the short term. KEEP MANNING DRAFT LUCK

[UndecidedFrog]

Yep which is why I think irsay got mad and called Peyton a politician. I also think that's why he fired back with his own pr move that pretty much said okay Peyton put your money where your mouth is. I find it kinda funny people get mad at irsay for using a pr move against Peyton but had no issue with Peyton using one against irsay.

Not so much funny , but funny strange.

I think you just defined a symptom of hero-worship.

[UndecidedFrog]

90% of teams are interested in Manning. They don't care about his health.

I doubt very much that any of the 90% of teams that may be interested in Manning will remain interested if Manning does not have the arm strength to throw the ball at the NFL level.

[braveheartcolt]

Don't think GB, NE, NO and NYG (at least) would be interested. Which is below your 90% threshold. Even if he's super healthy......

[WSO]

Franchise him.

You know what your argument sounds like . . . lets do 'x' and not consider the repercussions. It all started out with Luck sitting the bench. Then Luck sitting the bench the entire length of his contract. Then Luck sitting the bench his entire contract and then signing a new deal after his first expires. Now its Luck sits the bench for his entire contract, gets the franchise tag, and then after that signs a new contract.

No really, please keep going. . .this is getting really amusing. This is actually hilarious.

[Fx Stryker]

You know what your argument sounds like . . . lets do 'x' and not consider the repercussions. It all started out with Luck sitting the bench. Then Luck sitting the bench the entire length of his contract. Then Luck sitting the bench his entire contract and then signing a new deal after his first expires. Now its Luck sits the bench for his entire contract, gets the franchise tag, and then after that signs a new contract.

No really, please keep going. . .this is getting really amusing. This is actually hilarious.

I mean football is a business right? Every company has a successor after the lead man is gone. Well here is that opportunity for the Colts. The kid has no problem being behind Peyton. He said it himself. So he waits for his turn to take place. When that time comes, and he is unhappy you franchise him which he can't do anything about. Thus securing the future of your business. Remember this is a business, and the feelings of one individual are not greater than those of the franchise.

[Portage Coltfans]

Its been talked about before but lets set it all out..

Ive heard how Luck sitting 3 years behind Peyton Manning will ^fool^ his growth as a player..

I've heard how Manning will resent the Colts draft his successor.

But Luck's dad was in the NFL..he knows rookie QB s history..and Andrew does not sound like an egomaniac who would demand to play immediately....ahead of an NFL star

.. Manning knows he wont play forever and its actually a compliment to him to ask him to groom his successor....especailly a kid he already knows and a friend of the family. Its perfect for him.

Money isnt the issue. Luck can only be paid so much and Manning will renegotiate his contract..

Manning has structured his deal before to allow his teammates to be paid.

History shows its no problem for him.

Assuming these statements to be true.....

Why not have them both? We would have the top QB tandem in all of football.

We would have depth at the most important offensive position...

We would be taking ther best player available and would still have the No. 34 pick (approximately the final pick in the first round where we drafted aftre 2009)

WE would have the smooth transition to the future without going through another 2-14 or even 6-10

(and we would finally win an exhibition game)

There's got to be something more here.

I understand those who wants Manning and not Luck.

I understand the ones who want Luck and not Manning.

I DONT UNDERSTAND those who wouldnt want both.

What would your confidence level in the Colts chances be this fall with both Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck under contract?.

What would media attention for our team be like?

What do you think their record would be.?

Why not have both?

i would like to trade down and get some new talent at positions other than QB, I do believe Luck has potential to be good in the NFL. However, I don't believe Manning is finished. Both of these are opinions, I just believe Manning has more years left. Both aren't wrong choices. Simply, I'm not sure how having luck/manning would even help the team get any better, there are too many holes to fill talent wise.

[WSO]

I mean football is a business right? Every company has a successor after the lead man is gone. Well here is that opportunity for the Colts. The kid has no problem being behind Peyton. He said it himself. So he waits for his turn to take place. When that time comes, and he is unhappy you franchise him which he can't do anything about. Thus securing the future of your business. Remember this is a business, and the feelings of one individual are not greater than those of the franchise.

Oh my. . .the irony and this is why Manning likely won't be back and Luck will be starting. I was just pointing out the hilarity of keeping a QB under contract that long for that much money. No one has and will ever do it. It's cap suicide and would put a lot of restraint on a team.

[Fx Stryker]

Oh my. . .the irony and this is why Manning likely won't be back and Luck will be starting. I was just pointing out the hilarity of keeping a QB under contract that long for that much money. No one has and will ever do it. It's cap suicide and would put a lot of restraint on a team.

You do know Peyton's last contract was bigger? So it has been done.

[oldunclemark]

i would like to trade down and get some new talent at positions other than QB, I do believe Luck has potential to be good in the NFL. However, I don't believe Manning is finished. Both of these are opinions, I just believe Manning has more years left. Both aren't wrong choices. Simply, I'm not sure how having luck/manning would even help the team get any better, there are too many holes to fill talent wise.

I believe Luck gets $5 mil as a top rookie..

..and if Manning structures his contract to be back loaded (which he has done before) and takes $5 mil for 2012 and the rest later...

..we're paying a lot less for QBs than we did last season when we paid 4 guys a total of over $30 million...

I dont want to go with an injured guy and no solid backup...

,.and I dont want to start a rookie..QB in the NFL..Its a blueprint for losing that first year

[UndecidedFrog]

I believe Luck gets $5 mil as a top rookie..

..and if Manning structures his contract to be back loaded (which he has done before) and takes $5 mil for 2012 and the rest later...

..we're paying a lot less for QBs than we did last season when we paid 4 guys a total of over $30 million...

I dont want to go with an injured guy and no solid backup...

,.and I dont want to start a rookie..QB in the NFL..Its a blueprint for losing that first year

Mark, you're mixing up real dollars and cap dollars.

Real dollars:

Last year the Colts paid over $30MM to 4 QBs, of which $26.4MM went to PM and $4MM went to Collins.

This year, the Colts are scheduled under the current PM contract to pay PM $35.4MM ($28 option bonus + $7.4MM salary).

If we assume Luck gets Cam Newton's contract +5%, this will mean that the Colts will pay Luck this upcoming season $15.6MM (bonus + salary)

Cap dollars:

Last year the Colts got hit with $16 from PM; $2.75 from Collins; $0.5 from Painter; and $0.6 from Orlovsky

This year, the Colts are scheduled to get hit by PM's current contract at $17; $1.25 from Collins; $0.02MM from Painter; and $4.2 from Luck.

If the Colts release PM, and not pay the $28 option bonus, it will trigger a $10.4 hit to the cap ($26.4-$16)

[FireJimCaldwell]

Mark, you're mixing up real dollars and cap dollars.

What is shocker for 1000 Alex?

[UndecidedFrog]

What is shocker for 1000 Alex?

Cap accounting is a relatively simple concept to grasp. Why don't some people understand it?

[oldunclemark]

Mark, you're mixing up real dollars and cap dollars.

Real dollars:

Last year the Colts paid over $30MM to 4 QBs, of which $26.4MM went to PM and $4MM went to Collins.

This year, the Colts are scheduled under the current PM contract to pay PM $35.4MM ($28 option bonus + $7.4MM salary).

If we assume Luck gets Cam Newton's contract +5%, this will mean that the Colts will pay Luck this upcoming season $15.6MM (bonus + salary)

Cap dollars:

Last year the Colts got hit with $16 from PM; $2.75 from Collins; $0.5 from Painter; and $0.6 from Orlovsky

This year, the Colts are scheduled to get hit by PM's current contract at $17; $1.25 from Collins; $0.02MM from Painter; and $4.2 from Luck.

If the Colts release PM, and not pay the $28 option bonus, it will trigger a $10.4 hit to the cap ($26.4-$16)

Right......I was messing up the two types of books...

So if Peyton Manning tears up his present deal ..what ever he then gets paid is added onto the $10.4 hit

If he gets $5 mil...the cap hit is $15.4 mil, >

Luck's hit is $4.2 mil if he gets the 'Cam' deal, which he should.

So our QB Cap with Pey-Luck hit is over $20 mil this coming year....and its $14 mil with just Luck..

..and with that....we cant not resign Mathis, Wayne, Garcon and Saturday..becuase we have only about $33 mil in cap space

That's our problem...right?

[oldunclemark]

What is shocker for 1000 Alex?

Not everybody works for the Colts like you do FJC///

[oldunclemark]

Not everybody works for the Colts like you do FJC///

:whatever:

[Malakai432]

So the Colts don't have a need at quarterback?

Of course not, I say we draft Carson Wiggs (Kicker out of Purdue) in the first round. I also think we shouldn't sign Manning or even think about trading Luck. Dude we have Curtis Painter! He's the best. His 66 passer rating speaks for itself. I say we draft Carson in the first and, then maybe draft a special teams specialist in that 2nd and use him sparingly. Trade the rest of our picks for undrafted free agents if it's possible. Perhaps we could also get Bo Jackson to come back!!! Epic, if we do all that we are instant super bowl competitors.

[UndecidedFrog]

Right......I was messing up the two types of books...

So for cap dollars, if Peyton Manning tears up his present deal ..what ever he then gets paid is added onto the $10.4 hit

If he gets $5 mil...the cap hit is $15.4 mil, >

Luck's hit is $4.2 mil if he gets the 'Cam' deal, which he should.

So our QB Cap with Pey-Luck hit is over $20 mil this coming year if we assume a QB3 at league minimum ($15.4+ $4.2 +0.4)....and its $15.4 mil with just PM. $4.2MM is Luck, and $0.4MM is the QB3.

..and with that..it becomes very very difficult to re-sign we cant not resign Mathis, Wayne, Garcon and Saturday..becuase we have only about $33 mil in so much cap space

That's our problem...right?

Let me fix it up for you.

Yes, that is a problem.

[oldunclemark]

Let me fix it up for you.

Yes, that is a problem.

and.. we probably wont have a minimum QB

Danny O will draw more than the minimum....so we're over $20 mil...right....?

neither Danny or C-Painter make scale..although we could cut both.

But you've said there are options..

'one is to restructure Freeney's contract (if he's willing)///.which draws a $19 mil hit this year..

..anotehr question

You and others may have heard the GM of the NYGs on NFL Network and he said that he doesnt know who he'll resign yet because he did not know what the cap will be next year.

Why doesnt he know.

Are we all guessing.?

[UndecidedFrog]

and.. we probably wont have a minimum QB

Danny O will draw more than the minimum....so we're over $20 mil...right....?

neither Danny or C-Painter make scale..although we could cut both.

But you've said there are options..

'one is to restructure Freeney's contract (if he's willing)///.which draws a $19 mil hit this year..

If you want to keep Dan Orlovsky, you will probably have to offer his a little raise from what he got last season ($579K).

If you want to keep Painter, you will just have to pay him his salary ($565K), because he is already under contract.

If you don't want either, you don't have to cut Orlovsky, because he is not on contract anymore, but you will have to cut Painter and incur a minor acceleration of his bonus to hit the cap at $22K.

Yes, there are always options. Some more palatable than others. You can always cut or restructure contracts of other players to make cap room. Different people will make different decisions. I have accommodated several with their particular decisions in their mock caps already. Do you want to do one?

The point with restructuring contracts is that the player must agree to the terms. That is where the rubber hits the road. See the related thread on Garcon rejecting a 5-year $35MM deal. My mock cappers have Garcon re-signed for much less. They had to assume much less, otherwise they would be over their caps. Reality often sucks.

..anotehr question

You and others may have heard the GM of the NYGs on NFL Network and he said that he doesnt know who he'll resign yet because he did not know what the cap will be next year.

Why doesnt he know.

Are we all guessing.?

http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/

We are projecting the 2012 cap to be a 1% increase over 2011. The official cap numbers will be published by the NFL and provided to teams sometime soon.

Yes, we are guessing, but it is an educated guess.

The NYG GM has an idea. His team will be over the projected cap.

[subvet]

Let me fix it up for you.

Yes, that is a problem.

Hey froggie, how do you know all this? Or are you a number cruncher cleverly disguised as a fan????

[GoColts8818]

Of course not, I say we draft Carson Wiggs (Kicker out of Purdue) in the first round. I also think we shouldn't sign Manning or even think about trading Luck. Dude we have Curtis Painter! He's the best. His 66 passer rating speaks for itself. I say we draft Carson in the first and, then maybe draft a special teams specialist in that 2nd and use him sparingly. Trade the rest of our picks for undrafted free agents if it's possible. Perhaps we could also get Bo Jackson to come back!!! Epic, if we do all that we are instant super bowl competitors.

but McAfee wants to do everything when Adam retires

Also if we are getting anyone to come back it's Edge, so what if he's been out of the league for a few years put him behind any line and he'll be a star again just you watch! Heck we can just move Addai to QB and run the wildcat on every play we don't need a QB at all! Championship...

[Malakai432]

but McAfee wants to do everything when Adam retires

Also if we are getting anyone to come back it's Edge, so what if he's been out of the league for a few years put him behind any line and he'll be a star again just you watch! Heck we can just move Addai to QB and run the wildcat on every play we don't need a QB at all! Championship...

Love that idea!!!! I do agree let's get Edge back, move Addai to QB, perhaps we can use Pat as a WR. Then we can start talking about a dynasty.

[GoColts8818]

Love that idea!!!! I do agree let's get Edge back, move Addai to QB, perhaps we can use Pat as a WR. Then we can start talking about a dynasty.

While we are at it we'll just cut everyone the team and resign them all for vet minimun so we can sign every player we've ever heard for before that gets released by other teams for vet minimun of course! Why did we not think of this sooner...man I don't know how Polian got fired this GM thing is easy!

Also since we don't need a QB anymore we can trade the top pick for like 100 first round draft picks that we will of course nail every single one of while Luck and RG3 bust out of the league because you know they can't be any good if people who get paid to study them swears they are, those people are just wrong!

We'll have Peyton coach the team just to make sure this works of course. We don't really need him to but I think if he coaches the team that just means 19-0!

[Malakai432]

While we are at it we'll just cut everyone the team and resign them all for vet minimun so we can sign every player we've ever heard for before that gets released by other teams for vet minimun of course! Why did we not think of this sooner...man I don't know how Polian got fired this GM thing is easy!

Also since we don't need a QB anymore we can trade the top pick for like 100 first round draft picks that we will of course nail every single one of while Luck and RG3 bust out of the league because you know they can't be any good if people who get paid to study them swears they are, those people are just wrong!

We'll have Peyton coach the team just to make sure this works of course. We don't really need him to but I think if he coaches the team that just means 19-0!

Utterly brilliant!!! I wonder why the heck we aren't running this team, it has to be so simple. I really like the idea of acquiring 100 first round draft picks for either Luck or RGiii.

[UndecidedFrog]

Hey froggie, how do you know all this? Or are you a number cruncher cleverly disguised as a fan????

I am a number cruncher. It is part of what I do for a living.