The Center position next year

[NewColtsFan]

HSH you and I agree on quite a few things but if you think LL outplayed Thornton last year then I would tell you that you are not looking at the correct things when evaluating guards.

 

I want to preface my comment with this....

 

I have great respect for your football knowledge.    I think you've forgotten more about line play than I know -- and I think I know a good amount.

 

But I'm not sure I'd agree with your view about Lance Louis and Hugh Thornton.    First, I don't think Thornton played all that much,  and when he did,  I don't think he played all that well.

 

And Louis started the last 6 games of the year.   The last 3 regular season games and the 3 playoff games.   And that's when our OL played it's best.     Clearly I don't have the grades for the two players,  but I wouldn't bet that Thornton graded out higher than Louis.    I thought he played pretty decently.

[cbear]

If the Colts ran things like a lot of people on this thread want then the Colts would have a bad oline for years (I know many will claim that they have had a bad line for years but I'm will just look at the Grigs era).  One, the constant, the need to upgrade positions is ridiculous, players need time to improve and to gel and if you keep making wholesale changes every year (two or more positions) things will never get any better.  Players can and do improve... of course the flip side of that is you have to give young players a chance to improve and significant improvement only happens when they play in the games.  Practice is good and important but you don't become a seasoned vet by practicing.  People say they want a line like Dallas well guess what... Dallas built their line through the draft and they were patient with their draft picks.  They let T. Smith takes his lumps on his way to becoming a Top 10 LT, they have drafted well and let the players develop, they did not get their 2014 oline by signing free agents to "upgrade" positions.

 

Let the players develop:

 

AC is easily a top 10 LT and arguably a top 5 and keeps improving

 

Mewhort played as well as any rookie guard in the league this year and he improved through out the year so it only stands to reason he will improve moving into year 2.  

 

Holmes:  Comes in at center and all of a sudden the entire line plays better... That is not a coincidence people.

 

Thornton:  One of the most athletic guards I have seen in a Colts uniform since Jake Scott.  I think his problems are conditioning but early in games he dominates at the guard spot.

 

GC:  Played well early in the season and last year unfortunately has a degenerative knee injury and will probably no be able to get back to his 2013 form.

 

Draft a RT and let the draftee and U. John battle it out for the position.  Take the lumps in 2015 and then by 2016 the Colts will have a top 5 oline.

 

I'm glad AC got some props.  I also believe he is one of the best LT in the game period and is vastly underrated.  I love watching Oline play and often will re-watch games just watching each lineman except AC because it's so repetitive watching him.  Almost like driving it down the middle every hole.  Boring to watch!  IMO, he made his big improvement when he learned to stop dropping his head just before contact.  

 

I'm not as big a fan of Thornton as you are.  I think he just doesn't seem to work well with the line in general, though as an individual player, he's superior to any guard we have.  Maybe it's lack of smarts or instinct, but the line just doesn't play as well with him in there.  

 

Holmes has potential.  IMO he still ends up on his butt way too much, but again looking at the line as a whole, it just plays better with him in there.  For whatever reason, he and Louis seem to click.  The whole being better than the sum of it's parts in that case.

[BlueCollarColts]

Whoever improves the most this off-season should start.

[NewColtsFan]

People who want Holmes to start at center must really hate running the ball. You're all a bunch of OUMs!!!

 

OUMs???

 

Which stands for......

[NewColtsFan]

I don't know why people here continue to judge players like Holmes and Thornton on such a small sample size.

 

Whatever they are now,  the team expects they will be better this year and next.   There is room for improvement.

 

I expect Holmes and Thornton to be part of our future....

[NewColtsFan]

Holmes can not stay healthy I would bet big $$ he doesn't make it to week 1 history will tell you all you need to know If he's the plan we are a revolving door at C.

 

You know I love you akcolt,  but you just turned 4 sentences into one incredibly long sentence.  So, here it is the way you wanted to present it....

 

 

Holmes can not stay healthy.    I would bet big $$ he doesn't make it to week 1.   History will tell you all you need to know If he's the plan.   We are a revolving door at C.

 

 

Sorry,  but the Grammar Nazi has struck again!    

 

(And just like that.....   he's gone!)    

[Gavin]

HSH you and I agree on quite a few things but if you think LL outplayed Thornton last year then I would tell you that you are not looking at the correct things when evaluating guards.

The only thing I can think to add is to your above comments about film study, asking all the right questions and working hard in practice and so on and so forth is this....No question a player needs to be able to do all of that BUT at some point all of that is simply not enough if it don't translate to game day...Its like Allen Iversons practice rant years ago "Practice...were talking about practice"......you can be the worst practice player in the world but if you come out and turn it on on game day then that trumps practice...It also works the other way around...you can be the best practice player around and ask all the right questions but if it don't translate to game day then your days are just numbered

[Gavin]

I don't know why people here continue to judge players like Holmes and Thornton on such a small sample size.

 

Whatever they are now,  the team expects they will be better this year and next.   There is room for improvement.

 

I expect Holmes and Thornton to be part of our future....

The thing is.....Holmes and Thornton are judged after every game...and again at the end of the year....Thornton is really going into a pivotal year this being his 3rd year

[ace_6900]

I personaly would like to go after Rodney Hudson from Kansas City, but if we cannot get him i would draft a center in the 2nd round. Shipler, Holmes, and Harrison just do not  impress me much.

[Dark Superman]

My guess is the Colts are just going to stick with Holmes.. Something they should of did last year.

[NewColtsFan]

The thing is.....Holmes and Thornton are judged after every game...and again at the end of the year....Thornton is really going into a pivotal year this being his 3rd year

 

The thing is...  EVERY football player are judged after every game, and again at the end of the year.   This is not unique to anyone.

 

And I'm well aware that Thornton is in a critical year here.   He has to show (A) improvement and (B) that he can stay healthy.   I'd also like him to lose 10 pounds,  but that may be just me.

 

But I think fans -- by nature -- are impatient.   They want near perfect football players from the moment those players step on the field.    That almost never happens.   Players need time to develop and mature -- even Andrew Luck.

 

This is a hard time.   Deciding on how good a player is so early in a career is not in anyone's best interest.

[rock8591]

IMO Thornton was better than Louis, but injuries limited him in his 2nd year. If he loses some weight, gets down to 320-325 lbs, there's a lota good potential there that's just waiting to be unleashed.

[akcolt]

My guess is the Colts are just going to stick with Holmes.. Something they should of did last year.

He couldn't stay healthy the coaches said the guy can't stay off the trainers table. I really hope the plan is not to hope somehow Holmes stays healthy this year. He has never made it to week one.

[Colts_Fan12]

Harrison is just so damn strong I hope he improves more and wins the job that power is what we need on our line!!

[Coffeedrinker]

He couldn't stay healthy the coaches said the guy can't stay off the trainers table. I really hope the plan is not to hope somehow Holmes stays healthy this year. He has never made it to week one.

I bet you were saying similar things about Toler after the 2013... something along the lines of Toler can't stay healthy, the Colts won't be able to depend on him, etc.  Then in 2014 Toler plays the 3rd most defensive snaps on the team

[NewColtsFan]

He couldn't stay healthy the coaches said the guy can't stay off the trainers table. I really hope the plan is not to hope somehow Holmes stays healthy this year. He has never made it to week one.

 

I think you're misreading some things.     He couldn't stay out of the trainers room is not exactly like "he couldn't stay healthy"...

 

The coaches are saying "What you have is not enough to have you IN the trainers room so much.   You should be outside practicing with this injury."  

 

Some players get that way early in their career.   They get a little overwhelmed by the NFL.   Perhaps Holmes is one of them.

 

But he started the last 6 games in a row.   Started 7 out of 9 this season.     I hope that's a good starting point for next year.

 

In short,  I hope Holmes has figured out how to play with smaller injuries and will now be out of the trainers room far more than he's in.

 

That's the hope at least.....

[akcolt]

I think you're misreading some things.     He couldn't stay out of the trainers room is not exactly like "he couldn't stay healthy"...

 

The coaches are saying "What you have is not enough to have you IN the trainers room so much.   You should be outside practicing with this injury."  

 

Some players get that way early in their career.   They get a little overwhelmed by the NFL.   Perhaps Holmes is one of them.

 

But he started the last 6 games in a row.   Started 7 out of 9 this season.     I hope that's a good starting point for next year.

 

In short,  I hope Holmes has figured out how to play with smaller injuries and will now be out of the trainers room far more than he's in.

 

That's the hope at least.....

I hope so too. I think the kid can play. I am just saying in my experience the easiest way to predict the future is to look at the past.

 

There was questioning of his desire and length of time it took for him to heal. If you remember the training staff initially thought he had a shot at week 1. When did he finally become active week 12? That is like 15 weeks to heal up from an ankle sprain? I didn't bother looking week 12 was a guess but I know it wasn't anytime soon.

 

I question his heart and think it is a huge risk to count on him as the starting C been there done that. I guess we can always hope. Again I hate to sound like negative nancy but I would bet you that he doesn't make it to week one. He's 0 for 2 and the ankle problems started in college and  people questioning his commitment to the game started in college. You can find the same thing other places just not that interested in putting that much effort in Holmes.

 

http://coltfreaks.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=840

[akcolt]

I bet you were saying similar things about Toler after the 2013... something along the lines of Toler can't stay healthy, the Colts won't be able to depend on him, etc.  Then in 2014 Toler plays the 3rd most defensive snaps on the team

Actually I have always been in Toler's corner and said we are a better team when he is on the field and he is judged harshly on this forum. I am fan of Greg's not so much Holmes.

[pgt_rob]

We could try Stefen Wisniewski in free agency.

[Coffeedrinker]

I hope so too. I think the kid can play. I am just saying in my experience the easiest way to predict the future is to look at the past.

 

There was questioning of his desire and length of time it took for him to heal. If you remember the training staff initially thought he had a shot at week 1. When did he finally become active week 12? That is like 15 weeks to heal up from an ankle sprain? I didn't bother looking week 12 was a guess but I know it wasn't anytime soon.

 

I question his heart and think it is a huge risk to count on him as the starting C been there done that. I guess we can always hope. Again I hate to sound like negative nancy but I would bet you that he doesn't make it to week one. He's 0 for 2 and the ankle problems started in college and  people questioning his commitment to the game started in college. You can find the same thing other places just not that interested in putting that much effort in Holmes.

 

http://coltfreaks.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=840

He seems to have decided he is committed to football and the NFL

 

http://grantland.com/features/lecharles-bentley-nfl-offensive-lineman-school-larry-warford-chance-warmack-geoff-schwartz/

 

"On two of the chairs of the facility’s main entryway, Willie Colon and Khaled Holmes are contemplating the existence of Bigfoot. They’re both getting their post-workout IVs, and the TV is tuned to a show about ghost hunters; no one knows where the remote is."

 

Most of the article is about Bentley's camp.... a player does not go to a place like that unless they are committed.

[Coffeedrinker]

Actually I have always been in Toler's corner and said we are a better team when he is on the field and he is judged harshly on this forum. I am fan of Greg's not so much Holmes.

I didn't say anything about if you were a fan of Toler or not.  Just I bet you were saying the same things about how he can't be relied upon because of his injuries.

[NewColtsFan]

I hope so too. I think the kid can play. I am just saying in my experience the easiest way to predict the future is to look at the past.

 

There was questioning of his desire and length of time it took for him to heal. If you remember the training staff initially thought he had a shot at week 1. When did he finally become active week 12? That is like 15 weeks to heal up from an ankle sprain? I didn't bother looking week 12 was a guess but I know it wasn't anytime soon.

 

I question his heart and think it is a huge risk to count on him as the starting C been there done that. I guess we can always hope. Again I hate to sound like negative nancy but I would bet you that he doesn't make it to week one. He's 0 for 2 and the ankle problems started in college and  people questioning his commitment to the game started in college. You can find the same thing other places just not that interested in putting that much effort in Holmes.

 

http://coltfreaks.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=840

 

I don't think the reason he didn't start until week 15 was the ankle.

 

I think he was long past the ankle by then.   (Though maybe not)

 

I think he had other nagging issues that were viewed by the staff as minor.    The staff kept a tight lid on things,  little information got out,  but that's my read.    I don't chalk up his issues to the pre-season ankle injury....  I think there were other dents and dings.

 

He played badly hurt for USC.   Had a bad high ankle sprain.   So, he'll play hurt and I think he's got heart.   My hunch is he got a little overwhelmed by the NFL.

 

Further,  I think now that he's played,  now that's he's jumped into the deep end of the swimming pool and gotten completely wet,  my hunch is he now knows he can play on this level and not get embarrassed.   He can play with the Big Boys.

 

My hope is that we'll see less of Holmes being injured and far more of Holmes being the leader of the OL as many centers are.

 

That's my hope.....

[akcolt]

I didn't say anything about if you were a fan of Toler or not.  Just I bet you were saying the same things about how he can't be relied upon because of his injuries.

My thought with Toler was either the coaching staff or Toler always rushed him back before he was totally healed. He had groin and hamstring problems. You can't rush back from those type injuries especially the groin example 2yrs ago in the playoffs dude could barely run but he still tried to give it a go.  

 

Word from our own coaching staff is that Holmes spends too much time on the training table. I hope Holmes has dedicated himself to the game. I just would rather see it than hope for it. Last year doesn't leave me optimistic.

[akcolt]

I don't think the reason he didn't start until week 15 was the ankle.

 

I think he was long past the ankle by then.   (Though maybe not)

 

I think he had other nagging issues that were viewed by the staff as minor.    The staff kept a tight lid on things,  little information got out,  but that's my read.    I don't chalk up his issues to the pre-season ankle injury....  I think there were other dents and dings.

 

He played badly hurt for USC.   Had a bad high ankle sprain.   So, he'll play hurt and I think he's got heart.   My hunch is he got a little overwhelmed by the NFL.

 

Further,  I think now that he's played,  now that's he's jumped into the deep end of the swimming pool and gotten completely wet,  my hunch is he now knows he can play on this level and not get embarrassed.   He can play with the Big Boys.

 

My hope is that we'll see less of Holmes being injured and far more of Holmes being the leader of the OL as many centers are.

 

That's my hope.....

And I hope you are right if we stick with him. Hopefully the coaches have a very good read on that situation, I am not anti Holmes I would love for him to be the man, It is just difficult to see it from my view. It will be very frustrating to still be dealing with the C position again this year especially if Wis. is there for the taking on a good deal.

[BOTT]

I hope so too. I think the kid can play. I am just saying in my experience the easiest way to predict the future is to look at the past.

 

There was questioning of his desire and length of time it took for him to heal. If you remember the training staff initially thought he had a shot at week 1. When did he finally become active week 12? That is like 15 weeks to heal up from an ankle sprain? I didn't bother looking week 12 was a guess but I know it wasn't anytime soon.

 

I question his heart and think it is a huge risk to count on him as the starting C been there done that. I guess we can always hope. Again I hate to sound like negative nancy but I would bet you that he doesn't make it to week one. He's 0 for 2 and the ankle problems started in college and  people questioning his commitment to the game started in college. You can find the same thing other places just not that interested in putting that much effort in Holmes.

 

http://coltfreaks.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=840

They probably found out he plays the cello. That could be scary for some meathead coaches lol

[Dark Superman]

He couldn't stay healthy the coaches said the guy can't stay off the trainers table. I really hope the plan is not to hope somehow Holmes stays healthy this year. He has never made it to week one.

I think he surprises a lot of people this year.

[akcolt]

I hope so we could use a surprise on the Oline.

[Coffeedrinker]

I think he surprises a lot of people this year.

Me too.  Also I don't think a player would put himself through an off season program like Bentley's unless he's dedicated himself to improving and being one of the best.

 

As a fan this is the type of dedication and commitment to improving that I like to see.

 

Here is what Suggs said about the training camp in an ESPN article

 

 

 

 

As Suggs put in his time, another group of players worked near him. Suggs noticed they were all offensive linemen, as he said, "getting after it."

"I didn't agree with it," the Baltimore Ravens pass-rusher said recently. "I don't agree with offensive linemen getting better."

That group was the membership of a unique but growing fraternity in the NFL. They are the guys who take part in LB O-Line Performance, a year-round program tailored specifically to offensive linemen and run by former NFL lineman LeCharles Bentley, a two-time Pro Bowler.

Suggs said he would wander over to the linemen as they worked to try to discourage them. He left shaking his head at what he saw.

"You don't see offensive linemen training like these guys do," Suggs said. "They do some things that I question I could do