I am hoping we trade up in the second round to get Perryman

[Superman]

ok, then it's for stockpiling at one position so that you can overload and then skip 31 picks to get lesser talent at the position you REALLY needed to fill.  That's it, that's what it's for.

 

Now you got it.

[Superman]

atleast RT could help us more. We all know there are more picks but if you look at Grigson track record of finding talented D players later in the draft you should know why everyone is * off. Who from later rounds has done much of anything for us besides maybe Newsome but he's still a ?

 

I understand why you think drafting for need is important. Ours is a fundamental disagreement that we'll probably never come to terms on. Set that aside.

 

My point is that you should stop acting like we can't draft good defensive players outside of the first round. I get that you don't like the pick. That doesn't mean you have to act like Rounds 2-8 are worthless.

[Colts_Fan12]

I understand why you think drafting for need is important. Ours is a fundamental disagreement that we'll probably never come to terms on. Set that aside.

My point is that you should stop acting like we can't draft good defensive players outside of the first round. I get that you don't like the pick. That doesn't mean you have to act like Rounds 2-8 are worthless.

I don't think they are worthless just Grigson has been very poor with late round defensive picks. why not get the more reliable players in the first half? Instead of hoping yet again for late rounders to help us. When our older players regress or retire we don't have much behind them cause all our late rounders either are gone or have become just average players

[Superman]

I don't think they are worthless just Grigson has been very poor with late round defensive picks. why not get the more reliable players in the first half? Instead of hoping yet again for late rounders to help us. When our older players regress or retire we don't have much behind them cause all our late rounders either are gone or have become just average players

 

Grigson hasn't drafted late round defensive players. Newsome is pretty much it, and he's pretty good. If you want to count Boyett, fine, but that's not a draft issue, that's a knucklehead issue. So I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.

 

But using that rationale -- however flawed I think it is -- then we could say that he shouldn't have drafted a defensive player in the first round because he's been poor with that (Werner). 

 

In reality, Grigson has never drafted a defensive player in Rounds 2-4. I think he should, because like you said, we need young defensive playmakers. That's the only way to get them. My pushback is against the idea that if we didn't do it in the first round, then it doesn't count and won't matter.

 

Look at some of the free agents people wanted: Searcy, 4th round; Houston, 3rd round; Knighton; 3rd round; McPhee, 5th round... etc. 

[Colts_Fan12]

Grigson hasn't drafted late round defensive players. Newsome is pretty much it, and he's pretty good. If you want to count Boyett, fine, but that's not a draft issue, that's a knucklehead issue. So I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.

But using that rationale -- however flawed I think it is -- then we could say that he shouldn't have drafted a defensive player in the first round because he's been poor with that (Werner).

In reality, Grigson has never drafted a defensive player in Rounds 2-4. I think he should, because like you said, we need young defensive playmakers. That's the only way to get them. My pushback is against the idea that if we didn't do it in the first round, then it doesn't count and won't matter.

Look at some of the free agents people wanted: Searcy, 4th round; Houston, 3rd round; Knighton; 3rd round; McPhee, 5th round... etc.

I know they can be found but its not as frequent to get real game changers in the 3-7 rounds

[Superman]

I know they can be found but its not as frequent to get real game changers in the 3-7 rounds

 

What about Round 2? We have a second round pick, don't we?

 

The talent difference between #29 and #61 in this year's draft isn't that great, if it exists at all. Kendricks is the only defensive "game changer" that was on the board, IMO, but I think he was probably the 6th best player left.

[Colts_Fan12]

What about Round 2? We have a second round pick, don't we?

The talent difference between #29 and #61 in this year's draft isn't that great, if it exists at all. Kendricks is the only defensive "game changer" that was on the board, IMO, but I think he was probably the 6th best player left.

I'm just not optimistic like everyone else I'd much rather have 2 possible stud defensive players then just the possible 1 in round 2. Hell if we went O line with pick 1 I wouldn't even be mad cause at least it's a weak area of the team and has been since Grigson got here. Guess I'd like to see our first rounder actually come in and help us day 1 unlike the past 2. Tell me how much playing time Dirsett sees no way he magically jumps TY Andre and I would hope not Moncreif since everyone has praised how good he can be. Now poor Carter won't even see the damn field so who knows what we got in him

[Superman]

I'm just not optimistic like everyone else I'd much rather have 2 possible stud defensive players then just the possible 1 in round 2. Hell if we went O line with pick 1 I wouldn't even be mad cause at least it's a weak area of the team and has been since Grigson got here. Guess I'd like to see our first rounder actually come in and help us day 1 unlike the past 2. Tell me how much playing time Dirsett sees no way he magically jumps TY Andre and I would hope not Moncreif since everyone has praised how good he can be. Now poor Carter won't even see the damn field so who knows what we got in him

 

Who cares about Carter? I'm kind of getting tired of hearing his name. He's the new Da'Rick Rogers, Mike Hart, Roy Hall, etc. I hope Carter does well, but relying on him would be a huge mistake.

 

And I'm a Moncrief fan, but Dorsett already is a better route runner, has better hands, and ironically high points the ball better and makes more plays in traffic, despite being 4 inches shorter. They'll likely play different positions and roles anyways, so I don't see them butting heads.

 

I said earlier, the difference is that you think teams should draft with need as the primary consideration, and I think teams should draft the best players they can. Need provides broad guidelines; it doesn't dictate how you set up your board. 

[Colts_Fan12]

Who cares about Carter? I'm kind of getting tired of hearing his name. He's the new Da'Rick Rogers, Mike Hart, Roy Hall, etc. I hope Carter does well, but relying on him would be a huge mistake.

And I'm a Moncrief fan, but Dorsett already is a better route runner, has better hands, and ironically high points the ball better and makes more plays in traffic, despite being 4 inches shorter. They'll likely play different positions and roles anyways, so I don't see them butting heads.

I said earlier, the difference is that you think teams should draft with need as the primary consideration, and I think teams should draft the best players they can. Need provides broad guidelines; it doesn't dictate how you set up your board.

I'm not saying reach for a need at a specific position tho. there are easily 4 positions on defense that could have been upgraded ILB CB S and DL all have a much better impact a d is a better BPA then a 6th option WR. Honestly are Eric Kendricks, Jalen Collins, Landon Collins and Jordan Phillips that big of reaches at 29?

[Superman]

I'm not saying reach for a need at a specific position tho. there are easily 4 positions on defense that could have been upgraded ILB CB S and DL all have a much better impact a d is a better BPA then a 6th option WR. Honestly are Eric Kendricks, Jalen Collins, Landon Collins and Jordan Phillips that big of reaches at 29?

 

You keep doing this. I feel like you're being disingenuous. Dorsett will be no worse than 4th on the depth chart. If someone gets hurt -- which has been a recurring theme for our offense since 2012 -- he'll move up.

 

I don't know how much of a reach those guys would be at #29. That's not really the question, though. If you have Dorsett rated as your 20th best player, for instance, and those players are, in order, 35 through 38, then there's a clear difference between him and them. Maybe they aren't drastic reaches, but you're passing on a better player. It's obvious what Grigson's board looked like. To him, Dorsett > all those guys.

 

You are saying reach for need at any of four specific positions. Grigson may as well have only scouted those positions.

[DougDew]

yeah to actually help the team not stack one position with 8 pro bowlers ther is only 1 ball

But our D will continue to blow but is ok cause we have 8 pro bowl WRs

Our receivers and TEs are not that special.

[Colts_Fan12]

You keep doing this. I feel like you're being disingenuous. Dorsett will be no worse than 4th on the depth chart. If someone gets hurt -- which has been a recurring theme for our offense since 2012 -- he'll move up.

I don't know how much of a reach those guys would be at #29. That's not really the question, though. If you have Dorsett rated as your 20th best player, for instance, and those players are, in order, 35 through 38, then there's a clear difference between him and them. Maybe they aren't drastic reaches, but you're passing on a better player. It's obvious what Grigson's board looked like. To him, Dorsett > all those guys.

You are saying reach for need at any of four specific positions. Grigson may as well have only scouted those positions.

I say 6th option cause he also has Allen and Fleener ahead of him. The way everyone is saying its ok cause he was BPA what if the BPA was a QB or TE would it be wise to take them? Why is WR any different we have talent already there just like at QB and TE am I right?

[Danfish98]

I'm not saying reach for a need at a specific position tho. there are easily 4 positions on defense that could have been upgraded ILB CB S and DL all have a much better impact a d is a better BPA then a 6th option WR. Honestly are Eric Kendricks, Jalen Collins, Landon Collins and Jordan Phillips that big of reaches at 29?

They aren't reaches, but the Colts didn't consider them the BPA. I don't think anyone truly believes purely in BPA though. If the best player on our board last night was a quarterback no one would expect us to take him, at least I hope not. Thus I think you have to combine need, difficulty of obtaining that position, and talent together to determine your pick. Every team does this to some extent. It's ultimately why so many quarterbacks are selected so early in the deaft. It's why the last 2 year no running backs were selected in the first round.

That is why I find Dorsett such an awful pick. Even if he's at the top of the board as far as talent, and seeing his highlight tapes and combine numbers it's reasonable that he was at the top of the board, it still makes no sense for the Colts to draft him there. Brown is sitting there as a stud run stopper. Dorsett is sitting there as a stud TY clone. I can't see how anyone wouldn't find it prudent to dig deeper than that and look at need, along with difficulty of obtaining a similar player in the future when evaluating who to pick. In my eyes a stud run stopping DT is far more difficult to find than a small, blazing fast WR. One of those we already have and he came from a third round pick. The other we've been looking for since the Goose left. Should have made this pick easy.

[Superman]

I say 6th option cause he also has Allen and Fleener ahead of him. The way everyone is saying its ok cause he was BPA what if the BPA was a QB or TE would it be wise to take them? Why is WR any different we have talent already there just like at QB and TE am I right?

 

No, you're wrong.

 

Need provides broad guidelines, it doesn't dictate how you set up your board. Broad guideline, based on need: We won't be drafting a QB in the first half of any draft any time soon. Doesn't that make sense? Do we have to keep using that ridiculous hypothetical? It's not hard to understand why it doesn't apply, unless you're just being sensational.

 

Other broad guidelines, determined more by positional value and skill set: RBs and TEs have to be special prospects to warrant a first round selection, given the usage and/or non-premium nature of the position. Interior OL need to be special in the first round. Tackles have to be able to pass block. DL typically need to be able to rush the passer in the first round. First round safeties have to be able to cover. Kickers and punters aren't worth more than a 6th round pick. 

 

It's not rocket science. If Grigson's board was telling him that a QB was BPA, we wouldn't have drafted a QB. That doesn't mean that every first rounder you draft has to play a position of immediate need. That's not what the draft is for. And beyond that, players drafted outside of the first round are capable of filling immediate needs. We all know who they are.

[Colts_Fan12]

No, you're wrong.

Need provides broad guidelines, it doesn't dictate how you set up your board. Broad guideline, based on need: We won't be drafting a QB in the first half of any draft any time soon. Doesn't that make sense? Do we have to keep using that ridiculous hypothetical? It's not hard to understand why it doesn't apply, unless you're just being sensational.

Other broad guidelines, determined more by positional value and skill set: RBs and TEs have to be special prospects to warrant a first round selection, given the usage and/or non-premium nature of the position. Interior OL need to be special in the first round. Tackles have to be able to pass block. DL typically need to be able to rush the passer in the first round. First round safeties have to be able to cover. Kickers and punters aren't worth more than a 6th round pick.

It's not rocket science. If Grigson's board was telling him that a QB was BPA, we wouldn't have drafted a QB. That doesn't mean that every first rounder you draft has to play a position of immediate need. That's not what the draft is for. And beyond that, players drafted outside of the first round are capable of filling immediate needs. We all know who they are.

I also don't see how WRs in the 1st is good drafting either when you have QB like Luck. If you improve the O line Luck could be just fine with 3-4 round recivers other teams with very good or elite QBs don't draft WRs in the first. NE and Seattle won the SB with low rounders and UDFAs at WR.

[Danfish98]

No, you're wrong.

Need provides broad guidelines, it doesn't dictate how you set up your board. Broad guideline, based on need: We won't be drafting a QB in the first half of any draft any time soon. Doesn't that make sense? Do we have to keep using that ridiculous hypothetical? It's not hard to understand why it doesn't apply, unless you're just being sensational.

Other broad guidelines, determined more by positional value and skill set: RBs and TEs have to be special prospects to warrant a first round selection, given the usage and/or non-premium nature of the position. Interior OL need to be special in the first round. Tackles have to be able to pass block. DL typically need to be able to rush the passer in the first round. First round safeties have to be able to cover. Kickers and punters aren't worth more than a 6th round pick.

It's not rocket science. If Grigson's board was telling him that a QB was BPA, we wouldn't have drafted a QB. That doesn't mean that every first rounder you draft has to play a position of immediate need. That's not what the draft is for. And beyond that, players drafted outside of the first round are capable of filling immediate needs. We all know who they are.

Question for you Superman. Do you like this pick or are you just playing devil's advocate? I think Dorsett will be a fantastic weapon. He'll be a blast to watch for several years and as a fan that's exciting. I also think it was a miserable pick for us. Watching the team get crushed by the Patriots again because we still can't stop the run while seeing fresh meat clogging up the middle on defense for them is going to be a tough pill to swallow for this fan.

[Superman]

I also don't see how WRs in the 1st is good drafting either when you have QB like Luck. If you improve the O line Luck could be just fine with 3-4 round recivers other teams with very good or elite QBs don't draft WRs in the first. NE and Seattle won the SB with low rounders and UDFAs at WR.

 

Seattle and New England are actually an example for how all this angst is overblown. Neither team started a 2014 or 2013 first rounder in the Super Bowl. Both teams started a 2nd rounder, the Seahawks an OT and the Pats a LB. 

 

As for first round receivers, I'm not saying that's a recipe for postseason success. It's not necessarily a detriment, though. What good teams do in the first round isn't what makes their teams so good. Actually, more critical than finding good players in the first round is finding top notch talent in later rounds. Jamie Collins is one of the Pats most important players. Bryan Stork started for them at the end of the season and helped stabilize the interior of their OL. I can do this for every good team in the league.

[John Waylon]

I'd rather see us trade up to get Collins.

[Superman]

Question for you Superman. Do you like this pick or are you just playing devil's advocate? I think Dorsett will be a fantastic weapon. He'll be a blast to watch for several years and as a fan that's exciting. I also think it was a miserable pick for us. Watching the team get crushed by the Patriots again because we still can't stop the run while seeing fresh meat clogging up the middle on defense for them is going to be a tough pill to swallow for this fan.

 

I said in another thread that I don't really like the pick, but that's conditional. Ideally, I wanted a trade, but that likely wasn't an option. Like you, I think Dorsett is going to be fantastic.

 

The truth is that I don't think about the Patriots matchup nearly as much as most people around here do. And when I do think about it, I think about poor scheming, poor execution and poor tackling more than I think about lack of talent. And when I think about what we need to do to win Super Bowls, I don't think about the Pats run game. Maybe I should, but I feel like they spent all their ammo last year, and I think they'll have a tough time with us moving forward. 

[BlueShoe]

San Diego just picked up a good football player. 

 

Damn.

[BlueShoe]

My top rated still on the board (within range and who fit us)

 

T.J. Clemmings

Eli Harold

Jordan Phillips

Jake Fisher

P.J. Williams

Ameer Abdullah

Tevin Coleman

Jay Ajayi

Michael Bennett

Ronald Darby

Senquez Golson

Lorenzo Mauldin

Trey Flowers

D'Joun Smith

Marcus Hardison

 

I am sure even with all of those options, I will still get it wrong though.